Lords Sitting of 6 June 1940

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
WEY VALLEY WATER BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: the Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

DRAFT SUPPLEMENTARY PENSIONS (DETERMINATION OF NEED AND ASSESSMENT OF NEEDS) REGULATIONS, 1940.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, is reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MOTOR VEHICLES (GAS-PROELLED VEHICLES) (VARIATION OF SPEED LIMIT) REGULATIONS, 1940.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (LORD TRYON): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(Lord Tryon.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CONFIRMATION OF EXECUTORS (WAR SERVICE) (SCOTLAND) BILL, [H.L.]
LORD ALNESS: My Lords, I beg leave to present a Bill to provide facilities in Scotland for the appointment and confirmation of executors of persons engaged in war service during the present war, and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(Lord Alness.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

POOR'S ALLOTMENTS IN HORNSEY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
SUPERANNUATION SCHEMES (WAR SERVICE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
POST OFFICE AND TELEGRAPH BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LITTLESTONE- ON-SEA AND DISTRICT WATER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (THIRSK DISTRICT WATER) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
NATIONAL SERVICE (CHANNEL ISLANDS) BILL, [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

A SECRET SESSION.
4.5 p.m.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, in asking the noble Viscount the Leader of the House about the business for next week, perhaps I may be allowed to say that it

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has been represented to me by many of my friends that we should like an opportunity of discussing, without the embarrassment of being reported publicly, questions affecting the efficiency of home defence and allied topics, and I am quite sure that the noble Viscount will give us an opportunity. It ought to be a useful discussion. At all events it is a topic which, for obvious reasons, none of us would feel free to discuss in public, and I hope that in announcing the business for next week the noble Viscount will be able to give us this opportunity.
4.6 p.m.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Crewe is unable to be present to-day and has asked me to speak, after consultation with my noble friends and with him, in support of this proposal. I can well understand that there may be different views as to the propriety of holding a Secret Session to discuss questions of high strategy or perhaps some big question of criticism, but I think there can be no doubt—and my noble friends sitting in this quarter of the House, so far as I have been able to consult them, are unanimously agreed with me—that, in a matter like home defence, it would be far better that we should be able to take counsel together without the embarrassment of having to question whether we were or were not saying something which would be slightly embarrassing to the Government. I have no hesitation myself in supporting the proposal made by the noble Lord, Lord Addison—whom I may be allowed to congratulate on this, the first occasion on which he leads the Opposition. I think the Government might well agree to the proposal.
4.7 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am not particularly in favour of Secret Sessions, but I do think that perhaps in reference to this question of home defence there is a great deal to be said for one. There is a great deal which might be properly said in private which it would be difficult to say in public. I think perhaps your Lordships must not expect too much from this Secret Session, but above everything it is necessary to avoid giving the impression that members of your Lordships' House have something to say which they are not allowed to say
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by their sense of public duty, and have a feeling therefore of suffering under a disability which members of another place have not to undergo. In those circumstances it would be better to have the Secret Session, so that any noble Lord who feels that he has something to say upon the subject of home defence which it would be better not to say in public may have his opportunity. For this reason I think probably those of your Lordships who sit on this side of the House will be willing to accept the proposal for a Secret Session.
4.8 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord opposite for having given me notice that he proposed to make this suggestion to your Lordships this afternoon, and I have had an opportunity therefore of considering the suggestion. As I gather that it will be in accordance with your Lordships' wishes in all parts of the House, I shall be very happy to fall in with the suggested arrangement, and I should therefore propose, if it meets your Lordships' view, to put down a Motion in my own name providing that the sitting of the House on Tuesday next—which is the day on which I suggest we should sit for that purpose—be secret as far as regards a debate on home defence. That is to say I would put down the Motion unless the noble Lord opposite would prefer—
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The Motion should be in the name of the Government of course.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: Yes, the Motion will be in my name on behalf of the Government, providing for a Secret Session for the purpose mentioned by the noble Lord opposite. The House, I suggest, should sit at three o'clock.
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, might I ask a further question before the matter is disposed of? The noble Viscount will be aware that the other House is sitting in secret on Tuesday. There are fairly obvious reasons why some noble Lords perhaps might wish to listen to the debate there, and therefore it might be better for us to have our debate on Wednesday. Would that be possible?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I am not sure about the business for Wednesday.

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So far as I am concerned it would certainly be possible, and if your Lordships think that this House would desire to be free for its members to attend in another place, that is a matter for your Lordships, but I should have thought that your Lordships would prefer to make your own arrangements to suit your Lordships' convenience. But I am quite happy to arrange it in accordance with the general wish, either for Tuesday or Wednesday, if the noble Lord opposite will indicate his preference.
LORD ADDISON: I have no strong preference, but it has been represented to me that some of your Lordships might wish to go to the other House on Tuesday.
4.10 p.m.
LORD MOTTISTONE: My Lords, perhaps the noble Viscount and the Leader of the Opposition will consult with one another on the point. It has come before us rather suddenly. One can see convenience in having Secret Sessions on the same day, but of course there are drawbacks. On the subject of secret and other Sessions, perhaps I may take the opportunity to say to the noble Viscount that the system of passes just introduced, devised as it is to prevent unauthorised persons from attending debates, does seem to me most unwise. The distinguished head of the Secret Service in France, at the end of the last war, told me that the trouble he had in preventing unauthorised persons from getting into Government offices and the Chamber was entirely due to the system of passes, because, as he pointed out, anyone can fake a pass, but it is extremely difficult to fake a face. If I may lake the case of the noble Viscount opposite, I can imagine that there are 10,000 people who could fake his pass, but there is not an individual in the whole wide world who bears the remotest resemblance to him. The real safeguard is not to have a card bearing the name "Caldecote," which the noble Viscount may drop in the street, but to rely upon people who know us all. There are a great many who know us and all about us. From the point of view of giving greater security, I submit that point to the authorities of the House.
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As I look round your Lordships' House, I am convinced that nobody could fake your faces, but anyone could fake your passes. I suggest that the Leader of the Opposition and the noble Viscount might decide in consultation regarding this particular Session.
4.13 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, this discussion is rather irregular, and I have already had the honour of addressing your Lordships, but perhaps I may be pardoned for adding one word more. There is a good deal to be said for the Wednesday, rather than the Tuesday, as the day for our discussion. I am aware that there are on the Paper for Wednesday Motions in the names of noble Lords which might have to be displaced, but, generally speaking, noble Lords are very patriotic in these matters and are willing to give way when good cause can be shown.
Under the arrangements which are made, your Lordships will have the advantage, if you please, of being in your Lordships' Gallery in the House of Commons and of being privy to what passes there in the Secret Session on Tuesday. Probably your Lordships will feel better able to discuss matters in this House if you have been made aware of what has passed in another place on Tuesday. It would be a more fruitful discussion if the Sessions did not take place on the same day. I do not wish to give myself any privilege of dictating to the noble Viscount, but I suggest that it might be worth while reconsidering the matter.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, as I gather from my noble friend and the noble Lord opposite that Wednesday would be the better day in your Lordships' judgment, I shall be happy so to arrange it. With regard to the matter raised by the noble Lord, Lord Mottistone, in spite of idiosyncracies I was asked for my pass and was fortunately able to produce it, and I hope the noble Lord has suffered no inconvenience.
House adjourned at a quarter past four o'clock.