HL Deb 10 July 1940 vol 116 cc855-62

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1 [Compensation Fund]:

LORD WRIGHT

The first Amendment on the Paper is a purely drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 23, after ("and") insert ("the provisions of").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next Amendment is also a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 24, after ("Act") insert ("other than paragraph 5 and sub-paragraphs (2) and (5) of paragraph 4 thereof").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 [Reduction of stamp duties on practising certificates]:

LORD WRIGHT moved to omit Clause 2. The noble and learned Lord said: This clause provides for the reduction of the Stamp Duty payable by solicitors on their practising certificates. The Treasury are not willing to agree to that reduction and, that being so, the Law Society feel that they must drop the proposal. Therefore I move that the clause be omitted.

Amendment moved— Page 4, leave out Clause 2.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3:

Delivery of accountant's certificates to Registrar.

3.—(1) Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section every solicitor shall once in each practice year deliver to the Registrar a certificate signed by an accountant and complying with the provisions of this section (which certificate is in this section referred to as "an accountant's certificate").

(2) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to a solicitor who satisfies the Council that the delivery of an accountant's certificate is impracticable.

LORD WRIGHT

The first Amendment to this clause is a drafting Amendment in subsection (2). I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 24, after ("that") insert ("owing to the circumstances of his case")—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next Amendment on the Paper is to substitute the word "unnecessary" for "impracticable." The word "impracticable" is obscure and the word "unnecessary" will better meet the circumstances, because the Law Society in certain cases may relieve a solicitor from delivering accounts if they think it unnecessary.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 25, leave out ("impracticable") and insert ("unnecessary").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next Amendment is exactly the same.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 17, leave out ("impracticable") and insert ("unnecessary").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 4 to 10 agreed to.

Clause 11 [Discretion of Registrar in special cases to refuse practising certificate or issue same subject to terms and conditions]:

LORD WRIGHT

In this clause there was a clerical error, the word "ten"—["Section ten"]—being put instead of the word "thirteen." It is proposed after the word "thirteen" to add a short description of Section 13 which is referred to by the word "thirteen." I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 19, leave out ("ten") and insert ("thirteen (effect and termination of suspension and notification of suspension or of termination thereof)").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 12 to 16 agreed to.

Clause 17 [Provisions as to clerk found party to misconduct of solicitor]:

LORD WRIGHT moved, at the beginning of the clause, to insert: (1) (a) Where a person who is or was a clerk to a solicitor but is not himself a solicitor has been convicted of larceny, embezzlement, fraudulent conversion or any other criminal offence in respect of any money or property belonging to or held or controlled by the solicitor by whom he is or was employed or any client of such solicitor; or

The noble and learned Lord said: This clause deals with cases in which the Law Society are empowered to refuse consent or to prohibit solicitors from employing particular individuals who have been guilty of offences in connection with other solicitors who have been employing them. As the Bill was drafted Clause 17 only referred to cases in which clerks employed by solicitors had been found guilty of offences in the course of proceedings before the Disciplinary Committee. In those cases the Law Society were empowered to say that other solicitors should not employ those clerks without their consent, subject to an appeal. The proposed Amendment extends that by making the provision apply to cases where the offending party has been convicted of certain offences—larceny, embezzlement and so on— in respect of any money or property belonging to or held or controlled by the solicitor by whom he is or was employed, or any client of such solicitor. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 16, line 29, at beginning insert the said new words.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next three Amendments are drafting Amendments. I beg leave to move them en bloc.

Amendments moved—

Page 16, line 29, leave out ("(1)") and insert ("(b)")

Page 16, line 30, leave out ("(a)") and insert ("(i)")

Page 16, line 33, leave out ("(b)") and insert ("(ii)").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 18 and 19 agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT moved, after Clause 19, to insert the following new clause—

"Minimum charges.

. For the removal of doubt it is hereby declared that Section one of the Solicitors Act 1933 (which requires the Council to make rules, subject to approval by the Master of the Rolls, as to the keeping of books of account and banking accounts and empowers them to make rules, subject to such approval as aforesaid for regulating in respect of any other matter the professional practice, conduct and discipline of solicitors) shall be deemed to empower and always to have empowered the Council, subject to such approval as aforesaid, and notwithstanding the provisions of Sections fifty-seven, fifty-nine and sixty of the principal Act, to make rules fixing or providing for the fixing, either generally or for particular areas, of scales of minimum charges to be made by solicitors not exceeding in respect of contentious business the charges prescribed by Rules of Court and in respect of non-contentious business the charges prescribed by orders under Section fifty-six of the principal Act and to make provision for securing the observance and preventing the evasion of such scales: Provided that any such rules shall not apply to any business which a solicitor, solely from charitable motives, undertakes to conduct free of charge, or to any business specially excepted by such rules."

The noble and learned Lord said: The new clause which I now move deals with what is called undercutting by solicitors and the object of the proposed new clause is to enable the Law Society—or to remove doubts that they have the power already—to specify minimum rates of charges made by solicitors. The Amendment speaks for itself. It is intended to meet what has been long felt to be a very serious evil among solicitors—namely, undue reduction in charges. In that way it has met with the approval of the great body of solicitors. A circular sent out to 17,000 solicitors elicited only 390 letters objecting to it. I beg to move that the clause become part of the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 19, line 7, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 20 to 29 agreed to.

Clause 30 [Interpretation]:

LORD WRIGHT moved to insert: The expressions 'trust' and 'trustee' extend to implied and constructive trusts and to cases where the trustee has a beneficial interest in the trust property, and to the duties incident to the office of a personal representative, and 'trustee', where the context admits, includes a personal representative.

The noble and learned Lord said: The Amendment proposes the addition of a new definition of "trust" and "trustee," words which occur in the Bill but have not so far been denned. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 23, line 13, at end insert the said new words.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

First Schedule [Provisions with regard to the formation, administration and application of the Compensation Fund and matters connected therewith]:

LORD WRIGHT

I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 17, after ("production") insert ("or delivery to any person appointed by the Council").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next is merely a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 18, after ("Council and") insert ("may").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The object of the next Amendment is to provide for a more extensive examination of documents and accounts than those of which the Council can at present claim inspection and delivery.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 18, after ("of all") insert ("deeds, wills, securities, papers").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The words in the next Amendment explain themselves. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 19, after ("documents") insert ("in the possession or control").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 25, line 23, leave out sub-paragraph (2) and insert: ("(2) If any person having possession or control of any such deeds, wills, securities, papers, books of account, records, vouchers or documents, refuses or fails forthwith after being required by the Council so to do to produce or deliver the same, or cause the same to be produced or delivered, in manner aforesaid, such person shall upon summary conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds and the Council may apply to the High Court or a Judge thereof for an order and the Court or a Judge thereof may on such application make an order upon such person to produce or deliver the same or cause the same to be produced or delivered in manner aforesaid within such time as the Court or a Judge thereof may order.")—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The same words are here to be inserted for the same purpose. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 30, after ("any such") insert ("deeds, wills, securities, papers").—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT

The next Amendment is to enable the Council, in the event of their having documents in their possession, to find out to whom they belong. I beg to move.

Amendment moved—

Page 26, line 6, at end insert— ("(6) If no application shall be made to a Judge of the High Court in accordance with the last preceding sub-paragraph or if the Judge to whom such an application is made shall direct that the deeds, wills, securities, papers, books of account, records, vouchers or other documents, shall remain in the custody or control of the Council, the Council may make inquiries to ascertain the person or persons to whom the same belong and may deal with the same in accordance with the directions of such person or persons. (7) In this paragraph the expression 'securities' means documents constituting or evidencing the title to any property.")—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD WRIGHT moved to insert at the end of the Schedule: 6. Every application to a Judge of the High Court in Chambers under sub-paragraph (5) of paragraph 4 of this Schedule and every application to the High Court or a Judge thereof under sub- paragraph (2) of paragraph 4 or under paragraph 5 of this Schedule shall be made in such form and heard in such manner as may be prescribed by regulations made from time to time by the Master of the Rolls with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice or (in the case of difference) of one of them.

The noble and learned Lord said: This Amendment is intended to enable the Council to apply in certain cases to the High Court for an Order subject to Regulations to be made by the Master of the Rolls with the concurrence of the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Justice or either of them. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 14, insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Wright.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedules agreed to.

4.18 p.m.

LORD WRIGHT

I beg to move that the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House.

Moved, That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House.—(Lord Wright.)

LORD ADDISON

I am sure we all feel that this Bill should commend itself to the House, because the noble and learned Lord is in charge of it, and anything of which he is in charge we should, I am sure, be disposed to receive sympathetically. It would, however, be interesting to be informed whether His Majesty's Government have any view on this Bill, which appears to be very popular with the legal profession—as is perhaps not surprising. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord Chancellor will tell us whether the Government have any views on this Bill, which seems, as far as one can understand it, to be very far-reaching.

4.19 p.m.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SIMON)

On the Second Reading of the Bill I intervened and stated that although this Bill is, of course, put forward by a private member of the House and is desired by the Law Society, it has appeared to His Majesty's Government to be a Bill which should receive the support of the House and which we hope will be passed into law. I made one exception, which concerned Clause 2. This clause would have provided that the amount of revenue received from solicitors as a condition of their being allowed to practise should be reduced in order to make some small contribution to the Fund, which they are engaged in raising amongst themselves. I objected to that, as being quite contrary to the sound principles of public finance. My noble and learned friend Lord Wright recognised the force of that criticism—he had already done so—and he has in the course of the proceedings of the Committee stage removed Clause 2 entirely from the Bill. That being so, I conceive it to be a very useful measure. It is an attempt by a most important body of professional men to secure more completely the examination of the accounts of any practising solicitor by periodic report by an accountant. At the same time, it is a proposal to institute a fund, provided by the solicitors themselves, in order that there may be, to the extent of that fund, an opportunity of compensating those who have the misfortune to lose their money through the defalcations of some undesirable member of the profession. I think that the effort which the general body of solicitors is making for this purpose is in every respect to be commended, and I hope that your Lordships will give your support to this measure until it reaches the Statute Book.

4.21 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI

We are most obliged to the noble and learned Lord Chancellor, and we all remember his eloquent words on the Second Reading, which he has been good enough to repeat to-day; but what my noble friends and I are anxious to know is whether these far-reaching Amendments are agreed Amendments and have the approval of the Law Officers.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am sorry if I misunderstood the position. I can reply by saying that my noble and learned friend showed me these proposed Amendments and we went through them together; and the view I formed was that they are Amendments which should be made in the Bill. I think that the Bill as now altered should still receive—if I may venture to offer that advice—the support of your Lordships' House.

On Question, Motion agreed to.