HL Deb 09 July 1940 vol 116 cc806-21

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Lloyd.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Schemes for Colonial development and welfare.

1.—(1) The Secretary of State, with the concurrence of the Treasury, may make schemes for any purpose likely to promote the development of the resources of any Colony or the welfare of its people, and any sums required by the Secretary of State for the purpose of any such scheme shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:

Provided that, unless Parliament otherwise determines—

  1. (a) the sums to be so paid for the purposes of any such schemes for promoting research or inquiry shall not in the aggregate exceed five hundred thousand pounds in any financial year; and
  2. (b) the sums to be so paid for the purposes of any other such schemes shall not in the aggregate exceed five million pounds in any financial year, and no such other scheme shall continue in force after the thirty-first day of March, nineteen hundred and fifty-one.

(2) Before making any scheme under this section the Secretary of State—

  1. (a) shall satisfy himself that fair conditions of labour will be observed in the execution of all works the cost of which is to be defrayed in whole or in part in pursuance of the scheme, and in particular—
    1. (i) that the wages paid will be at not less than the standard rates; and
    2. (ii) that no children under such age as may be appropriate in the circumstances, but not in any case being less than fourteen years, will be employed on the works; and
  2. (b) shall take into account the desirability of securing so far as possible that the Colony in respect of which the scheme is made shall participate in any increase in values directly attributable to the scheme.

4.14 p.m.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE moved to add to subsection (1): (c) the sums to be paid for the purposes of promoting research or inquiry shall not be applicable to the payment of the salaries of the ordinary scientific or technical staff of any Government Department of the Colony or of or incidental to any continuous advisory or experimental work on which they may be engaged in the course of their normal employment.

The noble Viscount said: I have put down this Amendment in order to make quite certain that the relatively small sum of money which is available under this Bill for the purposes of research shall be applied to research properly defined, and not used for the current expenses of technical advisers or towards the conduct of those routine experiments which are necessarily and invariably carried out by the technical experts of Government Departments. I took the opportunity on the Second Reading of the Bill to point out that there are vast problems which await solution in connection, for example, with such subjects as the tsetse fly, and the serious diseases of both animals and human beings which result from its prevalence, particularly in Central and South Central Africa, and such a problem as malnutrition, a very serious condition which obtains in the case of millions of the native populations of Africa, largely owing to a lack of balance in the food provided for or available to them.

During the same debate on the Second Reading, I illustrated the kind of difficulty which arises when one of these countries happens to run short of revenue sufficient to pay their technical officers, to the very serious disadvantage of those engaged in primary production or in other industries of a somewhat elementary character in a tropical or sub-tropical country. I pointed out that in the course of the inquiry conducted by the Rhodesia-Nyasaland Royal Commission some two years ago, we found, for instance, that the agricultural chemist employed by the Northern Rhodesia Department of Agriculture ceased to carry on his office altogether for at least three years owing to there being insufficient revenue to pay his salary. That is obviously very bad economy; and what I am hoping is that this new money which is provided ostensibly for research will not be applied towards meeting the ordinary current expenses of the necessary technical staff of any of the essential Government Departments in these countries.

I have not taken the trouble to look up the definition of "research," but my own interests and activities during a somewhat long life having been devoted mainly to agricultural research, I am a little jealous lest the term "research" should be misinterpreted and should not have, in this Bill, the meaning which is usually and properly assigned to it. Research, I think your Lordships will agree, is the process by which new knowledge becomes available to human beings as the result of systematic investigation. It could not properly be interpreted to mean the payment of technical advisers for the conduct of routine experiments based upon already ascertained knowledge, as opposed to new knowledge which is the result of new research experiments or the conduct of new scientific investigations with a view to new technical advice being available. I do not know what my noble friend is going to say with regard to this Amendment, but I do most earnestly venture to hope that, so far as these technical officers and their routine experiments are concerned, whether they be chemical, mycological or veterinary—all of which are most important in subtropical countries—if more money is wanted for those purposes owing to insufficient revenue being available, that money will be found out of the larger fund which is to be provided under this Bill and not from the relatively small amount which is earmarked for the purposes of research. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 4, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Viscount Bledisloe.)

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LLOYD)

I can assure my noble friend that I am in entire sympathy with the purpose which the Amendment moved by him is designed to achieve. Indeed, I can assure your Lordships that it is a very definite intention of His Majesty's Government that the funds which are to be provided by Parliament for the furtherance of research in matters of concern to the Colonial Empire should not be eaten into by using them to relieve Colonial Governments of expenditure which they ought to incur from their own resources. The whole point of the provision which is being made under this Bill is that there are vast fields of research into matters vitally affecting the well-being of the Colonies and their inhabitants which many Colonial Governments are at present unable to undertake because they have not the requisite resources, and it is precisely for the purpose of enabling these vitally important researches to be undertaken that Parliament is now being asked to make provision to enable their cost to be met from the funds of this country.

I know very well from my experience in another field of activity in which I have been engaged for the last two or three years, that there is always a temptation for Colonial Governments when funds are placed at their disposal from an outside source for a specific purpose, to consider whether this outside assistance may not enable them to economise on services for which they themselves have previously been paying, and so really riding off, if I may use the phrase, the very purpose for which the money was given. I have had constant experience of it in dealing with the British Council's affairs where there is a natural temptation for a Colonial Government, on being offered money from outside, to see whether it cannot economise its own revenues. Therefore my noble friend is preaching to the completely converted in this matter. I must confess that I should have been happy if I could have accepted by noble friend's Amendment, or at any rate some modification of it, which would have achieved the purpose which he has in mind. I have, none the less, however, considered the matter very carefully and I have come to the conclusion that no form of words could be devised to achieve this purpose which would not at the same time be so rigid as to rule out assistance in some cases in which I am sure the noble Viscount and your Lordships would agree that it should be rendered. May I give your Lordships an example of what I have in mind?

Let us assume that a most important piece of research work is being carried on by the scientific officers of a prosperous Colony. Even prosperous Colonies sometimes fall upon bad times, and it might be that the only way of ensuring the continuance this work would be for Parliament to come to the rescue and to vote money for the continuance of this work. I submit to your Lordships that it would be very deplorable if words were introduced into this Bill which would make this impossible, as would certainly be the case if your Lordships were to accept the Amendment proposed by my noble friend. I am afraid, therefore, that I must ask your Lordships to reject this Amendment, but at the same time to accept an assurance from me that it is the definite intention of His Majesty's Government—and here I speak for the Treasury as well as for myself—that the funds to be devoted to research under the provisions of this Bill should be spent on schemes which would otherwise be beyond the resources of the Colonies—I think that is a clear enough assurance to my noble friend—and that we shall constantly be on the watch to ensure that these funds are in no way diverted from the purpose for which they are designed by allowing them to be used to relieve Colonies of expenditure which they ought properly to undertake from their own resources. I hope my noble friend, in view of that very categorical assurance, will feel able to withdraw his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

While I remain entirely unconvinced, I can of course, quite realise that as long as my noble friend remains the alert watch-dog at the head of the Colonial Department, I may feel pretty happy in my own mind that this money will not be diverted for a purpose for which Parliament obviously did not intend it. These are grave times and, although entirely unconvinced, I do not want, in the circumstances, to press this Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

4.25 p.m.

LORD LLOYD moved, in subsection (2), after "section," to insert "as respects any Colony." The noble Lord said: As this is a purely verbal Amendment, consequential on the Amendment which follows, I will, with your Lordships' permission, deal with these two Amendments together. My second Amendment is to move in line 7 on the same page, after "himself," to insert: in a case where the scheme provides for the payment of the whole or part of the cost of the execution of any works, that the law of the Colony provides reasonable facilities for the establishment and activities of trade unions, and The effect of this Amendment, as your Lordships will see, is to place the Secretary of State under an obligation to satisfy himself, before making any scheme which will involve financial assistance being provided by Parliament under this Bill, that the law of the Colony provides reasonable facilities for the establishment and activities of trade unions. This does not mean that the Secretary of State will have to be satisfied that trade unions are actually in existence, and operating, in the Colony concerned; but merely that there are no obstacles, in the laws of that Colony, to the formation, and operation, of trade unions if the workers of that Colony desire to form them. It is therefore not mandatory, but permissive.

An Amendment to this effect was moved on the Committee stage of the Bill in another place but was withdrawn on my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State giving an assurance that the principle of the Amendment was acceptable to His Majesty's Government and that, if a really satisfactory form of words to achieve the purpose of the Amendment could be found, I would introduce the Amendment in your Lordships' House. I am satisfied that the form of words which I am now moving is satisfactory for its purpose, and I may mention that steps have been taken to ascertain that the terms of this Amendment are acceptable not only to the members of the other House who spoke to the Amendment which was introduced there, but also to other honourable members who took part in the debate. Your Lordships can therefore be assured that, if you accept this Amendment, it will equally be acceptable to the House of Commons. It is therefore an agreed Amendment.

In moving it I wish to make it quite clear to your Lordships that it is not intended to introduce a new principle into the administration of our Colonial Empire. In fact, it has for many years been the deliberate policy of every one of my predecessors to encourage Colonial Governments to introduce satisfactory legislation to legalise and regulate the operation of trade unions in the territories under their administration. I am aware that the view is held in many quarters, and was expressed in the course of the debate in another place, that the inhabitants of many of the Colonies, especially in Africa, are not yet ripe for organization in trade unions, and I should like to make it clear that neither in this Amendment nor in the legislation which has already been enacted in a large number of Colonies to legalise the formation of trade unions, is there anything mandatory in that respect. But we have to face modern times, and as your Lordships are aware, while it is the case that in a number of the Colonies large numbers of the inhabitants are in a rudimentary stage of development, there are many other Colonies which have had a long association with Western ideas, and even in the so-called backward Colonies, many of the inhabitants are now increasingly engaged in industrial and other undertakings, organised on Western lines, where they are in daily contact with Western ideas. In such communities it is only natural that the workers should, in this as in many other respects, wish to tread the same path as has been trodden by the workers in this country.

There is another reason why I think this Amendment should commend itself to your Lordships. In spite of this inevitable growth of the trade union movement among the more advanced of the workers in the Colonies, there has been very little legislation regulating their activities. Where that was the case in a large number of Colonies there were forming, under the law then prevailing, illegal societies which were frequently dealt with as such. The inevitable result was that what, if property directed, should have been a perfectly normal and healthy development, was in danger of being driven underground and was getting into the hands of wholly irresponsible and often ill-disposed persons who were only too ready to make use of the unions for their own subversive purposes. It was Lord Passfield who formed the view that, quite apart from any theoretical question of the desirability or otherwise of such organisations, the most effective remedy for the state of affairs which was developing was that all Colonial Governments should be encouraged to introduce legislation to legalise the activities of trades unions and to provide for their proper conduct. In fact, Lord Passfield's anxiety that the movement should develop on the right lines—I mention him because he was keenly interested in this matter—led him to suggest to Colonial Governments that the laws which he was encouraging them to pass should include a provision stipulating that trade unions should be registered, a provision which is not found in the legislation of this country. This policy of encouraging all Colonial Governments to pass legislation of this character has been followed by all Lord Passfield's successors in office with, a view to ensuring, as far as is possible, that as and when workers in the Colonies reach the stage of development when they aspire to the formation of unions to further their legitimate interests, the way shall be clear for them to do so on sound constitutional lines.

I am told that, at the present time, the number of workers' trade unions registered under this legislation in the Colonies is in the neighbourhood of 180. So your Lordships will see that there is nothing new or revolutionary in what I am now proposing. The majority of these unions are in Colonies such as Cyprus, Mauritius, Ceylon and certain of the West Indian Colonies. I have a list here if any noble Lord wishes to look at it. The movement is also developing in West Africa and I understand that in East Africa one or two unions have been formed. It is true that the members of many of the unions which have been formed in the course of the last few years are comparatively unsophisticated and not well versed in Western ways, and their leaders are in need of guidance to ensure that they acquire a due sense of their responsibilities. This is a problem which is actively engaging the attention of all Colonial Governments and of the Colonial Office itself. I am sure that your Lordships will agree that, if properly directed, the trade unions in the Colonies will, in course of time, come to fulfil a most useful function in achieving that happy relationship between employers and employed which is essential to the health of the whole body politic. I need hardly, at this juncture in our affairs, remind your Lordships of the vital part which the trade unions in this country are playing in our united national effort, and I commend this Amendment very confidently to your Lordships as a very right and proper provision to insert in this Bill. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 5, after ("section") insert ("as respects any Colony").—(Lord Lloyd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.35 p.m.

LORD LLOYD

The next Amendment is consequential, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 7, after ("himself") insert ("in a case where the scheme provides for the payment of the whole or part of the cost of the execution of any works, that the law of the Colony provides reasonable facilities for the establishment and activities of trade unions, and").—(Lord Lloyd.)

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

This appears to be a series of Amendments in order to encourage and strengthen the forces of trade unionism so as to ensure proper conditions of labour in our Colonies. Far be it from me, being a convinced advocate of trade unionism in all English-speaking countries, to say any word which would appear to deprecate the desire to ensure proper conditions of labour in any country over which flies the Union Jack, and particularly at this time when we must all agree that during this crisis the attitude of trade unionists and their leaders throughout this country has been nothing short of magnificent.

But I do wish to utter this word of warning. My noble friend the Colonial Secretary did mention that in certain African Colonies this particular provision would not be of very great value until there was a further development of what I may call Western civilisation. I have lately come from a country where, perhaps unfortunately, the very strong trade unionism of the European people, resulting in very high wages and very good conditions of labour, operates as a most unsettling factor in the native mind. After all, in the countries of South-Central Africa, the higher the European wages as the result of strong trade unionism, the more marked by comparison becomes the difference between the remuneration of the European and the remuneration of the native. I fully recognise that where you have got a majority of European population in any Colony, such a provision as this can only operate to the advantage of labour generally, but where you have an enormous preponderance of native people in a highly primitive state, with relatively small remuneration for their labour, you have to be extremely careful, in applying such provisions as this, that you are not indirectly fostering discontent and making the native problem more difficult to solve. I only wish to mention that as a caveat without in any way opposing these Amendments.

LORD STRABOLGI

On behalf of my noble friends, I have much pleasure in thanking my noble friend the Colonial Secretary for implementing the undertaking given in another place and for introducing this very satisfactory Amendment to the Bill. It is an extraordinary thing, and I recommend my noble friend to draw the attention of his colleague the Minister of Information to it, that while in the totalitarian States—now unfortunately joined by a coup d'état Government in France—highly skilled white labour is forbidden to be in trade unions, we in our Colonial Empire are recognising the need for the gradual and orderly development of the trade union system among skilled and manual workers. That point ought to be driven home through every channel we have to the suffering peoples of Europe. In connection with that, while we are passing this provision with the support of the noble Viscount opposite, who has had great Colonial experience, and without opposition, I regret to see in the newspapers that one of the first acts of M. Laval, the Vice-Premier of the Bordeaux Government, has been to arrest 700 prominent French trade union leaders who had been doing their utmost, through the Confédération Générate du Travail, to increase the supply of munitions and help the French war effort. There you have the contrast. That epitomises the great struggle in which we are engaged.

With regard to what fell from my noble friend the Colonial Secretary about the noisy beginnings of some of these trade unions, it is a fact that where you have unorganised labour, and it is desired to organise the workers and bring them gradually to the state of being able to work together for their own good, it is necessary in the first place, usually, that non-manual workers should take the lead; that is people above their ranks, the intellectual labour of the communities perhaps—sometimes as in India in the past by Europeans and in Africa by Eurasians—and men of the professional classes who have had, in the first place, to organise these, in some cases, primitive workers. The charge made against them has been: "Oh, they have nothing to do with the union; what right have they to try and organise the labourers?" These men, very often public-spirited and self-sacrificing men, have incurred the intense hostility of the employers, as was to be expected, human nature being what it is. But that is got over. We had the same thing in this country a hundred years ago. The agricultural labourers in the Eastern counties of England were attempted to be organised in the first place by men of that kind, but as the unions found their feet so their own leaders emerged. And, of course, that happens in all cases.

Before finally thanking the Colonial Secretary, may I draw attention to how useful unions may be in certain difficult cases? In the quieter times in Palestine the transport workers, dock workers and others, consisting of Jews and Arabs, were all brigaded together into the same unions and worked most harmoniously. There was no communal trouble, and it was not until political and religious issues arose that the harmony was in any way disturbed. There you have an example of the use of a union with, of course, a much more educated working class, for smoothing down communal and racial differences. Speaking for my noble friends, I may add that we are very grateful to my noble friend not only for the introduction of this Amendment, but for the way he has explained its necessity and the Government's policy.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LLOYD moved, in subsection (2)(a), to leave out "all works the cost of which has to be defrayed in whole or in part in pursuance of the scheme" and insert "the works." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is purely verbal and consequential on the wording of my second Amendment, and I need not trouble your Lordships with any long explanation of it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 8, leave out from ("of") to ("and") in line 10 and insert ("the works").—(Lord Lloyd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

4.43 p.m.

LORD LLOYD moved, in subsection (2) (a) (i), to leave out "standard rates" and insert "rates recognised by employers and trade unions in the area where the works are to be executed or, if there are no rates so recognised, at rates approved by the person for the time being administering the Government of the Colony." The noble Lord said: The provision which it is now proposed to amend was taken bodily from the Colonial Development Act of 1929, but it was represented in the debate in the Committee stage in another place, that the words "standard rates" are too ambiguous. They are nowhere defined and indeed seem incapable of definition, especially in relation to some of the more backward Colonies where, quite possibly, work may be undertaken on schemes for which assistance is provided under this Bill of a kind which has perhaps never been undertaken before. It was further argued in the course of that debate that the criterion that ought to be satisfied is that fair rates of wages should be paid to workmen in the Colonies employed on works for which funds will be provided by Parliament under this Bill. This, I am sure, is a principle which will commend itself to their Lordships.

The Amendment which was introduced in another place was withdrawn on an assurance being given by my honourable friend the Under-Secretary for the Colonies that if a suitable form of words could be found to give effect to the principle involved, I would introduce an Amendment in your Lordships' House. Since that debate we have gone into this question very carefully with honourable members who spoke in that debate, and we have come to the conclusion that where there is a recognised trade union rate of wages in any area it is right and proper that that should be recognised as the minimum wage for work, on schemes financed under this Bill. But there will be some places, many perhaps, where there is no trade union rate of wages. In such areas we thought that the most satisfactory provision to make should be that the wages to be paid should be at rates approved by the Government. The wording of this Amendment has been agreed with members of the House of Commons who took part in the debate in that House, so that your Lordships can be assured that if you approve this Amendment it will also be acceptable in another place. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 13, leave out ("standard rates") and insert he said new words.—(Lord Lloyd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LLOYD moved, in subsection (2) (b), to leave out "in respect of which the scheme is made." The noble Lord said: This Amendment also is purely verbal and is consequential on the wording of my first and second Amendments, and I need not therefore trouble your Lordships with any further explanation of it.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 19, leave out from ("Colony") to ("shall") in line 20.—(Lord Lloyd.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Relief in respect of certain loans.

3.—(1) The outstanding amount of the principal of the loans made from time to time out of moneys provided by Parliament to the Governments of the countries specified in the first column of Part I of the Schedule to this Act for the purposes specified in the second column of that Part, amounting to the sums specified in the third column of that Part, shall be extinguished, and all arrears of interest thereon shall be remitted.

(2) The Treasury may agree, on such conditions as they think fit, to extinguish the outstanding amount of the principal (amounting to one million two hundred and fifty-five thousand and twenty-one pounds, fourteen shillings and two pence) of the sums which have been lent from time to time out of moneys provided by Parliament to the Government of Nyasaland for the purpose of enabling it to meet its liabilities arising out of the Trans-Zambesia Railway guarantee, and to remit all arrears of interest thereon.

4.47 p.m.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE moved to insert at the end of subsection (2): "and the current obligation to apply half its standard revenue in excess of £450,000 per annum towards the repayment to the Treasury of its past loans therefrom." The noble Viscount said: I do not think I need take up your Lordships' time over the two Amendments which I have put down to this clause, because my noble friend has been good enough to allow me to have a conversation with one of his officials and also with a representative of the Treasury, and has made the position in regard to Nyasaland, to which my Amendments refer, much clearer, if I may say so, than on the face of it the Bill itself does. I reminded your Lordships on Second Reading that little Nyasaland, with a very large native population and a very small white population, has had a very heavy capital debt hanging over it in regard to the Trans-Zambesia Railway, and particularly in relation to what is, I think, the longest railway bridge in the world, the bridge crossing the Zambesi and linking up Portuguese East Africa with the Rhodesias and countries to the north of them. This Amendment makes special provision for extinguishing this debt, or at least the greater part of it, and I want very cordially, on behalf, if I may say so, of Nyasaland, to thank my noble friend and the Treasury for taking this very enlightened step. I particularly emphasize it as an enlightened and fair course because this debt has hung like a pall over the whole of the development of what is by far the most fertile part, and the part most capable of development, of this little Protectorate of Nyasaland.

As the Bill stands, it looks as if only a sum of £1,255,000 was now going to be extinguished out of a considerably larger debt, but if we turn, as I have been reminded to do, to the end of subsection (2) of Clause 3, we learn that all the arrears of interest are to be remitted as well as the capital sum upon which those arrears have developed. This remittance amounts to a sum of over £500,000 which puts a very different complexion upon the generosity of the British Treasury in alleviating the Nyasaland burden, and, that being so, I do not want myself to press my second Amendment in which I ask that a further £300,000 should be found in order to make it perfectly clear that this heavy capital debt should no longer hang over Nyasaland in regard to the Trans-Zambesia Railway and its bridge.

As regards the first of these two Amendments I want to ask my noble friend a question. The current obligation is to pay half its standard revenue—that is half of the standard revenue of the Nyasaland Government—in excess of £450,000 per annum towards the repayment to the Treasury of its past loans therefrom. As matters stand to-day, the Nyasaland Government are bound to apply one moiety of any excess over £450,000 in repaying to the British Treasury part of its old debts. Those old debts are referable to various developments and incidents, one of them being the last war. What I want to be quite sure about is this: First of all, whether that provision is going to continue in the future, because it does act as a restrictive factor in the industrial development of the country; and secondly, whether it continues or not, whether Government control on the part of the British Treasury is going to be exercised in the future in regard to the finance of Nyasaland, because it is this Government control which operates so largely in preventing enterprising white men providing capital and further developing many industries which are awaiting development, such as the growing of sisal, the production of tung oil and the production on a larger scale of tobacco, which can be grown with exceptional success in Southern Nyasaland and of which we want all we can get now, from countries under British administration. Perhaps my noble friend will be able to reassure me on these matters and in that event I should not press my Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 4, after ("thereon") insert ("and the current obligation to apply half its standard revenue in excess of £450,000 per annum towards the repayment to the Treasury of its past loans therefrom.")—(Viscount Bledisloe.)

LORD LLOYD

I am very glad that my noble friend has been good enough to say he will not press the second Amendment and to have been able to assure him behind the scenes that his fears—which I should have shared had I not known the facts—are really not necessary. As regards the Amendment which has just been moved, the position I understand, is this. The arrangement by which one half of the excess of ordinary revenue over "standard" revenue is earmarked for reducing the Nyasaland Government's debt to His Majesty's Government in connection with the Trans-Zambesia Railway Guarantee is an administrative arrangement, and has not been embodied in any Statute. It would accordingly be inappropriate to modify the arrangement by statutory means. Moreover, since 1929 the arrangement has in fact been inoperative since ordinary revenue has always been below "standard" revenue. Really the answer to my noble friend's point is that if it became necessary there would be a grant in aid. I hope therefore he will be able to withdraw his Amendment.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

Am I to understand from my noble friend's answer that in fact the Nyasaland Government will not be bound to apply half the excess of its standard revenue to these purposes, the main debt having been wiped out?

LORD LLOYD

As I understand the position, that is the case, and I would like to repeat that the position would be met by a grant in aid.

VISCOUNT BLEDISLOE

But Treasury control would continue?

LORD LLOYD

I think so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

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