Lords Sitting of 8 August 1940

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR On the Woolsack.

INDIA.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any announcement to make concerning India.
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, I am glad to have this opportunity of drawing the attention of your Lordships to a statement issued today by the Governor-General with the authority of His Majesty's Government. As the statement is rather long I do not propose to read it, but the full text is now available as a White Paper in the Printed Paper Office. The statement opens with a reference to India's manifest anxiety to increase her already important contribution to the common cause and to His Majesty's Government's deep concern that the unity of national purpose required to this end should be achieved as soon as possible. After referring to the lack of agreement among the major political Parties which caused the failure to secure unity through the expansion of the Governor-General's Executive Council and the appointment of a Consultative Committee last autumn, and to the continuance of these differences as revealed in more recent private conversations, as well as in public resolutions, the statement declares that His Majesty's Government do not feel that they should any longer postpone action. They have accordingly authorised the Governor-General to proceed with the expansion of his Executive Council and to set up also a War Advisory Council, the latter to contain representatives of the Indian States and of other interests in the national life of India as a whole; and to issue in the appropriate quarters invitations to join these bodies.
The Governor-General then refers to the doubts which are evidently still felt as to the intentions of His Majesty's Government for the constitutional future of India.

157
He observes that two main points have emerged in this connection on which His Majesty's Government have desired him to make their position clear, one being the position of minorities in relation to constitutional changes and the other the machinery for building the new scheme when the time comes. Your Lordships will find that this is done in the last two paragraphs of the statement.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I am sure your Lordships will have heard with satisfaction the fact that proposals have been made for further development of the action of the Government of India with regard to questions between India and ourselves, but in view of the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has a Motion on the Paper for next week for a discussion on the whole question of India, I feel that at this moment, particularly as the White Paper has only just come within the knowledge of your Lordships, you would wish to defer any general discussion on the question until next week.

ALLIED FORCES BILL. [H.L.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD CROFT): My Lords, I beg to introduce a Bill to make provision with respect to the discipline and internal administration of certain Allied and Associated Forces, and for the application in relation to those forces of the Visiting Forces (British Commonwealth) Act, 1933, the Naval Discipline Act, the Army Act and the Air Force Act. I move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1ª.—(Lord Croft.)
On Question, Bill read 1ª, and to be printed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DOMINION AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That in the event of the Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) Bill being received from the Commons, Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose
158
of passing the said Bill through all its stages.—(Viscount Caldecote.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911, and read 1ª.
Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been dispensed with, Bill read 2ª: Committee negatived: Bill read 3ª, and passed.

WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION (SUP- PLEMENTARY ALLOWANCES) (No. 2) BILL.
Read 3ª (according to Order), and passed.

MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.
4.8 p.m.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the first question standing in my name on the Paper.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government how many persons are at present employed in the Ministry of Information; whether there has been any increase of personnel since last October; and what is the present total annual expenditure on salaries and wages.]
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: The total staff employed at 31st July was 1,385, excluding staffs overseas. There has been an overall increase in personnel since October last. The total annual expenditure on the salaries and wages of this staff is at the rate of approximately £403,000.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, arising out of that answer may I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House whether the figure last given was not 999, and is not this roughly an increase of 50 per cent. in the numbers?
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, on a point of order. I understood from the discussion we had the other day that

159
a supplementary question was to be confined to the Peer asking the question, and that fresh points might not be raised in the debate. I submit that to your Lordships subject to what may be said by the Lord Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord, I think there is some misapprehension. The Offices Committee—and I speak in the presence of many who were there—discussed this point, and they thought it right that a supplementary question arising out of a starred question should not be confined to the Peer asking the question, but that any of your Lordships who wished for further information should be allowed to ask a supplementary question. I will just read to your Lordships the relevant part of the Committee's Report:
"If a Peer is not satisfied with the answer given, a supplementary question can be asked, provided such supplementary question is confined to the subject of the original question."
It is for your Lordships who are guardians of the order of the House to decide whether a supplementary question such as my noble friend Lord Strabolgi has asked is within the four corners of that provision.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I did not have that interpretation in view, but may I now put it to your Lordships: Can any number of Peers who are dissatisfied with the answer, perhaps on different grounds, raise a supplementary question?
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, may I raise another point? Is subsequent intervention to be limited to a question or is it open to any Peer to comment on the answer—in short, to debate it?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, I think the general sense of the House was that only supplementary questions should be asked and that nothing in the nature of comment or debate should be permitted. If a debate on a supplementary question or on the original question is desired by any noble Lord, opportunity is afforded him to move for Papers. I think that was the intention of the Committee and of your Lordships.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord, Lord
160
Rankeillour, because he has enabled me by rapid calculation to amend my question and to ask whether this is not an increase of 40 per cent.—not 50 per cent. May I add that this does not mean that I am dissatisfied with the answer given? I am only asking for further elucidation.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: I cannot pledge myself as to the accuracy of my noble friend's arithmetic, but I think the figure 999 was mentioned some months ago as the number of the staff.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: May I ask whether it was in the minds of those who framed this new—it is not a Standing Order, but what I may call a voluntary rule—that one Peer after another might each put one supplementary question?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: Yes, I think that was the intention, in firm reliance upon your Lordships' good sense.
LORD ARNOLD: May I ask the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, because this is very important and we have had several debates on it in the last fifteen years, what he meant when he said that any noble Lord might move for Papers? Does it mean that he must put down a Notice on the Order Paper?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: That was my meaning, and, if I expressed myself inadequately, I apologise. If a noble Lord wishes to move for Papers Notice must be properly put down on the Order Paper.
LORD ARNOLD: Does the noble Viscount, the Leader of the House, mean that any noble Lord who wishes to carry the matter further cannot do so on that particular occasion, but must put down a separate Motion and move for Papers?
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: The noble Lord has understood me quite correctly.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw the second question which I put on the Paper relating to the Ministry of Information. Through a clerical error that question associates my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth with the Ministry, and I beg to offer my apologies to the House and also to my noble friend for this error.

DOMINIONS AND THE WAR.
4.14 p.m.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, I beg to ask the third question standing on the Paper in my name.
[The Question was as follows:
To ask His Majesty's Government whether, following the precedent of the last war, it is proposed to invite Ministers of the Dominions to participate more directly in the conduct of the war and to create a Supreme War Council which would include representatives of the British Commonwealth and India.]
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, the desirability of arranging personal discussions with Dominion Ministers whenever possible as a further method of facilitating the closest possible co-operation between the war efforts of the members of the British Commonwealth is constantly borne in mind by His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom. As the noble Lord is aware, Ministers from the Dominions visited London last autumn and useful discussions were then held on many subjects connected with the war. Other visits by individual Dominion Ministers have since taken place. The United Kingdom Government feel that the present moment is not opportune for inviting Dominion Ministers to visit London for an Imperial War Conference or other discussions, but they will certainly welcome such discussion if occasion offers.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
4.16 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg to ask my noble friend the Leader of the House, if he has any statement to make on next week's business.
VISCOUNT CALDECOTE: My Lords, next Tuesday, the 13th August, in addition to the business already on the Paper for that day, it is proposed to take the Second Reading of the Bill presented this afternoon. I would remind your Lordships that the first business will be the debate on the Second Reading of the Agriculture (Miscellaneous War Provisions) (No. 2) Bill. On Wednesday, the 14th August, we shall have a debate on Indian affairs on the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi. On Thursday, the 15th August, it is proposed to take the Committee stage of the Agriculture Bill, and the remaining stages of the Allied Forces Bill, which is in the nature of an emergency measure and must be sent down to another place to be dealt with before Parliament rises for the Recess. In addition, there are already on the Paper questions by my noble friend Lord Newton on the hearing of appeals from interned civilian aliens and on the arrest and detention of Sir Lancelot Oliphant by the German Government. It is proposed that the House should meet each day at four o'clock.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:
Appropriation.
Workmen's Compensation (Supplementary Allowances).
House adjourned at ten minutes before five o'clock.