Lords Sitting of 26 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

THE WAR: THE HOME FRONT.
4.5 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the general situation.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, the first subject in to-day's statement is a report to the House of the second meeting of the Supreme War Council which was held on September 22, this time in England. The meeting was attended by M. Daladier, M. Dautry, General Gamelin and Admiral Darlan for France and by the Prime Minister and my noble friends Lord Halifax and Lord Chatfield for Great Britain. The British representatives had great pleasure in being able to welcome M. Daladier and his colleagues to our shores. The Council met in the morning and again in the afternoon. Your Lordships will be glad to hear that our representatives found themselves in complete agreement with the French representatives on the course to be followed to meet developments which had taken place since their last meeting on September 12 and to give effect to the Allied plans. Agreement was also reached on the procedure for co-ordinating and perfecting the arrangements to be made by the two Governments on the question of munitions and supplies.
Since the last statement on September 20 the effects of the action of the Soviet Government on the position in Poland have become clearer. The Soviet forces have everywhere rapidly advanced and on September 23 a German-Soviet communiqué was published in Moscow, according to which the German and Soviet Governments had established a demarcation line between the German and Soviet Armies running roughly north and south from East Prussia through Warsaw to the junction of the Hungarian and Slovak frontiers. It will be noticed that this line brings the Soviet forces up
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to the suburbs of Warsaw and leaves the greater part of Galicia and of the Polish oil wells in Soviet control. The communiqués recently issued by the Red Army do not, however, suggest that the Soviet troops have as yet occupied all the territory allotted to them under this arrangement, which amounts to more than half the total area of the Polish Republic. In these circumstances, the Polish Armies, taken in rear as well as in front, have naturally been unable to maintain their ground. The Polish people have not, however, given up the struggle and the whole world is deeply moved by the magnificent heroism of the defenders of Warsaw and the Hela peninsula, who are still holding out against the surrounding German forces in spite of ruthless and continuous bombardment.
In the statement on September 20, a brief reference was made to the problems with which the Rumanian Government had been confronted by the passage of Polish troops and civilians into Rumanian territory. His Majesty's Government were watching with sympathy the efforts of the Rumanian Government to meet these problems, when they learnt of the cowardly assassination of M. Calincscu, the Rumanian President of the Council, on September 21. His Majesty's Minister at Bucharest was at once instructed to convey to the Rumanian Government an expression of the horror of His Majesty's Government and of the British people at this outrage and their sincere and heartfelt condolence in the great loss which Rumania had thereby suffered.
On the Western front, the French have continued to make progress in certain localities and have succeeded, notwithstanding
increasingly energetic German reaction, in maintaining all their gains intact.
In the air, the normal work of reconnaissance and anti-submarine patrol, in co-operation with the Royal Navy, has been continued. The House will have heard with interest and pride of the rescue of the master and crew of the "Kensington Court" by two Royal Air Force flying boats and will, I am sure, desire to join with His Majesty's Government in congratulating the officers and men concerned upon their enterprise and skill. Many attacks have been made on enemy submarines. The great developments in

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the endurance, speed and reliability of aircraft since the last war have enabled them to play a most important part in the work of defeating the submarines. The value of the employment of aircraft for this purpose is not limited to reconnaissance reports or to the attacks carried out, but consists also in the fact that the continuous air patrols make it far more dangerous for hostile submarines to come to the surface. The work of the Coastal Command patrols has thus proved of the utmost assistance to the Royal Navy in combating the submarine menace. I understand that the First Lord of the Admiralty is making a long statement in regard to the activity of the Navy in another place, and therefore there is nothing in this statement about the actual work by the Royal Navy which I can give to your Lordships.
In the Dominions the preparations of His Majesty's Governments continue with gathering momentum. Dominion naval vessels are co-operating with our own; Dominion army units are being trained for service as circumstances may demand; Dominion air strength is being prepared for use overseas. Mention should also be made of another most important contribution. As the result of close co-operation, supplies of finished munitions, raw materials and foodstuffs from the Dominions are being made available in ever-increasing volume for the common cause.
Previous statements have dealt fully with the Civil Defence Services, and there is little to say on this subject to-day. The Government would only emphasize again that nothing must be done, either by way of relaxing our restrictions or reducing the scale of our preparations, which is likely to make us less capable of meeting the air menace by which we are constantly threatened.
The statement so far, as on previous occasions, has given a brief résumé of events abroad and on the various fronts, and of the activities of our fighting and Defence Services. It may be of interest to your Lordships and to the country if the main theme to-day is the development of some of the vast undertakings, vital to the winning of the war, now being entered upon on the Home Front and the repercussions of these undertakings upon the national life. Let me begin with a
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short account of the work of the Ministry of Economic Warfare. This Department will perform, broadly speaking, the functions which were carried out in the last war by the Ministry of Blockade, but, whereas this last Ministry was not set up until 1916, the Ministry of Economic Warfare has been under organisation for the past two years, and the complete staff necessary to run it was selected many months ago. The general object of the Ministry is to disorganise Germany's economic structure to such an extent as to make it impossible for her to carry on the war. For every man in the front line you must have many behind the line engaged in the production and servicing of the weapons of war, and, if Britain can prevent Germany from importing the raw materials essential for the functioning of her war industries, the result will be effectively to cripple her power to prolong hostilities.
A word of warning against over-optimism is necessary. Germany already possesses stocks of varying size of the raw materials which she requires to import, and quick results cannot therefore be expected from the Ministry of Economic Warfare. But our command of the sea means that from the day war broke out Germany was cut off from many of her sources of supply, and the figures for the first three weeks of war show that we have seized about 256,000 tons of goods as to which there was evidence that they were contraband consigned to Germany. These include some 62,000 tons of petroleum products, 65,000 tons of iron ore and 37,000 tons of manganese ore.
German propaganda has meanwhile been active in alleging that our contraband control will have no effect on Germany, as she is self-sufficient, but will on the other hand completely strangle neutral trade. I do not know which of these statements is further from the truth. The fact is that we made it plain from the beginning of the war that we were anxious to take account of the bona-fide trading needs of neutral countries and that His Majesty's Government would gladly consider any suggestions which neutral Governments might put forward for this purpose. Friendly discussions are now taking place with a number of Governments, and His Majesty's Government hope in certain cases to come to arrangements with them which will still further

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simplify the procedure of contraband control. Facts speak for themselves, and neutral opinion will undoubtedly make its own comparison between our clearly-declared policy on the one hand, and on the other the thinly-veiled menaces of Germany towards neutrals—menaces which in the past few days have been translated into action by the sinking of three neutral ships in circumstances constituting a clear breach of international Law.
Much play is made in German propaganda of the inclusion of foodstuffs in the category of conditional contraband, and it is represented that we are thereby conducting an illegal and inhumane blockade. But in this respect a naval blockade is in no way different from a land siege, and no one has ever suggested that a besieging commander should allow free rations to a besieged town. In any case the German Government should be the last to make such an accusation at a time when their submarines are attacking all shipping coming to these islands with a complete and callous disregard of humanity and of the rules of submarine warfare to which they had solemnly agreed.
In its effects upon the life of the nation the great change that is now taking place in the scope and purpose of industry is all-important. Practically the whole force of our industry has now to be concentrated, directly or indirectly, on war needs, and the size and difficulty of some of the problems involved in this changeover were made apparent in the debate last week on the work of the Ministry of Supply. If this great task is to be carried through successfully, the co-operation of the workpeople themselves is the first essential, and His Majesty's Government take this opportunity of declaring that we are ready and anxious to take any steps that may be necessary to secure their good will. As my right honourable friend the Minister for Supply said in the course of a recent debate in another place:
"There is no single factor of greater importance than that representatives of organised labour should approve the general framework of the expansion scheme."
Later in the same debate Colonel Llewellin, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply, indicated that it was proposed to set up area advisory
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committees "consisting not only of business men in the areas but representative of labour working in the areas"; and he stated further that "if representative working people will come in and help us on these committees, they will do so on a complete equality."
It is not always easy, however sincere may be the intention, to formulate a satisfactory scheme at the commencement of the operation of a Department of such a wide scope as that of the Ministry of Supply; but, given a desire to achieve the same object, it should not be difficult to adjust the scheme in a manner to secure that willing co-operation of all parties to industry which we so much desire. The Government will be very glad to consider any proposals made to this end, and we feel sure that it will be recognised that, in suggesting that the problems of labour as such should in general be dealt with by the Ministry of Labour, it was never intended to exclude other methods of associating labour with supply problems. The full organisation of the country's resources requires more than machinery for the regulation of working conditions and of employment, and it is the view of the Government that the support of both employers' and workers' organisations is essential if this country is to put forth its maximum effort. A method of co-operation between Government Departments, employers' organisations, and trade unions, in the form of a Joint Consultative Committee, has played a great part in ensuring the smooth operation of the enormous building programme which has for so long been in progress. The course which has been followed in this case will probably be desirable in others, and it is the policy of the Government to provide all proper means by which this co-operation can be made effective.
In the great engineering industry, which occupies so important a place in our national effort, we have been much encouraged by the initiative shown by the responsible authorities in that industry in preparing for an expansion of the labour supply. The trade unions, which have agreed under proper safeguards to relax their normal conditions, have saved us from the difficulties which confronted us in the last war, and have made a contribution for which the whole country is grateful. There is, in fact, no

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country in which the Government are assured of more organised assistance than that at our disposal. Discussions are taking place which will, I hope, within the next few days lead to a conference between the Minister of Labour and the representatives of the British Employers' Confederation and the Trades Union Congress, which may have most important results. It will, I hope, begin the construction of a joint machine for the regular discussion of common problems.
Finally, His Majesty's Government wish to say to the House, and through the House to the country, a word about our general attitude towards the war. No one can doubt that, in modern warfare, it is upon the determination, courage and endurance of ordinary men and women that victory ultimately depends. No one familiar with conditions in this country can have any doubt as to where we stand in these respects. Never have our people been more united or more determined. They are resolved—and the simple fact cannot be too often stressed—to rid themselves once for all of the perpetual threat of German aggression of which Poland is only the latest instance. We and France entered the war to rid ourselves and the world of that menace, and our peoples are united as they have never been united before in their resolve to achieve that purpose.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg first of all to thank the noble Earl for the statement that he has made, and especially for those new features in it concerning the Ministry of Economic Warfare and the relationships which are to be established between His Majesty's Government and organised labour. I do not propose to discuss the statement to-day, but shall provide an opportunity for to-morrow, when some discussions may take place, especially upon the question of supply.

INDIA'S ATTITUDE.
4.24 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask the Government whether they are in a position to make a statement regarding the attitude of India towards the war.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, I gladly respond
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to the invitation of the noble Lord, more particularly since it provides me with an opportunity of giving expression to the high appreciation of His Majesty's Government of the support which they have so far received from all classes in India. As your Lordships are aware, from the Princes of India there have been received most generous offers of men, money and of personal service, and from individuals in all parts of the country messages of sympathy and of support have been pouring in. His Majesty's Government have noticed with special gratification the statements which have recently been made by the Prime Ministers of the Punjab and of Bengal, offering unconditional aid to them in the struggle. They have also observed, with great appreciation, the aid which has been given to the Governors by the Ministers in all the Provinces of British India, in carrying through such measures as have been proved to be necessary as a result of the outbreak of war. Indeed, the resort to force by the German Government, following as it did upon a series of broken pledges, unparalleled surely in the history of mankind, has been unequivocally condemned by all the political Parties in India, whose leaders have expressed their unqualified sympathy with the victims of aggression. It is indeed abundantly clear that the triumph of the principles for which the Nazi Government stands would be regarded as a calamity of the utmost magnitude by all classes and communities in India.
I am bound to add, however, that in the course of a statement recenly issued those who have been authorised to speak for the Indian National Congress have indicated that they would find it difficult to co-operate wholeheartedly with Great Britain in the prosecution of the war, except upon conditions affecting the political relations between the two countries. Those conditions have, so far, been expressed only in abstract terms, and I am not at present prepared to comment upon them, but I can assure your Lordships that the Viceroy is in close personal contact with the leaders of political thought in India, including, of course, the Indian National Congress and also the All India Moslem League, who have likewise within the last few days defined their general attitude towards the war, and that he hopes immediately to discuss with

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them the issues which arise out of the situation.
In conclusion, should like to add that a tribute is due to the Viceroy himself, and to his colleagues in the Government of India, for the efficiency with which their preparations for meeting the emergency have been made, and for the smoothness with which they have been carried into effect.
4.30 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Marquess for the statement that he has made. Again I do not feel that I can comment at any length upon what he has said on so important a matter immediately after the statement has been made. An opportunity will occur to-morrow, when some considered comment upon it can properly be made, but I would like to associate myself with the noble Marquess at this point in expressing our very deep obligation to the Indian people for the response that they have so far made.

THE MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.
4.31 p.m.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, as I see the Minister of Information in his place, I venture to ask him whether he is in a position to give the House any information additional to that which he provided about ten days ago.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN): My Lords, I need scarcely say that I welcome the invitation of the noble Lord as Minister of Information to give any information in my power, and I welcome the opportunity all the more because in the case of a new Ministry such as has been confided to me, it is a little difficult, I think, for the public to appreciate precisely what are its functions. I may say that I have had considerable difficulty in ascertaining what are its functions myself. But three weeks' experience, I am glad to say, have enabled me to settle in to some extent and to familiarise myself with the somewhat unwonted duties which have been entrusted to me.
Might I with your Lordships' indulgence remove one or two misconceptions about the Ministry of Information? The first misconception is that one is a mine of information upon every subject.
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In point of fact the Ministry is not a Ministry which originates news at all. We have no means of obtaining news in the ordinary sense, in the way in which a newspaper obtains its news from foreign correspondents and by the labours of its reporters. We are dependent for the information which we impart upon the other Government Departments. At the moment there has been some dissatisfaction because the public have not had as much news as they would like to read in their daily papers, especially news about the military activities of this country, and for that they have tended to blame the Ministry. Well, that is not the quarter to which the blame should be addressed. It may be addressed to the circumstances of this war, the way in which events are developing, and that is really the reason why I think to some extent there has been disappointment that there has not been more news emanating from the Ministry of Information.
But the main function of the Ministry, so far as news is concerned, is to distribute and to transmit the news which they themselves have received from other Government sources, and particularly the Service Departments. That may seem at first rather a lowly function—merely to be a postman, receiving letters or information and transmitting them—and if that were all that one had to do that part of our activities would be comparatively simple. But I can assure your Lordships that the active side of the Ministry in this respect is a very vigorous one, because I regard it as the Ministry's duty to be constantly urging the Service Departments to provide information, in so far as that is consistent with military considerations. And indeed the main task to which I have been endeavouring to address myself has been to obtain from the other Departments of State facilities for the information. It lies with them what they are to give to us, but we can represent to them what the public wish to get, and we can present arguments to them why they should afford information. But we are still in this position, that we are dependent upon the other Departments for our material.
If the material appears inadequate we can go to the Department and say, "Is it not possible to tell us more, or present the matter in a more adequate fashion?"

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If we are told that there are military considerations which render that inadvisable, we are entitled to examine and to discuss the reasons. In the last resort of course, however, the safety of the realm and the safety of our fighting men is the paramount consideration, and if we are convinced that the reason is adequate, then of course we must yield, and the information must be withheld. But in that case the House will appreciate that the responsibility lies rather with those who direct that the information should not be given than with us who are the persons desirous of obtaining the information.
I think the real difficulty will be this—a competition between the reasons for publication or non-publication. One has to remember that in some instances a piece of news has military significance. It may be thought undesirable to publish it because it may give information to the enemy which they do not already possess. On the other hand, the giving of that information may have the greatest importance from the point of view of the morale of the country, and it may be a heartening piece of news which it is very desirable to give; for, after all, in a war such as this the safety of the realm depends not upon military considerations only, but upon the courage, resolution and will to victory of the whole nation—and not only our nation but our Allies. Accordingly, there may be, so to speak, a competition of reasons; there may be a military reason why an item of news should not be published, there may be a very large reason affecting the morale of the country which would induce one to publish it. In those circumstances—and every case must be judged by itself—it is necessary to weigh one against the other and come to a decision. And therefore in such circumstances there is a serious and anxious responsibility imposed upon the Ministry. But I do not propose to dwell further upon that aspect of it, beyond saying that, so far as this Ministry is concerned—and its functions are unusual—my real position is that of an advocate of publicity. I am the person who has to endeavour to get the appropriate and necessary publicity, and I can assure your Lordships that I shall constantly emulate the efforts of Oliver Twist and ask for more. But no hard-and-fast rules can be laid down.
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May I turn to the second of the main activities of the Ministry of Information, one as to which there is probably even more misconception, and that is the function of censorship? There seems to be a prevalent idea that housed in the erstwhile buildings of the University of London there is now a secret and menacing power which opens all your letters, reads the contents, makes notes of what you have said, and withholds your most cherished communications. Nothing could be further from the truth. In point of fact the censorship that is exercised in the Ministry of Information is entirely a voluntary censorship, it is not a compulsory censorship at all. The Ministry has nothing whatever to do with the censorship of the letter which you drop in the letter box. The ordinary censorship which is imposed at once for military reasons on the outbreak of war is not the affair of the Ministry of Information at all. That is the censorship which is imposed and derived from the prerogative recognised by Section 56 of the Post Office Act of 1908, and expressed in the form of warrants by the Secretary of State. Accordingly, your Lordships may rest assured that no letters which you write to your friends abroad will be opened by me. We have nothing whatever to do with that form of censorship.
The censorship which has been created within the Ministry is intended to facilitate, and not to impede, the work of the Press. But it is confined to the Press alone. The prevalent idea is that everything that you see in a newspaper just now is censored. That is not so at all. The editors of the newspapers are their own censors. They act, no doubt, during war time under the restraint of the Defence of the Realm Regulations, and they have the assistance of a large number of Defence orders for their guidance as to what they may safely publish; but they need not submit, so far as this country is concerned, anything that they write to any censorship whatever. On the other hand, it is to the newspaper editor a great convenience, in cases where he is proposing to publish something and is in doubt as to whether it may be an infringement of the regulations, to submit it to a censorship in our Department. Consequently a large amount of material is submitted to the Department before it is published in the newspapers. If it passes the censorship in the Ministry of

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Information, then the newspaper is entirely protected from any prosecution under the Defence of the Realm Regulations for what was contained in the article so passed. But let me remind your Lordships that no newspaper is under any obligation whatever to submit anything to the Ministry of Information. It has the facility of submitting to censorship anything as to which it has doubt and, if it is passed, then it may be published without any anxiety on the part of the editor.
That relates to censorship, so far as it exists, of what is published in this country. With regard to what goes out from this country, there again a newspaper correspondent sending out a despatch to his paper, may, if he pleases, drop it in a pillar box addressed to his editor abroad. If he does that, however, he is open to this—that the War Office censorship will open his letter and possibly delay it. Consequently, in the Ministry of Information there is a Department to which a person desirous of communicating with his editor abroad or with his correspondent abroad may bring his postal packet to have it examined and, if it is passed, then the War Office censorship will not re-examine it. In that way there is a very considerable gain of time, and material can be got away more quickly. Ii has been said that in that Department a considerable amount of delay has been occasioned where despatches have been handed in, cablegrams or telegrams, and that there has been a considerable amount of delay in the voluntary censorship Department. There were some snags undoubtedly at first, but I have had some inquiry made, and I am glad to say that we are now getting on very much better.
The figures are really rather remarkable. On three consecutive days last week the scrutiny covered 2,129 cables, and many of them were very long cables containing a great deal of information. Of these 2,129 cables, only 125 were referred for any reason to higher authority for a decision; they were difficult cases as to which it was doubtful whether they should be published or not. But the average time occupied in censoring—that is the time between receiving the cable for censoring and releasing it—was, for the 2,004 cables which were normal ones, exactly 4.6 minutes. For the 125 cables as to which there was some dubiety—
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some question had arisen which had to be referred to higher authority in my Ministry—the average time occupied was 42.4 minutes; and for the whole number the average time occupied by the act of censorship was 6.3 minutes. The House will agree that that is not a very long interval to interpose. When it is remembered that the matter that has been so passed is then, so to speak, franked through the War Office censorship and allowed to go out, it is rather in the nature of a facility than an impediment.
There have been one or two cases where there has been a difference of opinion or a difference of interpretation of a certain kind of ruling in the Censor's department which undoubtedly has caused some trouble, but when you consider the vast amount of material handled the Ministry may take some credit for the despatch. Of course, an editor finds himself at once, in the change-over from peace time to war time, embarrassed in every way in the conduct of his great business of providing news. He finds that mechanical facilities are handicapped; telephonic communications are cut off; and then there is the censorship impediment. All these things are naturally galling and difficult to reconcile oneself to; but it is the business of the Ministry to make these burdens as light as possible and to meet as far as we can any points that are brought before us where practical improvement can be achieved. I am glad to say that with regard to quite a number of these smaller things we have been able to afford new facilities and to relax conditions which seemed unnecessary or too onerous.
The third great department in the Ministry is the Publicity Section, which is a productive and active section. It is what would be called in other countries a Propaganda Section. With regard to that section I would like to say this, that we have the means there of obtaining a very large volume of information from despatches from foreign countries from our representatives there, who transmit material enabling us to gauge the feeling of foreign countries and enabling us also to counteract at once misinformation which may be spreading in those countries, by providing them with material as to our doings and generally acting as a bureau of information for our friends abroad. We have always regarded the position of the United States of America

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as quite distinct from that of other countries. The policy of the Ministry is that there should be no propaganda in the United States of America. We are content with Herr Hitler as our propagandist, and none could be more efficient. We prefer in the case of the United States of America that the facts should speak for themselves. But that does not absolve the Ministry from the very important duty, in so far as the American people desire information from us on facts, of placing at their disposal the information that they desire. But the request must come from them, and they must themselves be the judges of what they desire to place before their public.
I think the House will agree with me that that is the proper policy to pursue in the case of the United States of America; but there are many other countries of the world where it is most desirable that we should provide means of information. The United States of America has resounding sounding boards for publicity of all sorts, but many other countries have not quite the same facilities for obtaining information, and it is our business, through broadcasting, through articles, through newspaper contributions and many other avenues of approach, to supply information to those other countries. That will develop as we go along and will become, I think, more and more useful. We have had many calls already from other countries, asking for assistance in that respect and we can utilize Government publications. There is no better propaganda for us than the Blue-book which was issued the other day. The mere narrative of the facts, the history of events, is for us our best propaganda. But equally, or at any rate, alongside these more or less official publications, it is most desirable that we should afford information, encouragement and help to our many friends throughout the world who are constantly asking us for material.
These, my Lords, are the three main activities, as I see them, of the Ministry of Information. They are rather different from what sometimes people think are the main attributes of that Ministry. They are, I think, capable of being put to very good account, but it will take some time before their utility can be fully realised and the precise functions and
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part which the Ministry can play are realised. I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving me an opportunity in this rather generalised form of explaining the activities of this Ministry as I find them, and at any time that your Lordships desire a more particular account of the things we are doing I shall be most happy to answer any question that may be put to me.
4.52 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I hope the noble and learned Lord will allow me to take advantage of that invitation immediately on behalf of the Labour Party. This matter of the Ministry of Information has been under earnest examination by the Party for whom, if I might, I would speak for one moment.
EARL STANHOPE: The noble Lord opposite knows that my noble and learned friend cannot reply again and so I suggest, if he is going to ask a whole number of questions, it might be advisable to put the matter on the Paper so that it could receive the proper answer from the Minister concerned.
LORD STRABOLGI: I do not wish to do that unless the noble Earl presses me very hard. Of course, if he does so, I shall naturally give way. I am aware that there is no Motion before your Lordships, but after all we only meet now at irregular intervals and the noble and learned Lord, I am sure, would have the leave of the House to speak again. In any case, he could speak on the Motion for the adjournment. I intend to be quite brief, but this matter is so important that I hope I may be permitted to put some points that we consider to be of vital interest at the present time. In the first place, the noble and learned Lord said very little about broadcasting. I am not sure how far the Ministry of Information controls the Broadcasting Company. Our information is that the Board of Governors has ceased to exist, and I understand that the Broadcasting headquarters have been moved to a mysterious unknown place in the country, which everyone knows and no-one is allowed to speak about. The change has not been advantageous and I want to say, on behalf of my Party, that we consider that the whole question of broadcasting requires the attention and the efficiency of the noble and learned Lord himself as far as possible.

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At this time, when people have to stay at home or desire to stay at home, wireless is of very great importance to them; and we are thinking—here I am speaking for the Labour Party who have their contribution to make at the present time—of the morale of our own people. The noble and learned Lord mentioned propaganda; but what the people require at the present time is heartening, and the general complaint we get from those for whom we speak is that they find the programmes, especially the news programmes, very depressing. Those programmes may err on the side of over truthfulness, but it has been put to me that, for example, every evening there is from the French station in Strasbourg a regular talk giving news in German which is most heartening, not to the Germans, but to anyone on our side who listens to it. The commentator may be perhaps, occasionally, drawing the long bow; I do not know; but something between the two is what we suggest is required. We suggest that whoever is arranging the news talks is not only very economical of news, but he creates a depressing effect on people's minds. That is really what the man in the street is saying at the present time.
I also would like to make this point, if I may. There is very little interesting news given in the news bulletin, and there is much news that could be given without any danger at all. I entirely accept the position that nothing should be given that will endanger the public interest, but much could be given which is not given. Compare the German news bulletin in German which is given from ten to eleven at night from Cologne; I at any rate usually get it from there. It goes on for an hour and gives extracts from newspapers published all over the world, a great deal of it intended to hearten the German people. They manage to cram into that hour a great deal of news and it is quite interesting. I am not now talking of the German broadcast in English, which is only comic relief, but I am talking of the German broadcast in German, meant for the German people and whoever else likes to listen to it. They do give a great deal more news than we do.
We in the Labour Party attach the greatest importance to this question of broadcasting, and if have one other comment to make on behalf of my Party.
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Every evening a talk is given by some personage or other. Very many political talks have been given, but only once has my right honourable friend Mr. Arthur Greenwood, the Deputy Leader of my Party, who has acted as Leader during some critical weeks, been invited to give a talk. Every one to whom I have spoken, no matter what may have been his political colour, has spoken appreciatively of that particular talk. No other Labour or trade union leader has, so far, been asked to help. Yet Labour has a contribution and a point of view to put during this struggle. We are trying to voice the views of the mass of people who are as wholeheartedly in this struggle as are the adherents of any other Party. We have, I repeat, a contribution to make, and we are going to demand that we shall have the same facilities to speak to the people and to put our point of view as the Government spokesmen. I suggest that the Government would be well advised to accept this offer which we will make. I cannot congratulate the Government upon all the talks they have put over the air. I am going to speak perfectly plainly because this is not the time for mincing words. The talk by the Lord Privy Seal—I think it was the Lord Privy Seal, Sir Samuel Hoare, but I cannot keep track of the offices which these great statesmen hold in these days—was a failure. It was depressing and disheartening. I know he did his best, but we do not want any repetition of that sort of talk. I am bound to say that, and this is the place in which to say it; and this is the time, when we can give the truth.
There is just one other matter that I wish to mention. I cannot leave this broadcasting subject alone without mentioning that the Germans have captured the short-wave listening public in South Africa. The noble and learned Lord knows that is so, and that really cannot go on. That is an example of what is happening. I spoke just now of the morale of the people on our Home Front which at present is magnificent. We wish to keep it so, but we must not forget the Empire. Empire opinion may be tremendously effective. Whatever is done by our broadcasting and wherever it now is, I think it ought to be under the aegis of the noble and learned Lord, who spoke of his powers by saying he was in the position of Oliver Twist. That condemns the whole position. The position of the

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noble and learned Lord, with great respect to him—and we have a great affection for him and admiration, too, if he will allow me to say so—is not the position which he, in his important office, ought to occupy. What we need at the present time is someone with the power and the position to give it effect, someone in a commanding position to be in charge of our news, someone who shall decide what is to go out and what is not to go out, consistent always with the safety of the forces.
I speak with trepidation in the presence of great journalists. I tried to induce my noble friend Lord Southwood to speak on this matter, but for his own good reasons he declined to do so. I am also speaking in the presence of Lord Camrose and Lord Astor, two very great journalists, and I speak accordingly with great diffidence upon this matter. You need commanding control in this matter. I do not mean administrative control. We are perfectly satisfied with the noble and learned Lord up to the present time on the administrative side, but you need to have control of what goes out, you need someone with journalistic flair. I say this with no lack of respect to the noble Lord, Lord Camrose, whom we look upon as a great organiser and business man in the newspaper world, but there is nobody in control who really understands the medium in which he is working and has the knowledge of its working. This is the complaint of the foreign journalists in London, some of them representing neutral countries of great importance. The noble and learned Lord is well aware of their complaints, particularly the Americans. At the present time they are not satisfied and harm is being done to our cause because they are not satisfied and because they are not helped in their work as they should be.
I said just now I was speaking with diffidence in the presence of leading newspaper owners. What can be said about this blunder to which my noble friend Lord Snell has drawn my attention? With your Lordships' permission I will read a short extract from the front page of the latest edition of the Evening Standard:
"To-day the Queen returned to London from Perth after visiting the Princesses.
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This news was issued by the Press Association and passed by the Ministry of Information for publication at 9.2 a.m.
It appeared in the early editions of the Evening Standard.
At 10.10 a.m. the Ministry of Information cancelled their previous release and requested that no mention be made of the Queen's arrival.
The Evening Standard front page was thereupon changed to conform with this requirement."
My noble friend Lord Camrose knows what that means, and so does my noble friend Lord Southwood. This is not the first time that such a thing has occurred. I continue:
"At 10.32 a.m. the Ministry of Information once more reversed their decision and released the news.
It was therefore re-published by the Evening Standard in the next edition."
That is what people want to know—news about the movements of our beloved Queen visiting her children.
How long is this sort of thing going on? I know the noble and learned Lord has only been in his present position a very few weeks and we all recognise his great qualities. We on this side of the House have had the matter under close review and a trusted colleague of mine in another place, Mr. Noel-Baker, as our representative on the Advisory Council, is closely concerned with this. We are most dissatisfied about much of the work of the Ministry of Information and we demand that there should be a change in method. It is not the fault of the noble and learned Lord—with the greatest respect to him—but it is because he has no real powers and that he is still kept in leading strings by the three Services who, with their brass-hat advisers, do not know the business of journalism and information. You should put in working journalists who understand the medium in which they work to control all that side of the Ministry with proper safeguards, and let the noble and learned Lord represent them in the Government. Then perhaps we might have a repetition of the marvellous work done by a great journalist whose brother adorns your Lordships' House on the other side. I refer to the late Lord Northcliffe. I do not know if we have such a man now. He had many faults but he was a great journalist and he was given his head in moulding foreign opinion and especially enemy opinion.

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What great service he did for the Allied cause! I do not want to make any sort of reflection on the noble Lord, Lord Camrose, who in the middle of a busy life has taken on his present duties, but when things of this kind occur we must speak our minds.
5.3 p.m.
LORD MACMILLAN: My Lords, even with the leave of your Lordships I doubt if I can cover the ground which the noble Lord opposite has so enthusiastically travelled. With regard to the British Broadcasting Corporation, that is not under my umbrella. The British Broadcasting Corporation still remains an independent organisation. It is true that the Board, I believe, has been more or less suspended and that the Chairman and Director are in charge, but I would not like to make any very definite statement on that without first having the opportunity of getting more precise information. I can, however, tell the noble Lord that it is not in my Department.
LORD STRABOLGI: Who does control it?
LORD MACMILLAN: I suppose the Director and Chairman, but I do not know exactly what the control is. On the other hand the British Broadcasting Corporation are in the closest possible association with my Ministry in the sense that when they are given communications to put on the air they must put them on the air. So far as their programmes are concerned, however, they still retain their own independence as to the selection of the material they are going to put
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out, in—shall I say the lighter parts of their programmes? But they must publish what is delivered to them authoritatively from the Ministry of Information, though they are not a department of the Ministry.
With regard to the other matters to which the noble Lord referred there are various things which I find closely affect my Department—there is the question of films about which the noble Lord has a question on the Paper for to-morrow—with which I cannot deal to-day, but I shall be happy to go into them on a future occasion and give an answer, if there be an answer, to his criticisms. I am afraid I cannot carry the discussion further to-day—I have only been able to say what I have said by your Lordships' leave at this stage—but I hope to be given another opportunity later.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, may I be allowed to say that I hope the noble Earl the Lord President of the Council has noted what has been said about the British Broadcasting Corporation? I do not know if the noble Earl can do anything, but what we have heard is very alarming and it ought to be looked into.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I will make inquiries, but at the moment I do not know the position exactly. I should have thought that my right honourable friend the Postmaster-General was in charge of that side of the matter, but I will have inquiry made into the question.
House adjourned at six minutes past five o'clock.