HL Deb 21 September 1939 vol 114 cc1108-19

3.18 p.m.

LORD SNELL rose to call attention to the statement on the situation made yesterday by the Leader of the House; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House as a whole welcomed the statement that was made yesterday on behalf of His Majesty's Government and, while there was much that was not mentioned in it, there did appear to be a growing disposition to be not only frank but more communicative. I want as far as I may to encourage this apparently growing perception that Parliament and the country have something at stake in this issue, and that they should be consulted whenever it is possible. It is not my intention to initiate a long discussion on this issue. While it is important that the country should feel that Parliament is functioning properly, no aimless or purely routine debate is advisable at this time.

I should like in passing to take this opportunity to say that Parliament during the last few weeks has, in my judgment, proved to be worthy of its great traditions, and its contribution towards the enlightenment and steadying of British public opinion is precious beyond price. Uncoerced and unmuzzled, free to take its own course, with instant unanimity, with an unqualified sense of responsibility and complete self-control, it gave to the Government, on behalf of the nation, the moral backing of an awakened and resolute people. Parliament rightly has its critics, but it remains still the bulwark of our strength and the guardian of our liberties. I have therefore again put on the Order Paper the Motion that stands in my name to provide an occasion for members of your Lordships' House to assure the Government that so long as they efficiently conduct the struggle upon which we are now engaged, they may rely upon united support.

The statement that was made to us yesterday was inevitably in general terms, but the precise meaning of some of its phrases is not clear. The war aims were reaffirmed: … to redeem Europe from the perpetual and recurring fear of German aggression and to enable the peoples of Europe to preserve their independence and their liberties. That is excellent as an affirmation of intention, but not entirely enlightening as a programme. The time for greater detail has not arrived, but we shall expect, as time goes on, closer definitions. At the present time it seems to be necessary that we should justify ourselves not only to our own people, but to Europe and to the world at large. The House heard with satisfaction the assurance that the submarine menace is being closely watched and is likely to be overcome. We all know and feel that all that can come from courage and vigilance, the brave men who defend our cause upon the great waters will unstintingly give. I should like to share with the Government, if I may, and I am sure on behalf of the whole House, the deep sympathy that was expressed with those whose menfolk have been the first victims of this present struggle. I should also like to express a hope that our record up to the present—that no lives have been lost on neutral ships through action of ours—will be continued until the end. It will be a great strength to us in the days that are to come.

Your Lordships will have heard with pride and with some emotion of the instant rally to the cause of freedom of the great free peoples of the British Commonwealth. Apart from the material and physical help that they can give, their recognition that we could do no other at the present time than we are doing, sustains and comforts us far more than they can know. The old Mother of Free Peoples cannot be either wrong or friendless when she is so valiantly supported by her free children. If your Lordships will allow me a little Party glorification on this occasion, I should like to say that we on these Benches have read with satisfaction, but not with surprise, the reaction of the Labour Governments in the Dominions in this, perhaps the greatest, crisis in modern civilisation. Their sacrifices, we believe, will not be fruitless, and they will not be forgotten.

The question of Russia was mentioned in the statement made to the House, and I desire to say as little about it as is convenient to-day. The situation is too obscure for useful comment to be made. For myself, until the issue is clarified, I shall withhold criticisms that I am prompted to make, and I hope others who have views upon Russia will exercise a similar restraint. The time will come when we may have to raise the matter and to examine whether our Government have any responsibility for what has happened.

The last point I desire to touch upon concerns the home front which occupied no very large place in the statement of yesterday. We are alarmed at the growth of what we believe to be unnecessary unemployment by reason of the wholesale discharges that have taken place. We hope that much of it is temporary, just as we believe that much of it is unnecessary. I regret to say that our faith in the Government in this matter is not unrestricted. One notices, for example, that in the War Cabinet which has been formed there is no person of economic or commercial authority who can help the Government in this matter, and we may drift into a position of some difficulty. We should also like to express great concern about the present state of supply. I do not need to go into our history in that matter. We have long pleaded that a Ministry of Supply should be set up, but I am afraid I shall have to trouble your Lordships with an early discussion of this matter and I will not go into it to-day. We have some sources of information of our own, and we have no evidence, even now, that there is the least understanding of the scale of requirements that will have to be met. We think it right therefore to ask the country to insist without delay upon instant action equal to the necessities of the hour. In conclusion, I should like to thank again the Government for the statement that was made to us and ask them to believe that the nation not only welcomes these reports but that it expects they will be continued in as full measure as is possible. I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.

3.31 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

My Lords, the predominant feeling in this House I am sure, as elsewhere, is that of overflowing sympathy for the people of Poland, and it is a somewhat bitter reflection that the merciless facts of geography prevent us and prevent our Allies in France from standing in line with the heroic people who are fighting to the last for their liberties. Some of the German orators have presumed to speak contemptuously of the Polish people. When it suits them they are apt to refer to history for the defence of their different aggressions. They might be tempted to remember that Poland was a great Power in Europe when Prussia was only one of the Electorates which had to give formal consent to the succession of one of the House of Hapsburg to the Imperial Throne. They might be tempted to remember that it was a Polish Sovereign and a Polish Army which in the last quarter of the 17th Century saved Vienna and saved the whole of Central Europe from a Moslem domination which might have persisted for generations. But no doubt they cared for none of these things. Meanwhile we welcome the assurance of His Majesty's Government that Poland and also Bohemia are not going to perish from the map of Europe, and that is an assurance which we can all cherish.

The noble Earl very naturally devoted a great part of his speech to the Navy. The loss of His Majesty's ship "Courageous" has stricken the country with grief. All of us, I am sure, would desire to share, so far as we can, in the sorrow and pride which have struck countless homes for those who will not return. Since the Air Force has become so prominent here and in every country as one of the main fighting forces, particularly in the early stages of the Air Force movement, there was almost a tendency to suppose that the power and the functions of the Navy had been to a great extent decreased by the advent of that new force. That, I feel sure, was a complete fallacy, and what is happening now surely proves it. It was almost said that we were no longer an island and could not defend ourselves as an island. We are still an island, and it is one of the greatest prides and defences of the country that we are a seafaring race. All of us share the respect and admiration for the Air Force felt by everybody, and by none more than by members of the two Senior Services, but it is a fact that the action of an Air Force is purely destructive, and it is not by destructive attack that a war can be won any more than a war can be won by a country using nothing but big guns.

For some 400 years since the King's Navy has been an integral and independent part of the defence forces of this country, there have been many wars, the greatest of them forced on us, as this war has been, by the greed and ambition of a foreign ruler; and in practically all those wars the British Navy has played a supreme part. Now I venture to predict that when this war is ended by our victory, as it will be, it will be found that the British Navy has played as great a part in the achievement of that victory as it has ever played in the past.

There is only one other point on which to say a word, and that was alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Snell—namely, the question of unemployment, of which some complain who are desiring to give their services to the country. I think that the members of His Majesty's Government are quite right in assuring us that it would be altogether premature and unwise to relax at present the air-raid precautions. I fear it is very probable that in some parts of the country those restrictions may have been overdone, and that people may have been told off for that service who would have been better employed elsewhere. I am afraid that is undoubtedly true, but it is not surprising that in the first stages, particularly with the kind of reasonable assurance that was required against a great air attack, that this should have occurred. I hope that His Majesty's Government are alive to the necessity of such reorganisation as may be possible in that respect and of the particular point that the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, mentioned yesterday of the return to most valuable work of some who have been—improperly, I am afraid—called away for duties which are hardly duties in the sense that they find themselves with practically nothing to do at the moment.

In conclusion, I desire only to make an apology. I have detained your Lordships for some time and I wish to express the view that at these periodical meetings, which I trust will be held at regular intervals, it does not appear to be necessary that I for one should on every occasion make anything in the nature of a speech in succession to that of my noble friend who leads the Opposition. I think that these periodical meetings are of the utmost value, but it would be decidedly advantageous if some members not sitting on the Front Bench, but also including some on this Front Bench, were to take part and carry on a more general discussion than that which we have been having for the last two or three sittings.

3.43 p.m.

LORD MAUGHAM

My Lords, I wish to make a small contribution to this debate inspired by what I saw in Canada, the great Dominion from which I have only recently returned. I went there as Lord Chancellor—of course with the consent of the King and the Prime Minister—and what I saw there, at a time when some people were a little doubtful as to the Canadian attitude, was of a very reassuring character. I am going to refer to it in a minute. In the first place, I want to make a remark on the matter which I think probably led to this debate—namely, the speech by Herr Hitler delivered to the people at Danzig the day before yesterday. It was the usual mixture of boasting and lies to which this and the German people are accustomed coming from Herr Hitler. He produces the mixture and the proportion of the ingredients in accordance with the particular audience which he has to address. The German people, no doubt, are well accustomed to his boasting. As regards his lies they are, of course, in ignorance, because they are spoon-fed, as we all know, with that modicum of statement which has to pass for facts in that country.

Amongst his other lies or his other boasts, he chose last Tuesday to assert that he had frightened the people of Britain. Well, on my visit to Canada, I came to certain conclusions which I think may have surprised Herr Hitler. I met there a large number of people, including the Prime Minister and I think the majority of the members of the Government, and had long talks with them on the subject of the present crisis. I also noted what all your Lordships know very well, that Canada is a country which consists of people of different races, of different religions, and in some respects of different ideas. In particular I became once more aware of what again your Lordships know, that the French Canadians are not in all respects at one in their ideas with those who are of the English-speaking part of the population. But one and all, whether of one religion or the other, of one race or the other, were absolutely set in their determination to stand by this country if the crisis which then existed should lead to war. I came back to this country with a message from the Prime Minister and the Government to that effect. There were reasons for not making their position clearer than they did make it before the actual outbreak of war, but of their determination there was no doubt whatever.

Your Lordships will observe that there was no compulsion, there was no suggestion, there was no pressure, still less was there any campaign of lies to lead the Canadian Dominion—or indeed any other Dominion—to come to the high resolve to assist this country in a war against Germany. It was a free determination by a free nation. And that again is true of the other Dominions. Their resolve has not been induced by fear or led to by any hopes of any material advantage. Travelling through such a country as Canada, through miles of wide spaces, through the vast areas of birch and pine and enormous lakes, you feel the immensity of the country and the great distance which separates such a land from the centre of Europe. It was borne in upon me that the people of that country—and again the same is true of the Dominions at the Antipodes—have no real reason to fear or to have any doubts as to any possible step that Herr Hitler might have in view against their land. They are protected by these great distances and by almost illimitable seas. Yet they have come to this fixed determination. In Canada two divisions are being equipped at this present moment to assist us at a time when we may have need of them.

So far as I know, there is no example in all history so striking and so moving as the example set to us by these Dominions—an example in the course of which men so far away, so free from risk and danger, so little induced by any personal advantage, come across these vast areas of sea to help this country. At any rate I have never heard in history—unless it be in the war of 1914—of a case where men, not all by any means of our own race, have been induced by a high ideal and in defence of a high principle to embark upon a great adventure such as coming here at such a time involves, and to face the chaotic miseries of war. If Herr Hitler had the courage to tell his people of the set determination of the British Empire and of the action which the Dominions have taken in this matter, if he were not afraid to let them know the truth, it might have a great effect upon the determination of his coerced people to wage this war for the purpose of the aggrandisement of Herr Hitler himself. But as regards the men of our Dominions, they have abandoned peace, tranquillity and happiness to risk the dangers of this conflict. We cannot repay them and we cannot adequately thank them, but I think this is not an unsuitable occasion for us to express our great admiration.

3.53 p.m.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX)

My Lords, my noble friend has asked me to say a word or two in reply to the speeches that have been made on the Motion laid before your Lordships by the noble Lord opposite. I will begin by making one observation that was evoked by the last words that fell from the noble Marquess who sits on the Benches opposite, and I would say to him that, whatever the contributions which may be made from time to time by others of your Lordships' House in these debates—and certainly His Majesty's Government will welcome any contributions which any of your Lordships at any time see fit to make—we should hope that they would not have the effect of depriving us of the ripe wisdom which we are accustomed to glean from the noble Marquess.

The noble Lord, Lord Snell, began by some reflections upon the part that it is in the power of Parliament to play in these times in which we find ourselves to-day. With everything that he said on that count I most fully and most unhesitatingly agree. This war in which we are unhappily engaged is a war in which the whole people of these islands have to play their part, and Parliament, as the representative of the whole people, has also its vital part to take. It is, as the noble Lord truly said, an example of the strength and the innate reserve virtue of free institutions that at such a time as this Parliament should be taking its part in the spirit that, as far as my experience goes, has never failed the British Parliament when need was there. It is a remarkable tribute to the spirit of liberty and the power which that spirit can exert. We have only to contrast it with the news, appearing in the daily Press of to-day, of the different effect that results from the attempt to impose an alien domination on a proud and gallant people, to see what we owe to that spirit of liberty, and its effect upon the spirit of our people.

That is from another angle, as the noble Lord said, greatly reinforced, as it is further illustrated, by the response of the Dominions to which he referred; and I would add another illustration which is as present to the mind of every one of your Lordships as it is to me: the response of the Princes and the people of India. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Maugham, spoke with most moving directness and eloquence from recent experience of the feeling in Canada, and I have no doubt whatever that everything he was able to tell us on the strength of his own personal experience is equally true of all the other Dominions.

We shall therefore, I hope, continue the practice, if it is found convenient to Parliament, of making a statement, in whatever form it can be made, as full and informative as possible week by week. We shall give to this House and to another place all the information that it is in our power to give, and in the course of these debates shall do our best both to give any further information that may be possible and to profit by any suggestions that your Lordships may from time to time be moved to make.

I agree with the noble Marquess that it has been one of the major tragedies of these last two or three weeks that we should have had to watch the resistance of a gallant nation overborne without ourselves being able to render such direct assistance as might have had effect in producing a different result. Every one of us feels that—I have felt it every hour and every moment of the day through all these days. But I have also felt that, having undertaken this great task, we must not lose sight of our main objective in this war, which is to achieve the victory that we seek. Nothing that did not directly contribute to that victory, or indeed that to any degree at all militated against it, ought to be undertaken for any less compelling reason. With regard to Russia, I think that the noble Lord opposite, if I may respectfully say so, was wise in holding his judgment in suspense at the present time. Certainly I would not wish to-day to add anything to the statement that my noble friend made yesterday, upon events of which we do not, I think, as yet appreciate the full significance.

The noble Lord opposite spoke of the anxiety caused to him, and I fancy to all members of your Lordships' House, by the reports reaching us of some immediate increase in unemployment, and he expressed some regret that associated with the War Cabinet was not a distinguished economist. It would not, of course, be for me to express any opinion about the composition of the War Cabinet, but I can assure him that the Cabinet is not wholly deprived of economists' advice, even though no distinguished economist may be sitting as one of that number, and I can assure him that His Majesty's Government have all those questions very much in view. I have always thought that it was probably inevitable that in the immediate dislocation of all life involved by the transition from peace to war there must for a time be an increase in certain directions of unemployment, but I do not believe that that is likely to be other than quite temporary, for the reason that the demand for labour of all sorts is bound to be intense, and with the demand for labour, both skilled and unskilled, and with the spirit of our people what it is, I cannot believe that it will be any long time before any labour temporarily displaced will find itself in demand. We must remember that the war, after all, is not yet three weeks old, and that the period of adjustment therefore has not been long.

I wish to make only two other observations. The impression that was left on my mind by the statement that my noble friend made to the House yesterday on behalf of His Majesty's Government was, I hope, not different from that which was made on the minds of other of your Lordships. That impression was this. I see a picture of all the great strength of this country in every field, in its Defence Services, Navy, Army and Air, and over the whole field of industrial and civilian effort, being gradually marshalled and organised, and coming into shape, and making its weight gradually more and more felt. In certain directions of home defence, civilian defence, as my noble friend suggested yesterday, and as I think the noble Marquess said to-day, it may well be that after further experience some revision may be possible, and may be found advantageous. But when we contemplate that picture I hope your Lordships will also have in mind the essential contrast between on the one hand the organisation of a State which has been for years past prepared, planned and ordered for one purpose, and which was accordingly ready at any given moment to discharge that purpose—prepared for offence—and on the other hand a State that had only been prepared for defence, and which accordingly requires time and preparation in order to turn the capacity for defence into the capacity for offence.

That is the contrast that has existed between those with whom we are now engaged and ourselves, and I am quite sure the successive debates that we may have in this House and in another place will satisfy the people of this country as to the manner, and I hope the pace, at which all our effort is moving steadily along over a wide front. It will be the duty of these debates to satisfy this House, and through this House the country, that that is in fact so. In that connection I take note of what the noble Lord opposite said might be in his mind—namely, that he should at the appropriate time raise some discussion in this House upon the matter of supply. So far as I am able to speak for His Majesty's Government I can assure him that we shall welcome such a debate whenever it suits him to bring it forward. We think we are doing everything in our power in that direction, but his object and ours in that matter is exactly the same, and if he can suggest and prove to us that means exist by which better results can be attained, I can assure him that nobody will be better pleased than His Majesty's Government. I do not think I can add anything this afternoon to what has been already said, except to thank your Lordships for the spirit of this debate which—I end as I began by saying—will confirm to the whole country and the world the full and complete unity of purpose, and the quality of the resolution, by which our people are inspired.

LORD SNELL

I would like to thank the noble Viscount for the reply that he has been good enough to make to the observations that have been made. I beg your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.