Lords Sitting of 14 September 1939

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

WAR AND CIVILIANS: GERMAN DECLARATIONS.
3.5 p.m.
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: My Lords, I understand that it would be for the convenience of the Foreign Secretary if I were to put now a question of which notice was given in the course of the discussion yesterday, and my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition has been good enough to agree to that being done. I desire to ask the Foreign Secretary if he can state what answer was given by the German Government to President Roosevelt's appeal on the subject of the bombing of civilian populations and the use of gas and bacteriological methods of warfare.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Viscount opposite and to the noble Lord who leads the Opposition for giving me this opportunity to supplement what I was able to say yesterday. On the question of gas, if I may deal with that first, the position is that our Ambassador in Berlin, when asking for his passports from the German Government, presented a Note inquiring whether Germany would observe the terms of the Geneva Gas Protocol of 1925, which prohibits the use of poisonous and asphyxiating gases and bacteriological methods of warfare. The German Government have now replied in the affirmative to this inquiry, through the Swiss Minister in London who is in charge of their interests. With your Lordships' permission I will read a translation of this answer, which is quite short:
"The German Government will observe for the duration of the war the prohibitions which form the subject of the Geneva Protocol of June 17, 1925, and are mentioned in Lord Halifax's Note of September 3, 1939. It reserves full liberty of action in the event of the provisions of the Protocol being infringed by the enemy."
On the other question of President Roosevelt's appeal, I find that in addition

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to his words in the Reichstag on September 1, which I quoted yesterday, Herr Hitler did in fact send a reply to the President through the United States Chargé d'Affaires in Berlin. Your Lordships will no doubt be glad to hear its terms, although I understand it has already been published. These are the words:
"The view, expressed in the message of President Roosevelt, that it is a humanitarian principle to refrain from the bombing of nonmilitary objectives under all circumstances in connection with military operations corresponds completely with my own point of view and has been assumed by me before. I therefore unconditionally endorse the request that the Governments taking part in the hostilities now in progress may publicly make a declaration in this sense. For my own part I assume that you have noticed in my Reichstag speech of to-day that the German Air Force has received the order to restrict its operations to military objectives. It is a self-evident prerequisite for the maintenance of this order that opposing Air Forces adhere to the same rule."
3.9 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, before we leave this question I would like to ask the Foreign Secretary a question, but as I have not given him notice if he does not wish to answer it I will immediately accept what he says, but I think he will be able to reply and it is not a question which should embarrass him in any way. Does he understand from the German Declarations which he has read to your Lordships that this applies to all fronts or only to a war which might, at the moment those declarations were made, be expected between the German Government and ourselves? I ask that because I understand that not even now has there been a formal declaration of war by the German Government on Poland. I think it might be useful if the noble Viscount could inform your Lordships whether he reads into those declarations that the war, so to speak, is indivisible, and that the same rule should apply to all fronts, even if there has been no formal declaration of war, as in the case of Poland. I apologise for putting this question at short notice, but I also spoke at short notice and briefly yesterday, and some of my noble friends and some supporters of the noble Viscount pointed out to me that I had appeared to suggest that we should not engage in reprisals unless we were attacked, and that this might be misinterpreted abroad among our Allies as seeking to humanise
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the war on our own front, and being indifferent to what was happening on their fronts; whereas I need hardly tell your Lordships that, like every one of your Lordships, I regard an attack on any of our Allies by illegal methods as an attack upon ourselves.
VISCOUNT HALIFAX: My Lords, I cannot, I am afraid, claim to have any more information or knowledge as to the precise meaning of this Note than is available to any one of your Lordships as appearing on the surface of the terms of the Note. But, so far as I can form a judgment, in reply to the noble Lord, there is certainly no limitation expressed or, I would have thought, implied in the terms of the Note; and indeed the wording makes reference to "the Governments taking part in the hostilities now in progress." I would have thought, reading the Note as a layman, if any restriction of area had been in the mind of the speaker, it would almost certainly have been expressed.

MINISTRY OF SUPPLY (TRANSFER OF POWERS) (No. 2) ORDER, 1939.
3.13 p.m.
THE MINISTER FOR THE CO-ORDINATION OF DEFENCE (LORD CHATFIELD): My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved. I do not think it is necessary for me to say more than that this Order transfers legal and Ministerial responsibility for the Government reserve of petroleum for civil purposes from the Board of Trade to the Ministry of Supply under the Ministry of Supply Act. It is the last of the commodities dealt with under the special machinery of the Essential Commodities Reserves Act left to be transferred. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Chatfield.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

HAMILTON BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

THE WAR SITUATION.
3.14 p.m.
LORD SNELL LORD SNELL rose to call attention to the statement on the situation made yesterday by the Leader of the House; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House yesterday generally welcomed the statement that was made to it by the Leader of the House on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and that statement seemed to me to be far too important either to be ignored or discussed without some little opportunity for reflecting upon what it contained. I therefore placed upon the Order Paper the Motion that stands in my name in order to enable those of your Lordships who may wish to do so to make any comment upon the statement. It was in my mind also to ensure that the ordinary machinery of Parliament should be kept in working order, and to provide an occasion for the Minister of Information, if he should wish to do so, to make any statement about his own Department. I would like at this stage to say that my regard for the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, is too great to permit me to congratulate him upon the office that he has assumed—a most harassing responsibility. Therefore I merely assure him that he has the good will of all of us and, as far as our opportunities allow, we shall be glad to give him general support.
The statement made to your Lordships' House yesterday was, as I have said, important. I desire to speak about only one or two things that it contained. It was, first of all, good to know that the Supreme War Council had been established at this early period of hostilities, and one may be permitted to hope that many mistakes and misunderstandings such as occurred in the last war will in consequence be avoided. We welcome the fact that from the very beginning it will function, as we hope, happily, and will, as the result of its labours, secure a shorter period of hostilities. I would like to say, secondly, that the news from the Commonwealth was as good as it could possibly be. If the aggressor based his actions upon the expectation of disunion in the British Empire, he has already suffered a great disillusionment. The British family on this occasion, as always, stands together, wishing ill to no man, but resolved to defend those values
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which are the very breath of its common life. The losses at sea which were mentioned were such as might have been expected to happen. The fact that they did happen is proof, as I see it, that Germany knew the precise hour, so to speak, at which hostilities would break out: that she had prepared to strike at a particular time. We may hope that that initial advantage, so secured, will quickly pass away.
It is also good to know that the "confetti warfare," as it has been called, of dropping information instead of bombs upon the German people has been a great success—so successful apparently that the German Government, so afraid of truth, threaten with death anyone seen to pick one leaflet up and to read it. I have not seen one of these leaflets in the original. There seems some strange hesitation in letting us know precisely what did happen, but, so far as I am entitled to judge the English translation, it seemed to me first of all to be too long, too donnish and stiff, and without punch. It seemed to require the hand of a practised journalist or seasoned propagandist to say the neat thing in the fewest possible words.
The only other matter I desire to touch upon is the Ministry of Information itself, and I say these words less as a criticism than as an encouragement to the Department to grow up as quickly as possible. At present it would appear to be like a child afflicted with rickets, not precisely knowing how to walk about the earth. If I might venture in the presence of the noble Lord to offer advice, it would be that the principle of the Department should be that all news that it is safe to give should be provided for the people in the quickest possible time. The morale of the nation is a very important factor in warfare, and if that morale were allowed to droop the consequences might indeed be serious. We have been told that soldiers fight upon their stomachs. It is equally true to say that nations fight upon their spirit, and that spirit has to be maintained.
My own observations permit me to remark on this occasion that the spirit of the English people during the past weeks has been a wonderful thing to behold. There has been no panic, no sense of illusion, but a deep realisation that this grim thing has to be seen through, and that all trials necessary must be borne

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cheerfully and bravely. The most precious quality, as I see it, has been a power to separate the truth and the half-truth from the wholly or the partly false, and to grip the central fact and to hold fast to it. Now these qualities residing in our people justify the Ministry of Information in giving to them whatever information can safely be given. I have not heard uttered one word of hatred towards the German people or any expressed desire on our part to deny to their country a proper place in the world. With quite clear vision our people seem to be able to put the responsibility precisely where it lies, upon that group of adventurers who have attained rule and power in Germany itself.
It would be a very generous act to refrain from any criticism of the Ministry of Information this afternoon, and if I were a perfect person I should rise to that occasion; but I feel that it is necessary to say that the early activities of this important Department of our national defence are not entirely satisfactory. If the story of the last few days occurred as an incident in a stage burlesque it would, I think, make a very funny entertainment. Advice is given by the Ministry of Information to the Press to do this and that. The Press, as you know, humble and obedient, always gets on with its work; then the order is suddenly countermanded, and the persons with papers have them seized, and then, amid all the wreckage, there comes a sound of "Ali Clear" and the thing goes on as though it had never been. This is no criticism of the Minister of Information. I would like to say that in my judgment it will require all his powers to discipline the at present unorganised and perhaps wilful people with whom he has to live and work. I know that the Ministry of Information must be dependent on the good will and the co-operation of all the other departments, but my judgment is that there must be unity of command, that the Ministry of Information is in existence to give the information, and it cannot be side-tracked by departmental zeal. I venture to hope that the noble Lord, with the shrewdness that we all know resides in him, has made it clear that he intends to be master in his own house. If he is not, then I hope he will leave it as soon as possible.
In saying this, I am not primarily concerned with the convenience of the Press. Those gentlemen can look after themselves, and they usually have the last word. I think that they never feel a grievance so keenly as when it falls upon themselves. But nevertheless they exist to perform a great and important service, and their functions, so long as they are properly performed, should be respected. I should like to ask the Minister of Information whether it would be within his power, if he thought it advisable, to provide the House with a few practical facts about his Department, perhaps one or two illustrations of how its work runs, and what we may expect from it. Finally, I would like to say a word about the future. If we are to have weekly statements of progress such as we had yesterday it may not, in my judgment, be always necessary to have a debate following them, but at the present time the supply of news has scarcely begun to trickle through the provided channels, and the knowledge that Parliament is performing its proper function in the community may give to the public both comfort and assurance. It is for that reason that I placed the Motion on the Paper that I now beg to move.
3.29 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I merely desire to touch on one or two points arising out of the statement made by the noble Earl yesterday, a few of which have already been dealt with by the noble Lord who has just spoken. In the first place, I wish to express my satisfaction with the fact that the Supreme Council has held its first meeting. I can do so perhaps with deeper feeling than most people because I well recall the similar meetings which were held in the early years of the war in 1914 and 1915. Those meetings were thoroughly cordial but not intimate even on the military side. Although we know military conversations had passed, there was not that degree of intimacy between the two armies which exists at present. I am happy to think that now from the very first the closest relations both on the political side and the military side will exist between those who take part in those conversations, which I trust will occur fairly frequently. Then the noble Lord, Lord Snell, spoke of the prompt response which we have all observed by

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the Dominions and Commonwealths to the call which has been made. That was only to be expected, but I think that the result has even surpassed our expectations. It is also well to call attention to the free response made by the Colonies and not least—I might almost say more than any—by India.
One other point on which I would say a word is one to which the noble Lord, Lord Snell, devoted some part of his speech—that of the quota of information. My noble and learned friend Lord Macmillan is in the rather dangerous position that all men speak well of him. He has been welcomed from every quarter in taking up his most important office. It is surely difficult to overrate the difficulty of the task which he has undertaken. The public demand for news has been for many years past stimulated—and a severe critic might say vitiated—by the output of exciting and amusing news which the popular Press has distributed not only to this country but to the whole world. It has come to be the case with many that nothing can be really regarded as news which is not either exciting or amusing, and it is evident that in making communication of affairs concerned with the war the Ministry of Information has in the first place before everything to think whether any risk attaches to the publication of such news. It is surely better that readers should feel that they are dissatisfied or even bored by the information which they receive on a particular day than that anything should be allowed to pass out which might be even of the slightest danger to those engaged in the war. Subject to that, I am sure we should all agree with what fell from the noble Lord, Lord Snell, that so far as possible everything which can be published ought to be published and, published as soon as possible. I think a great many of the complaints which at different times have occurred have arisen from the delay in giving information rather than from the character of the information itself.
That is all I have to say on that particular topic, but I should like to touch for a moment, if I may, on the question raised by my noble friend beside me. The noble Viscount the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs was obliged to leave the House and therefore I do not expect that any speaker on behalf of His Majesty's
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Government will desire to pursue this particular subject of the bombardment or punishment of civilians by armed forces. We all know that only those who are commissioned or enlisted in the armed forces of a country are entitled to bear arms and to take part in a war. Those civilians who are not so attached do so at the risk of their lives and do not receive the immunities, such as they are, which the regular forces when taken prisoners can claim. But that is not an excuse or a reason for a general infliction of punishment, if that is the word, or reprisals upon an entire civilian population.
The question has assumed a different aspect since the invention of bombardment from the air, but it is not altogether a new question. In the Franco-Prussian war there were cases in which, as reprisals against franc-tireurs or sabotage of the invaders' resources, penalties were inflicted not merely on those who were immediately engaged, but in some cases on the whole population, or the greater part of it, of some particular village; but, of course, since the possibility of destruction from the air, the situation has very much altered. Now we have not been told—His Majesty's Government have not stated—that it is in fact the intention of the German Government in Poland to enter upon the indiscriminate destruction of civilians and their houses and their goods, and the noble Viscount stated in the most suitable terms that if any such policy were pursued His Majesty's Government, and no doubt the French Government, would be prepared to take the appropriate steps in reply.
No doubt distinction would be drawn against an isolated case of such unwarrantable action and the introduction of a systematic policy, carried out throughout the whole country. Therefore I think His Majesty's Government are absolutely right in not attempting to define, at present, the nature of the steps which might have to be taken, but I am sure it is a comfort to everybody to know that they are prepared to resist by all practical means—not, of course with any idea of entering into a competition of cruelty, because that would be altogether impossible from our point of view, but by exercising such severities as might have to be employed in resistance to such atrocious dealings on the part of the enemy.
3.42 p.m.
LORD CAMROSE: My Lords, the Ministry of Information is going to play such an important part in the long struggle which lies before us, and is of such intimate importance to the newspapers which I represent, that I claim the privilege of saying a few words this afternoon about this Ministry. In the first place, what has happened up to now has not given any great satisfaction to newspapers or news agencies. Before war broke out, there were innumerable conferences between the Home Office, which had the work of constructing this Ministry, and representatives of the newspapers and news agencies. At each of these conferences, serious objections were taken by these representatives to the methods which it was proposed should be adopted in forming the Ministry, and as to the personnel to be employed.
Nothing of any great satisfaction was received by the newspapers, and, to-day, what we have is a huge machine which has been fashioned and created on ordinary bureaucratic lines. It has been filled with civil servants of all kinds, acting in key positions. Not only is there the Minister, but there is a Director-General, a Deputy Director-General, Directors, and Deputy Directors, in all thirteen or fourteen, and we are wondering what all these people are going to do. There is an Advisory Council of twenty-two members, and that Council, I understand, has not yet met. The whole thing has been conceived on a scale which has amazed those whose everyday business it is to handle problems of the kind which are entrusted to the Ministry of Information.
On the other hand, the errors which have been made up to the present have not surprised Fleet Street at all. I do not propose to go into details of what happened in the newspaper offices on Monday night; but the House will be interested to know that the same news which caused this now celebrated blunder was first submitted to the Ministry on Friday of last week. It was then passed for publication, and appeared in the earlier editions of the newspapers. One hour later peremptory orders were given for its suppression, and the only difference from what happened on Monday night was that the police were not asked to go to the newspaper offices. The fact that there were British soldiers in France
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was known all over the world on Friday night. It must be admitted that every new Department is bound to make mistakes; but it is the likelihood of their recurrence which matters. That is the danger. My contention, and that of the newspaper Press as a whole, is that so long as the Ministry is staffed and controlled as it is now you will continue to have those errors of judgment and misunderstandings which have hampered not only our own newspapers but the representatives of papers in America and all important neutral countries.
Broadly speaking, the business and duties of the Ministry of Information constitute work which is being undertaken all the time in the newspaper offices of the country. When we get down to the practical character of that work, it resolves itself into the everyday problem of a responsible editor—what to print and what not to print, and to achieve decisions on these points without undue delay. Side by side is the task of issuing the news in a proper form, and of showing initiative and resourcefulness in the preparation of stories and statements which will attract and hold the public interest. What has been attempted up to now is to do all this with a large staff of people who have had no previous experience of any kind whatsoever. The results achieved are similar to those which you would expect if you tried to run a battleship with a regiment of soldiers. That is the reason for all these delays and censorship decisions which have caused universal trouble.
Actually, on this question of censorship, I very much doubt if, had there been no censorship in existence, except for purely military movements, there would have been any harm done. Meanwhile, censorship is still being conducted in such a way as to cause large and unnecessary costs to the international news agencies, thereby seriously injuring the proper flow of reliable news from this country, and opening the way to enemy propaganda, which is being pumped to every available source. Just before I came down here this morning, I received a letter from my correspondent in Copenhagen stating that the Danish Press is being swamped with German material and clamouring for something British. The quality of the British bulletins seems to leave much to be desired. Meanwhile

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the Germans give them colourful reports and photographs by the hundredweight. This is typical, I might say, of reports I have received from other neutral countries.
In another place yesterday the Lord Privy Seal said they were getting more journalists into the Ministry. I know myself of a number of hurried approaches which are now being made to subordinate members of newspaper staffs, my own among them. But it is not the slightest use getting these subordinates into the office unless the key positions, the actual control, is in the hands of experienced men who have occupied positions of similar responsibility before. It is these people who set the pace and control the machine, and until you place the actual work in the hands of men who know by practical experience how newspapers and the great news agencies work, you cannot expect to have a successful Ministry. Finally, I would say that I have the greatest possible admiration for the ability of the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, who has undertaken this very onerous task, and I share with Lord Snell to the full the sympathy which he has extended to him. He has had a machine thrust upon him which is wrongly constituted and wrongly manned. In my opinion, based on a lifelong experience of newspaper work, he has got to make the most drastic changes in the constitution and personnel of his Ministry before he has any chance of achieving success.
3.52 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN): My Lords, in rising thus early in my new capacity to address your Lordships, I should wish my first words to be words of appreciation of the kindly encouragement which has been extended to me by the noble Lords opposite and also by my noble friend Lord Camrose. I indeed require sympathy in the undertaking which has been confided to me, and I shall not be unmindful from time to time of the exhortations which I shall not fail to receive on all hands and of which I have already been the grateful recipient to an extent which your Lordships will understand. May I say at once that, as regards the general policy of the Ministry of Information, I am entirely in agreement with what has been said on all sides in this House and also in another place as to
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its true function. It is a Ministry of Expression, not a Ministry of Repression; least of all a Ministry of Depression. There is confided to it one of the most difficult, and perhaps I may say dangerous, tasks in wartime which any of us can discharge. Those who are entrusted with the active work of the war are engrossed in their responsible tasks. On the other hand, we who are civilians and are precluded from taking part in the actual operations of war are deeply concerned to know what is happening. It is our concern just as much as it is the concern of those who are fighting. It is a different matter for us. We enjoy greater safety and protection, but that leaves us more leisure to think and to brood upon what is happening; and nothing could be more dangerous than that we should be allowed to brood in ignorance and to be the victims of rumour and unofficial gossip.
Therefore, so far as in me lies, it will be my task to place before the people of this country and—in one sense an even more responsible task—before the people of other countries, the truth about what we are doing, what we are thinking and what we are hoping. But I have already realised the difficulty, first of all of obtaining the information and secondly of presenting it. One can understand that those who are engaged in the actual work of war are reluctant to talk about it or to waste their time, as they might say, in providing me with news about it; but I think in a democracy like ours, even the fighting Services will have to become publicity-minded, not in the sense of disclosing anything of military value, anything that would be of comfort to our enemies or which would detract from the success of our own operations on land, on the sea or in the air, but remembering that there is a home front as well as a front of war, and that the maintenance of the spirits and the morale of our people is of almost as much consequence in its contribution to victory as the morale of our fighting forces. Therefore they must not be reluctant to help me in my task of giving to the public as much information as can possibly be given consistently with the exigencies of military considerations.
I am happy to say that some of the first and happiest of the contacts I have been able to establish have been with the fighting Ministries, and they have assured

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me that they will help me so far as they possibly can in the provision of news. But, of course, your Lordships will realise that a Ministry of Information in this country labours under a great handicap compared with a Ministry of Information at Berlin. I have had on my table complaints from foreign countries—complaints such as have just been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Camrose—of the flood of material which is being provided for Continental papers, neutral papers, upon all sorts of subjects—propaganda literature of one kind or another—and the comparative paucity of material which has come from our country. The handicap to which I allude is this, that most of that propaganda and most of that information is lies. I should rather that we gave less information and true information than that we should issue to neutral countries and to foreign countries a vast mass of material that is unreliable and untrue. While the eagerness for news just now is being satisfied by those often mendacious reports and propaganda, in the long run I venture to think the foreign Press will appreciate the fact that what they receive from us is authentic news and authentic statements only.
There are, if I may say so, several features about this war from the publicity point of view which are unprecedented in military history. In the first place, there is war in the air on a scale which no doubt has never occurred before. There were great exploits in the air in the last war, but the developments which have taken place in that arm are going to have a vast effect upon warfare for the future; and they have this peculiar effect from the point of view of publicity, that whereas a naval engagement or a land engagement is more or less a localised thing, the facts of which can be ascertained with comparative rapidity and therefore made known with reasonable accuracy in a short time, when you are dealing on the other hand with an air raid or an air engagement, owing to the vast speed of the aeroplanes engaged you may have the dispersal of the operations over a very, very large area, so that to get an accurate and complete account of what has happened may involve collecting material from places hundreds of miles apart, which must make it exceedingly difficult for the Air Ministry to get at once a complete report of what has
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occurred. That may make it, therefore, much more difficult to supply early after occurrences of that sort the complete news which one would wish to give, because to give untrue or unverified news is much worse than giving no news.
But on the other hand I felt this—and it is well to be concrete and not abstract in one's observations. If you take the case of the alarm which we had the other morning, well, nothing official was announced with regard to that, if I remember rightly, until after two o'clock in the afternoon, and I learnt in the course of that morning that rumours of all sorts were abroad—that Margate was in flames, rumours that a great amount of damage had been done—and much anxiety and distress were occasioned. I made it my business to inquire as to the position. I found that it had not been possible to get complete information with regard to what had occurred early in the morning at the time when the "All Clear" was sounded, and that nothing was accordingly issued until everything had been verified sufficiently to make an official pronouncement. But—I think your Lordships will agree with me that I was right—I suggested that on occasions of that sort it is not necessary to await the full and official report of all that has occurred. If it is known, for example, that after an alarm of that sort no damage has been done and no lives lost—if that is an ascertained fact—that can be made known at once and public anxiety allayed, and it can be said that further details, as they come along, will be made known. And I think that the view will now be taken that, so far as it is possible to issue at once information that will assuage public anxiety, that can be done, if the public will have patience to await the fuller details. That is one difficulty that is going to confront us with regard to news of a military character.
Another feature, which is, of course, a novelty in this war, is the existence alongside the Press, the great organ of publicity, of the new means of publicity, wireless. That has created a whole series of new problems from the point of view of publicity; and among the earliest problems that have fallen to me to consider has been the problem of seeing that vis-à-vis the wireless, the British Broadcasting Corporation—which, of course, in its competition with the Press has enormous advantages, because it can go on all

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day and all night, and at any time—could not be allowed to prejudice in any way the reasonable rights of the Press, whose services at this time are more valuable than they can ever be in times of peace. That has been one of the problems of accommodation which I have had to take in hand.
There are many other difficulties to deal with. I have alluded to the difficulty of obtaining information, the peace-time reluctance which is so often felt by the official mind to provide news about what it is doing. But there are also very difficult mechanical impediments; after all even the air has its limitations as a vehicle of news, and even the ether can be occupied. The cables are limited, the apparatus is limited, and the competition at this moment for the use of those various vehicles of transmission is enormous. And one of the grievances and difficulties which it is my business to attempt to remedy is the fair apportionment of those facilities among the many people who are clamouring for their use. I have been able, I think, to achieve something there by seeing that Government publicity—that is, the matter that has to be transmitted for State reasons—shall not always have priority, because there are Government announcements which are not of an urgent character, and may very well be delayed; whereas no one knows better than your Lordships that stale news is no news, and we should assist as far as we can those who are transmitting their news to get it away as quickly as possible. I think we have been able to arrange a considerable mitigation of that difficulty.
There are also questions arising in this shape: I have a feeling—I hope your Lordships share it—that although at the moment we can give comparatively little war news, because there is comparatively little war news to give, it will be right to give our people such information as we can on subjects relating to the war, not necessarily relating to military activities. People in this country are at the moment in a state of disturbance, many homes have been broken up and many families separated; the routine of many lives is disturbed and a spirit of anxiety and sometimes of distress has been created. In these circumstances it is of the utmost importance that our people should have something to interest them, something
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that they can talk about, because they all want to talk about the war, and there are many things about this great national endeavour which are of real human interest and would furnish, I venture to think, many interesting topics of conversation. I have this morning, accordingly, had an opportunity of meeting several of my fellow Ministers, and have arranged with them that I should be the interpreter of their activities to the people. They are doing a great many things that the Government Departments in this country have never done before, and many of those things are exceedingly interesting. They provide topics of conversation which will interest and divert the minds which otherwise might merely remain in gloomy moodiness.
Here is the sort of thing which struck me at once as of interest, and which should be told. Last week the first claim to a pension in this war came in. The Minister of Pensions told us that the following day it was settled; within twenty-four hours of the pension claim being made, it was verified and settled. That is the sort of thing that people like to know has happened—that the Pensions Department is actually functioning, and is prepared to deal with claims as they come in, and deal with them quickly. Things like that are worth publishing. But there are a great many other things constantly happening, and I hope we shall be able, through the medium of the Press and of broadcasting, to give quite a picture to the public at home here of things that are happening, things which are of interest to them, and which can be told without in any way giving comfort to the enemy, or assisting the enemy in any way whatever.
I hope that in future we shall be able to do that, and also to give guidance upon a number of those puzzling things which are distressing the consciences of a great many people at the present moment as to what one might call the proper conduct of oneself in the war. A very difficult question is as to whether you should spend money or not spend money. The consciences of us all have been exercised just now by that type of problem. Then, even little things like going out at night in the dark, whether you should be allowed to use a torch or not—these are the things that people talk and think about. I am glad to say that already that matter has been taken

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up, and we are to be allowed to have a little kindly light for our feet, though whether it will lead us "o'er crag and torrent" I do not know. Things like this should be told, and should be told in comparatively simple language. It is so difficult for official communications to be other than official. No official could ever talk about taking a 'bus, he is always "employing means of transport." One should, in my Department, as far as possible explain things which are being done and arrangements which are being made in comparatively simple language, even at the sacrifice of that precision which I admire so much in our Government publications, but which, in another capacity, I have so frequently had to interpret.
Your Lordships would, perhaps, wish me to say, not in exculpation at all of the staff to which I have succeeded, but in explanation of the kind of things we are doing, that in the relatively short time which this Ministry has been in existence quite a number of things have been done largely to their credit rather than to their discredit. For example, on this important matter of assisting the Press to handle war news, arrangements have been made with the War Office to send down a General Staff officer of high rank to give confidential talks to accredited Press representatives at the Ministry at weekly intervals. Officers of similar rank from the Admiralty and the Air Ministry will come down to talk to the Press confidentially on set occasions, but whether these will be weekly or not we have not arranged. The Press are appreciative of seeing an actual officer in uniform who will speak to them responsibly on these matters in a way that I, as a civilian, cannot do, and answer technical questions and assist them in their problems. That is a real improvement and ought to be a real help to the Press. In the next place, we have arranged with the Service Departments that each of them shall nominate an officer of high rank to be detailed to my Ministry to act as advisers and suppliers of authentic information on military matters. I have already mentioned that I have concluded arrangements with several of the other Ministries for information upon matters of general interest to ourselves at home which I hope to be able to furnish to the Press.
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Just to give your Lordships one or two concrete examples of the kind of problems, a difficulty has arisen about photographing in this country. Much discomfort and dissatisfaction reached my ears as to the treatment of Press photographers. I am glad to say that the order which the Secretary of State for War issued prohibiting the taking of photographs of any kind of military subject in this country has been mitigated in this sense. Arrangements have been made only this morning with the War Office which will get rid of the trouble and which, I am glad to say, representatives of the Press accept as satisfactory. In effect, it means that any photographer who has been duly approved by the Ministry, and has received a permit from us, will be exempt from the prohibition provisions of the order on the understanding, of course, that his photographs will be subject to the usual censorship. That, I understand, has met the difficulty. We have also been able to make quite a large number of improvements in the means of issuing news from this country to foreign countries, and details of these were given in another place by the Lord Privy Seal yesterday.
Reference was made, and not unnaturally, by my noble friend Lord Camrose to the unhappy incident of Monday night. I do not wish to conduct a post mortem on that occurrence. It was most regrettable, and it ought not to occur again; but I am bound to say, in explanation at least of the part played by the Ministry of Information in this unhappy incident, that we were informed that there might be a general release of messages emanating from France relating to the arrival of British troops there. So far as we were concerned, that absolved us from regarding such an item of news as objectionable for military reasons. When that was subsequently cancelled from the same source, we had no alternative whatever but to rescind the publicity which we had already permitted. That is the explanation of the unfortunate incident of Monday night.
It has exhibited, and exhibits flagrantly, if I may say so, just what Lord Camrose has drawn attention to, that there ought to be far closer liaison in these matters so that there will not be a case of shilly-shallying about an item of news of that sort. Anyone who knows the conditions under which newspapers are produced—

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I have a little knowledge of these matters—can understand the confusion and upset which must have resulted from stopping newspapers which had been not only set up and printed, but also partially distributed, when the stop order came along. I sympathise entirely with the newspaper Press in their indignation at what happened on that occasion, but I should like to point out that the circumstances in which it happened were very exceptional indeed, and there is no probability, so far as I can help it, of a recurrence. I can only, on that matter, express our regret that they should have been put to much inconvenience.
All of us, I am afraid, will in this war suffer inconvenience and difficulties of one sort or another. We will make errors, and probably my Department is more exposed to the possibility of error than any other because of its peculiar position and peculiar duties; but I hope your Lordships, at any time when you feel any dissatisfaction with the methods of publicity of this Ministry, will assist it with your criticisms. I for one say at once how much I shall welcome those criticisms. I have spent all my life in the receipt of criticism, and it does not dismay me at all, but rather encourages me. I know that the criticism of these matters which I shall receive will be friendly criticism, and no friendlier action than friendly criticism is known to me. In conclusion, I would like to say I have to ask for some indulgence. Your Lordships will bear with me as a very new Minister who has only had a few days' experience. As regards the staffing and management of this undertaking, I am having a thorough overhaul made, but there are only twenty-four hours in the day, and it is difficult in so short a time to give complete satisfaction
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in an entirely new Ministry; but it will be my best endeavour to give to the Press, to foreign countries, and to Parliament such aid as I can in this difficult enterprise.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Lord for the very illuminating statement he has made, which I am sure has been welcomed by the whole House. What he has found it possible to say to us has fully justified the Motion that I placed on the Order Paper, and which I now ask your Lordships' permission to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
3.19 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, it will only be necessary to hold a formal sitting of your Lordships' House tomorrow in order to take the First Reading of four Bills which will come to us from another place, including the Bill I mentioned yesterday for the control of employment. I propose that we should take the Second Reading of these Bills on Wednesday of next week, and the remaining stages on Thursday, followed by a Royal Commission. I propose, therefore, apart from the formal sitting to-morrow, that we should adjourn from now until Wednesday, and our meeting on Wednesday will be at four o'clock instead of three. The formal sitting tomorrow will be at four o'clock, and then, as I have said, we shall meet again next Wednesday at four o'clock also.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past four o'clock.