§ 3.28 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government a Question of which I have given them private notice—namely, whether they are now able to give any further information as to the sinking of the s.s. "Athenia," the casualties, the number of survivors, and in particular the cause of the disaster.
§ EARL STANHOPEYes. Statements have now been taken on oath from the Chief Officer and numerous survivors, both British and American, which enable a fuller picture to be given than was possible on Monday. I regret to inform 1006 your Lordships that the disaster may prove to be of greater magnitude than was indicated by earlier reports. As far as can be ascertained, there were on board 1,418 persons, of whom 315 were crew and 1,103 were passengers, some 800 of whom possessed British or European passports, and over 300 possessed passports of the United States of America. It is now clearly established that the disaster was due to an attack, without warning, by a submarine. At 7.45 p.m. local time on the night of Sunday, September 3, a torpedo struck the ship abaft the engine room on the port side, when she was 250 miles north-west of the coast of Ireland. Soon after the torpedo struck the ship the submarine came to the surface and fired a shell which exploded on "C" deck. The submarine cruised around the sinking ship, and was seen by numerous persons, including American survivors who have given affidavits to this effect.
The House will realise that owing to the nature of the disaster accurate details of the number or the names of the victims cannot yet be ascertained. No estimate can be made as to how many were killed at the first explosion, nor as to the numbers drowned by the reported capsizing of several boats after the passengers had taken to them. Survivors have been picked up by two British destroyers, by the steamships "Knute Nelson" and "City of Flint," and, it is hoped, by a Swedish yacht. At present some 125 passengers and crew are unaccounted for. It is still possible that a number of these may be aboard the Swedish yacht. Every effort is being made, by wireless and otherwise, by the Admiralty and the Donaldson Atlantic Line, the owners of the ship, to ascertain the names of the survivors. The s.s. "Athenia" was not defensively armed—she carried no guns, and her decks had not even been strengthened for this purpose. The House will wish me, I know, to convey on their behalf our profound sympathy with the relatives of those who may have been bereaved by this outrage and also to those who at this moment are racked with the anguish of uncertainty and suspense.
LORD STRABOLGIMy Lords, on behalf of my noble friends, may I associate them and myself with the expression of sympathy which has just fallen from the noble Earl? May I ask him two further questions? First, what steps His 1007 Majesty's Government now propose to take in view of this atrocious crime? The noble Earl will remember that he said the War Cabinet would be considering this matter and would take the necessary steps as soon as the facts were established if they proved to be as it was originally believed they were. We want to know what is being done about it. We place great importance upon that as upholders of International Law. I speak for all my noble friends and for the whole of my Party. We do not just want expressions of outrage. We want this sort of thing stopped, and there is international machinery for bringing it to an end. That is a matter that requires very careful legal and diplomatic consideration. The noble Earl is better aware than I am of the means which exist for that purpose. I do not speak of reprisals. I speak of legal machinery for bringing these crimes home. I must not be taken, on behalf of my noble friends, as advocating reprisals, though they are not ruled out if they are of a legal, recognised kind.
The second question is this. I know what the answer will be, but it is just as well that the public, and the seafaring community in particular, should be quite certain. Is it not a fact that the seamen and officers who were lost in the course of their duty, injured or killed, are entitled to compensation under the emergency legislation we have passed during the last few days, despite the fact that the ship sailed before the outbreak of hostilities?
§ EARL STANHOPEMy Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's first question, I am not yet in a position to say what action the War Cabinet are proposing to take in the matter, but of course, as he himself said, there is one thing we certainly shall not do, and that is attack merchant ships belonging to the German nation in the way in which they attacked the "Athenia." Such other steps as will be taken will, I trust, prove adequate, but that is not one of them, as the noble Lord is the first to recognise. As regards the second question, I think I am correct in saying that undoubtedly these officers and men in the "Athenia" are covered by the legislation we passed a few days ago. I have not had time to look into the matter, because I did not know the noble Lord was going to raise it, but I am perfectly certain that from the moment the 1008 crisis began, whether a ship had sailed or not, it would be covered by the legislation your Lordships agreed to recently.
LORD STRABOLGII am much obliged to the noble Earl. I am sorry I did not give him notice that I was going to ask this question, but time was rather pressing. May I remind him that my noble friends and I raised this question of compensation being made retrospective in this way, and that a satisfactory assurance was given by the Government that they believed that to be the case? Therefore there should be no difficulty.
§ EARL STANHOPEI do not think there is any doubt, but we have passed so much legislation in the past few days that it is difficult to keep it all in mind.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYMay I ask my noble friend at what time the disaster occurred?
§ EARL STANHOPEAt 7.45 p.m. on Sunday, September 3.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYThat would establish the fact that it was broad daylight, and that all the statements which have been obtained are obvious facts.
§ EARL STANHOPEIt was getting towards evening, but there must have been plenty of visibility, particularly at sea.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRYVisibility must have been perfect because this was two hundred miles west of Ireland, which means two hours difference. I want to emphasize that to show that the statements made by the witnesses are obvious facts.
A NOBLE LORD: It was 7.45 p.m. local time.