HL Deb 31 October 1939 vol 114 cc1590-6

4.54 p.m.

LORD NEWTON asked how many British and foreign civilians have been interned since the declaration of war; how many have been released and whether such releases were recommended by the Advisory Committee; and whether it is possible to state approximately the length of the period during which appellants are usually detained in custody before their cases are dealt with by the Advisory Committee.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I understand that the number of aliens interned at the present moment is approximately 700. This is a number which is very much smaller than was the case in the last war, when several thousands were interned. The discrepancy is explained by the fact that in the present war, so far, fortunately, there is no conspicuous hate. I think that the absence of hate, which we must all welcome, affords the explanation. The absence of hate, which, as I say, fortunately prevails at the present moment, is I think due mainly to the fact that in the former war we treated our prisoners with humanity and consideration. It was a great gratification, not only to me but I expect to everybody else travelling on the Continent after the war, to find that our humane action with regard to prisoners was recognised by the enemy countries themselves, and nobody had any complaint to make against us on that score.

I think I can safely assume that the authorities who deal with alien prisoners at the present moment are just as humane as those who dealt with them twenty years ago. I am not going to make any general complaint against them. But there are one or two criticisms which I do feel disposed to make. I have a strong suspicion that there are a certain number of men shut up without cause, who really are perfectly harmless and innocent. An alien is dealt with by one of numerous bodies of what are called "one man" tribunals, of which I think there are more than a hundred. When you have to choose as many people as that for a business of this kind, it is extremely probable that you will find amongst them a few—not many, I hope—who are incompetent and who make serious mistakes. That there are occasionally very serious mistakes made, I gather not only from correspondence which I have received but from cases which I read in the newspapers. I observed in The Times last Saturday that there was a case reported—a London case—in which it appeared that the alien, who was a perfectly harmless poet or musician or something of that kind, was unable to speak English and that the president of the tribunal was unable to speak German; it is almost incredible, but there was no authorised interpreter in the court at all, and it was with great difficulty that the proceedings were conducted. When they were finally closed, the president of the tribunal sentenced the man to internment. When he was asked why he did it, he refused to give any reply, probably because he did not feel quite sure that he had done the right thing.

A man of that kind seems to be quite unfit to deal with cases involving imprisonment; and I am bound to say that, in the solitary case of which I have any knowledge, I was not at all impressed by the responsible authority. I happen to be acquainted with a young German who came here to do literary work, and in the course of his work he had to consult me. He had been in the country for several years, having fled from Nazi persecution, and he was very anxious to become a British subject. I should have thought he was the last person who would have incurred suspicion, but, feeling apprehensive that if there was war he might get into trouble, I wrote to him and said I should be quite prepared to give evidence in his favour and to give any guarantees that were required. When this man appeared before the tribunal, which was in London, although I could have been at the court in, say, ten minutes, the President of the tribunal never thought it necessary to call my attention to it, whereas I consider that if a respectable person—and I hope I may be allowed to include myself in the list—offers to give unlimited guarantees, the least one can do is to hear what he has to say. I flatter myself that, if I had been able to approach this functionary, I might possibly have persuaded him not to intern the man. What did happen was that he was interned, he has been interned for a month and he cannot succeed in getting his appeal attended to; he hears nothing at all. I cannot help thinking that there must be a certain number of similar cases which are extremely unjust and disagreeable to all concerned. That is one of the criticisms which I desire to make, and I hope that if any one of these authorities does make any egregious error of judgment, or does anything particularly stupid, attention will be called to it by the high legal authorities, and that, if necessary, he will be removed.

The other criticism which I desire to make is with regard to appeals. I said at the beginning of my remarks that there are 700 aliens in internment at the present moment. Any alien in order to obtain his freedom has to run the gauntlet of the committee entitled the Advisory Committee; his appeal goes to them. They consider it, and if they recommend his release, then he is released. Against this Advisory Committee I have nothing to say. I should say that the members of the Committee are extremely competent people, they are presided over by an eminent lawyer. But the Committee only sit four or five days a week, and up to now, although the war has been on something like two months, they have only disposed of forty appeals—owing, I believe, to various accidents. But the Committee tell me that the maximum work they can do is to dispose of twenty appeals in a week. That means eighty appeals a month. There are 700 aliens to deal with, and we may safely presume that the great majority of them will appeal. Of course, there are certain unfortunate people who are so poor that they are quite glad even to be in an internment camp, and there may be others—not many, I expect—who would like to return to Germany, in which case I should hope the sooner they are got rid of the better.

But the vast majority of these people undoubtedly will want to appeal. In certain cases it may take months and months before the appeal is ever dealt with. I wonder how any noble Lord would feel if he had been interned by some ignorant person, he being perfectly innocent and knowing that he could make no appeal for months and months. I do not like to criticise without making any suggestion to improve matters, and it occurs to me that in view of the fact that the Committee can only work very slowly, surely the natural thing to do would be to appoint another committee to help them. If that idea is not approved, then the alternative might be considered of having a kind of visiting committee, which would go to the two camps. There are only two camps of importance, one at Seaton in Devonshire, and the other in Edinburgh. These people could go to the camps, and a great deal of time and trouble could be saved in that way. I imagine the difficulty would be that the members of the Committee would naturally much prefer to do their work in London. But in any case I must say I think it is little less than a scandal that a man who in all probability is perfectly innocent should be kept in an internment camp without any chance of putting up any defence or getting a reply to his application. I do not propose to compare it to Nazi methods, but I certainly think it is an instance of undue harshness—involuntary harshness—and that it ought to be remedied by either adding fresh committees or finding some means by which appeals could be more quickly dealt with.

I would venture to point out on the general question that nobody now desires to see a lot of civilians in confinement. In the last war it was quite different, and the sensational Press distinguished itself by continually vociferating, "Put every Hun behind barbed wire and we shall win the war." That idea does not prevail now. We have grown more sensible. There is nothing whatever to be gained in any case by shutting up a lot of civilians, most of whom are probably harmless, and I think the noble Viscount, Lord Cobham, would agree that the people who would rejoice most to see the number of alien prisoners reduced would be the War Office and the Army, because a pure waste of energy is involved, and they feel that the men who are employed in guarding these prisoners might be doing something much more useful. I am advocating this very modest reform solely on the ground of humanity; but there is another side to it, and that is the political side. We are always being told, whenever a statement is made by a member of the Government, that we are not fighting the German people but the Nazi Government—that Government which, without exaggeration, can be described as a curse to civilisation and a danger to the whole of Europe. We know perfectly well that a large proportion of the German people are bitterly opposed to the Nazi régime, just as much as we are ourselves. It seems to me that we ought to differentiate clearly between the two classes. Let us make it plain once for all that we have no quarrel with anti-Nazi Germany. The best way that we can show our sympathy with those people is to make the hardships from which they are suffering under present circumstances as light as possible, and I believe the results would be beneficial to everyone concerned.

5.8 p.m.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL DE LA WARR)

My Lords, I think all of us who look back to the last war and remember the services that the noble Lord, Lord Newton, performed with regard to this particular subject will realise that no one has a better right than he to speak on this matter. He is jealous, as I think all your Lordships must be jealous, of the reputation of this country for fair dealing with the problem of enemy aliens. He referred to certain rather exaggerated feelings that we certainly had at the beginning of the last war, but which nevertheless did not lead to our losing our reputation. And with regard to this war, he has reminded us that we have not now got those feelings that made certain people say that every Hun should be behind barbed wire. I think we should all agree that there is nothing to be gained by such an attitude. What is the position to-day? We have, as the noble Lord said, something like 106 local tribunals, before whom in the first two months of the war approximately 13,000 enemy aliens have appeared. Of those 13,000 just over 900 have been interned, but included in that figure of 900 are, I think, a number of war prisoners, or rather, men who have been brought in from captured German merchantmen or removed from neutral ships. Of that 900, 150 have appealed against the decision of the local tribunal. Thirty-seven were released almost immediately without their appeals going before the Advisory Committee because it was clear, on investigation, that they should be released.

The noble Lord has made certain suggestions. He has mentioned the fact that in one or two cases, of which he has personal experience, he considers the treatment of the enemy alien has been harsh. My own experience of refugees in whom I have been interested is that they have been very generously treated. The noble Lord mentioned a particular case in which he had himself offered to go guarantee for the gentleman. I do not know the details of that case, but I cannot help feeling that it is in some way extraordinary that the noble Lord was not called to give his testimony. It would have been quite natural not to call him if the case was to be passed through and the appellant was not going to be interned. I should certainly like to look into the details of the case because, prima facie, I should have thought the complaint of the noble Lord was by no means unjustified.

The noble Lord also mentioned the lack of interpreters. He will be glad to hear that it has already been arranged that interpreters should be available for all tribunals. He made the further suggestion that there should be another Appeal Committee. He mentioned that there have been delays, and that of these 150 appeals only forty had been dealt with. There is no doubt there have been delays. It was probably bound to be so before the machinery got into operation, but I can assure the noble Lord that the Committee is catching up with its work. Even if it does go ahead at a quicker rate than it has been able to do in the past, my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is not convinced that it will be able to proceed sufficiently quickly, and he is therefore, at the present moment, considering the appointment either of a second Committee or—what really amounts to the same thing—having the same Committee to sit in two divisions.

LORD NEWTON

Do I understand the noble Earl to say that only 150 appeals have been received?

EARL DE LA WARR

That is the figure I have in my possession. I would not like to be taken as in any way committing my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, at the moment, to the appointment of a second Committee, but I can say he is considering it, and considering it very sympathetically, and he is also considering the question of the same Committee sitting in two divisions. These are the only points the noble Lord has raised, and I hope he will feel on the two particular proposals he has made—namely, the appointment of interpreters and the appointment of a further Committee—the case he has put is being favourably considered.

LORD NEWTON

My Lords, I rise only for the purpose of thanking the noble Earl for his statement. I understand he will be good enough to convey my suggestions to the Home Secretary.

House adjourned during pleasure.

House resumed.