Lords Sitting of 11 October 1939

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
FINANCE (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act; read 1a; and to be printed.
COURTS (EMERGENCY POWERS) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
EDUCATION (EMERGENCY) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment: the said Amendment considered and agreed to.
EDUCATION (EMERGENCY) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment: the said Amendment considered and agreed to.

CENSORSHIP CONTROL OF NEWSPAPERS.
3.6 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government what restrictions there are on the entry of foreign newspapers into this country and particularly of American newspapers; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Government the Question which I have on the Order Paper. I had expected the Minister of Information to deal with this matter, but perhaps it is as well for him to have a rest from criticism at the present time, and now, through the usual channels, I hear that the noble Viscount, Lord Cobham, is going to make his maiden speech in your Lordships' House in answering on behalf of the War Office.
1336
We all saw his appointment with pleasure, especially those who knew the excellent work, if he will allow me to say so, that he did as Chairman of the County Territorial Associations; and, though I congratulate the Government on acquiring his services, I give him my personal commiseration and look forward to his reply to this Question with great interest. It is significant, however, that it is a matter for the War Office what newspapers shall be allowed to come into and go out of this country, and I understand that that is because of censorship.
What has prompted this inquiry of the Government is an extraordinary state of affairs, of which your Lordships are probably aware. Apparently respectable citizens are not allowed in certain cases to take British newspapers abroad. I drew the Government's attention to some letters which appeared in The Times newspaper. I need not read them all to your Lordships, but I refer particularly to those which appeared under the date of October 5. The first was from a Major Robertson—he must be a respectable citizen or his letter would not be published in The Times; they even publish my letters sometimes. He explains how, on his outward journey to France, The Times and other London newspapers and magazines, which he had brought from Victoria on his journey, were confiscated before he was allowed to embark, and twenty paces further on, at the other end of the gangway, the same newspapers were being sold on board the ship. He describes how, on his return, he threw overboard before he disembarked all his French, Dutch and Belgian newspapers and then, "shining with conscious virtue," submitted himself to the Customs examination, only to find that "criminal tendencies are not easily suppresed even by the will to repentance"—I quote from the letter; I am not capable of such flowers of speech. The Customs authorities took from him a novel which he had not taken out of his suitcase. This was apparently by a writer called P. G. Wodehouse, who, I understand, specialises in his novels in the doings of the less serious members of your Lordships' House, and is, I believe, a well-known humorist. This was apparently a suspicious book and had to go up to Liverpool to be censored there. The writer of the letter also explains that he had with him a brief case

1337
with eight or nine pounds weight of typewritten documents, but these were not examined.
In the same issue it is described how Spanish newspapers coming to this country have been stopped, how immense numbers of American publications are being held up in this country, apparently by the Ministry of Information at Southampton, not the War Office. Usually the Minister of Information says that everything that goes wrong is the fault of the War Office, and so perhaps in this case the noble Viscount will put the blame on the Ministry of Information. At all events, a great many newspapers from America are being held up at Southampton. And so it goes on. Among other cases a well-known Belgian journalist who works in London, returning from his own country, had all his Belgian and French newspapers taken from him. I understand the official explanation is that newspapers might be a means of conveying secret messages between spies and agents of the enemy. I understand that that is the theory. If it is really a case of preventing illicit communications from going to the enemies of this country, then we have nothing to say, but we want to be quite sure that the War Office are not setting themselves up as judges of what is healthy and wholesome for the British people to read. There can be no question of news in American newspapers being dangerous or conveying information to the enemy because they can obviously get them direct, and anything appearing in the American newspapers is equally available to the German Secret Service as it is to our own.
There may be the physical difficulty, I agree, of examining each package of newspapers to see that letters, for example, are not hidden between the pages in order to escape censorship, but we want to be certain that there is no attempt to prevent outside information and opinions from foreign countries reaching the British public. I hope the noble Viscount and the Government appreciate this point, on which my Party feel very strongly. We are prepared to collaborate in preventing any information reaching the enemy, but we refuse to be hoodwinked ourselves and denied information as to the opinion of neutrals and even of our Allies. That is the point really that worries us.
We have some reason for anxiety in a statement which appeared in the News Chronicle yesterday. It referred to the piles of American magazines seized under the Imports Restrictions Regulations, and then went on to refer to the American magazine Time which has been held up, and the fact that the publishers are making arrangements for individual copies to subscribers in England to be posted in Chicago to obviate delay. I do not know how that is possible, but I dare say arrangements can be made to have all these magazines sent here, provided there is no ulterior object in stopping them. The next paragraph is curious, if I may read it to your Lordships:
"The News Chronicle was informed yesterday that the Board of Trade has asked four of the leading firms importing American magazines and newspapers to submit a short list of periodicals which accurately reflect American public opinion, with a view to granting licences for their import in bulk."
With great respect I am not content to allow the Board of Trade to judge what newspapers accurately represent American public opinion, nor am I content to let the War Office judge what is good for me and my colleagues to read in the American newspapers. We want to know what people are thinking about, and what does appear in the American newspapers, and in the newspapers of other countries. There is, also, a great deal of disturbance to trade because traders cannot send their catalogues or even their Christmas cards abroad to our own Dominions without a great deal of delay.
I dare say at the beginning of a war there is bound to be some confusion, even under such a marvellous Government as this. There is bound to be here and there a gap in the arrangements. That we can understand and excuse, and we do not want to make too much of it. But on the main suspicion, if I may so describe it, that there is an attempt to prevent the British public from having access to the foreign Press, we beg leave to ask for an assurance from the Government. It is with that object that I have put down this Question, and I now beg to move for Papers.
3.15 p.m.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT COBHAM): My Lords, may I first of all thank the noble Lord opposite for the very kindly welcome he has given to me in my new post? The matter he has brought before

1339
the attention of your Lordships' House is of such universal public interest that I am sure he will forgive me if I deal with it in some detail, as also with the other matters to which he has referred. The noble Lord began by inquiring why the War Office should make this reply to his Motion. These restrictions, for censorship purposes, were first set up under a statutory order under the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, and the actual order that sets up this control was dated September 6. That order follows the line that was adopted in the last war, only of course it has been far more stringently drawn that any order made during the last war. Censorship powers are exercised under this order, and the order itself is made over the signature of the Secretary of State for War.
The order forbids the sending or conveyance into or out of the United Kingdom without a permit of any newspaper, book, map, photograph, or other similar article, except through the post, and forbids the sending of such articles by post without a permit to certain specified countries. The list does not include France, the United States, the Dominions, the Colonies, or India. As has been explained by the Financial Secretary, in answer to a question in another place, it has been decided that the best way of exercising the necessary censorship control in regard to newspapers is to confine their import and export to firms whose bona fides has been verified, and who are being given permits. Owing to the very large number of applications for permits, there has naturally been some initial delay in their issue, and in the meantime the newspapers are being allowed to enter the United Kingdom without censorship check, whether imported in bulk or by post.
The import of newspapers is also governed by the import licensing arrangements, regarding which the following note dealing with newspapers from other countries than Germany has been supplied by the Import Licensing Department of the Board of Trade:
"Newspapers fall within the import licensing arrangements under the item books, printed matter, etc. The prohibition does not apply to newspapers imported in single copies through the post. An open general licence has now been issued in respect of both newspapers and press photographs so that no
1340
question of licences arises with such printed matter.
Licences, however, are required for books, periodicals and other printed matter. The general lines on which the Import Licensing Department is issuing licences is as follows:

(1) To license all periodicals in foreign languages. Consideration is being given to the restriction of the lighter kinds of literature.

(2) To license all scientific and trade periodicals and journals.

(3) In general refuse licences for other periodicals. Consideration is, however, being given in consultation with the trade and with the Ministries of Economic Warfare and Information to the question of the extent to which this rule might properly be relaxed.

As regards books and other printed matter accompanying a traveller, these are regarded by H.M. Customs as personal effects and do not require a licence."
Newspapers, like other goods, from Germany can only be imported in exceptional circumstances under licence granted by the Trading with the Enemy Branch.
In reply to a question in another place on the 9th October the Postmaster-General stated that newspapers from the United States and foreign countries generally are being delivered without delay on arrival in this country; that there is at present no censorship of United States newspapers; and that there was a gap recently of twelve days in which no letters or newspapers came to this country from the United States owing, it was understood, to the shipping strike in New York. The noble Lord further referred to a letter over the signature of a Major Robertson in The Times. Has not he given his own answer, and a perfectly right answer to that letter? The point is, of course, that any particular newspaper or book might be doctored. To allow articles of this kind to be taken out of this country by hand would be to allow an evasion of the censorship. The method of disguising illicit letters under the printed words, whether those words are printed in a newspaper or in a book, is very well understood, and has been practised for a great number of years. Even the well known Mr. Sherlock Holmes dealt with a cipher that was concealed within the blameless pages of Whitaker's Almanack, and surely the answer, when Major Robertson in his letter casts ridicule on the type of censorship that was being exercised, is that an ill-disposed person wishing to convey illicit information into or out of this country, not necessarily by the

1341
hand that is carrying it, would normally do so by disguising it under such form as a book by Mr. P. G. Wodehouse, and the more blameless looking the book, the more it requires to be censored.
I am not sure that I am fully qualified to give a complete answer to the noble Lord's question, but I am informed there is no question so far as the War Office is concerned of keeping out newspapers for the information that they convey on the face of them. The whole of the censorship that is set up under this order is merely to prevent the conveyance of illegal information. As I stated at the beginning of my reply, this order has been very stringently drawn, far more tightly than any order in the last war, and in certain directions it is not operating satisfactorily, so the War Office are now employed in drawing up a new order, which will, it is to be hoped, remove some of the more stringent disabilities in the original order of September 6.
3.25 p.m.
VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOOD: My Lords, I am very much obliged to my noble friend for the very full answer he has given on this question, and if I venture to ask him one or two questions on it, I hope he will not think that that is an ungracious proceeding, in view of what he has said. I am a little puzzled. I think he said in his earlier statement that books were not excluded, yet he justified the exclusion of this important work by Mr. Wodehouse on the ground that it might contain a secret cipher conveying important information. Evidently that could be equally true whether it came by post or in any other way. The truth is that you cannot exclude that kind of thing by that kind of measure. I do not know anything about Major Robertson, but supposing he was making himself the vehicle of a secret cipher, based on Mr. Wodehouse's works, to somebody in this country, why should he go through all that trouble? Why should he not go and tell the man, or when he got here write him a line, or anything of that kind? It does not appear to me to have any common sense as explained by my noble friend. I dare say it is owing to my stupidity and my not having followed what the noble Viscount said.
I only venture to add this. I do hope the Government will be a little careful about these orders and regulations that are coming thick and fast from Govern-
1342
ment offices. They do not do any good unless they really are necessary, and they certainly do harm by causing irritation, not in this case, which is a trifling case in itself, but in other cases, and by causing discouragement to the people of this country. It is very important that we should not, in our anxiety to avoid some hidden and very unlikely danger from abroad, cause a great deal of inconvenience to a number of people at home. I am sure that is a sound principle, and I beg the Government carefully to consider the matter, or otherwise we might perhaps have to create a new Ministry, the function of which would be to keep the other Ministries in order.
3.27 p.m.
VISCOUNT COBHAM: My Lords, I do not think I have anything much to add to what I have already said. The original order of September 6 does exclude practically everything that is printed. It would even exclude Christmas cards, and for that reason it has been re-drafted so as to remove some of the most stringent regulations which have been drawn up.
3.28 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I wish to thank the noble Viscount for his reply and for what he said about there being no desire to prevent news coming into this country for the information of the public. That is very satisfactory, and it is what we wanted. We are also glad to learn that the matter of restrictions and delay is being reconsidered. It seems to me that if you want to prevent an evilly disposed person from conveying information, you should prevent him from travelling at all, and, if I may be allowed to say this, if you want to stop him taking out messages while not wishing actually to prevent him travelling, you have to strip him entirely and examine him in ways I need not specify. May I tell the noble Viscount, if the House will permit me, of an episode that was related to me last Monday which is rather illustrative of this point, and which bears upon what the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil said, as to how you can overdo a thing of this kind and really defeat your own ends? An English lady in Berlin at the time of the Jewish pogroms last November, took pity on some Jewish people who wished to leave Germany later on and she, perhaps rashly, undertook to smuggle out a dozen valuable rings. She put these twelve beautiful rings on her

1343
fingers and proceeded to go out of Germany. At the frontier station of Aachen, the Gestapo had her stripped and searched, and the women searchers did not discover the rings. They searched all her effects and her person, but they did not tell her to take off her gloves, so she came through with the rings on her fingers. Well, we have a little Prussianism in this country also, and I am glad the noble Viscount is looking into this matter. Perhaps as he brings a fresh mind to these problems, he will see to it that we do not impose any unnecessary inconvenience on perfectly responsible people. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

REQUISITIONING OF HOTELS.
3.30 p.m.
LORD GREVILLE LORD GREVILLE asked His Majesty's Government who was responsible for commandeering hotels in various British spas for various Civil Departments. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting the Question which stands in my name I propose to be extremely brief, but I hope your Lordships will not think on that account that the matter about which I am going to speak is not important. Your Lordships probably have all read in the newspapers various letters from hotel proprietors and managers about the methods by which their hotels have been commandeered. There is no doubt that this commandeering at very short notice has caused considerable hardship, not only to the hotel keepers but to their guests and their staffs. It probably has caused also a great deal of unnecessary expense and in every way it has put people to great discomfort.
I shall probably be told that all this was necessary under the heading of secrecy. Well, I think it has been pretty well public knowledge for probably the last year that in case of emergency there would be a wholesale evacuation of various Ministries from London. I have here a letter written last May by a hotel manager who wanted to get information from the Ministry of Health about what was going to be done with his hotel. It was taken over, I think, in the last war and he wanted to take precautions in the case of the coming war, as it was then.
1344
So he wrote a letter explaining that he would like to look after the comfort of his guests and the welfare of his staff and make arrangements to move his furniture. That was last May. The first intimation he received was when a gentleman walked into the hotel, gave him twenty-four hours to clear everybody out, and proceeded to put labels on various bits of furniture which he thought might be useful. It does not need much imagination to know that it would cause the proprietor of that hotel enormous expense to get the furniture out at very short notice and dispose of his guests and staff.
The particular subject about which I want information has reference to spas and curative centres in this country. I think every one of your Lordships is aware that rheumatism and its kindred ailments are very prevalent in England and that every year some thousands of people seek treatment at these spas. Amongst those who seek curative treatment are a great many of our workers who are most useful in war time. You will find at these places always an enormous number of miners suffering from rheumatism, and you will also find a large number of men who work in the open air either on sea or land. That is the position in peace time Naturally when there is a war the number of these people is very likely to be increased. You take a large number of young men of more or less sedentary occupation from the banks and the Stock Exchange, from offices and shops, and put them into camps that may or may not be extremely dry, or you send them abroad to take their places in the trenches.
I think from the experience gained in the last war that it is well known that you will have in consequence a great many cases of rheumatism or its kindred ailments—neuritis, arthritis and other ailments connected with rheumatism. Rheumatism does not spare anyone, children, young people, middle-aged or old people. You will find in the case of children that there is usually some form of affection of the heart. I regret that my noble friends Lord Dawson and Lord Horder are not present to-day, because I know exactly their feelings on the subject. What I would ask the noble Earl who is going to reply to this Question is whether when this wholesale commandeering of hotels at spas took place any medical authority was consulted as to the

1345
problematic needs that would arise in case of war. I know the Minister of Health was consulted, but he was consulted because he had to commandeer lodgings. Most of these hotels were taken for use as offices and were commandeered by the Office of Works, but I understand that the Minister of Health occupied himself with commandeering accommodation for lodgings.
What I want to know is whether the military authorities—the medical military authorities—were consulted. I have no doubt the military authorities were consulted about whether the spots were safe for the various Ministries which were to be sent there, but were the medical authorities in the Army consulted? And were the medical men who live in these spas consulted about the likely number of people from various trades that are most essential in war time, like miners and fishermen and outdoor labourers, who would want treatment at these spas in war time? If they were consulted, can the noble Earl give me any idea of the accommodation reserved for men of the Fighting Services and for civilians suffering from rheumatism and the various ailments connected with it? I am credibly informed that in some cases there is practically no accommodation left. That is a very short-sighted policy, and I should like some assurance from the noble Earl that this matter has been considered from the medical side and not purely from the point of view of commandeering office accommodation for Government staffs.
3.38 p.m.
LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I should like to support the point of view that has been put before your Lordships by my noble friend Lord Greville. I wish to offer a suggestion for the consideration of the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, when he makes his reply. We are not dealing here with a matter in which there has been dishonesty or idleness. Those two things are quite beside our discussion. What we are faced with to-day is common puerile stupidity. You can deal with dishonesty, and you can deal with idleness, but you are almost helpless in the face of stupidity. The country is becoming exasperated on realising that here is a case of stupidity. Instances which come forward from time to time, to which I will draw your Lordships' attention if I can obtain your patience for a moment or two, have set going in the minds of the people a feeling
1346
that there is something wrong in the intelligence of some of those to whom Parliament has entrusted the carrying out of national policy. I would like to put forward evidence which it will be seen at once supports the view which my noble friend Lord Greville has set before us to-day.
I will not mention, because I do not know them, the names of hotels which have been unreasonably commandeered or requisitioned, whichever word is applicable. But your Lordships have perhaps read, I think on October 10 in The Times, of the case of a south-coast hotel which was requisitioned on September 23 and the owner's business smashed. He was told to empty the hotel by October 2—that is to say, in nine days—without having had convenient warning; and when he goes to complain and to protest and to ask for some consideration, he is told on October 4 that he need not proceed any further. That cannot be right. A case like that, I suppose, is indicative of what is going on. It is infuriating to the public, because that is a case of injustice, and nothing infuriates the people of this country more than to know that something unfair has been done. I presume the statement is true; if it be true, let us have more details.
For that reason I now ask formally that there should be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT certain information; and that would render it unnecessary for me to do what I had thought I would do: to put down a Motion for Papers. The cost of printing the list would be trivial, and the information is officially already in existence. I do not attach much importance to any plea for secrecy; everyone in various parts of the country knows the names of the local hotels that have been commandeered. I do not put any value upon a plea or a request for secrecy; I want to know the methods adopted and the names of the places, which are already known. I ask for a list of the 200 hotels and boarding-houses that have been requisitioned, to be printed in the OFFICIAL REPORT, with the date of the requisition in each case. I should like that list to include the number of persons which the Government Departments have placed in these hotels within seven days of the date of the requisition. I should then like to know the number of persons put by the Government into each of these hotels by October 4. Your

1347
Lordships' House can then judge whether or not there is a genuine case for complaint against the Minister responsible.
Of course Ministers are responsible; that is the proper practice of Parliament. We do not blame the officials; but that reservation could be taken a little too far. With a list available, the Minister now in charge of the Department can know for himself where the methods have been wrong. He cannot have known the names of the hotels to be requisitioned; there have been too many of them. He cannot have known where the hotels were and what was going to be done with each one of them. But when he sees the list, whether the Government print it or not, he will see whether there was justification for the acts of his officials, and whether it was essential to take each particular hotel. If he is able to approve, all well and good; if he is not able to approve of what has been done, he can come down, if he thinks proper, with a heavy hand on those of his staff who are guilty of stupidity, by transferring them to other Departments where lack of intelligence is not regarded as being of much importance. My noble friend in front of me, the Marquess of Zetland, asks me the names of those Departments. I have two in mind, but I do not wish to create jealousies, so I will not mention them!
There has been public reference from time to time—and I am glad to say it has been proposed in the other House—of the desire of certain members to set up a Committee of Expenditure Inspection. During the years I was in the other House, various Committees were set up. I will mention four: the Committee on National Expenditure—I was on that; the Committee on Estimates—I was on that; and for the most part of my time in the other House I was a member and sometimes Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee; and I was also Chairman of the Committee which reported with the result that the Disposals Board of the Ministry of Munitions was closed. From those experiences I know this: that, valuable as such Committees are, they are of little use unless they begin to function before expenditure has been embarked upon or folly has been committed. My experience of those Committees is that, if we are going to set up a Committee to watch expenditure and to prevent follies—and I
1348
support that idea and should like to see a Committee set up composed of members of the two Houses—it should be set up without a moment's delay, so that, by action in advance, it can prevent stupid things being done. Such a Committee would have wanted to know why and wherefore before each hotel or school was requisitioned.
To come to the particular matter to which the noble Lord, Lord Greville, has referred—namely, hotels: the Government Departments responsible must have known a year or two years ago that it was very probable that we should want accommodation. Where is the foresight, where is the imagination, where is the initiative? Why did they not plan to provide a useful number of hutments, or a few camps, instead of taking over in a hurry hotels and, worse than that, taking over schools, for Government Departments? The probable need for accommodation in case of war was known to those responsible. The Cabinet cannot be thinking of everything; there is a Department which should foresee and must deal with a matter of that kind when occasion arises. They knew at any time within these last twelve months that accommodation would most likely be required; and yet they do the very thing which we in business always try to avoid: doing anything in a hurry and at the last moment. They ought to have foreseen that it was necessary to lay down in advance a plan for the hotels in the particular places that would be required and, elsewhere, hutments could have been quietly made and kept quietly in reserve. If they did not foresee it, someone ought to be taught a lesson. This hotel muddle, and the muddle about spas which we shall want for the lives of our men who may be injured, if it is proved when we see the list, will show that the public are justified in describing some of the methods of some of the Departments as nothing else but incompetent Bumbledom.
I would draw your Lordships' attention to other cases which would substantiate my noble friend's complaint and indicate that there is a likelihood of stupidity being the reason for this muddle about the hotels and spas. There were certain things which, if there were to be the war which we feared, would have to be tackled; these things were known twelve months ago. Yet, vital and important as they were, they were apparently

1349
never foreseen and provided for, or if they were foreseen, they were foreseen with no imagination and no skill and scarcely provided for. The officials knew that the public must have food; yet the provision for fish distribution was a complete failure and a muddle. Why? It was not thought out in advance. That is one instance. The second is war risks insurance on stocks of goods; that was never thought out in advance. I was present at the discussion of the Association of British Chambers of Commerce a fortnight ago; we then found that the official scheme had apparently overlooked the factor of frequency of turnover in relation to the premium for insurance, that there might be a turnover of the goods more than once a year, that you had thus cumulative costs being put on to the goods at each stage of production and sale, sometimes honestly, sometimes, I am sorry to say, dishonestly. The price of everything that the Government used for munitions was put up, and that turnover factor also put up the cost of living. Yet it was known twelve months ago that if there were a war the goods of merchants and manufacturers must be protected by insurance, and the scale on which they should be protected by premium on turnover ought to have been thought out. It was merely an arithmetical sum.
Then we saw the chaos of the Ministry of Information, a muddle of the worst kind. We did not mind how many people they paid. Let them have 999 people so long as they operated properly and did what was required. The whole Ministry was a mess. It was not a question of cost. It did not function. Yet with foresight, everyone concerned must have known that in the event of war such a Ministry would be required with a working machine, just as the Government must have known in advance that accommodation would be required for their distributed staffs. There is also the muddle over the hold-up of export licences. Thousands of letters and requests for permits have been held up unanswered, through faulty organisation and lack of foresight and method again. Then there has been another case of stupidity similar to this hotel and school requisitioning muddle. It was known two, three or four years ago that if we should unfortunately be forced into war,
1350
it would be necessary to take a decision about the possibility of some scheme of insurance of buildings, even if a scheme could not be made. Anyway, the minds of those responsible would have to be made up as to whether there was any method at all for insuring property against the risk of aerial bombardment. That was absolutely essential. Yet up till to-day, notwithstanding the pressure put on the authorities, we have had no pronouncement by the Government upon that one way or the other. I mention that to show how unimaginative and how lacking in initiative has been the treatment of these vital matters, and what muddles have been made by Government Departments on possible requirements that were known months and years ago. The Weir Committee on the insurance of buildings was set up in a hurry and at the last moment. Even yet it has not reported to the public.
It is quite true that the Minister will be responsible for whatever are the shortcomings of his Department. But the nation will call to account those who are personally responsible for childish stupidities, and will not tolerate more of them without taking very stiff measures. I think, if I may be allowed to say so, that I could use even stronger language about the methods of requisitioning hotels than my noble friend Lord Greville has used; and that notwithstanding the plea for secrecy we should insist upon having it treated as a test case of the methods of Government Departments in this crisis. We should press to have the policy upon which Lord Greville's Motion is based probed to the bottom. I therefore ask for the hotel list with dates and occupants put in the hotels so that we can see what has been going on and why and how the muddle was made.
3.52 p.m.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR: My Lords, I notice that in the noble Lord's question he has used the word "British," which includes Scottish, and I should like to approach this subject from the Scottish point of view, which is very similar to that in England. We have had the same sort of treatment in Scotland as has been detailed to your Lordships by my noble friend Lord Mancroft. There are not only hotels concerned; there are spas—they do not call them spas in Scotland, but they are hotels to which people who want to get better go on

1351
account of the goodness of the air—there are hydros, there are even railway hotels on the coast as well as inland, which have been requisitioned with no notice at all to speak of, and no consideration whatever either for the proprietors or their employees. When the last unemployment returns were published, we were told that the increase in unemployment was only a temporary one, but these commandeerings are still going on without any forewarning to the managers or owners of the hotels, and at the same time various Ministers representing different Departments of the Government, not excluding the Chancellor of the Exchequer, implore employers not to dismiss their staffs but to keep them in work. Yet Government Departments are themselves the worst offenders in causing through their commandeering policy the dismissal very often of 700 people in a single case in which a hotel is commandeered.
The Government must have some sort of responsibility. They ask private employers of labour not to dismiss their staffs; they do not say anything about the extra Income Tax which prevents the employers being able to pay those employees; and they actually say also that if any employee has a grievance against an employer because he is not paid properly he can go to the trade board. Where the money is to come from with which to pay the employees, they do not say. The employers are asked not to dismiss their employees and yet every week during the past five weeks the Government have been taking action which causes the dismissal of employees who are without any prospect of being re-employed, at any rate for the time being.
It has already been suggested that hotels and their managers or owners, including railway shareholders, who as usual have received no sympathy, are not the only ones to suffer. I can quote the case of a very well-known school where the bureaucratic representatives of the Department concerned came down and cleared out the school, without any notice to speak of, and told them to go to two houses fifteen miles away and they then put a Civil Service Department into the school. Why could not the Civil Service Department go into the two houses fifteen miles away? There can be no reasonable answer to that question. Then those of
1352
us who read our Times will have noticed that it applies not only to buildings but even to that noble four-footed animal the horse. Horses are being bought at prices a long way below their value, not because there were not other horses of not such great value which could have done the work for which they were required just as well, but because there would be a few miles further to go to see them. It is not fair on the various horse breeders that the horses of only one man in a district should be taken; the burden should be distributed amongst the various horse breeders.
The thing which we in Scotland feel so strongly about, as well as those in England, is the method by which these commandeerings are carried out. No sympathy is shown; no plan of campaign is arranged beforehand in order that it may be done gradually. As my noble friend Lord Mancroft, who has just spoken, said, these things have been, or at any rate ought to have been, foreseen for more than a couple of years, and yet no plan has been worked out in order that as little hardship as possible should be inflicted. In short, although praising, as the Allies do, our democratic methods, yet one would almost think that we are under a veiled dictatorial régime, having regard to the way in which these representatives of the Government carry out their—I am not going to call them duties because I do not think that they have any duty to do what they do. They have no idea of decency to the public, and if they themselves were treated in the same way as they treat their fellow-citizens, they would be the first to cry out.
The same applies to the way in which people have been treated due to the transfer of children and their mothers into country districts. The people who have had to take them in have found that the promises made to them have not been carried out. Those people have had to supply their own mattresses, their own pillows and their own blankets, and in a great many cases those articles have had to be destroyed. What compensation are they going to get? They were all told that they were going to get these goods from the Government, but not a single one has arrived in my county at any rate, and I do not suppose that any have arrived in any other county either. Then you have hospitals commandeered with

1353
perhaps 3,000 beds for patients of one sort and another, and I remember one case in which there was only one bed occupied. That is not the way in which to show our sympathy with those with whom we have to deal. I suggest that representatives of the various Departments should be told that they have got to act at least in a gentlemanly way, and not in an autocratic, bureaucratic or dictatorial way. The feeling throughout the Kingdom is very bitter on this subject, and if the noble Earl the Leader of the House can offer some prospect that this sort of thing is going to end, and that those who have exercised their stupidity instead of their wisdom in this matter will be told that they must behave in a different way in future, and that they may perhaps be asked to apologise to those whom they have considerably inconvenienced, then I think some of us would feel a bit happier than we do. But most certainly something ought to be done to prevent a continuance of this sort of thing, and to compensate these hotel keepers—not from public funds because that would only add to the taxpayers' burden—for the loss and inconvenience to which, through no fault of theirs, they have been put.
4.1 p.m.
LORD GIFFORD: My Lords, I should like to say a few words in support of the Motion of my noble friend Lord Greville. I will not detain your Lordships long because I feel that the ground has been very ably covered by the noble Lord and the speakers who followed him. I think that the main complaint which any right-thinking person would make about this commandeering of hotels is that methods have been adopted which, to use a common expression, have unnecessarily put people's backs up. Possibly one reason for that is that the commandeering has been left in the hands of officials who are too junior in position, instead of being entrusted to people of higher standing, who would have done this work with tact and consideration. In some cases a great deal of inconvenience could have been avoided if some of these hotels had been taken over as messes and barracks for the officials who are being evacuated, because in many cases these hotels have remained empty and provide no suitable accommodation for the staffs that have to use them. Hutments could easily have been put up for the offices, and the hotels could have been used for the accommodation
1354
of the staffs. This would have avoided the necessity of discharging large staffs, and the hotels could have kept going through the war as messes, and could easily have returned later on to their peace-time occupation. If circumstances permitted certain rooms could also have been released for members of the public.
This commandeering of hotels in certain places has been so overdone that it is even impossible for officials who have to visit these towns on Government business to find accommodation for themselves for even one or two nights. To give an instance of the really unnecessary hardships to which people have been put, in a certain hotel I know of a family had lived for fifteen years, and had had a suite in a certain isolated part of the hotel, which they had furnished themselves with most beautiful furniture. If there had been an official of higher standing there, who could have been appealed to, he could have said, "Oh well, this particular suite will not be urgently needed for two or three weeks. We will give this family a chance to evacuate quietly and to store their valuable furniture and pictures." But no extra consideration at all was shown to them, and they were treated just like a commercial traveller who is there for one night. I do see, of course, that if things had turned out differently and we had been subjected to aerial bombardment immediately when the war started, this evacuation from London would have had to take place very quickly, but at the same time I feel I must support what my noble friend Lord Greville has said, because the method has been wrong, has caused unnecessary hardship, and has given very justifiable annoyance to a great number of people.
4.5 p.m.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, debates in your Lordships' House often wander over a considerable field, but the Notice on the Paper refers to the commandeering of hotels in various British spas for various Civil Departments. We have had a broadside attack on the Government from several noble Lords, including one who appears here in uniform, which I am bound to say is unique in my experience. But I am certainly not going to follow some of the noble Lords who have spoken in attacking the Government

1355
over what is described as the "fish muddle," the Ministry of Information, export licences, war risk insurance, the compensation payable on evacuation, and other matters of that kind.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Earl, but I understood him to criticise a member of your Lordships' House for addressing your Lordships while wearing uniform. I do not know if he meant that seriously, but I suggest it raises rather an important question of Privilege. We may all of us appear in uniform at any time. The noble Earl himself is fit for military service, and has great talent in that respect, and I should hate to think that we might be deprived of his services on that account. Will he give a ruling?
EARL STANHOPE: I am certainly not prepared to give a ruling, but, as the noble Lord will remember very well, there was a Motion passed in another place as regards the members of that House, and it was then asked whether a similar rule applied here, and the Government of that day—by no means this Government; I think it was ten years ago—said that undoubtedly applied to all members of Parliament, and that they should not take part in debates on political matters while they were serving in His Majesty's Forces.
LORD STRABOLGI: This is a rather important matter. Is the noble Earl aware that last week we had a very interesting speech from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Birdwood, who appeared in the full uniform of a Field-Marshal, and no objection was taken to it? Is not a Lieutenant-Commander equally allowed to address your Lordships?
VISCOUNT SAMUEL: Does the noble Earl draw a distinction between speeches made in criticism—very mild criticism in this case—and speeches made in support of the Government?
VISCOUNT SWINTON: Is it not a fact that during the last war on many occasions, and particularly when important debates were going to take place in Parliament, members of both Houses who were serving with the Forces were given special leave to enable them to attend Parliament? It seems to me a most astonishing proposition.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I should like to confirm what has fallen from the noble Viscount on the Cross Benches (Lord Swinton). I was certainly under the impression that no objection could possibly be taken, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has said, the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Birdwood, in the full Service dress of a Field-Marshal, made a valuable contribution to a debate last week. I hope that the noble Earl will agree that there could hardly be an objection to one of your Lordships appearing in His Majesty's uniform.
LORD GIFFORD: I am only a very junior member of your Lordships' House, but I would like to say that I am now serving in a Department of which the noble Earl, Lord Stanhope, was recently the Minister, and I am also trying to run a business of my own and do my duty in this House. As a serving officer I am quite aware of the rules concerned with the wearing of uniform during war time. I have been to the Admiralty this evening, and hurried up with my job there and asked permission of the Director of my Department to come down for three quarters of an hour to take part in this debate, which I felt was important. I feel therefore I am justified in appearing in this uniform.
EARL STANHOPE: I apologise to your Lordships. Undoubtedly I was wrong in this matter, and I say so quite frankly. I had forgotten what had taken place in the last war, of which I am now reminded, and the noble Marquess opposite, of course, is perfectly right. I need hardly say that whether noble Lords are in uniform or otherwise, I am always glad to welcome criticism when it is helpful, whether it is against the Government or against any other Party. After all, we are all united in our object of winning this war at the earliest possible moment, and if noble Lords come in uniform to help us towards that object, that is, of course, something to which no exception can be taken. I apologise to the noble Lord for having said what I did, because undoubtedly I was wrong.
Before replying to the specific Question raised by Lord Greville, I should like to give your Lordships a general background as to the measures the Government had to take in requisitioning hotels and also, I am sorry to say, a certain number of

1357
schools. I need hardly say that not only I but every member of the Government is extremely sorry that this became necessary at all. We realise that it imposes a great deal of hardship on individuals, sometimes on hotel proprietors, but even more on their staffs who are turned off and left on the unemployment register, very often finding it difficult to get a job. I need hardly say also, as a past President of the Board of Education, that I did not welcome having to commandeer schools for these purposes. Let me just remind your Lordships of the situation. Someone quoted that last May a hotel manager was warned that his hotel might have to be taken and he could not get any further information.
LORD GREVILLE: It was the other way round. The hotel manager wrote in May for information.
EARL STANHOPE: That strengthens my point. He wrote and asked for information. We are told the Government are unimaginative and stupid because that information could not be given. How many of your Lordships knew last May there was going to be war? I for one did not, and certainly every member of the Government, so far as I am aware, hoped, to the very last moment, that there would not be war. The matter, of course, did not lie in our hands but elsewhere, with an individual over whom we had no control. But so far from this thing having not been foreseen, I can say it was recognised that if war came it might become necessary to evacuate Government Departments out of London—at any rate part of them—and to evacuate them perhaps in a great hurry. That was realised no less than three years ago. The matter was considered by an Inter-Departmental Committee formed under the Committee of Imperial Defence. It was reviewed from that time onwards, and reconsidered by these senior officials—not junior officials—and also considered subsequently and often by Ministers.
Your Lordships would agree that it was only an elementary measure of prudence that the Government should take such steps as they felt might be necessary in order to enable the Government to function. Government Departments do not consist only of the three Fighting Services and the A.R.P., but include all those great Departments which are dealing
1358
with the Social Services—such matters as old age pensions, health insurance, national savings, housing, to mention but a few. Nobody knows what the effect of air raids would be. The Government may be lacking in imagination, and no doubt Lord Mancroft feels fully justified in his criticism when he tells us, as he did, that war risks insurance is merely a question of arithmetical calculation. I wonder how far he is prepared to say what damage is going to be done in London by air raids?
LORD MANCROFT: Forgive me. That was not my arithmetical point. What I said was that there was no decision made one way or the other and there was this hurry at the last moment by the Weir Committee. I take it my noble friend is talking about damage to buildings, not the turnover factor omitted from the war risk insurance on stocks of goods. The insurance of buildings against air raids had to be decided one way or the other in order that building societies might know where they were and in order that manufacturers and traders and householders might know where they were. We have got this flop in and flop out in the delay in considering what should be done, and even now, the Weir Committee has not published a decision. We manufacturers were able to come at least to some conclusion. We might have been wrong, but we gave a scheme to the Government for insuring buildings. We made up what we are pleased to call our minds, but the Government have not.
EARL STANHOPE: There I disagree. The Government have already stated that, apart from what Lord Weir's Committee may say, they feel this is a matter that cannot be dealt with on an arithmetical basis. What damage may be done is a question of supposition. Nobody can foresee when an air raid may come or what the effect may be, whether of one air raid or of a series of air raids over a long period. Your Lordships will realise, with problems of that kind, that the Government were bound to take steps to see that the work of Government Departments should go on. It was not only a question of the destruction of Government buildings or of records and so on, which might have meant holding up the whole work of old age pensions, say, which affects the lives of many thousands of old people throughout the country; but

1359
the mere taking cover during air raid warnings might so interfere with the work of the Government that very little work might get done at all. Therefore the Government had to take steps, in the same way as almost all the large business houses have done in London, to see that alternative accommodation was available.
May I give your Lordships some idea of the size and complexity of this problem? Government in these days is a very complicated business, due less to the failings of this and previous Governments in increasing staffs than to the pressure both inside and outside Parliament to see that the Social Services are administered to the very best possible advantage and that every kind of case is foreseen and dealt with. The result is that staffs, of course, have increased and increased over a period of years until now they run into very many thousands. I confess I was startled and surprised when I heard what the figure was. To find alternative accommodation for that vast number of people was of course a tremendous problem.
It was quite useless to think of moving these staffs from London to some other great city such as Birmingham or Manchester, because obviously they were just as liable to be bombed there as in London. Therefore you have to go to provincial centres, and when you go to provincial centres your difficulty is, where are you going to find large buildings? Your Lordships may say, "Why large buildings?" Anybody who has had to deal with administration knows, of course, that if you are going to scatter the staffs in a number of buildings separated by several hundred yards or more, then administration not only becomes very much more difficult and very much more expensive, but really almost impossible, in these days when decisions have to be taken quickly on a whole number of new problems such as a war must always throw up. The only buildings where you could find office accommodation which enabled staffs more or less to work together were very large buildings such as hotels or schools. If your Lordships had been faced with the situation that here you had to find accommodation for this vast number of members of Government Departments, and to do it at comparatively short notice, you would have realised that that was the only way in which the problem could be dealt with.
1360
I may be asked—I think Lord Mancroft did ask—why, if this was foreseen, were not camps built for that purpose? I wonder if the noble Lord would have welcomed the First Commissioner of Works coming down to another place at any time, we will say, this year and saying it was necessary to have alternative accommodation because a war might happen, and then asking that a vote of several million pounds should be made by another place in order to make those camps available. At once the Government would have been told in effect: "Very well, you think that peace is past praying for, and war inevitable, and therefore that this great expenditure must forthwith be undertaken." I do not think either another place or your Lordships would have welcomed a move of that character. The officials concerned did their best to warn hotel proprietors that it was possible their premises might be required if war should happen. That was as far as we could then go, and it was not until the 3rd of September that notices were given—the 3rd of September being the day of the outbreak of war—to these various people, saying that unfortunately the Government thought it necessary to requisition their hotels in order that they should accommodate the personnel of Government Departments. The requisitioning began on the 7th, four days later.
I am quite certain from what I know of the Civil Service—and I have served in, I think, six different Government Departments—that any idea of being autocratic and unfeeling in the way in which they did their work was absolutely unintentional. I can only imagine that the shock of receiving a notice of that kind necessarily made the action seem autocratic and caused the unfortunate individual on whom a notice was served to feel that the thing should have been done in some other and better way; but I am quite certain the civil servants themselves behaved as civil servants of this country always do behave, with the utmost consideration for those with whom they have to deal. A case was mentioned of a school being told to move out some fifteen miles into the country, and the accommodation then being taken over for use by some Government Department, and reference has been made in the Press to a case where some school has been moved into some great country house. The question has been asked: "Why didn't the Gov-

1361
ernment Department move into that big country house and leave the school where it was? "There are two reasons for that. In the first place, as your Lordships will recognise, a Government Department has to be in very close touch with other Government Departments because the work of government is very much interlocked. To mention only two, the Ministry of Health and the Board of Education, for instance. Therefore it was necessary to find accommodation where pretty close touch could be kept with other Departments. That meant there must be every sort of facility for both telephone and telegraphic communication, and that, of course, was only available in the rather larger towns. If you take a country house right out in the middle of nowhere, as most of them are, that method of communication was not, of course, available, and the period from the time when it was obvious that war was inevitable to the time when those places might have to be occupied was extremely short.
These hotels and these schools were not taken over for living accommodation but for the office accommodation of the people who work in Government Departments. These people had to go and live somewhere else. They had to sleep somewhere after and they had to be within reasonable reach of their offices. If you take a country house, with possibly only a small village near it, there is, of course, no available accommodation in which the officials can live. Therefore, those arranging this requisitioning had to take offices in a town so as to enable living accommodation to be available for billeting the officers concerned. I may say that in such cases as have already moved the billeting accommodation has often been by no means princely, as is sometimes stated, and in many cases there are two people sleeping in one bed. There was this difficulty, which I think is perhaps not entirely recognised: it was felt that secrecy was necessary in this matter as obviously it would have been thoroughly unsound from a strategic point of view that you should enable the enemy to know that the War Office, we shall say, was going to move to place x, or the Ministry of Health was going to move to place y, or the Admiralty was going to move to place z. Therefore it was thought necessary that this information should be kept entirely secret, and
1362
it was kept secret up to the outbreak of war. Of course it is known to a very large number of people now, but I would point out that the censorship is now in full operation, and therefore it is much more easy to prevent that information getting to Germany than it would have been before war began.
My noble friend Lord Greville asked why we selected spas at all. The answer really is that spas largely selected themselves, because if you go to a provincial town perhaps rather far away from big manufacturing centres, you will find that very few of such towns have much in the way of hotel accommodation and living accommodation, but that is not true in the case of spas and holiday resorts. There you do get a large number of hotels which afford a great amount of available office accommodation. You also get houses which are not completely filled by those who usually occupy them because they are kept available for guests during the holiday season. I think my noble friend will appreciate that, faced with the problem such as the Departments for which I am speaking had to deal, they really had very little alternative than to go to spas to get the necessary accommodation. A question was asked whether people suffering from rheumatism and so on had been considered, and whether, particularly, those in the Services had had facilities provided for their complaints being dealt with in view of the very big requisitioning the Government have done. The answer is "Yes." The matter was considered by a sub-committee on which the Ministry of Health and the Service Departments were both represented.
LORD GREVILLE: Were there any medical members of the Service Departments on that committee?
EARL STANHOPE: Not actually a doctor, I think, but since this matter has been referred to the War Office I can say that seven buildings in three different spas have been earmarked for the purpose of taking those who might be suffering from rheumatism as a result of their services in the forces. As regards there being sufficient accommodation available for the public to receive treatment, that is, of course, an extraordinarily difficult question, because none of us know quite how many as a result of war may require

1363
treatment, but I am advised that accommodation will still be available, though not as good accommodation, of course, because that is one of the disabilities of having a war and having to take the very drastic and unpleasant steps which none of us like having to do. Although big hotels have been commandeered for office accommodation there are none the less a large number of boarding houses and small hotels to which people can go if they wish to get treatment for rheumatism at these various places. The facilities at most of the hydros are still available for members of the general public.
None of us knew when the war began whether an air raid was likely at any moment and none of us can tell whether an air raid may come to-night or tomorrow or not until the end of the war, but I hope that your Lordships will realise that, faced with the problem with which the Government were faced, we had to take steps to render accommodation available for Government Departments. I can say on behalf of the Government that we regret having had to take these steps at all, but I hope your Lordships will recognise that we have done the best that was possible under the circumstances, and that we have not been unreasonable or altogether unwise or lacking in foresight in the steps we took.
4.31 p.m.
LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, arising out of the debate may I ask the noble Earl the Leader of the House one question? If an owner or occupier of premises can show that he has a cause of grave and unavoidable hardship, is there anybody to whom he can have definite recourse? If I remember aright there were, comparatively early in the last war, similar complaints of property being commandeered unnecessarily and of undue hardship being caused. A tribunal was set up under Sir Henry Duke, whom your Lordships knew afterwards as Lord Merrivale, which immediately set to work to consider these complaints, and I think their findings on the whole were considered just and satisfactory. I do not press my noble friend for an answer now, but I do think that that precedent is well worth bearing in mind.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend. I cannot answer him offhand, because I have not the necessary information, but I do
1364
know that steps are being taken so that some advance will be made to meet compensation which may become payable. I do not know exactly what is the machinery, or how it will operate, but I will look into the matter and see that the point raised is brought to the attention of my right honourable friend.
4.33 p.m.
LORD GREVILLE: My Lords, I should like to be allowed to thank the noble Earl for his reply. I quite agree that the debate has ranged over a good many questions, and so has the reply. The reply to the questions I put was short. I have no complaint to make about the Government taking over hotels, but what I wished to be satisfied about was whether they had left sufficient accommodation for men in the Services and for civilians who might want treatment. The noble Earl said that the military authorities had been consulted, but the medical military authorities only later. That was the question to which I wanted an answer. I gather that the military authorities are satisfied that there will be enough accommodation, but I should have preferred that the medical men at the spas had been consulted about the accommodation for people like miners and fishermen and open air workers generally, because these medical men have a good idea of the numbers that go to the spas every year and could give the Government very useful information. I am sure that the noble Earl will not mind, in the event of my finding that there are any difficulties arising at a later date, if I raise the subject again.

INDIA AND BURMA ORDERS COMMITTEE.
4.34 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Chairman of Committees I beg to move the Motion standing in his name.
Moved, That the Lord Ker (M. Lothian) be discharged from serving on the Committee, and that the Lord Hutchison of Montrose be added to the Committee in his place.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before five o'clock.