HL Deb 03 October 1939 vol 114 cc1219-30

3.30 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government what is their policy during the present war with regard to the British cinematograph film industry, especially on the production side; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, my right honourable friend Mr. Greenwood, the Deputy Leader of my Party in another place, was approached on the subject matter of my question, and I also have been approached, and owing to pressure of work in another place my right honourable friends and Lord Snell thought it well to raise the matter in your Lordships' House. As a matter of fact the debate on the Films Bill of 1938 was very much better in your Lordships' House than it was in another place and so I venture to agree that it is more appropriate that this question should be raised here. Before 1914 the British film industry was in a very strong position. Then came the world war of 1914–18 and British production practically closed down. What was then the pioneer industry at Hollywood took advantage of the situation—small blame to it—and secured a virtual monopoly. There were also great technical advances at that time. When the last Great War ended the British film-producing industry had practically ceased and for seventeen years since has had an uphill struggle to try to get back to the position held previously.

The first reason that induced me to raise the matter is that we do not want that state of affairs to occur again. I believe that is also the Government view. The film-producing industry, I am informed, still has labour and material and is carrying on on a reduced scale, but those concerned in it want to be assured as to the future. In the last Great War all the men were taken from the industry, but the industry was not then so important, people had not recognised its importance for entertainment and in moulding the public opinion and, to speak bluntly, as a means of propaganda, disguised or open. There is now uncertainty and the people in the industry want to know in particular whether the Government have any intention of tampering with the Act of 1938 establishing a quota which the industry wish to have maintained. Another reason why this great industry should be kept alive is that if we have to rely entirely or too much on American films that will mean spending more dollars than we may be able to afford and will affect the exchange.

This matter of British films, I understand, is now partly the responsibility of the Ministry of Information, but I was very glad to hear through the usual channels, when I arrived for to-day's sitting of your Lordships' House, that the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, is going to reply to this debate. There is a very efficient branch at the Board of Trade which has dealt with the film industry and administered the Film Acts for years. The officials in that branch of the Board of Trade know all about the subject. But now a vast film organisation has been duplicated in the Ministry of Information. It consists of a great number of highly-paid people. They are very distinguished people, so they must be highly paid. Their names guarantee that they will have large salaries. I would like to know in due course what those gentlemen are to do. If the film department of the Board of Trade carries on I do not know what the department under the noble and learned Lord, Lord Macmillan, will have to do. I should like to take the opportunity of suggesting to the noble and learned Lord that if his Department is proposing to make propaganda films he should be very careful. The obvious propaganda film never creates the effect intended. All films, of course, have some propaganda value. The most reverend Primate will bear me out in that. Even the Hollywood rule, that good shall always triumph over evil, has a propaganda value. All films must have a happy ending if they are to pass the Hays organisation in the U.S.A. and British films going to America also must have a good ending. That is disguises propaganda, but one must be careful of films which are blatantly propagandist.

The film department of the Ministry of Information consists of a distinguished body of people under Major Sir Joseph Ball, who before the present war was, I understand, Director of the Conservative Party's Research Department. It is only a coincidence, of course, that all these gentlemen have held, or still hold, high office in the Central Conservative organisation. We know that they are efficient as propagandists because of the undeserved successes of the Conservative Party in recent General Elections. Therefore, if they know anything about films and know what they have to deal with, and can use this form of propaganda as efficiently as in recent Elections, on our enemy or even on our friends, I dare say there is good reason for their appointment. Then there is a gentleman named Sir Patrick Gower, who was I believe the chief publicity officer in the Conservative Central Office since 1929, and two others are Mr. Henry Brooke, a Conservative Member in another place, and a Mr. Oliver Bell, described as a director of the Film Institute, who was also formerly on the staff of the Conservative Party. As I say, it is only a coincidence that they all come from the Conservative Central Office, and I do not care as long as they are efficient and do not cost too much money.

THE EARL OF GLASGOW

I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he has just used the word "Party," I think, three times. I understood that now there is no Party and we are all united in One cause.

LORD STRABOLGI

I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I say that if the Government continue on their present headlong career to destruction there will be Party. If they do not show more foresight and courage in the crisis in which we are placed there will be enough Party to clear them out of office. I am sorry to have to say that just now, when there is a so-called Party truce. We want to win the war and we will support any Government in that, but I had to rise to the bait of so gallant a fisherman as the noble Earl.

I want now, if I may, to say a word about the news reels, which are very popular and interesting, particularly at the present time. Since the outbreak of the present war a flood of news reels has come from Germany. Those news reels have flooded the picture theatres in neutral countries and even have been shown here. I am very glad that they should be shown here because they will be very good for recruiting if recruits are needed. They show the German Army and Air Force and Navy—cameramen are given full facilities on both the Eastern and Western fronts, the only requirement being that of course the German forces shall be shown to the best advantage—and Mr. Hitler is shown surrounded by his Generals reviewing his troops and so on. But very little news reel has come out of this country. There have been a few magnificent pictures of the landing of our forces in France, but compared with the German output we have done very little—so little, in fact, that in neutral countries unsophisticated people think that the only people who are doing anything in the war are the Germans.

The news reel industry is a very large industry and very well organised. The head of one of the greatest Anglo-American news reel concerns in the world, with a distributing organisation which has been functioning successfully for years, offered to distribute any news reels of our magnificent forces throughout the world free, gratis and for nothing. But that did not suit the Ministry of Information. Not a bit of it. I understand that they propose to build up their own distributing organisation, a task which would take many months, and I am informed—I hope wrongly—that it would cost about £50,000. The Anglo-American offer of distribution has been turned down, and in any case no reply has been received according to my information. That is the information I am given. I have given notice of this particular matter to the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, and I sent a note also to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Macmillan. I hope this report I have on the cost is not so, and is an exaggeration—to put it mildly. But at any rate this offer to distribute these news reel films free and gratis through all the Scandinavian and Spanish-American countries, and so on, everywhere, has been rejected or not taken advantage of. If it had been the Board of Trade who had had this offer, I am perfectly certain from what I know of the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, and his chief, if I may say so with respect, that those news reels would have gone out quickly enough.

One other matter. A suggestion was also made that what are called "talkie" pictures—if your Lordships will forgive the slang: I mean cinematograph films of people speaking—should be made of leading statesmen in this country explaining why we entered into this war, and should be distributed in North and South America and everywhere else in the world. Nothing has happened. That may be wise; I do not know. It may be that some of our leading statesmen in this country would be better off the screen and the less the unsuspecting neutrals heard and saw of them the better. Judging from some of the effusions we have had from them on the wireless, I should rather think so. But there are certain people in this country—I am speaking, of course, not only of the supporters of the Government—whom the neutral public would like to hear on the screen in that way. It might be good. On the other hand, I quite see the point: you do not wish to be accused of propaganda. I know we must fight this war in a very gentlemanly way, and if we have propaganda in certain countries it might do more harm than good. I accept that. But I do not believe that some of the German leaders would have refused if they had had that offer. It would not have been made to them, but it is a means of reaching some hundreds of millions of people and by word of mouth giving the British case in this great struggle. It has not been taken advantage of. As I say, there is probably a good explanation for all these things.

May I just end as I began, my Lords? The British film industry for producing films, is, I believe it will be agreed, of importance. We wish it to be in a position during these coming months and years to produce good films giving the British point of view and showing the British institutions and what, indeed, we are fighting to preserve. We cannot leave that entirely in the hands of foreigners. Therefore the British film industry should be kept alive if it is at all possible. I know I have the sympathy of my noble friend Lord Templemore, and I presume also of the noble and learned Lord who is doing such good work in reorganising the Ministry of Information. I beg to move.

3.43 p.m.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, the noble Lord opposite has raised a most important question. I am very glad that he appears to be in his very best form this afternoon. He must have had some very good news over the week-end! My noble friend Lord Glasgow indeed did the House a service in these drab days, because he elicited from the noble Lord some very extraordinary remarks: he very nearly made a Party attack on His Majesty's Government, which is very refreshing in these times.

LORD STRABOLGI

Not yet!

LORD TEMPLEMORE

The noble Lord made what is too common in these days, a kind of veiled—it was not very veiled—attack on the Ministry of Information which is so ably represented by my noble and learned friend beside me. With the permission of the House, I am not going to deal with those points, but my noble friend Lord Macmillan will be very pleased to do so when I sit down. What I propose to deal with are the matters germane to the film industry which were raised by the noble Lord, and in order to do so I will, with your Lordships' permission, just run over a few points connected with that film industry so that we may know exactly where we stand and what is being done.

As your Lordships are aware, the cinematograph film industry is regulated by the Cinematograph Films Acts, 1927 and 1938. The 1938 Act continues the quota scheme initiated by the Act of 1927, under which, broadly speaking, every film renter has to acquire a certain length of British films proportionate to the total length of films that he acquires for distribution in Great Britain, and every exhibitor has to show a certain length of British films proportionate to the total length of the films that he exhibits. At the present time the proportion or quota laid down for renters in the Act of last year is 20 per cent. for long films and 15 per cent. for short films, and the quota for exhibitors is 12½ per cent. for long and short films alike.

The Act also imposes restrictions on the blind and advance bookings of films, provides for the registration of all films before distribution or exhibition, and defines what may be regarded for purposes of registration as a British film. In addition, it brings those employed by makers of films within the scope of the Fair-wage Resolution of the House of Commons, and constitutes the Cinematograph Films Council to advise the Board of Trade on matters relating to the industry. The Government feel—and representatives of the industry with whom they have been in touch agree—that certain at least of the provisions of the Acts may not be appropriate to war-time conditions. The most obvious instance is perhaps that of the exhibitor's quota. In view of the possibility of interruption due to local restrictions on opening, or to air raid warnings, it may be found impossible on grounds of equity to take action against an exhibitor for failing during a given period to exhibit the requisite proportion of British films.

Further, the administration of the Acts normally involves the employment of a considerable staff, whose services are now urgently needed for work more directly connected with the prosecution of the War. This points to the desirability for simplification, provided this can be accomplished without interfering with the objects for which the Acts were passed. On the other hand, there are certain sections of the Act—for instance, that dealing with wages and conditions of employment—which it is certainly desirable to retain. Another point that requires consideration is that in normal times it is estimated that the revenue earned in this country by American films represents an annual outflow of some five or six million pounds sterling. At a time when our foreign exchange resources are of such vital importance, it seems inevitable that means should be found to curtail this expenditure in a drastic manner. The issues raised by this problem are delicate and complicated, and they are being actively considered by the Government at the present time. The action required under this head may well radically alter the position of the film market and thus upset the basis on which the existing Acts rest.

But while the Government are satisfied that for the reasons already given the existing scheme of regulation needs to be modified, they recognise fully the need for ensuring that these modifications do not lead to a cessation of British film production such as occurred during the last war, to which the noble Lord opposite referred. They recognise, too, that the film industry has now its own contribution to make to the War effort. The President of the Board of Trade has been in touch with the producing interests and is fully informed as to their attitude. He has given them an assurance that the necessary changes shall only be made after consultation with those concerned and that there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a decision. The issues raised are complicated and difficult, and the interests not only of the various sections of the industry but also of the public must be taken into account.

As I said at the beginning of my speech, the noble Lord has raised, in addition to the matters I have dealt with, certain matters which are closely connected with the Ministry of Information, and my noble and learned friend beside me will deal with these, as he is so well able. I can only say in conclusion that the whole matter is under consideration as a matter of urgency by my right honourable friend and his advisers at the Board of Trade, and His Majesty's Government hope very shortly to put an end to any uncertainty which may exist in this important matter.

LORD STRABOLGI

Before the noble Lord sits down, did he say that the renter's quota would remain even if the exhibitor's quota is removed?

LORD TEMPLEMORE

So I understand.

3.50 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN)

My Lords, since the noble Lord opposite has invited me to supplement in some respects the reply which has just been made on behalf of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, I am very glad to have an opportunity of giving a little information on this aspect of the activity of the Ministry of Information. It is true that we have a film section in the Ministry; it is true that it enjoys the services of the gentlemen who have been alluded to by my noble friend; but I am happy to relieve his anxieties with regard to the financial aspect by saying that none of them receives any salary. These three gentlemen in particular whom he singled out for praise are giving their services voluntarily. Another point which I think will be consoling to my noble friend is that, so far from desiring to supersede existing agencies, it is the wish of my Department to use the existing trade organisations to the full. Sir Joseph Ball is well aware of their efficiency and the admirable equipment which they possess, and it would be most unfortunate if that were duplicated in any fashion. It is therefore the policy of the Department to avail themselves of those existing facilities.

On the general question, I should like to associate myself with my noble friend who has just spoken and to say that the Ministry of Information is fully alive to the value of the film as a means of publicity. In the present war the three means of reaching the people—nay, there are four—are the Press, the wireless, the films and, of course, the ordinary normal channels of personal oratory. The films in the last war played some part, but the industry was still in its infancy then. In this war we hope that as a vehicle of publicity it may be of the greatest possible value. It is valuable of course from the point of view of maintaining the general morale of the country, as providing entertainment and diversion, but it has other useful functions to perform, and I for one am of opinion that the Films Division of the Ministry has a most important contribution to make to our national war effort. Plans for carrying out those functions have already been made and much preliminary work has already been done in connection with them. I am satisfied that the plans which we have in hand and the steps which have been taken are all in the right direction. But it is manifest that, if we are to achieve anything through film publicity, the film industry must be maintained. It is only through the efficiency of a flourishing British film industry that we shall be able to attain the results which we hope to attain. The industry must continue, not only for the purpose of so-called propaganda work, but for the purpose of its ordinary exhibiting work, which I regard as in itself of the greatest importance. I can assure my noble friend opposite that we shall in the Ministry of Information do all that we can to strengthen the hands of the President of the Board of Trade in maintaining this important industry. I have every sympathy with it in the difficulties which it has had to encounter and I fully realise its value.

Now addressing myself to the two special points that were raised, first with regard to news reels, the news reels are very valuable indeed, because they have that element of actuality which makes a picture attractive. The difficulty in the way of producing news reels of the type desired was that at the beginning of the war there was an absolute embargo laid upon any photographs of military subjects. The Ministry of Information realised early how unfortunate that would be if it were absolutely without exception. I am happy to say that, through steps which have been taken by the Ministry, there has now been a relaxation of that order and the position now is that in the case of duly authorised photographers they are permitted to take photographs of subjects which previously would have been banned. Consequently it is now possible to take some news-reel photographs of actual military matters which can be pictured and exhibited without any detriment to real military considerations. We have, so far as I know, had no offer of free distribution of such news reels. The difficulty and the complaint I have had to encounter hitherto—and I have had several complaints to deal with—has been rather that news reels could not be taken at all, not that we were not availing ourselves of facilities which existed. I can assure the noble Lord that we are most happy to avail ourselves of any means whereby we can get distribution for nothing. It is perhaps one advantage of having a Scotsman as Minister of Information, that I can assure you that these matters will be very carefully attended to, and anything that one can do by way of economy, by using services that are offered to us, will be gladly done. But the difficulty about news reels, to which we are thoroughly alive, will be overcome now that authorised photographers are being permitted to take these photographs, and I hope we shall be able to have a number of them released.

The other matter to which the noble Lord alluded in rather sarcastic tones was as to the desirability of photographs of members of the Government. That is a form of "frightfulness" to which we have not yet descended. Whether it would be effective as a form of propaganda or not I am really at a loss to know. But, joking apart, there is of course, as there is in everything the noble Lord says, a point, and the point is this, that I think one or two selected personalities might possibly have some news value and some attractive value; but so far as that is concerned, we have been making suggestions that perhaps a distinguished speaker on some occasion might not only have his words distributed but also his personality reflected in a photograph. That has been discussed and one or two approaches in that direction have been made. I think the noble Lord recognises that it is a comparatively minor point, but it is one of those things that may have some value and we shall not lose sight of his hint. I can conclude as I began, by saying that, so far as the Ministry of Information is concerned, we are fully alive to the importance of the film as a vehicle of publicity, and when in the course of a few days we have had our overhaul of the Department and I am allowed, with the abatement of criticism, really to attend to my work, which hitherto has been to some extent impeded by the generous criticisms to which I have been subjected, I shall, I hope, be able to give an even more satisfactory answer to the noble Lord's questions.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I beg leave to thank both the noble Lords. It is not often that have the privilege of getting a double reply from the Government and I am very grateful to them. I do hope, if I may address the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, that this decision will not be long delayed, because delay is bad for the industry. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, also. With regard to those gentlemen giving their services free, I am very glad to hear it. I think there ought to be far more voluntary service in this war. Too many people are paid for what ought to be voluntary work. But that does not matter if they know their work and do it properly, and I know the noble Lord will see to that. About the distribution there is a conflict of evidence and I must bring the noble Lord the evidence on which I based my remarks. With regard to "talkie" pictures (if I may use a slang term) of leading statesmen in this country, I hope the Government are not going to be timid about this. They will be perfectly safe if they start with the members or your Lordships' House who either hold Government office or are leaders of Parties. I am sure that such pictures would be very popular. If that is successful they might take the plunge into the "frightfulness" of photographing members of the Cabinet who are Members of another place. I beg leave to withdraw.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.