Lords Sitting of 3 October 1939

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

SOLICITORS (DISCIPLINARY COMMITTEE) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
3.5 p.m.
LORD WRIGHT: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. It is a very short and simple measure. It involves one alteration of the Solicitors Act of 1932. The point of the Bill is to increase the number of members of the Disciplinary Committee from seven to nine and to enable the Committee to sit in more divisions than one, so long as there are not less than three members at the sitting of any division. It is not, of course, an emergency or a war measure, but the Committee are very anxious to have this change, as a good deal of delay has been experienced under the present system. The Bill has come to this House from another place, where it has passed through all its stages, and I apprehend that there should be no objection whatever to this very useful measure.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Wright.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION (EMERGENCY) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
3.6 p.m.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, I cannot say that it gives me any satisfaction to ask your Lordships to give this Bill a Second Reading. Nor, I think, is it to be wondered at that I should say that, as it involves a retrogression—a temporary one, it is true, but nevertheless a retrogression—in the field of education. But the hard facts of the present situation
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have to be faced, as I hope to show your Lordships, and they make necessary this backward step. Your Lordships will remember that it is now only three years since you gave your assent, unanimously, to a measure which provided for the raising of the school-leaving age from fourteen to fifteen. It was to date from September 1 of this year. The purpose of this Bill is to suspend that provision, and I will venture to give your Lordships, as briefly as I can, the reasons which have led His Majesty's Government to take this decision.
The Government scheme for the evacuation of school children was designed primarily to safeguard the lives of our young people, and though, of course, the need for the continued education of the children was not lost sight of, we undoubtedly find ourselves at this time faced with educational conditions that are all too painfully different from those which we envisaged when we passed the 1936 Act. In all evacuation areas, and indeed in some neutral areas—though here I hope the position will very soon be remedied—the elementary schools are closed, and even when all the schools in the reception areas are open, as most of them are already, the conditions under the evacuation scheme, such as the double-shift system, for instance, will be such as to make the extra year at school of very little value. In this connection your Lordships will remember that the Board always, in making a case for the raising of the school age, made it clear that they envisaged the last year being of a somewhat different character and of definite use to the growing child.
Now, this is the position, and I think your Lordships will share my view that in present conditions it would really be little short of a fraud on the parents to compel them to send their children to school between fourteen and fifteen, instead of allowing them to seek employment, as they could do before the 1936 Act was passed. It would, of course, be open to them to leave their children at school after fourteen on a voluntary basis, and, for myself, I certainly hope they will do so, unless they have some suitable employment in view for their children. There are one or two other reasons for the Bill on which I might venture to touch. Under existing conditions exemptions are likely to be given very freely, indeed on a wholesale basis. Your Lordships will

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agree that this would be a very bad precedent for normal times. Moreover, the procedure is an extremely complicated one, and it would be very difficult to find people to-day to undertake the task of granting or refusing exemptions conscientiously.
There is one other point. Some of your Lordships may ask whether the postponement of the appointed day applies equally to the provision in respect of grants for non-provided schools which are contained in Section 8 of the 1936 Act. The answer is in the negative. It is, of course, true that owing to the scarcity of building labour and materials some proposals for voluntary senior schools, which would otherwise have materialised, will fail to do so under the provisions of Section 8 of that Act. That is a hardship, but I have looked very carefully into the matter and I cannot see that a remedy for it can be found here and now on a basis that is likely to be fair. In the first place the duration of the war is obviously uncertain, and equally uncertain is the interval of time which will elapse between the end of the war and the resumption of normal building conditions. In these circumstances, the best course would be to review the whole position after the war, and I would here and now, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, be prepared to undertake that we should then give sympathetic consideration to the possibility of legislation to meet cases which have failed to materialise owing to causes beyond the control of the promoters or the authorities. I hope your Lordships will agree that that is probably the most practicable and the fairest way of dealing with that rather unsatisfactory situation.
In conclusion, I should like to emphasize what I said at the beginning of my remarks—namely, that this Bill is a postponement and not a repeal of the principle of raising the school age from fourteen to fifteen, which the Act of 1936 embodied. That principle has been accepted by the Government and by the country, and there can be no question whatsoever of going back on it or failing to put it into effect as soon as circumstances permit. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (Earl De La Warr.)
3.14 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Snell has been called out of the House and has asked me to express our views, which I shall do very briefly. In the circumstances of to-day we cannot oppose the introduction of this Bill. The only thing is that on the Committee stage we may ask your Lordships to agree to an Amendment defining a little more clearly the date of the postponement—in other words, pinning the Government, or whichever Government is then in office, a little more closely to introduce again the upper age limit as soon as possible after the conclusion of hostilities.
3.15 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I may be forgiven one or two sentences on this matter, for two reasons. One is that I have always been among those who pressed for the raising of the school age, but in view of the circumstances so clearly indicated by the noble Earl I am convinced this is not the time to proceed with what otherwise would have been a very welcome extension of the educational facilities of the country. The other reason is that I am, naturally, greatly interested in the building of voluntary senior schools. It was our great desire to co-operate with the Government in the provision of these most necessary schools, but at the present time, owing to the immense preoccupation of local education authorities with other matters and owing to the obvious difficulties of securing labour, materials, and the like, it has been quite impossible for many of these schemes, which had already reached almost the point of completion, to fulfil the obligation imposed by the Act of 1936 to have reached completion or reasonable prospect of completion by September, 1940. I fully recognise the reasons which have led the noble Earl to consider that it would not be appropriate to deal with this matter by legislation at the present time, but I welcome his assurance that when the war is over and the time comes for reviving some of these schemes, which through no fault of the promoters it has been impossible to carry out, the Government will give full consideration—I know they will—to the possibility of any legislation that might cover and exonerate those bodies for any failure to comply with the exact provisions of the Act.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EDUCATION (EMERGENCY) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
3.17 p.m.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA AND BURMA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, the reasons for this Bill are the same, of course, as those which have been given by my noble friend for the similar Bill affecting England. The necessity for a separate Bill for Scotland is due to differences, with which your Lordships are all familiar, between English and Scottish law. I need not, therefore, travel over the ground which has been already covered by my noble friend when explaining the necessity for the English Bill, and I need, perhaps, make reference only to one or two points which are peculiar to the Scottish Bill, to the Second Reading of which I am about to ask your Lordships to agree.
In the case of Scotland it was provided by the Act of 1918 that in due course the school-leaving age should be raised from fourteen to fifteen, and under the provisions of that Act the change was to be brought about by an Order. The time for the issue of that Order had not come when a further Act was passed in 1936 which, so far as this matter is concerned, took the place of the Order and laid down September 1, 1939, as the date on which this change should be made. Clause 1, therefore, of the Bill now before your Lordships provides that that date shall be erased, and that in its place the date shall be described as "the appointed day," which is to be appointed by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. In paragraph (b) of subsection (1) in Clause 1, your Lordships may find the language a little bit difficult to follow, as is often the case with Parliamentary enactments. The paragraph reads as follows:
"Subsection (2) of Section one shall have effect as if for the reference therein to the first day of September, nineteen hundred and twenty-five there were substituted a reference to the date of which the appointed day is the fourteenth anniversary."
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That simply refers to the provision in the original Act to the effect that if a boy between the ages of fourteen and fifteen had already left school—he might possibly have left school for six months—he should not be recalled to school after having been away for that period under the provisions of the Act. Subsection (2) of Clause 1 merely protects the local education authorities who may have already spent money in anticipation of the change which was expected to come about on September 1, 1939. If this provision were not here inserted any expenditure, if this Bill becomes law, would of course have become illegal, and the purpose of the subsection therefore is to protect the local education authorities under that head.
Clause 2 deals with the question of the issue of by-laws largely for controlling the employment in various occupations of children between the ages of fourteen and fifteen, and the effect of it is to render inoperative by-laws which have already been passed in anticipation of the change coming about on September 1. That is to say, by-laws affecting children between the ages of fourteen and fifteen on the assumption that the original arrangement had been brought into operation will have no effect, but by-laws affecting children under the age of fourteen which have already been made will of course continue to have effect, and the local authorities are given power to pass such new by-laws as may be found desirable. That is an explanation of the clauses of this rather complicated Bill, and, as your Lordships will see, the effect of it is precisely the same as that of the similar Bill to which your Lordships have already given a Second Reading in the case of England. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Marquess of Zetland.)
LORD ADDISON: My Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess who has particularly referred to these by-laws affecting children between the ages of fourteen and fifteen, or the noble Earl opposite (Earl De La Wan), whether in view of the unfortunate necessity of taking this course, which we all recognise and regret, the Government are able or propose to do anything with respect to these children at this age, so as to provide them with some

1217
form of co-ordinated or organised occupation in clubs or in schools or in any other form? We all remember that there was a very unfortunate development during the last war, and it would be good service if steps could be taken to prevent as far as possible that recurring. It was, I remember, particularly children of this age who were affected.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, the noble Marquess has asked me to reply to the noble Lord. I think perhaps it would be most appropriate if I referred the noble Lord to the debate that is shortly to follow to-day. I shall be making a statement then on what I agree with the noble Lord is a most important subject, in reply to a Motion put down by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

COURTS (EMERGENCY POWERS) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
3.25 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT CALDECOTE): My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. Its purpose is to do for Scotland what the Courts (Emergency Powers) Act, which received the Royal Assent on September 1, did for England. That Act was drafted in fact so as to apply also to Scotland. It was drafted as a United Kingdom measure with Scottish clauses, but difficulties have already arisen in interpretation and in applying the provisions of the Act, due to the wide differences between English law and Scottish law both in substance and in terminology. I understand that these difficulties are likely to grow in number if matters remain as they are, and that it would be necessary to obtain decisions probably in the Court of Session in order to clarify the position. In these circumstances it is thought desirable to have a separate measure passed which would achieve as nearly as possible the same results as in England but framed in terms to fit Scottish law. I have satisfied myself that this Bill carries out that intention.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

EXECUTION OF TRUSTS (EMER GENCY PROVISIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reacting read.
3.27 p.m.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The purpose of the Bill is to enable trustees who are engaged on war service to delegate the exercise of their functions to another person. In the last war it was found convenient that this power should be given to trustees and two Acts of Parliament were passed in 1914 and 1915 giving effect to that purpose. This Bill corresponds to that legislation, but there are some modifications which in part are due to changes that have been made in the meantime in the general law. In some respects the powers conferred by this Bill are less restricted than those that were given by the war legislation to which I have referred. Clause 1 of the Bill, which is the main clause, gives effect to the main intention of the Bill. Subsection (5) of Clause 1 is a provision similar to one contained in the 1914 legislation by which persons absent from the United Kingdom and unable to return owing to the war were given the like powers as are given to trustees on war service.
Clause 2 provides for the protection of the delegating trustee as long as he acts without negligence and in good faith, and without negligence in choosing his attorney, while the attorney himself has precisely the same duties and responsibilities as if he were himself a trustee. Clause 3 of the Bill is a machinery clause relating to the powers of attorney by which the delegation of functions takes place. Clause 4 is required to regularise transfers of stock by an attorney. Clause 5 provides for cases where an infant engaged on war service dies and the trustees of a settlement have done some act in exercise of their powers. In such cases when you are dealing with trustees the trustees themselves are completely protected if the act was done without actual notice of the death. The other clauses are the interpretation clause and

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the clause which provides that the measure shall not extend to Scotland. I have had the great advantage of a discussion on the terms of this Bill and its objects with my noble and learned friend Viscount Maugham, and I have his permission to say that the Bill meets with his approval.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CINEMATOGRAPH FILM INDUSTRY.
3.30 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI LORD STRABOLGI rose to ask His Majesty's Government what is their policy during the present war with regard to the British cinematograph film industry, especially on the production side; and to move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, my right honourable friend Mr. Greenwood, the Deputy Leader of my Party in another place, was approached on the subject matter of my question, and I also have been approached, and owing to pressure of work in another place my right honourable friends and Lord Snell thought it well to raise the matter in your Lordships' House. As a matter of fact the debate on the Films Bill of 1938 was very much better in your Lordships' House than it was in another place and so I venture to agree that it is more appropriate that this question should be raised here. Before 1914 the British film industry was in a very strong position. Then came the world war of 1914–18 and British production practically closed down. What was then the pioneer industry at Hollywood took advantage of the situation—small blame to it—and secured a virtual monopoly. There were also great technical advances at that time. When the last Great War ended the British film-producing industry had practically ceased and for seventeen years since has had an uphill struggle to try to get back to the position held previously.
The first reason that induced me to raise the matter is that we do not want that state of affairs to occur again. I believe that is also the Government view. The film-producing industry, I am informed, still has labour and material and is carrying on on a reduced scale, but
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those concerned in it want to be assured as to the future. In the last Great War all the men were taken from the industry, but the industry was not then so important, people had not recognised its importance for entertainment and in moulding the public opinion and, to speak bluntly, as a means of propaganda, disguised or open. There is now uncertainty and the people in the industry want to know in particular whether the Government have any intention of tampering with the Act of 1938 establishing a quota which the industry wish to have maintained. Another reason why this great industry should be kept alive is that if we have to rely entirely or too much on American films that will mean spending more dollars than we may be able to afford and will affect the exchange.
This matter of British films, I understand, is now partly the responsibility of the Ministry of Information, but I was very glad to hear through the usual channels, when I arrived for to-day's sitting of your Lordships' House, that the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, is going to reply to this debate. There is a very efficient branch at the Board of Trade which has dealt with the film industry and administered the Film Acts for years. The officials in that branch of the Board of Trade know all about the subject. But now a vast film organisation has been duplicated in the Ministry of Information. It consists of a great number of highly-paid people. They are very distinguished people, so they must be highly paid. Their names guarantee that they will have large salaries. I would like to know in due course what those gentlemen are to do. If the film department of the Board of Trade carries on I do not know what the department under the noble and learned Lord, Lord Macmillan, will have to do. I should like to take the opportunity of suggesting to the noble and learned Lord that if his Department is proposing to make propaganda films he should be very careful. The obvious propaganda film never creates the effect intended. All films, of course, have some propaganda value. The most reverend Primate will bear me out in that. Even the Hollywood rule, that good shall always triumph over evil, has a propaganda value. All films must have a happy ending if they are to pass the Hays organisation in the U.S.A. and British films going to America also must

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have a good ending. That is disguises propaganda, but one must be careful of films which are blatantly propagandist.
The film department of the Ministry of Information consists of a distinguished body of people under Major Sir Joseph Ball, who before the present war was, I understand, Director of the Conservative Party's Research Department. It is only a coincidence, of course, that all these gentlemen have held, or still hold, high office in the Central Conservative organisation. We know that they are efficient as propagandists because of the undeserved successes of the Conservative Party in recent General Elections. Therefore, if they know anything about films and know what they have to deal with, and can use this form of propaganda as efficiently as in recent Elections, on our enemy or even on our friends, I dare say there is good reason for their appointment. Then there is a gentleman named Sir Patrick Gower, who was I believe the chief publicity officer in the Conservative Central Office since 1929, and two others are Mr. Henry Brooke, a Conservative Member in another place, and a Mr. Oliver Bell, described as a director of the Film Institute, who was also formerly on the staff of the Conservative Party. As I say, it is only a coincidence that they all come from the Conservative Central Office, and I do not care as long as they are efficient and do not cost too much money.
THE EARL OF GLASGOW: I am sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but he has just used the word "Party," I think, three times. I understood that now there is no Party and we are all united in One cause.
LORD STRABOLGI: I hope the noble Earl will forgive me if I say that if the Government continue on their present headlong career to destruction there will be Party. If they do not show more foresight and courage in the crisis in which we are placed there will be enough Party to clear them out of office. I am sorry to have to say that just now, when there is a so-called Party truce. We want to win the war and we will support any Government in that, but I had to rise to the bait of so gallant a fisherman as the noble Earl.
I want now, if I may, to say a word about the news reels, which are very popular and interesting, particularly at
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the present time. Since the outbreak of the present war a flood of news reels has come from Germany. Those news reels have flooded the picture theatres in neutral countries and even have been shown here. I am very glad that they should be shown here because they will be very good for recruiting if recruits are needed. They show the German Army and Air Force and Navy—cameramen are given full facilities on both the Eastern and Western fronts, the only requirement being that of course the German forces shall be shown to the best advantage—and Mr. Hitler is shown surrounded by his Generals reviewing his troops and so on. But very little news reel has come out of this country. There have been a few magnificent pictures of the landing of our forces in France, but compared with the German output we have done very little—so little, in fact, that in neutral countries unsophisticated people think that the only people who are doing anything in the war are the Germans.
The news reel industry is a very large industry and very well organised. The head of one of the greatest Anglo-American news reel concerns in the world, with a distributing organisation which has been functioning successfully for years, offered to distribute any news reels of our magnificent forces throughout the world free, gratis and for nothing. But that did not suit the Ministry of Information. Not a bit of it. I understand that they propose to build up their own distributing organisation, a task which would take many months, and I am informed—I hope wrongly—that it would cost about £50,000. The Anglo-American offer of distribution has been turned down, and in any case no reply has been received according to my information. That is the information I am given. I have given notice of this particular matter to the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, and I sent a note also to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Macmillan. I hope this report I have on the cost is not so, and is an exaggeration—to put it mildly. But at any rate this offer to distribute these news reel films free and gratis through all the Scandinavian and Spanish-American countries, and so on, everywhere, has been rejected or not taken advantage of. If it had been the Board of Trade who had had this offer, I am perfectly certain from what I know of the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, and his chief, if I

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may say so with respect, that those news reels would have gone out quickly enough.
One other matter. A suggestion was also made that what are called "talkie" pictures—if your Lordships will forgive the slang: I mean cinematograph films of people speaking—should be made of leading statesmen in this country explaining why we entered into this war, and should be distributed in North and South America and everywhere else in the world. Nothing has happened. That may be wise; I do not know. It may be that some of our leading statesmen in this country would be better off the screen and the less the unsuspecting neutrals heard and saw of them the better. Judging from some of the effusions we have had from them on the wireless, I should rather think so. But there are certain people in this country—I am speaking, of course, not only of the supporters of the Government—whom the neutral public would like to hear on the screen in that way. It might be good. On the other hand, I quite see the point: you do not wish to be accused of propaganda. I know we must fight this war in a very gentlemanly way, and if we have propaganda in certain countries it might do more harm than good. I accept that. But I do not believe that some of the German leaders would have refused if they had had that offer. It would not have been made to them, but it is a means of reaching some hundreds of millions of people and by word of mouth giving the British case in this great struggle. It has not been taken advantage of. As I say, there is probably a good explanation for all these things.
May I just end as I began, my Lords? The British film industry for producing films, is, I believe it will be agreed, of importance. We wish it to be in a position during these coming months and years to produce good films giving the British point of view and showing the British institutions and what, indeed, we are fighting to preserve. We cannot leave that entirely in the hands of foreigners. Therefore the British film industry should be kept alive if it is at all possible. I know I have the sympathy of my noble friend Lord Templemore, and I presume also of the noble and learned Lord who is doing such good work in reorganising
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the Ministry of Information. I beg to move.
3.43 p.m.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the noble Lord opposite has raised a most important question. I am very glad that he appears to be in his very best form this afternoon. He must have had some very good news over the week-end! My noble friend Lord Glasgow indeed did the House a service in these drab days, because he elicited from the noble Lord some very extraordinary remarks: he very nearly made a Party attack on His Majesty's Government, which is very refreshing in these times.
LORD STRABOLGI: Not yet!
LORD TEMPLEMORE: The noble Lord made what is too common in these days, a kind of veiled—it was not very veiled—attack on the Ministry of Information which is so ably represented by my noble and learned friend beside me. With the permission of the House, I am not going to deal with those points, but my noble friend Lord Macmillan will be very pleased to do so when I sit down. What I propose to deal with are the matters germane to the film industry which were raised by the noble Lord, and in order to do so I will, with your Lordships' permission, just run over a few points connected with that film industry so that we may know exactly where we stand and what is being done.
As your Lordships are aware, the cinematograph film industry is regulated by the Cinematograph Films Acts, 1927 and 1938. The 1938 Act continues the quota scheme initiated by the Act of 1927, under which, broadly speaking, every film renter has to acquire a certain length of British films proportionate to the total length of films that he acquires for distribution in Great Britain, and every exhibitor has to show a certain length of British films proportionate to the total length of the films that he exhibits. At the present time the proportion or quota laid down for renters in the Act of last year is 20 per cent. for long films and 15 per cent. for short films, and the quota for exhibitors is 12½ per cent. for long and short films alike.
The Act also imposes restrictions on the blind and advance bookings of films, provides for the registration of all films before distribution or exhibition, and

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defines what may be regarded for purposes of registration as a British film. In addition, it brings those employed by makers of films within the scope of the Fair-wage Resolution of the House of Commons, and constitutes the Cinematograph Films Council to advise the Board of Trade on matters relating to the industry. The Government feel—and representatives of the industry with whom they have been in touch agree—that certain at least of the provisions of the Acts may not be appropriate to war-time conditions. The most obvious instance is perhaps that of the exhibitor's quota. In view of the possibility of interruption due to local restrictions on opening, or to air raid warnings, it may be found impossible on grounds of equity to take action against an exhibitor for failing during a given period to exhibit the requisite proportion of British films.
Further, the administration of the Acts normally involves the employment of a considerable staff, whose services are now urgently needed for work more directly connected with the prosecution of the War. This points to the desirability for simplification, provided this can be accomplished without interfering with the objects for which the Acts were passed. On the other hand, there are certain sections of the Act—for instance, that dealing with wages and conditions of employment—which it is certainly desirable to retain. Another point that requires consideration is that in normal times it is estimated that the revenue earned in this country by American films represents an annual outflow of some five or six million pounds sterling. At a time when our foreign exchange resources are of such vital importance, it seems inevitable that means should be found to curtail this expenditure in a drastic manner. The issues raised by this problem are delicate and complicated, and they are being actively considered by the Government at the present time. The action required under this head may well radically alter the position of the film market and thus upset the basis on which the existing Acts rest.
But while the Government are satisfied that for the reasons already given the existing scheme of regulation needs to be modified, they recognise fully the need for ensuring that these modifications do not lead to a cessation of British film production such as occurred during the last
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war, to which the noble Lord opposite referred. They recognise, too, that the film industry has now its own contribution to make to the War effort. The President of the Board of Trade has been in touch with the producing interests and is fully informed as to their attitude. He has given them an assurance that the necessary changes shall only be made after consultation with those concerned and that there will be no avoidable delay in reaching a decision. The issues raised are complicated and difficult, and the interests not only of the various sections of the industry but also of the public must be taken into account.
As I said at the beginning of my speech, the noble Lord has raised, in addition to the matters I have dealt with, certain matters which are closely connected with the Ministry of Information, and my noble and learned friend beside me will deal with these, as he is so well able. I can only say in conclusion that the whole matter is under consideration as a matter of urgency by my right honourable friend and his advisers at the Board of Trade, and His Majesty's Government hope very shortly to put an end to any uncertainty which may exist in this important matter.
LORD STRABOLGI: Before the noble Lord sits down, did he say that the renter's quota would remain even if the exhibitor's quota is removed?
LORD TEMPLEMORE: So I understand.
3.50 p.m.
THE MINISTER OF INFORMATION (LORD MACMILLAN): My Lords, since the noble Lord opposite has invited me to supplement in some respects the reply which has just been made on behalf of my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade, I am very glad to have an opportunity of giving a little information on this aspect of the activity of the Ministry of Information. It is true that we have a film section in the Ministry; it is true that it enjoys the services of the gentlemen who have been alluded to by my noble friend; but I am happy to relieve his anxieties with regard to the financial aspect by saying that none of them receives any salary. These three gentlemen in particular whom he singled out for praise are giving their services voluntarily. Another point which I think

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will be consoling to my noble friend is that, so far from desiring to supersede existing agencies, it is the wish of my Department to use the existing trade organisations to the full. Sir Joseph Ball is well aware of their efficiency and the admirable equipment which they possess, and it would be most unfortunate if that were duplicated in any fashion. It is therefore the policy of the Department to avail themselves of those existing facilities.
On the general question, I should like to associate myself with my noble friend who has just spoken and to say that the Ministry of Information is fully alive to the value of the film as a means of publicity. In the present war the three means of reaching the people—nay, there are four—are the Press, the wireless, the films and, of course, the ordinary normal channels of personal oratory. The films in the last war played some part, but the industry was still in its infancy then. In this war we hope that as a vehicle of publicity it may be of the greatest possible value. It is valuable of course from the point of view of maintaining the general morale of the country, as providing entertainment and diversion, but it has other useful functions to perform, and I for one am of opinion that the Films Division of the Ministry has a most important contribution to make to our national war effort. Plans for carrying out those functions have already been made and much preliminary work has already been done in connection with them. I am satisfied that the plans which we have in hand and the steps which have been taken are all in the right direction. But it is manifest that, if we are to achieve anything through film publicity, the film industry must be maintained. It is only through the efficiency of a flourishing British film industry that we shall be able to attain the results which we hope to attain. The industry must continue, not only for the purpose of so-called propaganda work, but for the purpose of its ordinary exhibiting work, which I regard as in itself of the greatest importance. I can assure my noble friend opposite that we shall in the Ministry of Information do all that we can to strengthen the hands of the President of the Board of Trade in maintaining this important industry. I have
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every sympathy with it in the difficulties which it has had to encounter and I fully realise its value.
Now addressing myself to the two special points that were raised, first with regard to news reels, the news reels are very valuable indeed, because they have that element of actuality which makes a picture attractive. The difficulty in the way of producing news reels of the type desired was that at the beginning of the war there was an absolute embargo laid upon any photographs of military subjects. The Ministry of Information realised early how unfortunate that would be if it were absolutely without exception. I am happy to say that, through steps which have been taken by the Ministry, there has now been a relaxation of that order and the position now is that in the case of duly authorised photographers they are permitted to take photographs of subjects which previously would have been banned. Consequently it is now possible to take some news-reel photographs of actual military matters which can be pictured and exhibited without any detriment to real military considerations. We have, so far as I know, had no offer of free distribution of such news reels. The difficulty and the complaint I have had to encounter hitherto—and I have had several complaints to deal with—has been rather that news reels could not be taken at all, not that we were not availing ourselves of facilities which existed. I can assure the noble Lord that we are most happy to avail ourselves of any means whereby we can get distribution for nothing. It is perhaps one advantage of having a Scotsman as Minister of Information, that I can assure you that these matters will be very carefully attended to, and anything that one can do by way of economy, by using services that are offered to us, will be gladly done. But the difficulty about news reels, to which we are thoroughly alive, will be overcome now that authorised photographers are being permitted to take these photographs, and I hope we shall be able to have a number of them released.
The other matter to which the noble Lord alluded in rather sarcastic tones was as to the desirability of photographs of members of the Government. That is a form of "frightfulness" to which we have not yet descended. Whether it

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would be effective as a form of propaganda or not I am really at a loss to know. But, joking apart, there is of course, as there is in everything the noble Lord says, a point, and the point is this, that I think one or two selected personalities might possibly have some news value and some attractive value; but so far as that is concerned, we have been making suggestions that perhaps a distinguished speaker on some occasion might not only have his words distributed but also his personality reflected in a photograph. That has been discussed and one or two approaches in that direction have been made. I think the noble Lord recognises that it is a comparatively minor point, but it is one of those things that may have some value and we shall not lose sight of his hint. I can conclude as I began, by saying that, so far as the Ministry of Information is concerned, we are fully alive to the importance of the film as a vehicle of publicity, and when in the course of a few days we have had our overhaul of the Department and I am allowed, with the abatement of criticism, really to attend to my work, which hitherto has been to some extent impeded by the generous criticisms to which I have been subjected, I shall, I hope, be able to give an even more satisfactory answer to the noble Lord's questions.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I beg leave to thank both the noble Lords. It is not often that have the privilege of getting a double reply from the Government and I am very grateful to them. I do hope, if I may address the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, that this decision will not be long delayed, because delay is bad for the industry. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, also. With regard to those gentlemen giving their services free, I am very glad to hear it. I think there ought to be far more voluntary service in this war. Too many people are paid for what ought to be voluntary work. But that does not matter if they know their work and do it properly, and I know the noble Lord will see to that. About the distribution there is a conflict of evidence and I must bring the noble Lord the evidence on which I based my remarks. With regard to "talkie" pictures (if I may use a slang term) of leading statesmen in this country, I hope the Government are not going to be timid about this. They will
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be perfectly safe if they start with the members or your Lordships' House who either hold Government office or are leaders of Parties. I am sure that such pictures would be very popular. If that is successful they might take the plunge into the "frightfulness" of photographing members of the Cabinet who are Members of another place. I beg leave to withdraw.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

THE WAR: THE RUSSO-GERMAN DECLARATION.
4 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have any statement to make on the international situation.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, in the last week events of great importance have occurred in the international field. On September 26 the German Foreign Minister paid a visit to Moscow, and on September 28 the results of this visit were proclaimed. These results were threefold. In the first place, a fourth partition of Poland has been attempted, and an agreement has been signed recognising as final the frontier between Russia and Germany. The line agreed upon was considerably more favourable to Germany than the provisional line of military occupation which had previously been laid down. In the second place the German and Soviet Governments have declared that their agreement has finally settled the questions arising out of the collapse of the Polish State and has created a solid foundation for lasting peace in Eastern Europe. In their opinion the liquidation of the present war between Germany and England and France would be in the interests of all nations. Both Governments, they go on to say, will endeavour to achieve this object as quickly as possible. They assert that should their efforts prove unsuccessful, England and France will bear the responsibility for the continuance of the war, and they acid that the German and Soviet Governments will then consult together as to the measures they will take. In the third place, an economic agreement between Germany and Russia is foreshadowed, under which Russia will supply raw materials to Germany and

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Germany will supply industrial goods produced over a lengthy period.
There has been in some quarters a demand that His Majesty's Government should define their attitude in the face of these developments, but we see nothing in what has happened that should lead this country to modify the attitude which it has felt it right to take. The agreement between Germany and Russia and the subsequent partition of Poland between them have, of course, changed the position in Poland, but it by no means follows that the arrangement will enure to the ultimate advantage of Germany, and still less should it affect the aims of His Majesty's Government. There is nothing in that agreement that should cause us to do anything other than what we are doing now—mobilising all the resources and all the might of the British Empire for the effective prosecution of the war.
The reason for which this country entered the war has been frequently proclaimed. It was to put an end to the successive acts of German aggression which menaced the freedom and the very security of all the nations of Europe. The immediate cause of the war was the deliberate invasion of Poland by Germany, the latest but by no means the only act of aggression planned and carried through by the German Government. But if Poland was the direct occasion of war, it was not the fundamental cause. That cause was the overwhelming sense in this country and in France of the intolerable nature of a state of affairs in which the nations of Europe were faced with the alternative of jeopardising their freedom or of mobilising their forces at regular intervals to defend it.
The passage in the Russo-German declaration about the liquidation of the war is obscure but it seems to combine a suggestion of some proposal for peace with a scarcely veiled threat as to the consequences if the proposal should be refused. His Majesty's Government cannot anticipate what the nature of any such proposal might be. But we can say at once that no threat would ever induce this country or France to abandon the purpose for which we have entered upon this struggle. To attempt—as German propaganda does—to saddle us with the responsibility for continuing the
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war because we are not prepared to abandon the struggle before this purpose is achieved is only another instance of German war technique. The responsibility for the war rests upon those who have conceived and carried out this policy of successive aggression, and it can neither be evaded nor excused. His Majesty's Government would add one thing more. No mere assurances from the present German Government could be accepted by us. For that Government have too often proved in the past that their undertakings are worthless when it suits them that they should be broken. If, therefore, proposals are made, we shall certainly examine them, and we shall test them in the light of what I have just said. Nobody desires the war to continue for an unnecessary day, but the overwhelming mass of opinion in this country, and we are satisfied also in France, is determined to secure that the rule of violence shall cease and that the word of Governments, once pledged, must henceforth be kept.
These events in the international field and our reactions to them are necessarily uppermost in our minds to-day. Your Lordships will, however, wish me to give you a brief summary of the progress of the war since I last spoke. On the Western Front some further progress has been made by the French, which has enabled them to secure useful points for observation over the German positions. A large British Army has been transported to France, and is taking its place alongside our French Allies. We have reason to be proud of the efficiency with which this complicated movement has been carried out. Reconnaissance flights, both by day and by night, are being made by the Royal Air Force units in France, and there have been encounters with enemy fighter aircraft. An account of the heroic combat above the Siegfried line, in which five battle aircraft fought fifteen Messerschmidt fighters, has already been made public, and has attracted the warm admiration of our French Allies. Aircraft of the Coastal Command have continued, throughout the week, to carry out anti-submarine and other routine patrols, escort work, and special reconnaissances, and advantage has been taken of the light of the moon to continue the relentless hunting of submarines during the night hours. A number of U-boats have been sighted and attacked. As already announced, attacks were made

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on units of the German Fleet by aircraft of the Bomber Command on September 29. As a result of one of these attacks, prosecuted in the teeth of fierce opposition, both from anti-aircraft gunfire and from enemy fighters, we suffered some losses, but the Germans have admitted that two of their attacking fighters were shot down.
At sea, the war against the submarine has continued with unabated vigour. On September 20 last the Government statement expressed the opinion that the rapid increase in the numbers, power and efficiency of our hunting craft, together with the employment of the convoy system, would cause the submarine menace to dwindle no less rapidly. His Majesty's Government are happy to say that events have shown our confidence to be justified. Trade is flowing to and from our ports in an ever-increasing volume. At this moment hundreds of vessels are moving over the great ocean routes. They are protected both by convoy and by the unremitting and relentless action of our anti-submarine forces. Between September 11 and 20, 1,485 vessels, of a gross tonnage of 3,679,000 tons, entered or cleared the ports of the United Kingdom. During that period only 1.25 per cent. of these ships and 1.75 per cent. of the total tonnage was lost by U-boat attacks or by mines. No ship has been lost in convoy. Between September 20 and 24 three British ships, of an aggregate tonnage of 7,627 tons, were sunk by German submarines. Since then, that is to say for a period of over a week, no British ship has been reported sunk by enemy submarine action.
This may, in part, be due to the fact that the U-boats at sea at the beginning of the war are now being relieved by others putting out from German ports. But there is ample evidence that submarines are still operating round our coasts. The absence of sinkings, therefore, is, in the main, due to the successful measures adopted by the Royal Navy. The U-boats are being hunted from home waters where our shipping must inevitably congregate and where in consequence it is most vulnerable. German submarines therefore, in their efforts to avoid our warships are being driven to operate in far distant waters. In those seas their menace cannot be so great; but until they
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can be found and destroyed they may be an embarrassment.
Another and more sinister development of the U-boat warfare is the announcement by the German Government that they will regard every vessel of the British Merchant Navy as a warship. If this means anything, it means that they will pursue an unrestricted submarine campaign. The right to arm merchant ships for self-defence is one of the well-established principles of International Law. Since the war commenced, our merchant shipping has been subjected to attack without warning or in circumstances which put their crews in jeopardy by forcing them to take to the boats, often miles from land or rescue, a procedure directly contrary to international maritime law. These illegal attacks only serve to underline the importance of providing our shipping with adequate defensive equipment; and we are pressing on with this with the utmost possible dispatch. Further evidence of unrestricted submarine warfare is to be found in the number of neutral merchant ships which Germany has sunk. Since the outbreak of war, the total of these sinkings amounts to seven ships, of a gross tonnage of 13,194 tons. In addition, eight ships with a gross tonnage of 27,765 tons have been sunk by mines or bombing. Evidence has been received that a German raider is operating in the South Atlantic. One of our ships has been sunk and the crew has been picked up by a neutral ship. This fresh menace will be dealt with according to prearranged plans.
The reiterated misstatements of the German broadcasts have given prominence to the action in the middle of the North Sea on Tuesday, September 26, between German bombing planes and certain units of the Home Fleet. The Germans have claimed the sinking of the aircraft carrier "Ark Royal," later changed to "Glorious" or even "Furious," and severe damage to battleships without loss to themselves. The facts are that no British ship was damaged and that all of them, the "Ark Royal" included, are carrying out their normal duties, entirely unmoved by these rumours. The only casualties incurred in that action were suffered by the German aircraft themselves. Four of the crew of these aircraft are prisoners in our hands.

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The preparations of the Dominions, to which I have referred in previous statements, are continuing, and your Lordships will be glad to hear also of the splendid help we are receiving from two other parts of the Empire, Newfoundland and Southern Rhodesia. In Newfoundland, arrangements are already being made to recruit for the Royal Navy some hundreds of men from the Newfoundland fishing fleet. All of us will recollect the magnificent service rendered by Newfoundland men in the last war. Southern Rhodesia has mobilised its forces, and is giving us very welcome assistance by providing officers and men for service, both on land and in the air, outside the borders of this self-governing Colony.
There is little that need be said to-day about developments on the Home Front. National Registration Day was fixed by order as Friday, September 29. During the week beginning September 17 the local officers in charge of the enumeration mobilized their enumerators; and on September 24 these enumerators, totalling 65,000 in Great Britain, began delivering schedules for the purpose of the returns due to be made on the 29th. Enumerators are now making their rounds for the collection of schedules and the writing and issue of identity cards. The difficulties usually experienced by enumerators in finding people at home to receive or deliver the schedule were greatly increased by the present unusual family distribution and the black-out conditions at night. His Majesty's Government are glad, however, to be able to say that so far as reports are available, the whole machine appears to be working well and smoothly.
Finally, there is a matter which has attracted considerable attention and given rise to anxiety in the House and the country—the work of the Ministry of Information. As the Prime Minister said on Thursday last, the responsibility of the Ministry for news has not extended in any way beyond the provision of means for its communication to the Press. A review has now been made of the arrangements for the distribution of news, including the question of direct contact between the Press and the Departments. The subject has been fully discussed with the representatives of the Press with a view to meeting their convenience in the
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matter. As a result it has been decided that there shall be a reversion to the practice existing prior to the outbreak of war, whereby the Press representatives had direct contact with the various Government Departments, those Departments themselves furnishing the Press with all official communications in such manner as was found most appropriate. Each Department will therefore now make its own arrangements for communicating news to the Press representatives.
It has, however, been represented to my noble friend the Minister of Information that the mechanical facilities provided in the building occupied by the Ministry for the receipt and distribution of Government communications have proved of great convenience to a large section of the Press. There is no present intention to do away with these facilities, which will continue to be utilised as a channel by which official communications will be issued to the Press. In any case in which official communications are made direct by Departments, the same communications will be issued simultaneously through the central channel. My noble friend Lord Macmillan has asked me to add that some difficulty must be expected in connection with the supply and distribution of news in time of war: the revised arrangements now proposed are intended to reduce difficulties to a minimum and he feels sure that he can rely upon the Press to co-operate in their smooth working. The new arrangements will come into force on Monday morning next.
As regards the censorship, which is at present housed at the Ministry of Information, the responsibility for censorship must rest, like the responsibility for news and its distribution, upon the Departments which are concerned with the subject matter. Departments will, of course, exercise their own control as regards the news that they give out. The central censorship, which is concerned with material or messages submitted by the Press (voluntarily in the case of matter for use in this country) will, as before, be operated by censor officers guided by the directions of the Departments. In the event of questions arising as to any particular censorship operation, the Minister in charge of the Department affected will answer for it in Parliament. Sir Walter Monckton has been appointed Controller of Censorship; he will at the

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same time supervise the arrangements for the central communication of news to the Press.
4.20 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for the statement that he has made to the House and to say that I do not propose to-day to inaugurate a discussion upon it, but I shall put a Motion on the Paper which will enable your Lordships to comment upon it to-morrow. In doing so I would like to say that I think there may be rather more discussion to-morrow than there has been on previous occasions. If Parliament, which on the whole has done so well during recent weeks, is to maintain this position it must do more than merely formally receive these statements that are made. Therefore, whilst we shall try to co-operate as far as possible with the Government, I think there may be a little more criticism to-morrow than there has hitherto been.
4.22 p.m.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, may I respectfully suggest to the noble Earl the Leader of the House, in view of what my noble friend has just said and in view of the fact that I do not think there is a single member of your Lordships' House who wants to say anything in a speech which would in any way embarrass the Government or be useful to the enemy, that it would be advisable on these occasions of the discussion after the statement for this House to meet in Secret Session? I would ask the Government to consider that, because, although reticence is the chief quality of your Lordships' House, I feel that after a statement like the one we have heard to-day there are a good many members of your Lordships' House who would like to speak their mind rather openly, and I think that would be for the public good and also for the Government good.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, the Government will certainly consider the suggestion made by my noble friend Lord Ponsonby, but if the Session is to be secret I do not quite see how it is to be to the public good. During the last war I believe Secret Sessions were held on several occasions. I think I only attended one, because I was serving overseas throughout the period, but I
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understood that the Secret Sessions were by no means always secret, and that a good deal leaked out afterwards as to what had been said by various individuals and as to the general position that was disclosed in those Sessions. But certainly the Government will consider the matter and come to a decision about it.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, as the noble Earl must be aware, my Party has been considering this matter for another place. Though we expect discretion on the part of Ministers in a Secret Session, a person might inadvertently betray information, but a Secret Session does give opportunity for Peers who are not members of the Government to speak with greater freedom than they can under present conditions. We do not expect secrets from the Government, but we may be able to give the Government a few home truths.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, that may be so, but if those "truths" happen not to be truths, it is obviously right that the Minister should refute them, and then he may have to say more than he ought.

JUVENILE WELFARE.
4.25 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTERhad given Notice that he would call attention to the serious problem of juvenile welfare and the intensification of that problem brought about by war conditions; ask His Majesty's Government what steps they propose to take, particularly in view of the suspension of the National Fitness Council, to set up machinery for dealing with the problem; and move for Papers.
The right reverend Prelate said: My Lords, I mean to detain your Lordships only a short time in asking the Question which is on the Order Paper in my name, but I should like to say a few words in support of the subject that is raised and also to make suggestions to the noble Earl who is to reply. During the past few years since the last war there has been a most remarkable development in organisations for the benefit of the adolescent, especially those between the ages of fourteen and eighteen. No doubt in the first case they were often supported mainly with the negative purpose of keeping

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boys and girls from the streets, but increasingly they have become positive agents of the greatest importance for developing both the body and the mind of those who are to be the future citizens of the country. They have helped these boys and girls to use rightly their leisure time. I am not sure that it is always realised that while 114 hours in the week are spent in eating, sleeping and working, there are 54 hours which on an average are available for leisure.
I think it is true to say that last winter the various organisations for the youth of this country had never reached a higher pitch of excellence and efficiency than they did at that time, and now, quite suddenly and abruptly, a very large number of these organisations and clubs are in danger of being brought to an end. Many of them have already been brought to an end, and this is due partly to the fact that some of the leaders and managers of these clubs have been called away. Some have been called up to serve in the fighting forces, and others have volunteered to do different forms of National Service. Without leaders it is impossible to hold a successful club. But that is not all. A large number of the buildings which were used for club purposes have been commandeered or have been taken, sometimes by unauthorised persons, some for work in connection with the national effort, and the result will be that during the late autumn and this winter there will be a very large number of boys on the streets at night with nothing whatever to do, loafing very often at the street corners, or roaming about restlessly looking for some interest.
Now this happens at the very time when it is most important that organisation for juveniles should be as strong as possible. Juveniles are feeling as much as anyone the strain and the anxiety of our times. Their excitement shows itself often in restlessness, sometimes in noisiness and occasionally in acts which bring them within the reach of the law. During the last war I was in Portsmouth, and after the first year of the war one of the most difficult problems we had to deal with was the problem of the juvenile. So far as the boys were concerned they formed themselves into gangs, fighting with one another, and sometimes making themselves a real
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nuisance to others who were using the streets. There was nothing really inherent in the way of wrongness; it was the natural expression of high spirits and overstrained minds but it was undoubtedly a nuisance. It was impossible to suppress it by the ordinary methods of police action, and it was found necessary to form a large youth council whose sole purpose was to provide various kinds of recreation in the evening for these boys and girls.
Now that is the kind of problem which has already arisen in many of our towns to-day. There are large numbers of boys and girls who find the clubs to which they have been accustomed to go in the evening closed, and their ordinary recreations have come to an end. And I would remind the House that on this occasion this does not only affect the towns, but has occasioned a very serious problem in the country to which a large number of children have been evacuated from the dangerous areas. I am speaking at this moment only of some of the older children who have been quite suddenly placed in a country village. So far in most places things have gone on perfectly well. The evenings have been light and the children have found plenty which is new and of interest to them. But I cannot imagine what some of these children will do in the long winter evenings. They have always been accustomed to the brightness and excitement of the streets of the town and they will become restless if they are kept in all the evening. They will become unhappy, they will write to their parents asking them to move them away, and they undoubtedly will be a source of inconvenience to their hosts. Something I am quite sure will have to be done for these children.
There is the problem as I see it, and I would like, if I may, quite briefly to make three or four suggestions for the consideration of the noble Earl the President of the Board of Education. I hope that he will issue a circular to all the education authorities in the country bringing home to them the urgency of this problem and making suggestions to them as to how they may best meet it. I know that some education authorities have already taken action, but there are other education authorities who are quite unaware that there is any problem, and there are still other education authorities

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who, knowing that there is a problem, have not the slightest idea as to how they may best meet it.
I hope the noble Earl will issue a very strong circular making suggestions. I hope he will also do his best to see that buildings are available for clubs and various other organisations. Some buildings have been taken over quite unnecessarily. Lately I have been meeting a number of country clergy asking what they can do in their villages for these children, and again and again I have had the reply, "Our parish hall has been taken over for national defence purposes." At first I accepted that difficulty, but I heard it so frequently that at last I asked what it really meant. I found on investigation—I am speaking of country parishes, not towns—that it meant that some person, occasionally authorised but frequently unauthorised, had put up a large A.R.P. notice, had put an ambulance and some equipment into the hall, and then claimed the hall exclusively for the duration of the war. That is really nonsense. In many cases we have been urging that one small section of the hall might be used for this purpose and the rest of the hall might be made available for recreation and so on. I hope the noble Earl will be able to make his influence felt in this matter, and that he will encourage local education authorities to allow schools which are not now used for ordinary education to be used for club purposes in the evening.
But it is no use having club rooms unless there are leaders, and here I would like to express the hope that the noble Earl will make a very strong appeal for voluntary help. There are a number of people who are too old to take much part in many forms of National Service, and who are most anxious to do something. He might make an appeal to them. I am thinking also of another section of the population from which he might be able to draw a large number who would help in this way. There are a large number of boys who have just left their public schools who are not old enough yet to be called up for the Army but many of whom will feel—or their parents will feel—that it is not worth their while going to the University. During the interval between leaving school and joining the Army they might well be asked to help the clubs and other organisations. I have
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some reason for believing that such a request would meet with a very favourable response.
I received only this morning a letter from one who is especially qualified to speak on this matter. I will tell the noble Earl the name of the writer afterwards, but I am not authorised to mention it here. The writer said:
"There will, I anticipate, be quite a number of boys who will want to leave school at eighteen and a half and will be reluctant to go up to the University for such a short and uncertain time and will want some way of filling in the months intervening between school and military service. I believe that a call for volunteers from the President of the Board and, say, the National Council of Social Service might get quite a healthy response."
I think many of those boys leaving school would be thankful to feel that they were taking some active part in the work of the nation at the present time. Of course they would need training—I am not under any delusion about that—before they were able to take over clubs on their own responsibility. There is one other suggestion I should like to make, and that is that the noble Earl should appoint some committee—a committee of experts, a committee of those familiar with this subject—who would concentrate on thinking out what may best be done to solve what is really a very important problem for the future of the nation. I beg to move.
4.37 p.m.
LORD SOMERS: My Lords, I do not intend to keep your Lordships more than a minute or two, but I should like to say that those of us who are interested in the youth movement are intensely grateful to the right reverend Prelate for having brought this subject before your Lordships' House. I do not think I need impute ignorance to the noble Earl who is going to reply for the Government of the fact that buildings have been taken, without any real reason, from various movements interested in youth and used for other purposes. I feel certain that he will do his level best to get these buildings back to their original purpose. I would also like to urge, if I may, that the Government should make some definite pronouncement upon the value of the work done by leaders in the voluntary institutions. We have had from time to time rather half-hearted words from His Majesty's Government saying

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that this work is of national importance, but I think your Lordships will agree with the right reverend Prelate that it is all-important at the present time that those in the age group fourteen to eighteen should have their civic education continued.
I would like to see leaders made available. They can be got back from temporary jobs to which they have gone, to do the work which they took up first of all. Personally I have urged upon leaders that the work they are doing is of national importance, but it is very difficult to persuade them because we are all of one family. If someone outside the organisation—speaking for the Government say—would definitely state that the work is of importance during this emergency, we could get back many people who have been definitely trained for this purpose. I am sure the noble Earl will give every consideration he can to the suggestions made by the right reverend Prelate. We in the youth organisations are delighted and grateful that the right reverend Prelate has brought the matter before your Lordships.
4.40 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF ST. ALBANS: My Lords, may I intervene for a moment before the noble Lord replies? I should like to support the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester from my own experience of the last few weeks, both in country and town. The difficulty has arisen again and again that buildings which were erected for purposes of educational and social work among the young and among adults have been taken over and are really not being used, though they are prevented from being used for the purpose for which they were built. I only hope that whatever is said on behalf of the Government to-day will make it easier for those of us who are responsible in this matter to bring pressure to bear on local authorities.
Children who have been brought into the reception areas in large numbers have only half a day in school, or in some cases three days out of six in school and three whole holidays. Unless they are looked after, I am quite sure that when the winter months come some of the admirable foster-mothers who have been provided to look after these children will refuse to go on, and I shall not blame them, because the burden is very heavy.
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They are doing their best and are delighted to do it, and in many cases are doing admirably; but when it gets dark at four o'clock and they have two, or three, or perhaps four, extra children to look after, we are asking too much of them. I agree that we can get voluntary workers, but if our buildings are taken away the thing becomes perfectly impossible.
4.43 p.m.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, I think we must all feel grateful to the right reverend Prelate for raising this subject. If I detain your Lordships for a few minutes in replying to the debate, I am quite sure you will forgive me. It gives me the opportunity of making clear the Government's policy in regard to those young people, of whom we speak rather impersonally as juveniles or adolescents but who are really just as human as you or me: young boys and girls between the ages of fourteen and eighteen—or perhaps I should say between the ages of fourteen and twenty, when they come under the Militia Act.
I have always felt that even in peace time the treatment of this age-group forms one of the largest gaps in our Social Services. They are provided for as to rather more than one-third in full-time schools, secondary schools and junior technical schools, in technical institutes and evening institutes, in boys' and girls' clubs, and by the body represented by the noble Lord, Lord Somers, the Boy Scouts. Many of these boys' and girls' clubs are doing quite magnificent work, but no doubt many of them are suffering from most inadequate buildings and equipment. When you add to that the black-out, the general strain of war, the fact that an increasing number of their fathers and perhaps of their elder brothers are joining up, that possibly also some of their mothers are evacuated, and that frequently, as the right reverend Prelate and the noble Lord, Lord Somers, said, the club premises have been taken for some other purpose, I think we begin to see the sort of problem with which we are faced.
I am very glad the right reverend Prelate mentioned the village side, because there is no doubt that the social life of some villages, particularly in the long evenings, is going to be most severely damaged unless we can get back some of the buildings for the purpose for which

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they were intended. The boys and girls of whom we are speaking are the soldiers and skilled workers of two or three years hence. It is on their health and their intelligence and on the development of their characters that the future of this country depends. If the war is still going on in two or three years' time, then it will be for them to join the Army or to work as producers of munitions of war. If the war is over, it will be for them as workers and as citizens to help to rebuild the life of the country after the waste and ruin of this tragic struggle. Some of us have been a little shocked about the ways of life and the conditions of a certain proportion of the evacuees, particularly, I think, of adults more than children; but I hope that those who have suffered, as they may have, from these things will be brought to realise that it is due largely to the circumstances in which great masses of our people are compelled to live even to-day. From the age of fourteen, when a boy or girl leaves school, over the majority of them all supervision and authority of any social kind ceases. In war time virtues and vices are magnified, and what is a tragic wastage in peace time becomes in war time a festering sore.
The right reverend Prelate has already reminded your Lordships of what happened during the last war: it was that we waited until 1916, when that struggle had been going on for two years, before anything was done, and that then the demoralisation and the delinquency amongst the young had grown to such an extent that the Government was forced to take action. I hope that now we will take action from the beginning. The Central juvenile Organisation Committee was then set up under the Home Office. At about that time Mr. Fisher was invited to come into the Government and play his part as President of the Board of Education and he set to work, even in the midst of war, preparing what became known as the Fisher Act of 1918. A very great tragedy it was that that Act was never really put into force. I think the position to-day in regard to adolescents would have been entirely different from what it is, if that Act had been put into force.
But, though the day-continuation school provisions—which made allowance for a part-time release from industry for seven
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or eight hours a week of young people between the ages of fourteen and eighteen—were not brought into operation, one important section remained. The right reverend Prelate referred to the part that the local education authorities have played in this problem and the part that they could play. Under one of the sections of that Act—Section 86, I think it was—local education authorities were given power to make provision for young people of the age that we are discussing; but, owing to the fact that they have other calls on their finances and their energies, they have, with very few notable exceptions, as the right reverend Prelate has already said, been able to do comparatively little under that provision. I will certainly take note of the suggestion of the right reverend Prelate that we should circularise the local education authorities as to the urgency of this problem. I think he would be interested to know that already, as a matter of fact, before the war broke out, we had been doing so, and I am quite sure that one of the first proposals the new Committee, about which I will speak in a minute to your Lordships, will probably be with regard to such a suggestion.
It was really in order to try to meet some of these problems that the National Fitness Council was set up. Those of your Lordships who are familiar with this work will know that that organisation did quite excellent work, and I would like to take this opportunity of thanking the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and all his colleagues, both at headquarters and in the areas, for all the enthusiastic work that they did. I think that, in our desire to bring everybody who was interested into the work, there is no doubt that the Government did create a rather cumbrous machine. That was not the fault of the Council or of the area committees, but there is no doubt that that machine was extremely slow-working. I think we must all regret the inevitable suspension of the National Fitness Council during the war—inevitable if only because in these times a machine is essential that can act quickly and can act directly. But let us be quite clear that the suspension of the National Fitness Council does nothing but make our problem more pressing. The enthusiasm engendered by that body will only turn to disillusionment unless

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something is done to preserve and develop facilities.
We have been considering this problem during the last few days in order to decide what new machinery we should erect for dealing with this problem in war time. The Government have come to the conclusion that the best way of proceeding is that the Board of Education should make itself more directly responsible for this work than in the past, and I am accordingly setting up a special branch in the Board of Education for dealing with this problem. This branch will be responsible for the administration of such grants as may be made available. The Board will thus be in direct contact with the local education authorities and with the voluntary bodies who are doing the work in the country. Now, one of the main difficulties in the past, and one which unfortunately the National Fitness Council was never able entirely to overcome, was that of the lack of contact and understanding between the local authorities and the voluntary bodies. Local authorities, in fact, definitely resented, under the machinery of the National Fitness Council, having to approach the Board through an outside body. I am happy to be able to say now that all the parties have expressed their willingness to co-operate and to help on the new basis. The Government will be able to rely on the experience and advice of a Committee—just such a committee as the right reverend Prelate suggested—whose task it will be to advise me on matters affecting England and Wales and the Secretary of State for Scotland on matters affecting Scotland.
I think your Lordships might be interested to hear the names of the Committee. Mr. Kenneth Lindsay, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board, will be Chairman, and Mr. Ralph Assheton, who is Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Labour, will co-operate on the Committee, as it were. I think we are all aware of the amount of work and experience that the Ministry of Labour has had in the past in dealing with this problem. Then the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, who was formerly Chairman of the National Fitness Council, has consented to serve. Now we come to the representatives of the voluntary bodies. Sir Wyndham Deedes will come on as representing the National Council of Social Service. With him will
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be associated Miss Curwen, who is Vice-Chairman of the Standing Conference of National Juvenile Organisations, and Mr. Oyler, who is Chairman of that body. Sir Percival Sharp will serve for the general association of local education authorities, but I am happy to be able to say also that Mr. Charles Robertson will come on as representing the London County Council. He is Chairman of their Education Committee. Finally, one who is a very respected member of another place, one who also is well acquainted with the problems of Wales and who is also a Member of the Miners' Federation of Great Britain, Mr. George Hall, has consented to serve.
In addition, it has been arranged—and I think your Lordships will agree that the work of the Committee is likely to gain very much from this fact—that Scotland should co-operate directly in this work, and therefore Captain McEwen, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, will be a member, together with the Honourable M. Upton, who is Vice-Chairman of the Scottish Fitness Council, and Mr. E. M. Wedderburn, who is a member of the Scottish Central Council of Juvenile Organisations. In addition, Sir David Milne-Watson has consented to act as an adviser to the Committee on all matters affecting juvenile employment and industry, and I think all your Lordships will be very glad to hear that I have been fortunate enough to obtain the services of Lord Dawson of Penn, who will act in a similar capacity as regards medical and health questions. Both those gentlemen, I felt, it would have been improper for me to ask to serve on a Committee which was going to deal to a large extent in detail, but I am happy to feel that we shall have their services without their troubling to attend to all those details. Then representatives of the Home Office and other Government Departments will keep in touch with the work of the Committee, and will attend when matters come up of interest to them.
So much for the machinery—machinery which, I hope, will give the central guidance and drive that this work has hitherto lacked. But what of its task? Firstly, the question of premises. Your Lordships will realise that for the moment, with the shortage of labour and materials, new construction is likely to be out of the question, but there is this immediate

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problem, to which I have already referred, of examining with the appropriate Service Departments—and there I include the Civil Defence as well as the military—whether it may not be possible to restore at least some of the buildings which were taken during the first shock of the war. I do not think I need emphasize that statement. But there is the further question of using some of the evacuated schools in the towns, and other buildings of a similar type, even if it has to be done on a rather makeshift basis for the time being. And, secondly, co-ordination. The local authorities and the voluntary bodies have each of them made their contribution in the past, sometimes working together, but sometimes rather painfully unaware, I think, of what each other was doing. Now this co-operation, where it has existed, has to be strengthened. Where it does not exist it has to be brought to life. In fact, I should say that the marriage of the work of the local education authorities and the voluntary bodies was leaving each free to make their own peculiar contribution to perhaps one of the most important features of this new machinery we are creating.
And finally—a point that has already been referred to—there is the question of leadership. Even before war broke out both the Board and the National Fitness Council had already come to the conclusion that one of the best ways of helping this work among juveniles would be to encourage the provision of leaders and organisers, both whole-time and part-time; but with the coming of war this need has become very much intensified. The fact has already been mentioned that numbers—which I hardly like to contemplatc—have been already lost by the movement to services often of certainly no greater national importance than this. Those who can return to this work, having left it, should return to it, and I would venture to make this very definite appeal on behalf of His Majesty's Government, stressing the importance that they place on this work. But I would also appeal to a vast number of patriotic men—and women too—who volunteered to work and have not had their services accepted as yet, to realise what good work they could do in this direction; some perhaps over-age for the firing line, others, just leaving school,
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and not in the mood or the mind to go to the Universities for a year or two before they join up, as otherwise they might have done, and who are wondering how they can serve their country at the present moment. I cannot think of any better way of doing it than this, and I would be prepared to join in an appeal to them, and perhaps an appeal, to begin with, to the headmasters of schools, to help them to realise how useful they might be.
I have tried to touch briefly on just some of the tasks that must first, I think, come before this Committee. I want to assure your Lordships that we are going to pursue them with energy and with a due sense of their importance. I cannot help feeling that there is perhaps sometimes a danger lest in a period of emergency and war we tend to feel that everything of long-term value must be thrown overboard, and that the really practical man should think only in terms of wanting to win the war. But I ask myself, are we in fact going to have a morale necessary for winning the war if we make no effort to preserve, and even to develop, those things for which we say, and we feel, we are fighting? Or can we afford, even taking the shortest of views, to neglect our young people, whether we regard them as workers, or as fighters, or as future citizens? Surely the real fact is that the long-term and the short view are here quite indistinguishable. I think this debate has shown quite clearly that your Lordships take the view, which I believe is the view of the majority of people in this country, that if we win the war on the field of battle but the generation following us are not up to facing the struggle—and I think we have all by now recognised that there are going to be some very hard struggles in the future—then indeed we shall have scored only a very partial victory.
I do not believe myself that the conflict of interests and ideals that this country represents is going to be settled finally on the field of battle or in any treaty. It is going to be decided by the health, the skill, the intelligence, the staying power, and the character of the individual members of the different nations during the years, whether they be of war or of peace, that are ahead of us. They will be years during which there is not going to be any room for frills or luxuries, and when every proposal is

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going to have to pass the stern test of basic need. But I do not think a single member of your Lordships' House would for a moment contend that to prepare our coming generation for the future is a frill or a luxury. I earnestly hope that everyone who has applied himself, or is thinking of applying himself, to this problem will feel that in so doing he is performing a vital national service, and I trust that we may feel that we may proceed on our task with the knowledge of your Lordships' good will.
5.9 p.m.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, the noble Earl has just concluded his admirable speech by expressing a hope that his proposals will have the good will of your Lordships. I cannot refrain from giving myself the privilege of being the first to assure him—I am sure on behalf of your Lordships—that the good will is most cordially given. I venture to hope that his speech will be very widely reported, or at least that it may be the basis of some such circular as he may contemplate issuing to our local authorities. Sometimes those of us who raise particular matters to bring to the attention of the Government are not always very fully satisfied with the Ministerial replies, but I doubt whether there has ever been a matter raised by any member of your Lordships' House which has had so immediate and so satisfactory a response from the representative of the Government. I congratulate the noble Earl and his Department, and the Government if I may say so, on recognising so fully a vitally important problem.
I alluded to it in a few sentences when speaking a short time ago here about allowing boys of this age to volunteer for National Service in their spare time, or their whole time if possible. Perhaps the noble Earl will forgive me if I say he might reconsider his reply to that matter in the light of the very excellent speech he has made to-day. Meanwhile I endorse every word the noble Earl has said as to the need for not allowing the stress and preoccupation of the war to diminish the importance of this matter. The importance of the character and capacity of the future citizens becomes more obvious the more we think of it. Many of these boys themselves, if the war lasts, may be called up for active service, and all of
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them will be citizens at a very difficult time when the war is over which will make demands on the citizenship of this country of a quite peculiar kind. I wholly agree with what the noble Earl said about the grave misfortune that that large vision of the Fisher Act was not more immediately put into operation at the close of the last war, but in this respect, at any rate, we can make some endeavour to return to its principles.
I specially noted with pleasure the three plain points of the noble Earl's statement. First, that he has instituted a special branch of his Department to deal with this most important problem; second, that he has endeavoured to bring local education authorities and general and voluntary organisations together, and is assured of their consent; and, third, that he has appointed a Committee which, so far as I can recollect the names, seems to be an admirable body to give advice to the Board of Education on this matter. I need not dwell further on the points which have been made by the Bishop of Winchester and by the noble Earl himself, but I am very glad he recognises the growing importance of preserving premises so far as possible for these young people both in town and country. The possession of power is apt to be very intoxicating to those who are not accustomed to it, and appears very often in the country to have run to the heads of those gentlemen entrusted with it. I am quite certain that a great number of mistakes have been made in the premature commandeering of premises which might have been used for better purposes and in cases where other premises equally suitable were available. Nothing could be more timely than some reminder from the Government that those who represent the Civil Service Departments in different parts of the country should be a little more careful in their choice of the premises which they commandeer.
As to what has been said about leadership, it needs no words of mine to reinforce it. I am very much impressed by the noble Earl being able to say that he has the wish of the Government behind him in expressing the hope that numbers who have, from very patriotic motives, already addressed themselves to some form of National Service and have left their leadership of great movements such as the noble Lord, Lord Somers, represents, should be induced to return

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and to regard that as National Service quite as great as that which they have undertaken. In conclusion, I should like the noble Earl to understand, speaking on behalf of a great many people in different parts of the country, that we thank him for the statement he has made.
5.15 p.m.
VISCOUNT DAWSON OF PENN: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate has given your Lordships a very clear picture of the disadvantages which are entering into our local life on account of the activity of the A.R.P. It is only natural that a body which was roused by enthusiasm all over the country should in course of time represent what one might call an amorphous effervescence. The time has now come to bring it down to some more reasonable proportions. I would draw the attention of the noble Earl to this point. A.R.P. work is taking far too much of the attention of the local authorities. It is occupying too much of the attention of the local health authorities, and I would point out that this winter there are not only the difficulties to which the right reverend Prelate has referred, but there will be, almost inevitably, difficulties connected with the health of the younger people. You cannot introduce large numbers of new children into an area without importing a certain number of risks where infectious disease is concerned. We have to bear in mind that there are two ills in particular—measles and diphtheria—which will require the closest attention of the local health authorities during the coming months. It is no secret that these authorities have been considerably overworked in these past months—overworked in such a way that almost their more proper duties have become impaired.
It is inevitable, but it is a matter of regret, that the National Fitness Council has come to an end. It was doing considerable work under great difficulties, and on the whole it did its work well. It is some solace to us that the noble Earl has been able to announce a substitute to take its place, and perhaps in the circumstances of the war it will be a more efficient substitute. But I would like to call his attention to the fact that the body he is setting up will involve considerable expenditure of public money. Any war necessitates the curtailment and end of a large amount of public expenditure, and
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if that expenditure is involved in what I may call the furniture of our material civilisation, what matter? What does it matter if our furniture has to last for a few more years? But there are certain matters which will not brook delay, and amongst these matters there is none so important as everything that concerns the rearing and production of a healthy race to follow on those who have to take the responsibility of this war. We must apply the whole of our thought, without delay, to the question of those who are going to take our place and remake the world after the war is over. I can only hope that the scheme the noble Earl has put before us is but a foretaste of a larger policy on behalf of the Government concerning our population.
This is a very grave matter, and one which is inclined to slip out of the public view. We are concerned with making the very best of the children and youth we have, and doing everything, as the noble Earl himself said, to make them strong and fit in body and character, because on them the future nation depends. He went so far as to say that the war will not be won by the armies, that it will be won by those who are being trained now in order to remake the world after the war is over. Therefore I do appeal to the Government not to be content with this scheme of the noble Earl's, good as it is, but to set to work seriously to face the larger problem of population. They can leave it largely in the hands of experts, but it needs to have Government backing.
In regard to our population question I would point out that it is in a very serious position, and I can illustrate that by quoting briefly three facts. First, we are at present failing to replenish ourselves to the extent of 24 per cent., and that has been going on for some time. If you take one hundred women through the whole of their reproductive life, if our population is to be maintained they must produce in girl babies enough to replace the population. One hundred women must produce one hundred girl babies between them. That just keeps it level. In 1881 those hundred women were producing 150 girl babies—too many no doubt under our present circumstances. By the beginning of this century they were just replacing themselves, and now those one hundred women are only producing seventy-six. There is a fact

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nothing can alter. We are not replenishing ourselves.
I come to the second fact. Our population contains a steadily decreasing proportion of young people, and a steadily increasing proportion of elderly people. In 1931, taking the people under twenty and the people over sixty, the people under twenty in that year were three to one. Now that has steadily gone down. The proportion of youth has steadily gone down. In the next year (1940) it will only be two to one, and if the present trend goes on by 1962 those under twenty and those over sixty will show an equality. In other words the producers will equal the pensioners. That is the second fact that we cannot get away from. I am not so sure of this, but I think you will find that the only reason our total population has not begun to go down is that medical science has enabled the elderly to live much longer. Now I come to a third and even more significant fact. In 1921 we had 12,000,000 under fifteen at school; by 1951 we shall only have 6,000,000. How can a nation go on prospering and being great with such a steady decline in its youth and its production of children? I do not believe this question is insoluble. There is no nation in the world like the British who will undertake the reform of a thing if it is once convinced it is desirable, and as far as making it desirable, that is a matter of propaganda.
Another matter that ought to be considered is this. It is quite clear that the facilities for children to be born and the facilities for educating children must be greatly increased. This is one of the few countries where the children of the vast majority of the middle classes pay for their own children's education in public schools. It is my belief that this war will see the end of that for a very large number of this class, and that we shall have to assimilate our lives to those of most other civilised countries—for instance, France, the United States and Scandinavia—where the vast majority of the children are educated at the public expense in the secondary schools. I was recently in Sweden and made inquiries of what was the custom in that country. I found, if you took the whole of the country, that ninety per cent. of the children of the total population were educated in elementary schools, that when
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they had been in the primary schools a certain while they passed to the secondary schools, and that very little expense was expected of their parents until they reached the time when they wished to go to the University. In short I would suggest that the noble Earl, following up his own expression of opinion, should quietly face this question, and that this policy of increasing the population should be seriously undertaken by His Majesty's Government and not put off. It will not do to put it off; it has got to be seen to now. A scheme should be prepared so that these married couples who are otherwise willing to bear children should be saved some of the expense in return for the great service they do for the nation thereby.
5.28 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, if I detain your Lordships for one minute it is because we should not like it to appear as though those of us who sit on these Benches (when anybody does sit on them) are uninterested in this most vital question, and I should not like the right reverend Prelate to feel we were not grateful to him for introducing this matter to your Lordships' House. I would like also to recognise the value of the statement which the noble Earl has made on behalf of the Government. It appeared, as far as I could follow it by listening, to be constructive and hopeful for the future. I cannot say how much I personally feel the importance of this great matter. Boys very frequently go to the devil because nobody else seems to want them, and we ought to remember that the genius of a boy, if it is there, has to be encouraged by association, by leadership and in all kinds of ways. I speak in the presence of the most reverend Primate and the right reverend Prelate when I say I do not believe there is any joy that old people have that is quite so great as that which comes from seeing young people developing their personalities for future service. But we cannot regard that as being a mere automatic thing; it has got to be encouraged. Therefore I hope what the noble Earl has said will be followed up and that great good will come of it. The only remark I will make on what the noble Viscount who has just sat down said about what happened in 1931 is that it is not the only incident of that year which has to be regretted.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I only rise to thank the noble Earl for his reply. I knew that he would be sympathetic, but he has been much more than sympathetic: he has given us a most practical and helpful answer. The reply, if I may say so, is satisfactory in every way, and I hope that great publicity will be given to it. I withdraw my Motion, with the leave of your Lordships.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the 24th of July last committing the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House discharged, and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL STANHOPE: My Lords, may I remind your Lordships that I propose that we should meet to-morrow at three o'clock?
House adjourned at half-past five o'clock.