§ 4.7 p.m.
§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
§ Clause 5 [Power of Board of Trade to specify basic price, permitted increase, or permitted price]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThere are two drafting Amendments to this clause.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 18, leave out ("a") and insert ("the")
Page 4, line 28, leave out ("A") and insert ("The").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
§ Clause 8:
§ Enforcement by price-regulation committees.
§ (6) A prosecution for a contravention of any of the provisions of Section one of this Act shall not be instituted except by the Board of Trade upon request made to them as aforesaid:
§ Provided that a prosecution may be instituted by the Director of Public Prosecutions either—
- (a) if it appears to him that the prosecution ought to be instituted and that the local price-regulation committee, having been made aware of the matter, have failed to report it to the central price-regulation committee, or that that committee, having
1706 received a report thereof, have failed to request the Board to institute proceedings; or - (b) …
§
VISCOUNT MERSEY moved, after subsection (4), to insert the following new subsection:
Any person carrying on business in more than one locality shall have the right of representation to and hearing by the Central Price-Regulation Committee, subject to such person making a statutory declaration that uniform prices are maintained for the whole of his business in all localities.
The noble Viscount said: I apologise for putting in this manuscript Amendment so late in the day, but in point of fact the Bill as printed only came into my hands this morning. This Amendment is designed to protect the interests of the very large multiple ships, such as those of Woolworth, Marks and Spencer and Boots. It would be extremely onerous upon them if they had to send their secretary and their accountant all over the country to attend the meetings of the different price committees. Some of them have an enormous amount of Government work at present, and to ask them to send their officers to different parts of the Kingdom at the present moment would make considerable difficulty for them.
§ The question of uniform prices is also one which comes in the clauses of this Bill. In large multiple shops uniform prices are adhered to all over the country. Therefore in their case the question does not arise of different localities having different prices. Nor do the multiple shops keep separate accounts. So that really there is a case for some modification being made in the treatment that is applied to the very large undertakings. The drafting of the Amendment has not been easy, and I dare say it is not all it should be, but possibly the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill would consider the matter with the President of the Board of Trade, who is already informed about it, and make some suggestion at the next stage of the Bill. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 14, after subsection (4), insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Mersey.)
LORD STRABOLGIBefore the Lord Chancellor describes the Government's attitude, might I ask the noble Viscount 1707 who has moved this Amendment, firstly, whether it applies to the co-operative stores? I imagine it does by the wording of it. Secondly, whether they have been consulted about this Amendment? If he has consulted them, it will help my friends in another place to decide about it.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI find it unnecessary to trouble your Lordships with any argument as to the propriety of this Amendment. The noble Viscount was good enough to show me the words of the Amendment a few minutes before I came upon the Woolsack, and he will hardly expect me, in these circumstances, to be able to express any opinion as to whether this is a possible, or properly drafted, Amendment. I would take the opportunity of saying, however, that the Bill was in another place for a considerable time. It has been printed and available since November 1 in your Lordships' House, and in these circumstances an Amendment produced at so late a stage could hardly command my acceptance. But I will certainly take the opportunity of discussing the matter, for I fully understand the noble Viscount's desire to facilitate the convenience of large businesses such as he has mentioned. I will take the opportunity of consulting my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade to see whether any device can be suggested for meeting the circumstances. Your Lordships will not understand me to give any promise that such an Amendment will be introduced, but it will certainly be given the fullest consideration.
VISCOUNT MERSEYI am very much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount, and I withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThe next Amendment is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 23, leave out ("matter") and insert ("alleged contravention").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThe next Amendment is also drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 40, leave out ("matter") and insert ("alleged contravention").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in proviso (a) in subsection (6), after "thereof," to insert "or having themselves investigated the alleged contravention." The noble Viscount said: This is an Amendment to enable the Central Price-Regulation Committee to make their own investigation even in circumstances where the original complaint has not been referred to them. The Bill as drafted, and as brought to your Lordships' House, only empowers the Central Price-Regulation Committee to make an investigation of matters referred to them by a local committee. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 42, at end insert ("or having themselves investigated the alleged contravention").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 9 agreed to.
§ Clause 10:
§ Right of buyer to avoid prohibited transaction, or to recover excess price.
§ 10.—(1) The buyer under a sale, or an agreement to sell, made in contravention of Section one of this Act shall have the following rights, exercisable, subject as hereinafter provided, at his option.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words down to and including "Act" and insert:
(1) Where a prosecution has been instituted in respect of a sale of, or an agreement or offer to sell, any price-regulated goods in the course of any business at a particular price, and the person charged has been found guilty, then—
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: The Amendment which I now propose is 1709 necessary to give effect to an undertaking given in another place to consider a point urged upon my honourable and learned friend the Solicitor-General. The proposal is to leave out the first two lines of the clause so as to protect a trader from malicious and frivolous actions which might be begun by busybodies. The effect of the clause, in general, is to enable a person who has paid an excessive price to commence an action and recover the excess of price from the person who overcharged him. But the clause as it stands would allow proceedings of that sort to be brought in cases which had not had the full examination that an ordinary complaint will receive as the result of the investigation by the local price committees or the Central Price-Regulation Committee or, possibly, in criminal proceedings. The words which I propose to add will limit the civil remedy to cases where the price paid was as high as, or higher than, a price which was subsequently found on a prosecution to be illegal. This will prevent anybody from being harassed by unnecessary proceedings in which it will not be possible to have a full investigation of the circumstances as it would be before the Price-Regulation Committee. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 1, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert the said new words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE LORD CHAIRMANYour Lordships will notice on the last line of page 1 of the Marshalled List that there is a misprint. It ought to read: "any sale of similar goods, or under any agreement."
§ LORD MANCROFTThe Lord Chairman has referred to the words "similar goods." This Amendment, with which I am in accord, seems to have recast the whole of the earlier part of Clause 10; but as the Lord Chairman has referred to "similar goods" I wonder whether the word "similar" had been added afresh, and whether that word is meant to remedy the flaw which I brought to your Lordships' notice on Second Reading, regarding similar goods being forced upon a buyer to compel him to buy one article. Does this word "similar" give effect to the suggestion I made on Second Reading?
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe point my noble friend had in mind was 1710 not concerned with the Amendment I now propose. The expression "similar goods" is part of the Amendment before your Lordships' House, so that it may be provided that where a prosecution has taken place of a person who has charged an excessive price, the circumstances in which an excessive price has been charged for similar goods should not have to be examined a second time.
§ LORD MANCROFTI am much obliged to the noble and learned Viscount.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (4), to insert:
(5) The rights conferred by this section shall not be exercisable by a person who is himself liable to punishment by reason of his having aided, abetted, counselled or procured, the contravention in question.
The noble and learned Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to withdraw the right of action to recover an excess price from persons who are themselves parties to the prosecution. I am informed that already, in recent weeks, speculators have been approaching manufacturers or wholesalers inviting them to sell goods at prices which are obviously in excess of the proper price in the hope of being able to re-sell the goods and make a profit. This Amendment will prevent such persons, when they find their hopes disappointed, from taking proceedings to recover the excess price.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 25, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to.
§ Clause 14 [Exception for sales by auction, or for export]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI have to move a drafting Amendment, which is intended to cover contraventions of Clauses 11 and 12 in addition to Clause 1.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 38, leave out ("provisions of Section one") and insert ("preceding provisions").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 15:
§ Saving for rights of third parties.
§ 15. The illegality by virtue of this Act of any transaction shall not prejudice any rights 1711 acquired by any person without notice of the facts rendering it unlawful.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out all words after "person" and insert "other than a person who is guilty of a contravention of this Act in respect of the transaction, or who is liable to punishment by reason of his having aided, abetted, counselled or procured, such a contravention." The noble and learned Viscount said: Clause 15 in its present form suggests that a person who pays a price knowing it to be too high, commits an offence ipso facto. It has been thought not right that a buyer should be treated as a party to an illegal transaction merely because he buys something that he requires at an excessive price. I think this was perhaps the point that my noble friend Lord Mancroft had in mind. On the other hand, if a buyer induces a trader to sell something to him by offering an excessive price, then he may be considered as an aider and abettor. The words which are proposed to be inserted here in place of the words left out, will render such persons, that is to say, aiders and abettors, subject to the consequences of having entered into an illegal transaction with all the disabilities attending that position.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 3, leave out from ("person") to the end of the clause and insert the said new words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 16 and 17 agreed to.
§ Clause 18:
§ Offences by corporations.
§ 18. Where a person convicted of a contravention of any of the provisions of this Act is a body corporate, every person who, at the time of the contravention, was a director or officer of the body corporate shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence, unless he proves that the offence was committed without his knowledge, or that he exercised all due diligence to prevent the contravention.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out all words from and including "offence," where that word first occurs, to the end of the clause and insert:
contravention, unless he proves that the contravention was committed without his consent or connivance and that he exercised all such diligence to prevent the contravention as he ought to have exercised having regard to the nature of his functions as a director or officer of that body and to all the circumstances.
§ The noble and learned Viscount said: Clause 18 deals with the case of a contravention by a body corporate and it was thought fit to insert a provision by which directors should not escape responsibility merely by saying that the corporate body was the subject of the prosecution. But then the criticism was made in another place that it might be open to a director, by some ingenious device, to evade responsibility under the clause as drawn, and this Amendment is the result of an undertaking given to reconsider the case. It will prevent a director evading responsibility merely by leaving the price fixing to some subordinate official and giving directions that he is to know nothing about it. These words will catch a director who is minded to evade the liability which he ought to bear. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 10, leave out from ("that") to the end of the clause and insert the said new words.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD STRABOLGIMay I congratulate the Government on this addition to the Bill? If I may say so, I believe it is valuable and it also appears to meet the case, not only of the wilfully criminal director but also of the careless director who pretends to know nothing about it, who draws his fees and shares of the profits and that sort of thing, and does not do his duty as a director. Before your Lordships' House I have drawn attention to the state of affairs on other Bills, and Lord Templemore has always declared himself sympathetic to some means of dealing with these people. I am very glad that the Government in this Bill have seen the wisdom of introducing these words.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 19:
§ Powers of Board of Trade for purposes of this Act.
§ (4) The Board may make regulations for prescribing the procedure to be followed in relation to anything required or authorised to be done under this Act, otherwise than in relation to proceedings in any court, and generally for giving effect to the provisions of this Act.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, the next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 29, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, after subsection (3), to insert:
(4) An order made by the Board of Trade in exercise of the power conferred on them by the First Schedule to this Act to specify matters to which regard is to be had in fixing the permitted increase may provide that this Act shall have effect in relation to transactions effected before the coming into operation of the order, in like manner as if that matter had been specified in the said Schedule as originally enacted.
The noble and learned Viscount said: My noble friend Lord Mancroft, on the Second Reading of the Bill, drew attention to a point on the First Schedule. I think my noble friend made the point that the power ought to be given to the President of the Board of Trade to make any addition to the First Schedule retrospective. We have adopted my noble friend's suggestion and this Amendment is to give effect to it. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 35, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ LORD MANCROFTI am very much obliged; the Amendment completely meets my point.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (4), after "court," to insert "or on an appeal under this Act to the referee." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is put down to prevent the Board of Trade's power to make regulations overlapping the jurisdiction of my noble and learned friend to make rules governing the proceedings on appeal before the referee, which is in fact an appeal from an order made by the Board. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 39, after ("court") insert ("or on an appeal under this Act to the referee.")—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 20 agreed to.
§ Clause 21 [Application to Scotland]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThe first three Amendments are all drafting.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 13, line 31, leave out ("matter") and insert ("alleged contravention")
Page 13, line 34, leave out ("the matter") and insert ("it").
Page 14, line 9, leave out ("matter") and insert ("alleged contravention").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThere is also a drafting Amendment consequent upon another Amendment already made to Clause 8, and I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 12, after ("thereof") insert ("or having themselves investigated the alleged contravention").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ First Schedule [Matters to be regarded in fixing permitted increase]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThere is here a drafting Amendment consequent upon the insertion of a new subsection (4) to Clause 19.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 24, leave out from ("Schedule") to the end of line 25.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
§ Second Schedule: