Lords Sitting of 11 May 1939

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
BRISTOL WATERWORKS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
LONDON BUILDING ACTS (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
CROYDON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

MARRIAGES VALIDITY BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to remove doubts as to the validity of certain marriages; and to move that the Bill be now read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

CAMPS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
4.16 p.m.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (EARL DE LA WARR): My Lords, in proposing that this Bill be given a Second Reading I would say that all of us must remember a debate that took place in your Lordships' House at the beginning of the year, in which many of your Lordships took part and suggested proposals some of which have proved to be of the greatest use in the drafting and preparation of this Bill. If you will look at the Bill your Lordships will see that it is a very short one; but I do not think that therefore we ought to feel that it is by any means unimportant.
1008
Your Lordships are all very well aware of the genesis of this development. It was made first and foremost to supplement in a small way our main efforts for evacuation, which are based on billeting. We have always made it quite clear from the beginning that we did not feel it was likely that camps could ever be in any sort of way a substitute for billeting, but, in so far as they are there, they might be very useful as a supplement to billeting. The feature of this proposal which has most attracted the public imagination is the fact that, if these camps are not needed for the purposes of war, then they have a very definite, positive and permanent use for the purposes of peace.
This general interest in and appreciation of the importance of camping has been growing for many years. Boys' clubs and girls' clubs, the boy scout and many other juvenile organisations, have every year been taking their members to the country, and the growth of various other movements has shown the increasing interest taken in the subject. I think we all feel that no one in the country has done more as a pioneer of this idea than His Majesty the King himself, who first started what we all have come to know as the Duke of York's Camp. In addition to what we are doing, the National Fitness Council have lately approved something over twenty proposals for assistance to voluntary agencies. The position at the moment with regard to school camps—and I think we are really discussing the subject to-day primarily in terms of school camps—is that at the present moment there are in existence twenty local education authority school camps. In the Special Areas there are sixteen additional camps giving a fortnight a year to children to the number of 44,000. The intention under this Bill is to construct another fifty camps. Whether the funds that have been made available will be able to provide exactly that number or not, has yet to be ascertained from experience. Taking into account what has been done and what it is intended to do under the Bill, we can say that when the new camps are erected approximately 300,000 school children a year will have a fortnight in the country.
Some of your Lordships may say that in relation to the elementary school population in towns that is not enough. While we all feel that it is desirable to do as much as possible, I think we should

1009
also be prepared to admit that that is a very good start. As President of the Board of Education, and therefore as one tending to look at this question rather from the point of view of getting the maximum amount cut of the camps for the benefit of the children, I think there is a lot to be said for treating this as an experiment and trying to learn what we can from what has been done. Inevitably, in the first camps that we build, even if we do not actually make mistakes, we are bound to find things which can be improved later in the general layout and construction of buildings. It seems to me that really this opens a new field in the technique of education. These are going to be school camps, but it would be the greatest pity and the greatest waste if these children were taken to the country and we then proceeded with the normal process of education. The health side, physical fitness, gardening, the organisation of social life spent together, the feeding of the children, the enjoyment of instructive leisure in the countryside, learning what to look for in the countryside and how to treat it, bringing a practical element into the study of biology that is of necessity very theoretical in the towns—all these possibilities open out before us. Therefore we are right, to a certain extent, to regard this as a beginning, as an experiment.
Now, if I may, I will turn for a moment to the clauses of the Bill. I have said that our intention is to erect fifty camps. Of those forty-three will be in England and seven in Scotland. If we cannot quite complete that number, I think the problem for the moment before us is to get on with the full number we can construct, and at a later date we can consider the future. Under Clause 1 of the Bill, provision is made for a Camps Corporation to carry out the work outlined in the Bill for England and Wales. There is already in existence a special Housing Association for Scotland and to that Association is handed over the task for Scotland. For carrying out this work £1,200,000 is provided under this clause. Under Clause 2 powers of compulsory purchase are given, and in the matter of protection of private interests, your Lordships will notice that the procedure adopted will be that provided in the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, with all its safe-
1010
guards. We hope very much that it may not be necessary to call these compulsory powers into operation—a great deal of survey work has been done and there are very few signs that it will be necessary—but if we are going to get on with the task we felt it necessary to have these powers.
Your Lordships will see that Clause 3 contains exemptions from various building and planning restrictions. I think that is a point that may well, at first sight, cause a little concern to some of your Lordships, but I can give you an assurance that it is the intention of the Ministry of Health to consult closely with local authorities on all questions of siting and planning, including the provision of services and so on. Local authorities will have the right to make representations to the Minister before final approval is given. The Camps Corporation have been fortunate enough to be able to arrange for Mr. Tait, a member of a very well known firm of architects, surveyors and planners, to be at their disposal for consultation with regard to the buildings themselves. I hope your Lordships will agree that that is a very important point, because we are going to put camps in rural surroundings, and I personally feel it is vital that we should see to it that buildings are erected of a type that shall become a part of the countryside and not be a permanent eyesore. That is very important for the future of the camps themselves, because unless that is done they will be a permanent source of resentment to everyone living around them. In addition, I am glad to say—though I am afraid I cannot at the moment announce the name, because we have not yet had a reply—that at the suggestion of the Minister of Health the English Camps Corporation have in the last few days written to a gentleman who I think would commend himself to every one of your Lordships for his knowledge and experience of town and country planning, inviting him to be a member of the Corporation.
We pass to Clause 4, which deals with a point that was brought up at considerable length by a number of your Lordships in the debate which we had in February. It makes provision for using what one might call the "permanent core of unemployed" in the work of construction. I am afraid it may not apply to very large numbers, because the great bulk of this work will be thoroughly

1011
skilled work. But in so far as it is possible this clause will be operated, and the method of its operation will make it possible for compensation to be given to the Corporation for any cost that may thereby be entailed. I think that is also an important point, and I remember venturing to mention in that debate that it would be most regrettable if we were to give a limited sum of money to the Camps Corporation and then decrease their power of providing camps by compelling them to use less efficient labour at greater expense. That possibility, however, is provided against. Finally, Clause 5 provides for an annual report to be laid before Parliament. I think your Lordships will agree that, when we set up these outside bodies or corporations to spend public money and carry out important public functions, it is desirable that their work should be kept in the closest touch with Parliament and that powers of Parliamentary criticism should be maintained.
I have tried to lay before your Lordships very briefly the main provisions of this Bill, and I hope you will agree that the sooner its provisions are passed into law the better, so that we may get on with the construction of the camps. In the meanwhile, during the last few months, the Corporations, although perhaps formally not in existence, have not been idle. In England and Wales already twenty-five sites have been approved, and the Scottish Association have also been active. In fact, I have been told that, although they are only to have seven camps, they have already approved no fewer than ten sites, so it certainly looks as though they have been most active. I think we shall also be reassured, from the point of view of getting on with the task, by knowing that we have been fortunate enough to obtain the services of one of your Lordships, the noble Lord, Lord Portal, as Chairman of the Camps Corporation for England and Wales; and the noble Lord, Lord Traprain, as Chairman of the Scottish Association. I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl De La Warr.)
4.35 p.m.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, my noble friend Lord Addison, as a former
1012
Minister of Health, would have wished to be here to support this Bill, but he is presiding over the County Agricultural Committee of which he has been appointed Chairman by His Majesty's Government, for certain war preparations, and he could not attend. He asked me to express our support of the Bill in principle and to make one or two brief observations. I rather wish the administration of this Bill, when it becomes an Act, could be under the noble Earl as Minister of Education. As we understand it, these camps are to be used principally for children and, in the holiday season, for Boy Scouts and other juvenile organisations, and it seems more appropriate that the Board of Education should have them rather than the Ministry of Health. However, the principle is good and we welcome it.
Apparently the original idea was to provide these camps for evacuation purposes, and, as I have followed the debates in your Lordships' House and in another place, the idea of using them for educational purposes, and for children's holidays as a change from overcrowded cities, and so on, was a secondary thought, an afterthought. Never mind about that; out of evil has come good, and we hope that the management and provision of these camps will be a permanent part of our educational and holiday system. We furthermore regard this measure as only a beginning, and we hope, if the experiment—as it is, of course—is successful, it will be extended in the future as more money is available and as the Treasury can be forced to disgorge. I hope that the position of certain semi-philanthropic societies who have done much pioneer work in the way of providing camps for families—not only for children—will be safeguarded and that they will be recognised and brought into consultation. I am thinking particularly of the Co-operative Holidays Association, of which the most reverend Prelate the Archbishop of York is president and which since 1893 has done very good work in this direction and has blazed the trail for this whole policy.
Now I touch on a very thorny subject: why are these camps to be used only for children or juveniles in the holidays? You have a yearly increase in the number of workpeople who are receiving holidays with pay. Some alarm—this is where the subject is thorny—has been

1013
generated among those who manage the commercial camps, the holiday camps that cater for people who desire to take their holidays in this kind of way on a commercial basis: they fear that there will be unfair competition. Then there has also been a very shrill cry of alarm from the seaside landladies, and so on. We think, however, that this alarm is really without foundation. The annual increase of about a million people in the past few years, and in the people who will get holidays with pay, means a vast new class of people who for the first time will have the opportunity of getting away with their families for an annual holiday. It is difficult to see how they are to be catered for. Your Lordships know perfectly well that in the brief holiday season the seaside and holiday towns are very overcrowded as it is, and now you have these millions of extra families—not of persons, of families—seeking for places at which to take their holidays. I should have thought that these camps, especially if more of them were built, could be used in the holiday season, not only for school children but also for adults and their families.
I desire to say on behalf of my noble friend that while we welcome the arrangement for children being taken away under their teachers for a fortnight's class, as has been envisaged, in addition to that some of the camps at any rate should have accommodation for adults, which is slightly different from the accommodation required for children, so that adults could use them in the holiday season. I have had a little to do with the commercial camps and have taken an interest in them. They are very well run, but are rather costly—they must be, with the amenities and pleasures that are provided—for the ordinary artisan's family. They are all right for a young, well-paid workman who is a bachelor, or for professional men or shopkeepers, but the ordinary artisan and his family find it too expensive to go to a commercial holiday camp. Therefore there is a gap which I think the Government might help to fill by this Bill in the future, by providing for the families of lower-paid workmen who now get holidays with pay, or in other cases without pay, places where they can get good and cheap holidays under healthy conditions. That would be of great benefit to the health of the community, and I hope that that aspect of the matter
1014
has not been lost sight of. I repeat that we are not deaf to the possible alarm of those who run commercial camps, but I do not believe that they need suffer any unfair competition.
The only other matter to which I wish to refer is this. It is a question which I would like to ask the noble Earl in charge of the Bill. He has told us about certain sites having been already surveyed and chosen in England and Wales and Scotland. When will work be commenced on these camps, and when will the camps be ready? The season is slipping away. The Bill was brought into your Lordships' House on May 4. It is now May We have been a long time about this matter. Starting with the idea of having camps for evacuation, I should have thought that the Government might have moved in this direction at least a year ago. I must express my regret to the Leader of the House at the continuing slow pace of the Government in these matters. I am not referring now to the Navy, but to the general slow pace of the Government's progress in these matters. They are far too dilatory, and they must really wake up to the need of speed. This is one more example of their slow progress, and I would ask when are these camps going to be ready for this and their original use of evacuation?
4.43 p.m.
LORD ELTISLEY: My Lords, I would like to make observations on one or two points. I think there is no one who will criticise or cavil at the objects of this most excellent Bill. At the same time, there are one or two matters which I think should receive a little more consideration on the Committee stage than they have yet obtained. For instance, what safeguards are going to be incorporated into the Bill when it becomes an Act to ensure that there shall in every case be a competent person or persons to deal with discipline in the camps and to ensure decent standards of management and control? The Bill leaves all reference to that unsaid. Presumably this company which is going to be set up will have that matter properly provided for, but I should have been glad if the Bill had imposed some obligation on the company making it definitely responsible for general decent standards of control of the camps. I think that too much importance cannot be attached to that aspect of camp life.

1015
One great advantage of the camps will be to bring better health and fitness and I am quite sure that in this matter of permanent camps we are taking desirable steps for the good and advancement of our people.
4.45 p.m.
LORD PHILLIMORE: My Lords, neither do I rise to put any obstacle in the way of this Bill or to speak in any private or landlord interest, but there is one point on which I think the Bill should be strengthened and that is from the local government point of view. I am always rather disappointed that the Benches opposite do not champion local government in this House more than they do. We hear the champions of the preservation of commons and footpaths, and so on, but it is very seldom that we hear a good word from the Party opposite for local government. One would have thought that making haste was not always the quickest way to get good results, and in particular one would have thought that if you were going to achieve quickly an object you had very much at heart, you would consult those who knew most about the circumstances concerned. Those, of course, in this case, are the local authorities. Now this Bill has fallen into the same trap, if I may use that word, into which other Bills have lately fallen, in that it does its very best to eliminate the local authorities before it is too late.
We have an instance of that, in the first place, in the abolition of the by-laws as far as these particular camps are concerned. To that I do not raise any particular objection, but I do raise a very particular objection to the fact that the consultation with the local authority, in the shape of the town-planning authority, has been entirely eliminated from the Bill until after action has been taken. My own county council, who will be recipients of some of these children, have addressed themselves to the County Councils' Association on this point. The local authority, the town-planning authority in our case, have now spent rather more than ten years in a most careful and detailed survey of their own countryside. They have allotted certain areas as rural and agricultural zones, others as business zones, and others as development zones, and so on, and they have acquired very full and useful knowledge
1016
of the use to which land in their district can be put. They are obviously the people to be consulted first.
This Bill, whatever may be the intentions of the Minister who will apply it—and I was glad to hear from the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that it is intended to keep in touch with the local authorities—does in effect cut out the town-planning authority until action has already been taken. A little further on in his speech the noble Earl underlined this fact by saying that the Corporation had already definitely approved of twenty-five sites in England and Wales. He did not say "approved after consultation with the local authority," and presumably that consultation has not taken place. It is true that in the Bill the local authority, and the town-planning authority, are to be notified when camps are to be proposed, but they are not consulted. This to my mind, is one weakness in the Bill, and anyone who had experience of the use of land in a hurry during the last Great War will, I think, agree with me that it would be a mistake to regard this, as I think the noble Lord opposite pointed out, as a purely emergency and evacuation measure, and nothing more.
I notice that the Minister who introduced this Bill in another place used these words:
"The companies will make arrangements for the use of camps by holiday makers of any kind."
In fact there is no saying for what purpose, or for what people, these camps may not be used, and we have to look a long way ahead. It is, therefore, essential that the authorities and the local services, who know the local possibilities and know the questions of drainage, supplies, etc., should be consulted from the very beginning, and be in an authoritative position to be consulted. That is the point which I really want to make, and which I hope to raise again on the Committee stage. It is a point that was touched upon by, I think among others, Mr. Ellis Smith in another place, and I do not feel that this House would like legislation to pass through which did not support the position of local government authorities in this matter.
4.51 p.m.
VISCOUNT ASTOR: My Lords, this question of camps and various issues con-

1017
nected with it were debated in your Lordships' House less than three months ago, and on that occasion such general approval was expressed of the principles and underlying ideas of camps that it is not surprising that to-day your Lordships' House is full, and that there is a general measure of support for the Bill introduced by the Government. In the few remarks I shall make I shall mainly put queries to the noble Earl, in order to elicit from him information on certain points. First of all, what is the present attitude of the local education authorities? How far are they prepared to play up and utilise the camps? The noble Lord who has just spoken has indicated the very important part which they are inevitably bound to play. These camps provide, I understand, for the accommodation during the course of a year of about a quarter of a million elementary school children. There are roughly four and three-quarter millions of elementary school children, so it is quite easy to see that only a very limited proportion of the elementary school population will have an opportunity of spending a fortnight in these camps. I hope that the noble Earl's reply to that will be that this is only a first step, and that the attitude of the education authorities is such as to indicate approval and support. Nothing would be so tragic as to have these camps built and that they should be unoccupied in any part of the year.
That brings me to the vitally important question of finance. I notice that the Government propose to give a grant in aid of 20 per cent. to education authorities for elementary school children, but that the grant is to be increased to 50 per cent. for secondary and technical school children. I wonder why that difference has been made. I would like to press the noble Earl and ask him to use his influence with the Treasury to have the grant to education authorities increased from 20 to 50 per cent. for elementary school children, more especially as, I understand, Scottish educational authorities are to have the advantage of a 50 per cent. grant. I do not quite know why they should have such a much bigger grant than is made in England. The second purpose for which they are to be used is for juveniles between the elementary school age, fourteen, and nineteen, when, under the new Act, they will go into Service. I hope
1018
very much that the preliminary negotiations indicate that the big voluntary organisations are ready and willing to use these camps in holidays times. I do not quite know on what principle—perhaps the noble Lord could tell us—the charges are fixed which will be made to these voluntary organisations. Is it going to be the same as for the education authorities? What is to be the price charged for the use of a camp when it is used by one of these voluntary associations? And is it necessary to make any adaptation in the structure of the camp in order to accommodate this different type of youth?
Then I would like to say a word in support of a third section of the community, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi—namely, those millions of people who are for the first time going to have holidays with pay. Noble Lords know that a certain number of firms have up to date provided holidays with pay, and the tragic thing is that in a large number of cases the men and women who have had an opportunity of taking a holiday away from home have not been able to afford it. At one time the boarding-house keepers and those who are associated with the commercial camps were afraid of the competition of these new camps. I believe that that fear is unfounded. In the commercial camps charges range, I understand, from £2 5s. to £3 3s., and when it comes to lodging houses by the seaside the total which a man going with his wife and children would have to pay, including railway fares and other expenses, could easily run up to £5 a week. As a large proportion of these wage earners have an income of something like £3 a week, it is quite obvious that unless a limited number of the camps are earmarked for their use we are really going to make no substantial provision towards assisting this very large section of the population in this matter. I believe it is to the interest of the boarding-house keepers and the commercial camps to encourage these wage earners to start taking a holiday away from home in these Government camps. If they do that, later on, particularly if they get an increase in wages, they will be able to go into the slightly more expensive commercial camps, or patronise lodgings at the seaside.

1019
When we were discussing this three months ago I quoted a statement from the Manchester Guardian that there were something like 600,000 children who were never able to get away from home at any time of the year for a holiday. When we talk of holidays with pay for adults, let us remember the need of their dependent children, and when we urge the Government definitely to earmark one, two or three of these camps for the use of these millions of people—I believe it is nine millions or, if you include dependents, nearly twenty millions—who will be getting paid for holidays, let us remember that at the present moment they will not be able to go away from home for their holidays. If the Government propose to do that, it is quite evident that they will have to earmark some of the camps, because a camp which is built on the dormitory principle is not suitable for providing accommodation for a family. During the debate three months ago I asked the noble Earl whether the Government would rule out the possible acquisition of country houses, and I understood that he indicated that it would not be ruled out. I do not know whether he can give us any information on this, because it seems to me that the Corporation might acquire one or two country houses which would be eminently suited for this adult population that I have been speaking about.
One other point. There has been some discussion as to whether these camps should be built in the open, or whether an attempt should be made to conceal them, and thereby provide shelter from raids. I believe that if an attempt is made to conceal them in woods or in valleys that will in effect be an invitation to any raiding squadron to bomb them. If they are obviously school camps out in the open a raiding aviator is far less likely to drop a bomb on them than if they are concealed, and he gets the impression, possibly, that they are connected with munitions or a military camp. I was very glad the noble Earl was able to indicate that the Corporation would to a certain extent give employment to young unemployed, partly for the purpose of re-equipping them physically, and I hope he will do what he can to keep that in the picture. I am perfectly certain that the Government, by the introduction of this measure, are initiating and launching
1020
a movement which has enormous possibilities for good for both the juvenile and adult populations.
5.1 p.m.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER: My Lords, I want to join with noble Lords who have already spoken in welcoming this Bill. A Minister has rarely been able to introduce a Bill which has met with such universal welcome from all sides and all Parties. I am not concerned with this Bill so much as an emergency measure as with it as a very valuable peace-time social reform. When the present tension and strain are over we may look back upon these camps as one of the few happy results of these times. I welcome this Bill because it will do something to bridge the gulf between town and country. It is sometimes hardly realised how wide that gulf is. In our great towns there are a very large number of children who, notwithstanding all the efforts of country holiday funds, know nothing whatever about the country, its sights, its objects, or its interests. They grow up into citizenship, and the country is still something entirely remote from them. They are not interested in it or in its problems. This state of affairs is a real danger, for a country suffers from grievous weakness when its agriculture is so neglected. These camps also, I understand, will be used in holiday times for boys and girls between the ages of fourteen and twenty. That, again, is a valuable contribution to the solution of a real problem. One of the great difficulties which organisers of boys' clubs have had to face is finding camp sites. I remember spending months some years ago, trying to find a suitable site for a boys' camp within reasonable reach of London, and completely failing to do so. These camps will be used in the holidays for these boys and will thus be of great value.
There are one or two points I want to raise. One has already been raised by the noble Viscount who has just spoken—namely, what is the meaning of a grant of 20 per cent. instead of 50 per cent.? It does seem strange and I think this lower grant may possibly affect the usefulness of these camps. Another point is the great importance of considering not only the position of these camps in relation to towns and traffic and so on, but the actual site. I have known many

1021
camps which have been placed in beautiful surroundings but which have had to be evacuated whenever the weather became bad. I have known camps bought at considerable price which afterwards have been discovered to be built on clay soil or in some position liable to flooding. Experts from the centre do not always discover these weaknesses in time, and it is very important that local advice should be consulted. I was once offered, not far from London, a most attractive-looking site almost as a gift. I went to see it. Everything looked most attractive, and I was rather surprised that such an excellent site should not have been built over. I asked a porter at the railway station if he knew anything about this place and why it had not been built over. "Oh," he said, "it is flooded every five years." There are sites which, in dry weather, in a fine summer, are most suitable for a camp, but which, if the weather is unfavourable, are quite impossible.
I hope also due precautions will be taken about health. Illness can run very rapidly through a children's camp. Sometimes parents, unwilling to disappoint their children, allow them to go when there is some risk of their developing an infectious illness, and when they are in the camp the conditions are so different from the conditions of their own homes that all sort of complaints may very easily arise. The question of health is a very serious one in connection with camps of, say, 300 children. Though sometimes the local medical officer of health may be quite able to deal with the problem, not every medical officer of health is capable of dealing with the problem of 300 or more children suddenly brought into his district.
The last point I want to make has already been lightly touched on by one noble Lord who spoke earlier. However important these matters are, it is even more important that there should be the right kind of manager for these camps. The whole success of a camp depends not so much on the site as on the manager. A camp can very easily be turned into a bear garden if there is an incapable manager. A manager who is only a disciplinarian leads to rebellion; a manager who is only a good organiser, without imagination, soon has a camp in which everyone is bored and irritable; and the manager who is simply
1022
sympathetic, without discipline, very soon has a camp which is chaos. Just as you need a certain amount of training for successful managers of housing estates, so for these camps you need really experienced people. The children will be there not only for education. They will have to be cared for during their leisure hours. They will not be going home to their games or their meals. There will be long hours to fill up. Unless something is provided for children to do in these hours, the difficulties will be very great indeed. That is true of older children, but no one can deny the importance of it to the younger children of whom we are now thinking. Therefore, quite apart from the educational arrangements which will be made for these camps, I hope steps will be taken to see that in every case there is a thoroughly capable manager. I share with others who have spoken the regret that so few of these camps are to be started, but I look upon this as an instalment. The noble Lord, Lord Portal, who is to be at the head of this movement, has such driving power and is such a capable organiser that I quite hope that within a very short time there will come an irresistible demand for more of these camps.
5.9 p.m.
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I should like to support this Bill in general and to congratulate the Government on introducing it. Like my noble friend Lord Phillimore, I should like to make some observations on Clause 3, which allows these companies, with the consent of the Minister, to override town-planning schemes. I know that these camps are urgently required, and I know too, that very valuable safeguards have been inserted in the Bill in another place to ensure that the voice of local opinion is heard before final approval is given. Nevertheless the fact remains that we are adding one more to that list of bodies who, in certain circumstances, have a right to override not only town-planning schemes, but agreements which have been sanctioned by the Minister and by Parliament, and in respect to which large sums of money may have been paid. This list is already considerable, and, unless I am much mistaken, in these days of emergency it is likely to be added to. In those circumstances I think it is inevitable that some doubt should arise in the minds

1023
of town-planning authorities as to whether it is worth their while spending any further money on preservation at all.
I do not say that they would do so in any spirit of defiance, but simply because of the uncertainty; they do not really know where they are. I admit that this question of amenities must come as a secondary consideration in these days, but I think it would be a pity if all further work of this nature were to stop, particularly in view of the fact that so many of the schemes are now reaching their final form. I personally think that the attitude of the planning authorities will be very much affected, not so much by the precise wording of any safeguards as by the spirit in which those safeguards are administered. We were reminded the other day by the noble Lord, Lord Sandhurst, that there does exist a type of administrator who is always prepared to listen to reason but only after he has made up his mind. If the system of consultation is to be decision first and consultation afterwards, I am not very sanguine about the future of amenity preservation in this country, but if there is to be co-operation with the town-planning committees from the first instance about these proposals I shall feel more hopeful. I should like to stress what my noble friend Lord Phillimore has already said, that these town-planning authorities need not necessarily be synonymous with delay and obstruction. They do have, as other speakers have pointed out, special knowledge of such things as drainage and water supply, and their knowledge may expedite rather than delay operations. I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will use such influence as he has to see at any rate that method should be given a chance.
5.14 p.m.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, there has been a chorus of approval of this Bill, and I am just a little bit afraid that, arising out of so much approval and so many hopes, there is a danger here that we may have a disappointment if we do not clear our minds as to what this Bill does and what the possibilities are. I was very glad to hear the noble Earl who introduced the Bill say that, although the genesis of this Bill was primarily the idea of supplementing the places available for evacuation, nevertheless the purpose of the Bill was
1024
a much more limited one, and that is to provide holiday camps for school children. Now, if I may say so, I think that is the right line to take. Above all, what we must avoid is falling between two stools. These fifty camps, even for school children, are of course not enough for the amount of holidays that we all hope will ultimately be able to be had by school children. Still less are they of any use for evacuation from a practical point of view, and still less are they really of any use for the holidays-with-pay people to whom several noble Lords have referred.
I think it is essential that this matter should be proceeded with by stages and in a sensible way. It is no use trying to do too much at once. I, like other noble Lords, was perhaps disappointed at first at the small scope of this Bill, but on reflection I have come round to the point of view that it is right to have an experiment in the first instance. Moreover, I think that it is right to have this particular experiment of camps for school children, and I hope that there will not be an attempt to combine also with the experiment of holiday camps for school children holiday camps for workers who are going to get holidays with pay. The two matters are entirely different. The planning and the management of the two kinds of camp will be entirely different, and I think it is much wiser to start with an experiment of camps for school children. As I understand from the noble Earl that that is now primarily the purpose of the Corporation which is going to run these camps, I would like to emphasize to your Lordships the importance of design in these camps. A camp for school children is an absolutely different thing from a camp for workers who are going to have holidays with pay. If such camps are to come, they must come later. I would differ from my noble friend who said he hoped that two or three of the camps would be reserved for workers who have holidays with pay. I do not think that is worth doing. I would much rather have this experiment for the school children completed. Get your experience, and then proceed to the other matter later on.
Incidentally, I would like to ask the noble Earl one question. Is it intended that these camps should be occupied all the year round? I do not know whether a decision has been come to on that, but,

1025
personally, I would favour the construction of the camps being such that they would be capable of being occupied all the year round. Obviously that is going to have quite a big bearing on the construction, layout and so on. A very important point has been referred to by at least two noble Lords, and that is the question of the staffing of these camps. There I would venture to ask the noble Earl whether it should not be suggested to the Corporation that they should look ahead and train their staff. You are going to have fifty camps coming into being more or less at the same time, and other people are erecting camps on the same lines. Should not the Corporation look ahead and be thinking of training personnel for the staffing and managing of these camps, because, as the right reverend Prelate said, the staff and managers of these camps will make or mar the whole experiment. Therefore preparation should be made well in advance for training and seeing that the management is on the right lines.
More than one noble Lord has said that we are beginning on a very big move indeed. If it is successful it has endless possibilities, and it is essential that we should make no false step in any direction at the beginning. If I may say one word about the future, I would refer to what one or two noble Lords have said about town planning. Of course we are all horrified to see that this Bill calmly overrides the whole of the town-planning regulations. That is simply astounding, and more especially so when you consider that these fifty camps are far from being the only camps which are to come into being in the next few years. Everybody is thinking about camping. As with hiking, we are all becoming camp minded now. Such people as local authorities are setting up camps, trade unions are setting up camps, progressive employers are providing camps for their workpeople; and that sort of thing is going to increase.
Now just consider the position. The town-planning authorities have been working, as my noble friend said, devotedly for years making surveys, and all these camps are going to be put down without regard whatever to the town-planning work which has been done. It really is astounding. It suggests Alice in Wonderland that such a thing should be contemplated. Far from disregarding the town-planning people, I should have
1026
thought that a special survey ought to have been undertaken through the medium of town-planning machinery, to know from which parts of the country camps should be excluded or to which parts camps could be relegated, one or the other. An immense amount of useful information is already in possession of the town-planning authorities, but, as my noble friend Lord Phillimore said, it is to be deliberately and wantonly disregarded. That is a staggering proposition. Then there is the very important point about the location of the camps. I would like to know from the noble Earl—he said the Corporation has already selected twenty-five sites—what advice the Corporation will have as to the location of sites. I am glad to hear they are going to appoint a town planner, but they have already selected half the sites and it seems to me to be rather late to be appointing a gentleman who has special experience.
The development of this matter may be very great. It is parallel, in a way, to the development of the housing movement in the last few years. We have found, to our regret, that it is impossible to build modern housing for the lower-paid working classes without a subsidy. From the figures which my noble friend Viscount Astor gave, it is clearly impossible at the present time to supply camps on a commercial basis for the holiday needs of workers who are now to be given holidays with pay. I am afraid it will continue to be impossible. I do not think any subsidy will be needed. I think the position is much better on that score than the housing position, but I do think the only hope of supplying suitable camps for the workers will be on a nonprofit basis. Although a subsidy will not be required, equally there will not be room for sufficient commercial profit to attract commercial enterprise. We must look for the extension of this movement through the medium of this Corporation or an extension of the Corporation's work. The most important points, therefore, are the staffing, the management which has been referred to, the linking up of this movement with town planning, and, above all, looking ahead and preparing for future development. Do not let us make the mistake of trying to combine this with evacuation. It is quite a different matter. We should concentrate on getting experience with these particular camps for school

1027
children and prepare the way development which will follow large scale.
5.23 p.m.
LORD ARNOLD: My Lords, the welcome given to this Bill is not surprising, but I think that something should be done to temper it by emphasizing a little more than has yet been done the extremely limited scope of the Bill. The Bill is good as far as it goes. The important question arises, how far does it go, and the reply, of course, is "Not very far." Finance has just been mentioned, but let us try and get the perspective of expenditure which is provided under this Bill for this purpose of establishing camps. By Clause I there is authorised an expenditure of £1,200,000 I think that I am right in saying that of that sum £1,000,000 is for capital purposes. The country is now spending in all about £3,500,000 a day on its national expenditure. Therefore, all that this Bill does is to find—as I say, most of it is capital expenditure—something equal to about eight hours of the national expenditure. Is that really the best that can be done?
The noble Viscount, Lord Astor, referred to the number of children in elementary schools. He said there were 4,750,000. We may call it 5,000,000. It was 5,500,000 two or three years ago, but I expect the noble Viscount is right as to present figures. The noble Earl tells us that in all, perhaps, if things go well, about 300,000 children may have a fortnight's visit to these camps. That is a higher figure than was given in another place, when it was given as 200,000.
EARL DE LA WARR: I was taking into account existing camps.
LORD ARNOLD: That makes the matter clearer, but anyhow 300,000 out of 5,000,000 is only about one in fifteen—something like that. It is not a very impressive achievement. I do not think the Government are entitled to many congratulations over this Bill. It ought to be a much bigger measure. But the Government are always pleased with anything they do. They are very fond of presenting themselves with bouquets, and they seem to have an unlimited quantity of them—I will not say anything about their quality. The noble Earl was rather too
1028
enthusiastic about this Bill, and I will emphasize that later. The grant which he can give, as I understand it, is only 20 per cent., as against the average grant of, I think, about 50 per cent. I would very much like to know how that 20 per cent. has been arrived at. What are the processes of thought which have limited it to 20 per cent.? This expenditure on camps and on improving the conditions for outings for children and giving them some change is the best investment that the country can make. It is expenditure which will give a large return. There is no doubt about that. This is not a matter for argument or controversy, because statistics prove that after only a short stay in these camps the weight of children has increased by from two to five pounds. That is a very remarkable result, and therefore I cannot help thinking that this 20 per cent. is altogether too low. I hope that it will be increased.
Nothing has been said in this debate so far, I think, about diet. I do not know whether the noble Viscount, Lord Dawson, is going to speak—I always touch on anything which has to do with health with the greatest diffidence when he is present—but I think I am right in what I am about to say. He told us some years ago, and we all rejoiced to hear it, that the children of the poor are at any rate much better fed than they used to be. I will not put it higher than that. Yes, but I believe it is impossible to overestimate the health value to these children of having for a fortnight good regular meals if the diet is wisely and carefully chosen. If they can have them for a longer period than a fortnight so much the better. Important and valuable results will accrue particularly if those in charge of the camps arrange the diet—I speak with some experience—in accordance with the best medical information. Experience has shown that such a diet can be achieved at little more cost, and perhaps no more cost, than a different kind of diet which would not be nearly so beneficial.
There has been a great deal of talk this afternoon about this being an experiment. The noble Earl who introduced the Bill said it was an experiment and the noble Lord who spoke last referred to it as an experiment. Well, in the sense that it is on a larger scale than anything that has yet been done it may be an experiment, but as a matter of fact a great

1029
deal of pioneer work has been done in this country in the matter of providing camps and giving facilities for children to go with their teachers and receive instruction in camp. I hesitate to make a personal reference, but actually it is sixteen years since in conjunction with the late Mr. Frank Briant, M.P., I established a camp near the Kentish coast. In the intervening years thousands of visits have been paid to that camp by children with their school teachers. The local authorities have been most helpful. There has been no obstruction there. The camp has been used in that way during term time, but in holiday time, though it has been used to some extent for children, it has been used still more for youths, and indeed, rather later on, we tried the experiment, and it was successful, of having definite families there for holidays—a matter which has been referred to in the course of the discussion. Therefore this hope which has been expressed, that the camps might be used at any rate for youths, is one which ought to materialise, because it is a perfectly practical proposition. It has been done.
I should like in this connection to make a suggestion which I do not think has yet been made in any of these debates: that at any rate one or two of the camps should be set aside in the holiday period, not for youths, but for older girls and young women to go to for holidays, because they need a holiday just as much as the young men do. In these days, when there is plenty of efficient voluntary help from ladies and women workers, there would be no difficulty in getting such a camp properly managed and ordered. That suggestion should be taken into careful consideration.
I quite realise that there is a difficulty, if the camps are constructed purely on the dormitory system, in their being used for families during the holidays. Nevertheless, I do not believe that that difficulty is insuperable. At any rate I feet that it could be overcome to some extent if certain adjustments were made in the original planning of the camp. I am not speaking of the whole of the camp, because it is perfectly possible during the holiday season—I have done it myself, I have seen it for years—to have in the same camp children, youths and families, and they all mix up very well together. A portion of the accommodation might be so constructed that it
1030
could be used by families during a holiday.
A good deal of reference has been made in the debate to holidays with pay, and to the great demand which there will be for holidays. I should like to say this to the noble Lord who spoke last. It must be remembered that the workers will for the most part—it is true that holidays will have to be spread over to some extent, but for the most part—want to have their holidays in about two months of the year, from about the middle of July to the middle of September, because then the children are free. If this is so, it is not really a business proposition to construct camps which are only going to be used for two months in the year. Therefore it is very desirable to consider most carefully the use of parts of these camps for this purpose. The camps are there, and they are not needed for the school journeys and so forth at this part of the year. Speaking from experience, I think this is a matter which is capable of adjustment and should be very carefully considered. The figures of the cost of family holidays have been given to-day, and I am satisfied that they are greatly above what is actually necessary. I am certain from my own experience that the holidays can be provided for very much less, especially if these camps can be used. There is no question about it: the real cost is nothing like 45s. a week; it is far below that.
I should like to ask the noble Earl a question here, because it is very important. This Bill is widely drawn, as I understand it, and I hope it is going to be widely and reasonably interpreted. But is it the case that the Minister of Health has already indicated to the Camps Corporation that these camps should only be used for school children? I should like to know if that is so, whether that definite instruction has been given. It was said in another place that it had, and I was very much surprised, because it is a serious matter and I do not see any sufficient reason for such a restricted instruction as that. If it is so, why has it been done, and is it too late to alter it? Certainly, as far as I understand it, there is nothing in the Bill which would require that, and it seems to me a very unfortunate circumstance, to use no stronger word, if a very limited instruction of that kind has already been given. I urge that the

1031
matter should at any rate be left open until experience has shown—as it will show—that these camps can be used, not only for school children but also in the ways of which I have spoken. The next great social work of the future is to provide facilities and accommodation for holidays for working-class families. The scope is practically unlimited, and I do not think it is using any language of exaggeration to say that it would really be a national disaster if even the possibility of using some part of these camps for families were ruled out from the start.
I should like, in conclusion, to say something about the requisites of a good camp site, in support of what was so well said, if I may say so, by the right reverend Prelate. To begin with, I entirely agree with his point about the vital necessity of having the ground as far as possible a dry one, one which dries well and quickly, especially the playing-fields; otherwise, obviously, all kinds of difficulties arise. These may seem to be trifling points, but as a matter of fact they are of supreme importance and might make the whole difference between the failure and success of a camp. The provision is clearly all the more necessary because of the appalling climate under which we have to live in this country. Another thing which I think is most important is that the camp should be moderately near a fair-sized town and shopping centre, so that supplies and so forth can be delivered without any great difficulty. Thirdly, if possible, bathing facilities of one kind or another should be not far away. No doubt the camps themselves will have their own baths and so on, but bathing facilities are very important. Therefore, if it can be done, it is of course best to have the camp not far from the sea, not more than a mile away from the sea; probably about half a mile is the best. These camps are also to be available for evacuation purposes, and that means, unfortunately, that a good deal of the coast is removed from the area where camps will be put; but a good deal remains, and, if possible, camps should be placed near the sea. Of course, for people from some of the larger inland towns, those in the Midlands, there is a difficulty in getting to the sea. Failing
1032
that, if possible, there should be facilities for fresh-water bathing.
Another point which has not been made, and which I think is very important, is that I am sure it is a mistake to have a camp in too isolated a position, too far removed from what I may call the haunts of man. After all, it is not only the children who go to camps, but those in charge of the children, and that means a good many. Each camp requires a large staff, and if these children and their teachers and those in charge are dumped down in some remote spot in the country—again bearing in mind the unspeakable climate in which we live—the effect may be psychologically very depressing. I remember hearing of a lady who, with infinite trouble, had organised a holiday for some young women from a large town. There they were in a rural retreat; it happened to be a beautiful summer evening, and she was expatiating on the beauties of the countryside and trying to interest the girls in them. In the middle of what she was saying, one of them was heard to remark to her companion: "There'll be a fight going on in our street now!" You have to consider the psychology of the people. Most of them come from the big towns, and they do not want to be isolated and too far removed from the sights and scenes of man.
I have nearly finished, but I do want to emphasize that if a camp is to be a success—and I think the right reverend Prelate or some noble Lord spoke of this—various recreations and treats will have to be organised. They are essential, and that is one reason why the camps should not be put right away in the country, because it would make it more difficult for these things to be organised. My final word is this, and I express this as strongly as I can, and as a well-wisher of the general scheme: I do hope that this scheme or experiment, call it whatever you will, is not going to be smothered with red tape and official regulations. If it is going to succeed it will require a certain amount of voluntary help and assistance, which I know will be gladly given, but I do know that in certain social work which has been helped by the Government some voluntary helpers have had the spirit crushed out of them, and indeed almost broken, by red tape and regulations. The capacity of the official mind for regulations and restrictions seems to be infinite, and I hope very

1033
much that the Minister of Education, and the Minister of Health, will take care that this scheme is carried out in a reasonable spirit, and with plenty of common sense.
5.43 p.m.
VISCOUNT DAWSON OF PENN: My Lords, the interesting speech of the noble Lord, Lord Arnold, gives me cause for some concern, for I would put it to your Lordships that there is a real danger that this admirable Bill may come to nought if it strives to do too much. If we consider the extent, length and breadth of this Bill we must admit that the actual results produced by it will be small. Surely its justification is that it is a social experiment. It is going to teach us a great deal of what we at present do not know. It is going to do something in legislation which is constantly done in the fields of biological science, where, before we make a big mass venture, we put the thing through a trial. To my mind the worth of this Bill is that it is a social experiment. Nothing would imperil its success more than by going outside a limited ambit, and I submit to your Lordships that the right problem to commence with is the problem of youth. They have the first claim upon our attention. Is it not true, especially in the times in which we live, that more than ever before the future of this country will depend upon the quality of its youth?—and youth is not finding it too easy to grow up aright amidst the conflicts, doubts and uncertainties of this present world.
I take it that there seldom has been a time when youth has had more difficulties to face, and if for one moment I may look at it from a national point of view, it cannot be enforced too often that as we no longer are dependent upon methods of bringing the fittest to the top by killing off the weaklings, surely it becomes necessary for us, by acts of constructive statesmanship, to put before ourselves as the first necessity, the task of building for fitness. That is becoming increasingly important, because every year the future of this country depends more upon the quality of its people. Not only are the demands of the future likely to be greater than those of the past, but there may come a time when there will be fewer people in the country, and we shall have reached the time when the birth-rate is so low that there will be more places in the schools than there are children to fill them—when the reproduction rate is
1034
falling to such an extent that one hundred women during their child-bearing age produce only seventy-five girl babies—future mothers—and therefore are not replacing themselves. This is a state of affairs to which attention needs to be paid, but for the purposes of this Bill it means that we more and more will be dependent upon quality. Therefore all our attention in the matter of priority should surely be upon youth.
This venture of the Government's is no larger than is required for dealing with and the handling of youth, in order to construct and build up in them strength of body, strength of mind, and strength of character. I do not suppose any social workers, and least of all that part of the Government which is concerned with health legislation, would dispute that there are many problems which they do not yet see their way through. But if these camps are used aright they will do untold good. Mistakes undoubtedly will be made, but these mistakes will be rectified, and on the results of experience gained we shall be able to take big mass steps forward, as undoubtedly we shall have to do. It is quite true, as has been said, that if one looks now at the children rushing forth from our elementary schools at the end of the morning's school, it is a sight which does please one. There is very great improvement in their health and clothing, and they are getting a better chance. On the other hand, going to any assembly of youth, anywhere and of almost any class, one is compelled time after time to notice the large proportion who show defects of frame which are quite avoidable by proper education and care. I was yesterday present at a presentation of degrees, and saw a large number of youths taking their first degree in the University; and the number of times that I said to myself, "Look at the contrast between what is and what might be." There are certain things that cannot be cured; there are certain defects in people which are inborn; but the more you go about the more is forced on you the constant contrast between what is and what might be under proper conditions of care, education and outdoor surroundings.
May I give two advantages which would follow from these camps as far as children are concerned? Even a fortnight for children in these camps is an excellent thing. Many of them have hardly ever seen grass or trees for any length of time.

1035
They come there and in that fortnight get an entirely new view of life. If that is done for large numbers of children that will be one purpose of these camps. But there is another. What about open-air schools? In open-air schools children have fewer colds in the winter than the children in indoor schools. I have never seen any harm come to children from open-air schools. If the children are kept warm they catch fewer colds than other people, and they grow up more healthy. I have no hesitation whatever in saying that these camps could be used all the year round, whatever the weather, if they were properly built, and with great advantage to the inmates.
I referred just now to the painful contrast of which one is often conscious when one sees a mass of youth and one says: "Look at the difference between what is and what might be." Now these camps are going to alter that, and that is another way in which this experiment is so good. You can fill a camp with children of suitable age for a period of three or four months, if it is properly constructed for that purpose. They can be educated during that time; they can be put on proper diet; they can be given means of recreation, and they can learn a certain amount of self-government; and already we have knowledge which tells us that the difference in those children at the end of that three months compared with the beginning is somewhat startling. Evidence in support of that can be found in many directions. For instance, in the experiment at Aldershot. I have had the pleasure of witnessing the benefit obtained by those sub-fit youths. They are not well enough or strong enough or big enough to be taken as recruits, but they are put into camps and at the end of two or three months the change is marvellous. There is such encouragement from these experiments already made as to give us substantial hopes that these camps will be a means of building up a fit race. I do not mean only fit in body, but fit citizens. For that reason I would urge, following my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh, that this Bill should be regarded as an experiment, and that the experiment should be a limited one: it should be limited to children. That is as much as you can take in for the moment, and by that means you will lay the foundations
1036
for building up a fitter race, and a better quality race, than we at present possess.
5.55 p.m.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, like every speaker this evening, I welcome this Bill, and, like the noble Viscount who has just spoken, I hope that the Government will find it possible to keep these camps open all the year round. I am sure that would have very good results. There is just one point to which I would like to call attention, which was brought to my notice by the National Association for Permanent Holiday Camps. That body consists of well over 100 members, and does a great deal to improve the standard of holiday camps, so that it can be said that people who go to those camps have a better time than they would otherwise. It is true therefore that this body has done for several years some pioneering down a road which only now His Majesty's Government are following. For that reason I think this point with which they are concerned should be considered by the Government. It is this, that it costs at least as much to maintain a private camp as a Government camp of equal size; therefore your Lordships will see that Government camps are going to have a very great advantage over private camps if they compete with them in any way.
This point was called attention to, very properly I think, in another place, but the Amendment was withdrawn on an undertaking from the Minister in charge that it was not the intention of the Government to let these Government camps compete with private camps. Of course, one is very glad to hear that that is so, but my experience is that it is always much better to get an assurance like that into a Bill than to have a verbal promise from a Minister, if only because that Minister will not be there permanently. So I would very much like the noble Earl who will shortly reply for the Government to say a word about this, and, if he cannot put his assurance into the Bill, that he will give us some explanation as to why he cannot. What I would really like to see him put into the Bill is some assurance that not only will the Government camps not compete with private ones, but that as far as possible the two will work together, thus bringing together private enterprise and State enterprise.
5.58 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, before the noble Earl replies to the discussion on this matter, I should like in very few words to support the criticisms made by the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester respecting the size of the grant which is to be made. I am aware of all the difficulties, and I have no sort of right now to speak for any local authority, but I am sure that the local authorities concerned will be very cautious in their use of the scheme unless the grant is increased. The local authority has a difficult task to perform. The ratepayer has a disagreeable way of hitting back when he thinks his pocket is being injured, and if that gets hold of the people's minds these camps may not be used at all, or may not be used to the extent that they should. I am quite aware that the noble Earl in this matter has to face an unemotional Treasury, and he may not be able to get from them all that he himself might wish, but I do suggest that this is important. This camp movement is one of liberation, and it may bring returns to us of unexpected magnitude and value. It would be a pity if, at the beginning of the experiment, the initial efforts were stopped, for in this case parsimony might really prevent future growth. I say nothing about the scheme being limited to 200,000. That seems to be a number that fascinates the mind of the Government at the present time, but I hope in this matter, if not in others, the idea will grow and the number increase.
6.1 p.m.
EARL DE LA WARR: My Lords, first of all may I thank your Lordships for the very warm welcome you have been good enough to give to the Bill? Many points have been raised, and it is only right that I should try to deal with a certain number of them. Others have been rather in the nature of suggestions than of questions, and I hope your Lordships will forgive me if I do not deal with them, but I give a definite undertaking that I shall put them before my noble friend Lord Portal as suggestions. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, said he wished the Camps Corporation had been responsible to the Board of Education rather than to the Ministry of Health; but the major points dealt with in the Bill have all to do with the Ministry of Health, and your Lordships need have no fear of
1038
any lack of co-operation between the Departments. Your Lordships may have noticed that Sir Edward Howarth, late Deputy Secretary of the Board of Education, is to be Managing Director of the Corporation, and no one is more capable of keeping the Corporation in touch with the educational world.
The noble Lord, Lord Arnold, made, if I may say so, a number of most useful suggestions based on long and practical experience. I would like to tell him particularly that I shall put the suggestions before those who are responsible for the running of the camps. Many of your Lordships have brought up the question of the discipline and organisation of the camps—the noble Lord, Lord Eltisley, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester, and also the noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh. Lord Balfour suggested we should train a body of managers; that is certainly an interesting proposal which needs consideration. On this general question of discipline I would point out that these children will be going under the care of their teachers or, if it is a matter of clubs and not schools, under the charge of their club leaders. Your Lordships can therefore take it that they will be under very careful control.
Many noble Lords have raised what I myself laid some emphasis on, and that is the most important question of the effect of these camps on the life and amenities of the countryside. I would like to emphasize to noble Lords the care which my right honourable friend the Minister of Health intends to take with regard to these matters. It is perfectly true that in subsection (2) of Clause 3 he does cut out the normal procedure under the Town and Country Planning Act, but I hope your Lordships will agree that in subsection (3) he really brings back a good deal of what my noble friend Lord Gage referred to as the spirit of co-operation between the Government and these authorities. Your Lordships will notice that in every case copies of the plans and specifications have to be forwarded to the responsible authorities, and these authorities will have power to make representations to the Minister. As under the Town and Country Planning Act the ultimate arbiter in case of appeals is the Minister of Health, and as in fact under this subsection (3) the ultimate arbiter is the Minister of Health, he is really

1039
doing very little more than short-circuiting formalities.
In addition to that, I have already mentioned the composition of the Corporation. I do not think I mentioned that we had already asked Mr. Percy Thomas, who is President of the Royal Institute of British Architects, to be a member of that body, but I did mention that we have asked another gentleman, most specifically connected with town and country planning, and I referred, in addition, to the advice that the Corporation hope to get on this matter from Mr. Tait. I hope therefore your Lordships will realise that this is a matter we take very seriously, and there should be no fear whatsover that we are going to neglect it. One other point was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Balfour, and that was the question of whether there should not be a survey of all the sites available in the whole country. That is a proposal I should certainly like to lay before my right honourable friend the Minister of Health, because even if we cannot do it with this first batch of camps, I see no reason whatsoever why something along that line should not be carried out if there is to be any future development in this direction.
Finally, might I stress to your Lordships that one of the main reasons why I, personally, was so very keen on proceeding along the line of having a single Camps Corporation was that the work should be carried out on an orderly basis? An alternative way would have been for the Government to make grants to individual bodies and individual local authorities. In many ways there was a great deal to be said for that method, but it would have meant there would have been no orderly development along the very lines on which noble Lords have been been speaking to-day. The fact that we are doing this centrally through a Camps Corporation will, I hope, be taken by noble Lords as showing that we intend to carry out this development on a proper and carefully-planned basis. Noble Lords have referred to the question of using these camps for the dual purpose of dealing with children and with the problem of holidays with pay. I am very glad to feel that the authority of the noble Viscount, Lord Dawson, is behind us in saying that we should really tackle
1040
first problems first. I feel all the more confident that I am not taking up a mere departmental line in saying that I, personally, am pleased that we are dealing with the children first. That does not mean to say that there is not this other problem of holidays with pay that has got to be faced, but we are only discussing fifty camps dealing with a comparatively limited number of children, and I feel sure we are right to concentrate our efforts.
The noble Lord, Lord Balfour of Burleigh, asked how long these camps would be used during the year, and the noble Viscount, Lord Dawson of Penn, made the point that he would like to see them used for twelve months. It seems to me that is one of the things in regard to which we have to experiment. During the debate we had two or three months ago, I think I gave your Lordships an indication that we were making our estimates on the basis of five months user of the camps. Since then we have extended our ideas, and I think we should be able to use them for a longer period. There is nothing to prevent us, as we proceed, finding that we can use them for most of the year, but whether parents would desire to have their children go to the country in mid-winter is a matter which we need not, I think, really consider. But this is certain, that the camps will be definitely built for winter use. They will be heated, as indeed they must be, because if they have to be used for the purpose of evacuation they would probably have to be used in mid-winter.
I think one of your Lordships asked about the use of country houses. Actually out of the list of twenty-five that I gave of provisional sites that have been approved only two include country houses. It has been found that the cost of conversion of country houses is too heavy. That reminds me of something that I have made a note of with regard to the question of planning. I think the noble Lord, Lord Phillimore, misunderstood me when I said that twenty-five sites have been provisionally approved. He said that the local authorities had heard nothing about them. The reason why local authorities have not yet been consulted with regard to these provisional sites is that they could not be consulted by a body that at present is not in existence. Your Lordships will realise that the Camps Corporation,

1041
although it has been functioning to some extent, will not have a corporate existence until this Bill is passed.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Does that mean in future, when this body is a corporate body, that they will consult the local authorities in advance?
EARL DE LA WARR: Definitely; and it means also, with regard to the sites that have been surveyed as a preliminary, that there will naturally be a proper form of consultation.
LORD PHILLIMORE: Will that formal consultation, which will naturally come, refer to the sites themselves?—because that is a point at issue.
EARL DE LA WARR: Oh yes, I think that is made clear, surely.
LORD PHILLIMORE: No.
EARL DE LA WARR: Well, that is a point in regard to which I would like to give an answer to the noble Lord on a future occasion One noble Lord raised a point about concealment. I am not sure that the point is really of very great importance. There will only be eight or nine not very large hutments, and I do not think, whether concealed or not concealed, they are going to be much of a target. But that, I know, is a point which is in the minds of the Corporation, and one that is being considered.
Finally, may I particularly thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester for a point that he made, which seemed to me to be of very great importance He said that what we are doing here might do something to increase the understanding between town and country. I think that touches upon one of the real tragedies of the present time. One sometimes hears landlords complaining of the behaviour of people in the country, and it is a tragedy that so many people should have so little knowledge of the country that, when they get there, they are not always able to treat the country with that respect that I think they would have for it if they knew more about it. I was told the other day, by one who looks after a club in London, that when he took a small group of boys to the country and showed one of his younger boys a field of potatoes, the boy would not believe that potatoes grew in fields.
1042
He said potatoes did not come from fields, they came from shops. We smile at that story, but I think behind it lies a deep and terrible tragedy, and one to the solution of which I hope this Bill will at least make some small contribution.
Then a number of your Lordships raised the question of the amount of grant. It does seem, as one noble Lord suggested, perhaps rather an anomalous position that it should be 50 per cent. in Scotland and 20 per cent. in England, but as a matter of fact it is not quite so unreasonable as it may seem. The reason why Scotland is able to pay 50 per cent. is that they get a block grant amounting to 11–80ths of whatever they spend, they can allot their block grant as they like, and they choose to use a certain amount of it in giving a higher grant for camps. In England our whole grant formula is a very complicated one, which I am only just begining to grasp myself after being at the Board of Education for six months, and I shall not venture to trouble your Lordships with it. But everything that comes outside that grant has hitherto been 20 per cent., with one or two small exceptions. Many of your Lordships have raised this point, and it is a matter that I am certainly prepared to bear in mind. I do not think that your Lordships would expect me to say more at the present moment. I thank your Lordships for the way you have received the Bill and I ask you now to give it a Second Reading.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

LIMITATION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM): My Lords, I move that the Commons Amendments to this Bill be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 19.]
Clause 7, page 5, line 43, after ("entitled") insert ("in possession").
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the first is a drafting Amendment, and I move that we agree with it.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 18, page 10, line 39, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) The right to receive any principal Sum of money secured by a mortgage or other charge and the right to foreclose on the property subject to the mortgage or charge shall not be deemed to accrue so long as that property comprises any future interest or any life insurance policy which has not matured or been determined.")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment. It requires a little explanation. Subsection (3) of Clause 18, when it left this House, was defective in that it only actually covered the case where the mortgage was on a single future interest. In a case where the mortgage comprises present interests as well, or two or more future interests which will fall in at different dates, it was not clear what the effect of subsection (3) of Clause 18 would be. Accordingly the present Amendment from the other place has this effect, that it will secure that the operation of the Statute is postponed until the last future interest falls into possession or, where the property comprises a life insurance policy or policies, the date when the last policy matures or is determined. With that explanation I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 11, line 28, at end insert:
("(b) where the property subject to the mortgage or charge comprises and, future interest or life insurance policy and it is a term of the mortgage or charge that arrears of interest shall be treated as part of the principal sum of money secured by the mortgage or charge, interest shall not be deemed to become due before the right to receive the principal sum of money has accrued or is deemed to have accrued.")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this Amendment also is one that requires some explanation. The object of the Amendment is to secure that where there is a mortgage on future interests
1044
and the mortgage deed contains, as is not at all uncommon, a capitalisation clause according to which the interest is capitalised until the principal becomes due, the Statute ought not to run, and is designed according to the Amendment not to run, as respects claims for interest until it begins to run as regards the principal debt. It would obviously be a considerable hardship to both parties if the mortgagee were compelled to bring actions in respect of claims for interest in order to preserve his rights at a time when the actions might be profitless. That is the matter with which this Amendment is concerned—to prevent that hardship. I beg to move that the Amendment be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 23, page 14, line 36, after ("and,") insert ("either receives any sum in respect of the principal or interest of the mortgage debt or")
Clause 23, page 14, line 40, after the second ("the,") insert ("payment or").
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the Amendments to this clause are to remedy a somewhat curious omission in the Bill as it left your Lordships' House. The object of the Amendments is to secure that where a mortgagee is in possession of mortgaged land and the Statute is running in his favour by virtue of Clause 12, any payment by the mortgagor, whether in respect of principal or interest, shall be treated as starting the Statute running afresh. As the clause was drafted originally, it was doubtful whether the receipt of such a payment would amount to an acknowledgment of the mortgagor's title or equity of redemption, and even if it were an acknowledgment there might be cases where there was no receipt in writing to fulfil the requirements of Clause 24 (1). It is clear, I think, that if a mortgagee receives a payment he ought to be treated as acknowledging the rights of the mortgagor to redeem the mortgage, being rights which are obviously appropriate to the case of payment to the same extent as they are appropriate in the case of acknowledgment. I beg to move that these two Amendments be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 27, page 18, line 9, leave out ("agreement")
Clause 27, page 18, line 10, after ("arbitrator") insert ("or to agree to the appointment of an arbitrator")
Clause 27, page 18, line 42, at end insert ("and subsections (3) and (4) thereof shall have effect, in relation to an arbitration under an Act, as if for the references to the arbitration agreement there were substituted references to such of the provisions of the Act or of any order, scheme, rules,
1046
regulations, or by-laws made thereunder as relate to the arbitration")
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, there are three Amendments on the Paper to Clause 27 which can be taken together. They are all mere drafting Amendments and I beg to move that they be agreed to.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past six o'clock.