Lords Sitting of 22 March 1939

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.
The Lord Roborough—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

EXETER EXTENSION BILL.
Read 2a.
METHODIST CHURCH BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BLACKBURN) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (HASTINGS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEYTON) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LUTON EXTENSION) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
KIRKCALDY CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).

GAS, ELECTRICITY AND WATER UNDERTAKINGS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I think the reason for the Motion which stands in my name requires that a little explanation should be made. In the model clauses for gas Bills there is one which provides for the fixation of dividends at a certain maximum sum. If the profits of the statutory company exceed this sum they are used to reduce the price of gas to the consumer. That model clause is No. 20 in the printed volume of model clauses. There are analogous clauses—not the same, but based on the same idea—to be found dealing with electricity and water. Some time ago it was brought to my notice that our model clauses were not in accordance altogether with modern conditions, and that it might be possible in a perfectly proper and legal manner to render the provisions which were inserted in Bills, and therefore the intentions of Parliament, of no avail.
I do not think I need weary your Lordships with a long explanation of the matter and the reasons for which I am advised these clauses may have become obsolete, but as your Lordships are well aware one of my duties is to ensure that the intention of your Lordships is carried out by the provisions inserted in Private Bills by the House and approved by the House in Special Orders. When I learned that it was possible that our clauses were perhaps unsatisfactory for that purpose, I felt bound to take the matter up, because obviously it would be impossible for me to recommend to your Lordships clauses in Private Bills which I was not certain were effective. Of course, it would have been possible for me to alter the clauses on my own authority and to submit them for the consideration of your Lordships, or it might have been possible the next time the matter came up for consideration and it was sought to include one of the clauses in a Bill, for me to have turned it into an opposed clause under Standing Order No. 110 and to have asked a Select Committee of your Lordships' House to examine it. But I did not think either of these courses seemed particularly satisfactory, and so I sought the advice of the various departments concerned, and the proposal which I am submitting to your Lordships this afternoon is
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the result of my consultation with the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Transport and the Electricity Commissioners.
So, with the concurrence of His Majesty's Government, I venture to ask your Lordships to look into the matter and appoint a Committee to report to the House what action, if any, should be taken. To me the matter seems one entirely of drafting and of making sure that the model clauses inserted in Private Bills and Special Orders carry out the intention of your Lordships and of Parliament, but it has been represented to me that possibly wider issues might be raised. Therefore, it seems to me that we should appoint a strong and perhaps rather larger Committee than usual to go into the matter. It also seems to me that as this is a legal and drafting matter we should secure the services of a noble and learned Lord to take the Chair. I have good reason to believe that the noble and learned Viscount who recently occupied the Woolsack, Lord Sankey, would be willing to take the Chair. I therefore propose to submit his name and the names of eight other noble Lords in due course. I beg to move.
Moved, That a Select Committee be appointed to consider in the case of gas, electricity and water undertakings operating under enactments containing provisions regulating the raising of capital, the borrowing of money, the charges to be made or the relation between dividends and prices charged, whether the control of, or by such undertakings by, or of another body (statutory or otherwise) can impair the efficacy of such provisions; and whether, in the case of Bills and Orders relating to any of such undertakings and promoted for the purpose inter alia of obtaining or increasing capital or borrowing powers, provisions should be made for the control of the exercise of such powers as to terms or form; and to report what, if any, modifications or additions to the provisions usually inserted in Local Acts and Orders should be made with a view to their incorporation in future Bills and Orders relating to gas, electricity and water undertakings.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
LORD HUTCHISON OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I should like to ask one question. Was this Committee asked for by any of the Government Departments, or is it purely a domestic matter for your Lordships' House?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I thought I had made that clear. When my advisers brought to my notice that our clauses might not be effective and were obsolete, I went into the matter and after I had ascertained that they had advised me correctly—or so it appeared to me—I sought the advice of the Government Departments as to what action should be taken. The result is the Motion that I now bring before your Lordships.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
House adjourned during pleasure, and resumed by the LORD CHANCELLOR.

MATERNITY SERVICES IN DUMFRIESSHIRE AND GALLOWAY.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD THE EARL OF MANSFIELD rose to ask His Majesty's Government if they are aware of the inadequacy of the hospital maternity services in Dumfriesshire and Galloway, due largely to the persistent refusal of the local authorities to co-operate with the directors of Dumfries and Galloway Royal Infirmary in providing the accommodation and facilities required; and to move for Papers.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the subject which I am bringing before your Lordships this afternoon is of local, rather than national importance, but at the same time it is so important to a large area of the South-West of Scotland, containing a considerable population, that I do not think an apology is needed for bringing it forward, particularly as our programme to-day is considerably lighter than has been the case for some time past. In short, the position is that over the area of country comprising the County of Dumfries, the Stewardry of Kirkcudbright, and the County of Wigtown, which last two constitute the old province of Galloway, there are most inadequate hospital maternity services. The population of this area is approximately 140,000 persons, but as the western portion of the County of Wigtown is more easily served from the adjacent County of Ayr, one may say that the number of people directly affected is probably in the neighbourhood of 120,000.
This area is served for hospital purposes by the old established Dumfries and Galloway Royal Infirmary, which, like most
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infirmaries, has been found for some time to be entirely inadequate in size for the calls made upon it, so much so that recently the waiting list of patients has been on an average no less than 140. It was the desire of the directors—and for this purpose they collected a considerable sum of money—to make a large extension and that this extension should include a proper hospital maternity ward. That has been entirely lacking up to the present time. The infirmary has been treating maternity cases but that has been done under protest. The matter was brought to a head some little time ago by the very distinguished consulting gynaecologist of the Infirmary, Professor Cameron, who gave it in writing as his considered opinion that the Infirmary should refuse to take in any further maternity cases until it had better provision for looking after them, in view of the great risks involved owing to there being no proper facilities for that purpose. This the directors have been unwilling to do, largely because up to the present time no fatalities have been incurred in the course of treating such cases. That has been due, however, not only to the skill of those who have been looking after those cases, but also to some extent to good fortune, because the case has been that if any one of a number of complications sets in, the Infirmary has not had the technical apparatus and premises wherewith to treat it.
When this extension was first proposed something over two years ago, the directors of the Infirmary requested each of four local authorities concerned—that is, the three county councils and the Town Council of the Burgh of Dumfries, which, having over 20,000 of population, is for Scottish local government purposes regarded as a large burgh—to bring forward some scheme which should embody their requirements, so that the directors should be able to make their proposed hospital wing of such a character that it would be able to serve all the maternity cases from their own area which were in need of hospital attention. Nevertheless, the four authorities concerned have been completely oblivious of their duty to those who put them into office, and no one of them has brought forward any proposal worthy of the name. Two of them suggested that some two beds should be provided for each of those two authorities,

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but brought forward no proper scheme which the directors could consider in any way adequate.
As I have explained to your Lordships, it is impossible for the Infirmary to do its duty properly unless it has this extension built, and that at a very early date, in view of there being no other place where such treatment could be given. But the directors now find themselves on the horns of a dilemma. Owing to the refusal of the four local authorities to co-operate, a refusal which has not been in so many words but rather in their lack of action, they find themselves in the position that either they must continue to put up with their very long waiting-list, which they are most loth to do, or else they must proceed to draw up a scheme for the enlargement of the premises without knowing what maternity services they would really be called upon to render. That was why I sent the whole of the information in my possession about it to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. I hope that the noble Marquess, who I presume will reply, will be able to make some statement of what the Scottish Office think the position is and what they consider should be done. I do not wish to bring forward any particular suggestion myself. All I do wish is that sufficient publicity shall be focused upon this point and sufficient pressure put on these local authorities by the Scottish Office to ensure that something may be done in the near future which will provide, for this very considerable local population, hospital maternity facilities which are at the present time completely lacking and which in the estimate of everyone in those areas are very badly needed indeed. I beg to move for Papers.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, I can quite appreciate the disappointment which has been experienced by the noble Earl at the protraction of the negotiations which have, as a matter of fact, been taking place between the local authorities in the area concerned and the governing body of the Royal Dumfries Infirmary. On the other hand, there is perhaps something to be said for the local authorities. As I understand it the position is this. When some four years ago it became known to the Department of Health in Scotland that the governing
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body of the Infirmary were contemplating making considerable extensions, they suggested to the local authorities that they should get into touch with the governing body with a view to providing the maternity services which it is an obligation of the local authorities to provide in collaboration with them: that, in other words, instead of establishing a separate maternity unit of their own, they should join with the governing body of the Royal Infirmary and provide a certain number of beds at their expense at the Infirmary. I understand that as a result of investigations the local authorities came to the conclusion that the additional number of beds which they themselves would require would be something like seventy, of which forty would be maternity beds.
The question arose how this extension was to be financed. It was quite obvious that the local authorities would be called upon to invest considerable sums of the ratepayers money to meet their part of the bargain. In fact, I understand that the cost to the local authority would be something like £60,000. Then, over and above the capital outlay, there would of course be the repairing cost and maintenance. It was perhaps not unnatural, particularly since these are Scottish bodies, that they wanted to know, before they decided to invest this money in this particular institution, what the financial condition of the institution was. I gather that as a matter of fact the financial circumstances of the Infirmary are not too good. There is an annually recurring deficit, and I understand that of the total amount of capital which the Infirmary itself proposes to raise for its part of the extension, a total of £77,000, only some £37,000 has so far been raised, leaving still a further sum of approximately £40,000 to be found.
Nevertheless my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland is of the opinion that it would be to the advantage of all parties if a satisfactory agreement could be reached between the local authorities and the governing body. Although, as the noble Earl himself will no doubt realise, the responsibility is a direct responsibility of the local authorities and not of my right honourable friend, he is prepared to place his services at the disposal of both parties if they think that his good offices will be of use

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to them. The noble Earl suggested that my right honourable friend should bring pressure to bear upon the local authorities. I do not know whether the noble Earl will regard my offer on my right honourable friend's behalf to place his services at the disposal of the different parties as sufficient to meet the case, but I rather hope that that may be so. At any rate, I shall be very glad to convey to my right honourable friend the very strong feeling which the noble Earl very naturally has upon these questions.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELD: My Lords, I must thank the noble Marquess very much for his reply, which on the whole I regard as quite satisfactory, because I think it is obvious that if the Secretary of State for Scotland is willing to use his good offices, it will be very difficult indeed for any local authority or body connected with the management of the Infirmary to refuse to co-operate with him. In regard to the question of the Infirmary's finances the noble Marquess quite correctly stated that there was an annual deficit, but I would much like to be informed how many infirmaries throughout Great Britain do not have a deficit, and certainly others with which I am acquainted have a much larger one. Also this Infirmary has started a new contributory scheme which is bringing in several thousand pounds a year and so far as my experience goes the finances of this hospital are decidedly better than most of those in this country. The whole position has been that the local authorities have proved themselves unwilling to bring forward any scheme of any kind and that is why it has been necessary for me to bring forward this Motion to-day.
I may say that an immediate result of this Motion appearing on the Order Paper has been that three of the county and town clerks concerned have met and discussed this matter from about 5.30 p.m. until the early hours of the morning, a sign of activity which had not been obvious at any period during negotiations
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in the past. I think therefore that my bringing forward this Motion has had the desired effect. I thank the noble Marquess very much for his reply—I wish to associate the Secretary of State for Scotland also in my thanks—and I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, with-withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if I forecast the business for the next few days. I think it is necessary that we should have a purely formal meeting of the House on Friday next at a quarter past four, when we propose to have First Readings of the Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill, the Czecho-Slovakia (Restrictions on Banking Accounts, etc.) Bill and the China (Currency Stabilisation) Bill. Then we propose that the House should meet again on Monday and take the Czecho-Slovakia (Restrictions on Banking Accounts, etc.) Bill through all its stages. After that there will be a Royal Commission to pass it into law forthwith. I understand that it is necessary to get the Bill passed into law as soon as possible. We shall also on that day take the Third Reading of the Cancer Bill, which your Lordships will have already discussed in all its stages and also the Second Reading of the China (Currency Stabilisation) Bill. I propose to take the Committee stage of the China (Currency Stabilisation) Bill on Tuesday, and the Third Reading on Wednesday, when all the stages of the Consolidated Fund Bill will be taken. The point which I wish to ask you to agree to is to have a purely formal meeting on Friday afternoon at a quarter past four, and then to pass the Czecho-Slovakia (Restrictions on Banking Accounts, etc.) Bill through all its remaining stages on the Monday.
House adjourned at twenty-four minutes past four o'clock.