HL Deb 13 July 1939 vol 114 cc173-87

Debate on the Motion of the Earl of Elgin and Kincardine resumed.

5.48 p.m.

LORD ROWALLAN

My Lords, it is not my intention to detain you very long, but up to now noble Lords have dealt with this subject from a general point of view and with your permission I would like to deal with one or two aspects of the situation in the part of the Highlands where perhaps, conditions may be found in their most exaggerated form. I think you will agree that in no case is there greater distress than in the Outer Hebrides and the situation is but very little better in Zetland. I had an opportunity a few years ago of visiting those areas as Chairman of a Committee delegated to review the livestock improvement schemes, and I think very few of your Lordships will realise the true conditions as they are in the Outer Hebrides unless you are familiar with them. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships that in the 1750's and the early part of the 1800's general agriculture was improving and this general improvement in the conditions of agriculture gave the chance for our great livestock producers to breed the herds as we see them to-day. But it would have been quite impossible without that improvement in general conditions to have brought about the wonderful producing machines which we saw at the Royal Show at Windsor a few days ago, and it would have been equally impossible for those machines to have existed in the conditions which were general in the 1750's and the 1800's. Yet those conditions are the conditions which we find at the present day in the Island of Lewis, and very largely in North and South Uist.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, is not still here, because he complained that it was the end of the communal system of agriculture and the position of landlordism which succeeded it which brought about the depopulation of these Islands. And yet I suppose there is no other part of the country in which the communal system with its run-rig tenure so predominates, and in spite of the vast proportion of the agricultural land being in the hands of the Department of Agriculture, and consequently under national ownership, those very conditions in the Island of Lewis have inevitably brought about the present lack of progress in that island. It is quite impossible for the crofter under the conditions which persist there to make a living; it is quite impossible for him to improve the condition of his holding, because what he cultivates this year is handed on next year to somebody else. And although he can, if he has the capital to fence his croft, preserve it for himself in certain townships, the cost of fencing an area which may be possibly twelve yards wide and half a mile long, is, as any of your Lordships who have anything to do with estate management will realise, quite impossible.

That is the position as we find it, and that is the position in which the livestock industry has to be maintained if agriculture is to continue in the island and the population is to remain there. I am convinced in my own mind that under those conditions the only breed of cattle which can exist is the breed which is native to the Islands, and that is the Highland cow. And yet what has been done under the livestock improvement schemes in the last few years? There has been a demand for an earlier maturing animal which would permit of a better price for the calf. Consequently the Government has been providing under the supply system, which is free of all charge, Shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus bulls to mate with the local cattle. That system has been disastrous. At the present time there are many townships where every single progeny of the supplied bull is sold off the farm before it is six months old, because if it is kept for longer than that it starts to deteriorate. And what takes the place of that calf six months old or less? The animal that is brought in is a young calf from a mainland dairy of the worst type, introducing disease, introducing a type which cannot possibly improve the local stock. Consequently the final position of that township is worse than it was at the beginning.

That is why at the present day in spite of large sums of money spent on the Islands in the supply of Shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus and other breeds, the type of cattle leaving those Islands on which the crofters have to depend for their livelihood is far worse than it was thirty, forty and fifty years ago. In some of these townships there is not the slightest sign or trace of the breed of any of the bulls which have been supplied for possibly 25 years or 30 years under the livestock improvement schemes in any animal over six months old. The blood of those animals has been wasted. And I would remind your Lordships that that is the case in the townships which are living in the poorest conditions, and in which no premium scheme is allowed to operate, but the bulls are supplied free of charge by the Department of Agriculture. One can realise quite clearly why that policy has been pursued. There are many people who feel that the crofter is entitled to all the assistance that he can get. They feel that an extra £2 for the calf is a small reward for their labours. I feel sure every one of your Lordships will sympathise with that view, but at the same time I would ask you to consider what is the future going to be of the livestock in the Islands—and it is very similar on many parts of the mainland.

The Committee of which I was Chairman called attention to these facts, and they pressed very hard upon the Government to supply only Highland bulls, and to insist upon some payment being made for Shorthorns and Aberdeen Angus bulls if they were demanded by the crofter. In 1936, 94 Highlands bulls were supplied free of charge to these townships; in 1937, 89, and in 1938 only 79; and during the same period, without any change in general conditions the number of Aberdeen Angus bulls rose from 94 to 102. I have no complaint whatsoever to make of the skill which is used by the Department's inspectors in selecting these animals. They are first-class of their type, but we have heard a great deal under the Licensing of Bulls Act about the scrub bull, and I would venture to say that under the conditions which are found in the Islands those animals which won the championship prizes at the Royal Show at Windsor would be scrubs. They cannot survive, they can do nothing but destroy the livestock which are indigenous to the Islands. It is a tragedy. It is a tragedy for which some remedy must be found, and it must be found quickly. Otherwise the livestock industry on which these men depend for their livelihood will be dead. Very much the same conditions are in existence in Zetland. There again the native breeds are being allowed to die out. Mainland types are being introduced, mainland types quite unsuited to the local conditions, and this must inevitably destroy the livelihood of those who try to wrest a living from the soil.

There is just one other point to which I would like to call attention, and one which is touched upon in the report, and that is the question of the subsidiary industry of Harris tweed manufacture. Those of your Lordships who have read the report will have seen that in that report attention is called to the fact that the very introduction of the Harris trade mark by its conditions has done much to destroy the industry in the crofts on which so many of these crofters depend for their livelihood. I can from my own experience, and talks with those who had in the past drawn a considerable supplement from the manufacture of Harris tweed, bear testimony to the fact that this is the case. Where in the past the crofters and their wives, sons, and daughters were employed in the dyeing, carding and spinning of the wool and in the weaving of the tweed, at the present time this is no longer the case. Only under Highland Home Industries, who have done magnificent work in keeping alive this old craft, are the true Harris woven tweeds still produced. Unless something is done to remedy this state of affairs also, we can look for no recrudescence of the spinning and weaving industry in the Islands.

There again the matter will have to be done quickly if it is to be done at all, and I would press upon His Majesty's Government that they should reconsider this trade mark and should be much stricter in their efforts to insist that the wool used is not only grown in Scotland, but actually in the Islands themselves. It is a specialised trade. It was built up on Island wool, but unfortunately much of the wool which is used in the mills at the present time is not grown in the Islands. It is not even grown in Scotland, because on the quay of Stornoway may be seen much wool which is not from Scotland's breeds of sheep, nor from breeds which have ever been in existence in Scotland, and yet it is sold under the trade mark of "Harris tweed." In conclusion I can only say how much I appreciate the work that Lord Elgin has done in calling attention to this report, and join with other noble Lords who have spoken in asking the Government that action should be taken and taken quickly. The time is passing, and very soon the Highlands will be dead and beyond the possibility of revival.

6.3 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, the Government are no less grateful than any of your Lordships to the noble Earl who has moved his Motion this afternoon, for the report of the Committee to which he has directed our attention may indeed be said to be a co-operative effort. The investigation of the Committee was undertaken with the good will of a previous Secretary of State for Scotland, the late Sir Godfrey Collins, in 1936, and the members of the Committee will be ready to admit, I think, that throughout that task they have met with every assistance from the Scottish Departments and have derived from them a great deal of information. The outcome of their labours is an extensive survey over a wide field. I would like to join with the noble Earl in paying a tribute to Major Hilleary and his colleagues for the careful and painstaking work for which they have been responsible and for the recommendation which they have now made to the Government. The speeches to which we have listened this afternoon are a reflection of the interest which has been aroused amongst the public and in the Press by the report. It is perhaps not unnatural in the circumstances that both in the Press and, with the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Stamp, in the speeches of your Lordships this afternoon, the greater stress has been placed upon the shadows in the picture of the Highlands and the Islands, and not so much has been said about the lighter portions of the picture where they exist.

Prominence, for example, was given by the noble Earl in his opening speech to the decline in the Highland population during the last hundred years. It is quite true that the numbers fell, according to figures which are given in the report itself, from 388,876 in 1831 to 293,212 in 1931—that is to say, a fall of 95,000 in a period of one hundred years. It is equally true that between 1921 and 1930 the rate of decline was high, something approaching 7.5 per cent. in ten years, but it is also true—and this may perhaps be a rather lighter gleam upon the picture—that since 1931 the figures which are published in the report suggest that this tendency of the population to decline has been arrested if it has not wholly disappeared. Whereas the 1931 population numbered 293,212, the 1936 population is estimated by the Registrar-General to be 291,849. That, as your Lordships will perceive, shows a fall of less than 1,400 in five years, or rather less than one-tenth of one per cent. per annum. I do not attach great importance to that, but it is an indication, perhaps, that the decline in the population is now coming to an end. Nobody will deny that in many respects there have been improvements in the conditions of life under which the people in the Highlands and Islands live. There is, of course, a housing problem, just as there is in other places, but anyone who knows the state of housing which existed in the North-West of Scotland and in the Hebrides only thirty years ago will realise that in the interval an immense improvement has been effected and largely, of course, by means of Government assistance.

The noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, made some interesting and, if I may say so, valuable suggestions with regard to the transport problem in the Hebrides, on which he speaks with intimate personal knowledge. The importance of transport facilities in the Western Isles is, of course, unquestioned. This has been recognised for a considerable time by special arrange- ments which have been made for subsidising the steamer services in that area. The cost of so doing to the Government has risen from £50,000 to £60,000 in the present year. In many cases piers are ä necessary feature in the picture of communications. Assistance for their improvement is given by the Department of Agriculture from the special provision made for public works in the Highlands and the Islands, and it may be of interest to your Lordships to know that the provision under that sub-head, which in 1934 stood at £8,000, was increased to £25,000 last year and to £30,000 in the present year. From this source combined with the additional powers which were conferred on local authorities by the Harbours, Piers and Ferries (Scotland) Act, 1937, it is hoped year by year to aid local authorities in respect of the necessary powers.

The noble Earl, Lord Mansfield, spoke of the extraordinarily low conditions of life in the Highlands and Islands years ago, and he doubted if anyone would wish to return to the Highlands and Islands if it was a case of having to submit to so low a standard of life as was prevalent in the earlier years of which he was speaking. There, again, I think that no one who is familiar with the Highlands and Islands will deny that there is a very considerable improvement in the general standard of life of the people, and when we come to special services, of which we have heard a good deal in the course of the debate this afternoon, would venture to remind your Lordships that the needs of the Highlands are in fact recognised by the grant of specially favourable terms of assistance in many directions. This applies in particular to the grants which are made by the Ministry of Transport for roads, which have figured so prominently in the speeches that have been delivered this afternoon. The crofting counties programme, which is now in progress and which will, I understand, cost some £6,000,000 and extend for a period of some seven years, is financed by 100 per cent. grants from the Ministry of Transport. That may not perhaps appeal quite so strongly to my noble friend Lord Stamp, but from the point of view of the crofting areas it is quite clear that it must be of great benefit to the inhabitants. In addition an exceptionally high rate of giant is allowed for certain improvements and the maintenance of roads.

Now let me say one word about facilities for education. In the case of education the Highlands once again benefit by special grants and by the operation of the formula on which the main education grant is calculated. As a result the percentage of the net expenditure on education which was met by grants from the Scottish Education Department for the year 1938–39 averaged 72 in the seven Highland counties as compared with 51½ in the rest of Scotland. Then, again, the Department of Agriculture for Scotland had special expenditure of upwards of £58,000 in the year 1937–38 for public works and for services in the Highlands and Islands in addition to their land settlement and crofter housing schemes.

The noble Earl who introduced this Motion, speaking of his own experience in some of the more inaccessible parts of the Highlands, suggested that there might be grave difficulty to the inhabitants in the matter of medical relief. That is, of course, perfectly true, but it should not be overlooked that much has been done and is being done by Government assistance to improve where possible the medical facilities for the general populace. There is, as many of your Lordships who come from the Highlands and Islands will well know, the fund known as the Highlands and Islands (Medical Services) Fund which has now an annual expenditure of over £100,000. This scheme makes medical services available to those who could not otherwise afford to pay for them. This is done by payment out of the fund of subsidies to the general practitioners in return for which their poorer patients get attendance at modified fees, and it is no exaggeration to say that this scheme has revolutionised the medical services in the Highlands and Islands.

Then, again, the provision of nurses is also secured by large grants from the fund. In 1914 the number of nurses at work in the Highlands and Islands was 107 of whom only 47 were fully trained. Now there are 200 nurses subsidised from the fund, and of these 182 are fully trained. As part of the scheme full-time highly qualified surgeons are now stationed for operative and consultative work in Zetland, Orkney, Lewis, Caithness, Sutherland and Fort William areas, which were formerly far removed from any such assistance. In 1938 some thirty-four patients who required urgent treatment in hospital were taken by aeroplane ambulance from the Hebrides to the Glasgow Infirmary and this was done with assistance from the find.

I am sure we all listened with great interest to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Rowallan. A few years ago the noble Lord was good enough to preside over a small Committee which was appointed to inquire into the schemes administered by the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, particularly for the improvement of livestock. In that connection the noble Lord made some very valuable suggestions. It would obviously be impossible for me in the time at my disposal to go in any detail into the manner in which his suggestions have been dealt with, but I should like to inform your Lordships of the action taken by the Government in regard to some of the more important of them. In the first place, under the head of organisation the noble Lord drew attention to the need for more visits of inspectors to crofts, for closer contact between Departmental staffs and county organisers and for co-operation with breed societies. I think the noble Earl, Lord Leven, made a particular point in the course of his speech of the importance which he attached to closer contact between the permanent officials and local authorities and others.

Since the noble Lord made his report the inspectorial staff of the Department has been augmented, and I am assured that much closer contact is now maintained with townships and societies assisted from State funds. Copies of the Department's livestock schemes are sent regularly to colleges who have agreed to co-operate and who have issued instructions to county organisers accordingly. The North of Scotland College, who are most directly concerned, have arranged that candidates for the post of county organiser should possess knowledge of livestock. The Department's inspectorate maintain contact with members of the breed societies at the various sales and elsewhere. With regard to the special recommendation in respect of the Shetland breed of cattle the noble Lord will be glad to hear that the Shetland Cattle Herd Book Society has been resuscitated and that the Department have intimated their anxiety to co-operate and have instructed their representative to keep in touch with the society as to the type of bull—and I know how much importance the noble Lord attaches to this matter—to be regarded as suitable for licensing purposes.

Under the head of administration the noble Lord made recommendations in regard to rates of premiums for bulls. With regard to the veto on types of breeds likely to be prejudicial to future stocks, the period for tuberculin testing for bulls and boars, and experiments in improved methods of cropping and management, the recommendations in regard to the first three items have, I am informed, been substantially carried out, and with regard to the encouragement of improved cropping a good deal of progress has been made. Actually three demonstration crofts have been set up in the North of Scotland College area, and consideration is to be given to the possibility of a substantial increase of such crofts as was, of course, recommended by the Hilleary Committee. In addition to these crofts, arrangements are well advanced for the establishment of a demonstration township in North Uist.

I hope that it will not be thought, because I have ventured to call the attention of your Lordships to some of the activities of the Government and of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, that either he or I is unduly complacent. We are not. No one realises better than does my right honourable friend the necessity for doing a great deal more. He will be grateful not only to the Committee for recommendations which they have made, but to many of your Lordships for the speeches which you have made in the course of this debate and in which you have put forward valuable suggestions. There was a particular point on which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, wished some assurance. That was with regard to the control which a Development Commissioner, if he was appointed, would have over the local authorities. I can assure the noble Lord that that is a point to which I will particularly call the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. May I say in passing that I was interested to notice the ingenious way in which the noble Lord brought the question of land nationalisation into the forefront of our proceedings this afternoon. That, of course, is all part of the noble Lord's political stock in trade, and it is always interesting to watch the devices by which an ingenious salesman endeavours to put across an unwilling public goods which it does not want. I always admire the noble Lord's efforts to put Socialism across in your Lordships' House.

The noble Earl, Lord Leven, asked my special attention to the matter I have already mentioned of closer contact between permanent officials and local authorities, and he also urged the desirability of a considerable enlargement of the schemes of the Forestry Commission.

THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE

May I interrupt the noble Marquess for a moment? With regard to my point of personal contact, he has made it clear that the counties in the North of Scotland have received liberal grants of public funds. I hope I made it clear that I never attempted to deny that. My difficulty, and the difficulty of others who, like me, live in the Highlands, is that we think we are, against our will, prevailed upon under the present system to spend large sums of public money and our own ratepayers' money by methods which we think are not entirely suitable to our areas. It is not shortage of money spent but the direction in which it is spent about which we complain. I do not want the noble Marquess to misunderstand me.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I quite appreciate what the noble Earl says, and of course different people will always have different views as to how public money should be spent, according to the part of the country in which they themselves reside. But what I was actually referring to when he very courteously interrupted me was his suggestion—at least, I understood it to be his suggestion—that the schemes of the Forestry Commission should be enlarged. He pointed out that there was work which was eminently suitable to the population in the Highlands and the Islands. Then the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, made a suggestion that a conference might be held in Glasgow or in Edinburgh with a view to considering how best funds could be made available in the present circumstances for the many recommendations contained in the report. I must not omit to say that I felt a feeling of sympathy with the noble Earl, Lord Haddington, when he expressed his hope that, if industrialisation were indeed to take place in the Highlands, at least reasonable steps would be taken to protect the amenities of the countryside, pointing out, as he did very truly, that within the confines of the Highlands are to be found some of the most lovely pieces of scenery in the world.

All those points will be brought to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. Your Lordships may say that, while I have spoken of what has been done and what is being done, I have been discreetly silent as to what is going to be done. That is perfectly true, but I am labouring under a considerable handicap. The recommendations of the report are still under consideration by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland. He has undertaken to make a statement when he has reached his conclusions, and he has expressed the hope that he will be in a position to make such a statement before the House rises for the Recess, but he is not in a position to make it at this moment. It is quite clear, therefore, that it would be impossible for the Secretary of State for India to anticipate the Secretary of State for Scotland in decisions at which he has not yet arrived. I hope that your Lordships will understand the difficulty of my position.

I can assure your Lordships of this: that my right honourable friend is wholly sympathetic with the tenor of the speeches which have been delivered this afternoon; but I must add one word of warning. The various schemes proposed will, of course, cost money. The noble Earl who introduced this Motion said that he hoped the Government would keep their eyes and their heart open, but I am afraid it is going to be more a question of whether they will be able to open the purse-strings. As was pointed out, I think, by my noble and learned friend Lord Alness, these are difficult times, and it is not to be expected that large sums of public money can be deflected from the essential object upon which we are all concentrating at the present time—namely, that of providing adequately for the defence of this country. I feel bound to give that word of warning.

Two of the main schemes which have been referred to—the creation of a Development Commissioner and the establishment of a Central Marketing Agency—would not only involve considerable cost but would also clearly require very careful thought before they could be adopted, Meanwhile, so far as the objects of a Central Marketing Agency are concerned, I would merely throw out as a suggestion that co-operative methods could perhaps be furthered through the agency of the Scottish Agricultural Organisation Society, provided, of course, that they received some further grant of public money. That is the position. Let me assure your Lordships once more that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will pay the closest attention to all that has been said in the course of this debate this afternoon, and I can assure you that all that ha; been said will receive not only his careful but also his most sympathetic consideration.

6.37 p.m.

THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINE

My Lords, I am sure that we all realise that the noble Marquess who responded for the Government is placed in an exceedingly difficult position as being responsible for a Department of Government which is very far removed from the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. But in spite of the notes of progress which were struck by the noble Lord, Lord Stamp, in his reference to the increase of traffic, and in spite of what the noble Marquess has himself said about grants and extra help given to various services in the Highlands, and while admitting his deduction from the report that the decline in population has not been quite so acute during recent years as it was in the decade before, I think many others of your Lordships who have studied or even read the report, or who have a personal interest in the Highlands, must have a feeling of regret that after eight months' consideration the Secretary of State for Scotland has been unable to make more progress than is recorded by the noble Marquess's statement to-day. It is perfectly true that he has promised, before the House rises for the Recess, to give a more direct statement himself as to what he is prepared to do. I think, however, that the noble Marquess in his reply to the debate took comfort when he claimed that we should not stress the claim of the Highlands to further grant help in view of the concentration of effort which the country must make now for Defence Services.

I do feel that there is one point which has not been considerably or adequately dealt with in his reply, and that is that actually in dealing with Defence Services, if we allow the present conditions to drift, not only do we deprive the Highlands of the power of doing what they wish to do, which is to take their full quota of responsibility of citizenship, as I said, both in men and in produce, but we also allow to continue the concentration of industry in these very densely populated areas; whereas if we took the line now of distributing the industries to districts which are not so vulnerable, we should do three good deeds in one. We should be bringing industry to the areas which want it; we should enable them to make their contribution; and we should make the problem of dealing with those vast industrial estates and their defences more easy for those whose task it is to defend them. Therefore I do press upon the noble Marquess to bring this point even more forcibly, if he can, before his right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland.

Finally, I think we must be regretful that the noble Marquess was not able to say something with regard to progress for the future. The report is a very long one, but as I have said, it produces a working plan which can be developed stage by stage. All I was anxious to get was an answer from the Government that they accepted that principle, and that they were prepared to take the first step. I hope the Secretary of State for Scotland, when he makes his announcement within the course of the next few days, will be able to announce that, because I definitely refrained in the quotation which I made from that song at the conclusion of my speech from giving the final sentence. I said: Now's the day, and now's the hour, but the final words are: Let us do, or die. I feel that probably there will be no purpose served by pressing my Motion further, and I therefore ask leave to withdraw it.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.