HL Deb 13 July 1939 vol 114 cc126-33

Amendments reported (according to Order).

The Title: An Act to provide for the regulation of certain collections for charitable purposes; and for matters connected therewith.

3.7 p.m.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN moved to leave out "certain" and insert "house to house." The noble Earl said: My Lords, I beg to move this Amendment. This is in accordance with the Amendment to be moved later relating to house to house collections. By making this change in the Title of the Bill it will simplify it, and people will be able to understand more readily to what the Bill refers than might be the case if the Title were left with the wider meaning it now has.

Amendment moved— In the Title leave out ("certain") and insert ("house to house").—(The Earl of Courtown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Licences.

(3) A police authority may refuse to grant a licence, or, where a licence has been granted, may revoke it, if it appears to the authority— (b) that remuneration at a rate which is excessive in relation to the total amount aforesaid is likely to be, or has been, retained or paid out out of the proceeds of the collection by or to any person;

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (3) (b), to leave out "at a rate." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, whenever Parliament has desired to prevent a person from obtaining benefit from his activities it has been found necessary not only to make provision that he should not receive money, but the words were always added, "or other valuable consideration." That was the practice until quite recently, when an ingenious draftsman had recourse to the word "remuneration" to cover both money and "valuable consideration." That word "remuneration" has been used in this Bill, but unfortunately in the subsequent context it has been forced back into its narrower meaning of money and money only. Thanks to the good offices of my noble friend Lord Bridport, I had the opportunity of discussing the matter with the Home Office, who agreed with the point I raised and were good enough to draft the Amendment for me. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 12, leave out ("at a rate").—(Viscount Bertie of name.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, the next Amendment, to the same paragraph, is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 14, leave out ("paid out") and insert ("received").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, the last Amendment in my name is also consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 15, leave out ("or to").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

3.10 p.m.

LORD LUKE moved to insert the following new subsections: (4) When a police authority refuse to grant a licence or revoke a licence which has been granted they shall forthwith give written notice to the applicant or holder of the licence stating upon which one or more of the grounds set out in subsection (3) of this section the licence has been refused or revoked and informing him of the right of appeal given by this section, and the applicant or holder of the licence may thereupon appeal to the Secretary of State against the refusal or revocation of the licence as the case may be and the decision of the Secretary of State shall be final. (5) The time within which any such appeal may be brought shall be fourteen days from the date on which notice is given under subsection (4) of this section. (6) If the Secretary of State decides that the appeal shall be allowed the police authority shall forthwith issue a licence or cancel the revocation as the case may be in accordance with the decision of the Secretary of State.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment gives the right of appeal to the Home Secretary. It was moved and eloquently explained by my noble friend Lord Macmillan on the last occasion, and your Lordships would not desire me to speak fully on it again to-day. I would call it the hospitals' second best Amendment. It was not pressed in Committee because it was hoped that we should obtain the Amendment in Clause 3 which would have given approved hospitals exemption, but we failed to obtain that Amendment and I now return to this, our second best. In order to avoid confusion, I am proposing to move the exact same Amendment as was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Macmillan, in Committee, but during the debate the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, a member of the Select Committee, said that he would prefer this Amendment if the appeal was limited to hospitals. I have no objection to it being so restricted, but I think any such limitation should come from someone not representing the hospitals, as our endeavours in connection with this Bill have been to make the conditions fair to all charities and we would not like to move any Amendment that gave us an exclusive position. No doubt if any action is to be taken on this matter it could be taken on Third Reading. I now beg to move the Amendment as printed.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 6, at end insert the said new subsections.—(Lord Luke.)

VISCOUNT BRIDPORT

My Lords, the reasons of the Government for thinking that the provision of an appeal to the Secretary of State was not really necessary were explained by me in Committee, but during that debate in Committee certain of your Lordships who spoke for the voluntary hospitals revealed considerable uneasiness that there was not an appeal to the Secretary of State. In order to remove the fears expressed the Home Secretary is prepared to agree that his Department should undertake the duty proposed in this Amendment.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN

My Lords, as the Home Office is prepared to accept the Amendment, I have no objection to it on behalf of the promoters of the Bill.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Regulations.

(2) Without prejudice to the generality of the powers conferred by the foregoing subsection, regulations made thereunder may make provision for all or any of the following matters, that is to say:— (e) in the case of collections in respect of which licences have been granted, for requiring the person to whom the licence was granted to furnish to the police authority by whom it was granted the prescribed information with respect to the expenses, proceeds and application of the proceeds of the collection in respect of which it was granted and for requiring the information furnished to be vouched and authenticated in such manner as may be prescribed.

3.13 p.m.

LORD LUKEhad given Notice of three Amendments to paragraph (e) in subsection (2)—namely, to leave out: "in the case of collections in respect of which licences have been granted"; to leave out "the person to whom the licence was granted to furnish to the police authority by whom it was granted"; and to leave out "in respect of which it was granted" and insert "to be furnished, in the case of a collection in respect of which a licence has been granted, by the person to whom it was granted to the police authority by whom it was granted, and, in the case of a collection in respect of which an order has been made, by the person thereby exempted from the provisions of subsection (2) of Section one of this Act to the Secretary of State."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Clause 4 (2) (e) contemplates regulations requiring a licensed charity to supply the police with the prescribed information about expenses, proceeds, and application of the proceeds of the collection in respect of which it was granted, whereas the Bill does not mention any requirement that an exempted "national" charity should furnish such information to anybody. The Amendments I have put down provide that the charities about to be placed on the favoured list would have to produce their accounts and show the proportion of expenses to collections and, as it were, qualify for exemption from the Home Secretary in the same way as the hospitals would have to do before the local police authority. I shall be quite candid and say that I trust these Amendments may restrict the number of charities who get on the national exempted list, and to that extent make the hospitals freer of competition in their own localities. I hope that the Home Office when placing charities on the exempted list will make sure not only that those charities are capable of collecting all over the country but that they are giving real service in each of the areas in which they may appeal from door to door. Also, I hope when the Home Secretary issues directions to the local police authorities with reference to the granting of licences he will ask them to be as helpful as they can to the hospitals in this matter, because the hospitals are not only the most essential charity, but with their total requirements of £15,000,000 a year, in these difficult times they become the most necessitous.

I have been asked by the Home Office to move the third Amendment in a modified form, the only change being that collections are referred to in the plural instead of the singular. I therefore beg leave to move it in that way, and the amended paragraph would then run: for requiring the prescribed information with respect to the expenses, proceeds and application of the proceeds of collections to be furnished, in the case of collections in respect of which licences have been granted, by the person to whom the licence was granted to the police authority by whom it was granted, and, in the case of collections in respect of which an order has been made, by the person thereby exempted from the provisions of subsection (2) of Section one of this Act to the Secretary of State, and, for requiring the information furnished to be vouched and authenticated in such manner as may be prescribed. I beg to move the first Amendment in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 5, leave out from the beginning of line 18 to ("for") in line 19.—(Lord Luke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LUKE

My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment in my name.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 19, leave out from ("requiring") to ("the") in line 22.—(Lord Luke.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD LUKE

My Lords, I now beg to move the third Amendment in my name in the form which I have read to the House.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 24, leave out ("in respect for which it was granted") and insert ("collections to be furnished, in the case of collections in respect of which licences have been granted, by the person to whom the licence was granted to the police authority by whom it was granted, and, in the case of collections in respect of which an order has been made, by the person thereby exempted from the provisions of subsection (2) of Section one of this Act to the Secretary of State.")—(Lord Luke.)

THE EARL OF COURTOWN

My Lords, as I understand the Home Office is prepared to accept this Amendment, I also agree to it.

VISCOUNT BRIDPORT

My Lords, with regard to the Amendments as a whole, it always had been intended that "national" charities should furnish the Secretary of State with information corresponding with that which local charities would be required to furnish to the police authorities and the provision made in Clause 3 (2) for the revocation of exemptions of "national" charities would give the Secretary of State all the power needed for that purpose. However, the Joint Committee recommended that exempted charities should be required to comply with all regulations affecting the actual conduct of the collection, and the Government do not wish to object to the present Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7:

Delegation of functions.

7.—(1) Any functions conferred by this Act on a police authority may be delegated by the authority—

  1. (a) in the case of the authority for the Metropolitan Police District, to the Commissioner of Police of the metropolis; or
  2. (b) in any other case, to a committee or sub-committee consisting of members of the authority appointed by the authority for the purpose of the exercise of those functions.

3.20 p.m.

VISCOUNT BRIDPORT moved, in subsection (1), to leave out paragraph (a) and "(b) in any other case" in paragraph (b). The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment is related to the proposed new clause after Clause 8, which stands on the Paper in my name. Both are consequential on the Amendment made to Clause 2. Clause 7 as it stands empowers the Secretary of State, who is the police authority for the Metropolitan Police District, to delegate the duty of dealing with applications for licences to the Commissioner of Police. He intended to exercise this power, but does not think it right that the Bill should appear to contemplate the possibility of the Secretary of State being the court of first instance as well as the court of appeal. It is therefore proposed to replace the provision for delegation by a new clause definitely transferring the duty of dealing with applications arising in the Metropolitan Police District to the Commissioner.

Amendment moved— Page 6, leave out from the beginning of line 25, to ("to") in line 28.—(Viscount Bridport.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BRIDPORT

My Lords, the next Amendment on the Paper is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 33, at end insert the following new clause:—

Application to Metropolitan Police District.

("9.—(1) This Act shall have effect, in relation to collections in a locality within the Metropolitan Police District and to licences in respect thereof, as if, for the reference in subsection (1) of Section two of this Act to the police authority for the police area comprising that locality, and for any reference in this Act to a police authority, there had been substituted a reference to the Commissioner of Police of the metropolis.

(2) The functions which may be delegated by a chief officer of police by virtue of subsection (2) of Section seven of this Act shall not include any functions conferred on the said Commissioner by virtue of the preceding subsection.").—(Viscount Bridport.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 11:

Short title, commencement, interpretation and extent.

11.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Charitable Collections (Regulation) Act, 1939.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "Charitable Collections (Regulation)" and insert "House to House Collections." The noble Earl said: My Lords, as I explained just now the Title of the Bill has been altered, and the purpose of this Amendment is to bring the clause into accord with it. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 9, line 17, leave out ("Charitable Collections (Regulation)") and insert ("House to House Collections").—(The Earl of Courtown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.