HL Deb 03 August 1939 vol 114 cc798-806

Reported without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House forthwith.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[LORD STANMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Establishment and constitution of Corporation.

1.—(1) So soon as may be after the passing of this Act, there shall be established for the purposes thereof a corporation to be known as the British Overseas Airways Corporation (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the Corporation").

3.15 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "British Overseas Airways" and insert "British Airways (1939)." The noble Lord said: I would like, if I may, to move on behalf of my noble friend Lord Marley this Amendment which stands in his name. I will move it formally, because it may be possible by agreement to get some other form of words which will meet the situation. Your Lordships will be aware that both in another place, and also in the speech of my noble friend Lord Marley on the Second Reading, objection was taken to the proposed title. I understand that in another place the Secretary of State for Air said that if agreement was reached about a better title he would be prepared to support it. It has been conveyed to me that there might be agreement either on the title proposed by my noble friend, or even more perhaps by altering the title to "Royal Airways." Another alternative would be "Royal British Airways." There is a feeling that the word "Royal" should be brought in. There is a precedent for that in the Koninklijke Luchvaart Maatschappij, the Royal Dutch Air Line. I understand also that the Corporation itself, or the Imperial Airways, would welcome that title, but if there is any difficulty perhaps you might leave this question of the title for further negotiation. It is rather late in the Session, and we do not want to delay the House in view of the fact that my noble friend Lord Snell is initiating a very important debate. I have here, as an alternative to my noble friend's Amendment, a manuscript Amendment to leave the title to the Secretary of State to direct later. Perhaps if the noble Marquess will give his views on the subject I may keep my manuscript Amendment in reserve. I formally move the Amendment on behalf of my noble friend Lord Marley.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 1, leave out ("British Overseas Airways") and insert ("British Airways (1939)").—(Lord Strabolgi.)

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND)

I appreciate the fact that there is a certain difference of opinion as to the best title for this Corporation, but I am bound to say that my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Air, and others, have given this matter very careful consideration. They have considered every possible title, but for one reason or another they have proved to be impracticable. The initials of other titles that have been considered, for example, represent other institutions already in existence. The noble Lord, Lord Marley, proposes to alter the title from "British Overseas Airways" to "British Airways (1939)." There are certain objections to that title. To begin with it is the title of one of the two companies which are to be merged in the Corporation, and it is the smaller of the two companies. It would certainly be likely to give to many people the impression, if the new Corporation were to be called "British Airways (1939)" that this was merely a reconstruction of the existing smaller company. I should rather hope that your Lordships would be prepared to accept the title already in the Bill. After all, what is the objection to "British Overseas Airways"? It describes with complete accuracy the nature of the task which the Corporation is to undertake, and it seems to me that in those circumstances it is certainly the most appropriate title for the new Corporation. I do not wish to say anything with regard to the suggestion that the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi threw out as an alternative, but so far as the Amendment of Lord Marley is concerned, for the reasons which I have given I hope the noble Lord will not press it.

LORD STRABOLGI

In view of that answer, I certainly do not press it. I felt the objection that the noble Marquess has stated when my noble friend showed me the Amendment. I thought then that to take the title of one of the existing airways would be rather invidious. The trouble, of course, is the initials, and B.O.A. to many people's minds represents a great snake. To me it represents the adornment of a woman's neck. In my younger days my mother wore a boa, which was very becoming. So I do not feel the same objection as some people do to that title, but I have handed in a manuscript Amendment dealing with this matter, and I ask leave to withdraw this Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

3.22 p.m.

LORD STRABOLGI moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "as the British Overseas Airways Corporation," and insert "by such title as the Secretary of State may direct." The noble Lord said: This has been suggested to me by a certain honourable member in another place, who takes a great interest in this matter. I see the difficulty with regard to the title, but I presume that can be got over, and this is only a suggestion. I understand that even in Imperial Airways it is realised that there might be a better name than the one in the Bill. Apart from this idea of the boa constrictor, "British Overseas Airways" is not a very good title. It does not sound right to my ears, and many other people say the same. It is rather clumsy, and we like the idea of bringing in the word "Royal." The Corporation is now, after all, a semi-Government organisation. I do not know what reception this proposal will have, but at any rate, I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, leave out from ("known") to ("hereafter") in line 11, and insert ("by such title as the Secretary of State may direct").—(Lord Strabolgi.)

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The only result, I feel sure, of accepting this Amendment, would be that the Secretary of State would at once decide that the Corporation should be called "British Overseas Airways Corporation," and we should therefore be precisely where we now are. Surely it is reasonable that, since this is a Parliamentary measure, Parliament should accept responsibility for the title which they give to the Bill. I hope your Lordships will allow the clause to stand as it is.

LORD STRABOLGI

I presume we can always change the name later on, and I dare say there will be other mergers and amalgamations and Bills dealing with this important service. I thank the noble Marquess for the interest he has taken in the matter, and I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clauses 2 to 31 agreed to.

Clause 32:

His Majesty's aircraft to have free use and benefit of aerodromes and other facilities.

32. The Corporation shall, without making any charge therefor, afford to any aircraft which is being used in His Majesty's service the use of any aerodrome controlled by the Corporation, and the benefit of any housing, wireless or other facilities which the Corporation have available:

Provided that the Corporation shall not by virtue of this section be under an obligation to afford the use of any aerodrome or the benefit of any facility in circumstances in which any interference with the discharge of the functions of the Corporation would be occasioned by their so doing.

3.25 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to leave out Clause 32. The noble Marquess said: Perhaps I might take this Amendment and the Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 33 together, because they deal with one problem—namely, the provision by the Corporation of aerodrome and other facilities to other than their own liners. This Amendment is really moved in order to meet certain representations which were made to my right honourable friend in another place. The omission of Clause 32 is made good later on in the proposed new Clause 33. Subsection (1) of the proposed new Clause 33 provides that the Corporation may make facilities available to other people, and may make such reasonable charges as they think fit for so doing. It is, I understand, quite possible that the power to make their facilities available to other persons may be implicit in Clause 2 of the Bill, but it was considered desirable, when dealing with the question of reasonable charges and the power of the Secretary of State to direct the Corporation to make their facilities available to others, to deal directly in this clause with the Corporation's power to afford the facilities.

Then subsection (2) of the proposed new clause reproduces in effect the substantive part of Clause 32, which I am moving to omit. Subsection (3) gives effect to the undertaking of the Secretary of State, by providing that he may direct the Corporation to afford to the aircraft of others, at reasonable charges, the benefit of the Corporation's facilities. The words "aircraft flown by, or in the service of, such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the direction" are intended to enable the Secretary of State to discriminate in the direction in favour of any British aircraft or non-commercial aircraft. Subsection (4) reproduces in a modified form the proviso of Clause 32 in the Bill as it left another place, and it provides that the Corporation shall not be bound to allow the use of their facilities either to aircraft in His Majesty's service, or to other aircraft, in circumstances which would occasion interference with the discharge of their own duties. I believe that the Amendment does meet the representations which have been made to my right honourable friend, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 32.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

LORD STRABOLGI

This Amendment is an important one. We consider it an improvement to the Bill and welcome it. It prevents the formation of a possible monopoly.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 33 agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I beg to move the new clause.

Amendment moved— Page 22, line 27, after Clause 33, insert the following new clause:

Provision by Corporation of aerodrome and other facilities.

(".—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the Corporation may afford to aircraft not being used in the service of the Corporation the use of aerodromes controlled by the Corporation and the benefit of housing, wireless or other facilities available to the Corporation, and may make in respect of any such use or benefit such reasonable charges as they think fit.

(2) The Corporation shall, without making any charge therefor, afford to any aircraft which is being used in His Majesty's service the use of any such aerodrome and the benefit of any such facilities as aforesaid.

(3) The Secretary of State may direct the Corporation to afford, at reasonable charges, to aircraft flown by, or in the service of, such persons or classes of persons as may be specified in the direction the use of such aerodromes controlled by the Corporation, or the benefit of such facilities available to them, as may be so specified.

(4) The Corporation shall not, by virtue of subsection (2) of this section, or of any direction of the Secretary of State under subsection (3) of this section, be under any obligation to afford the use of any aerodrome or the benefit of any facilities in circumstances in which any interference with the discharge of functions of the Corporation would be occasioned by their so doing").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 34 to 38 agreed to.

Clause 39:

Continuance of compassionate allowances.

39. Where immediately before the appointed day—

  1. (a) a person who was formerly in the employment of either of the existing companies; or
  2. (b) the widow or dependant of a deceased person who was formerly in such employment,
is in receipt of a pension or a superannuation or other allowance from that company granted in pursuance of customary practice and not as a matter of legal right, then that person or, as the case may be, his widow or dependant shall be entitled to receive from the Corporation the same pension or allowance and on the same conditions as previously obtaining.

3.29 p.m.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, after "entitled," to insert "for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted." The noble Marquess said: I understand that there was some doubt whether the clause as it at present stands gives effect to the intention of Parliament. The last four lines of the clause, as I propose to amend them by the two Amendments standing in my name, will read as follows: that person or, as the case may be, his widow or dependant, shall be entitled for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted to receive from the Corporation the same pension or allowance as a matter of legal right, but otherwise on the same conditions as previously obtaining. They are to a large extent drafting Amendments to make quite clear the intention of the clause.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 10, after ("entitled") insert ("for the remainder of the period for which the pension or allowance was granted").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 11, leave out ("and") and insert ("as a matter of legal right but otherwise").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

First Schedule [Supplementary provisions as to the Corporation]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

This is a purely drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 29, line 10, leave out ("section") and insert ("paragraph").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second, Third, and Fourth Schedules agreed to.

Fifth Schedule [Provisions as to wages, etc.]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Amendment, in paragraph 2, to leave out "trade societies," and insert "associations representative of employees" is to make clear the meaning of the phrase "trade societies." It has been asked whether by "trade societies" are meant trade unions. The answer to that is that that is so, but that "trade unions" do not necessarily cover the whole ground. There may be some parts of the world where trade unions do not exist in the form in which we know them, and it is proposed therefore, in order to make the intention of Parliament quite clear, to use instead of either "trade societies" or "trade unions" the phrase "associations representative of employees." That will make it perfectly clear that these people are to have the right for which they are asking of being recognised by the management for the purposes of the discussion of questions between employer and employee.

Amendment moved— Page 43, line 18, leave out ("trade societies") and insert ("associations representative of employees").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

LORD STRABOLGI

I wonder if the noble Marquess would be so good as to inform me—I have to confess my ignorance of this—whether this Amendment satisfies the trade union representatives who raised the point in another place. I have not myself had time to consult them.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

So far as I know, it does. It certainly should do so because the new phrase has a wider meaning than "trade unions." It covers employees of all kinds employed by the Corporation, not necessarily in this country but in other parts of the world.

LORD STRABOLGI

I am much obliged. I apologise for asking, but we have rather a pressure of work at this time of the Session, and I have not been able to consult with my friends in another place. These words are much wider, and they would cover the greatest trade union in the world—the trade union to which the noble and learned Lord belongs, the great trade union of the law. I am sure the noble Lord would welcome the Amendment.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM)

I do not belong to it.

LORD STRABOLGI

You are ipso facto a member.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedule agreed to.

House resumed.

Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, in pursuance of the Resolution of the House of Monday, July 24:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, I beg to move that the Report of Amendments be now received.

Moved, That the Report of Amendments be now received.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Amendments reported accordingly.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now read 3a.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.