Lords Sitting of 26 April 1939

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
MILFORD HAVEN AND TENBY WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
BARMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
ALL HALLOWS LOMBARD STREET BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.

DROITWICH CANALS (ABANDONMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION.
Examiners' certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee.
NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL.
WEAR NAVIGATION AND SUNDERLAND DOCK BILL.
WILLENHALL URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.

COMPULSORY MILITARY TRAINING.
4 p.m.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government whether they are now prepared to adopt some measure of compulsory National Service, including service in the armed forces; and move for Papers. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I understand the Prime Minister is at the present moment making a statement in another place on the question of compulsory National Service. Your Lordships will doubtless feel that the present is not a convenient moment for debating this matter. I am therefore inviting His Majesty's Government to
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make a statement here, and I beg to move the Motion standing in my name.
4.1 p.m.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, His Majesty's Government have recently given fresh consideration to the procedure applicable to measures which they might consider necessary to put the country into a complete state of preparedness for defence. The result of their investigation shows that the present procedure for the mobilisation of the forces is antiquated in character and quite unsuited to modern conditions, based as it is upon the hypothesis that war could only come after such a period of warning as would give time to change from a peace to a war footing.
Broadly speaking, under present procedure mobilisation, whether complete or partial, can only take place after the issue of a Proclamation, which is different in the case of each Service, declaring that a state of emergency exists. The issue of such Proclamations was no doubt originally contemplated as taking place when the outbreak of war appeared imminent. But in present times war may not appear imminent, and yet the general conditions may be so uncertain that it is desirable to take certain precautions without the publicity and the shock to public confidence which would be caused by the issue of Proclamations. Accordingly the Government have decided at once to introduce a Bill entitled the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Bill which will simplify the procedure and enable His Majesty by Order in Council to authorise the various Service Departments to call up any class or description of Reserve and Auxiliary Forces. The Bill will be temporary in character in the same way as another Bill to which I shall refer later, and we hope it will be passed without any delay, in order that we may be empowered to act under it at once. I may say that every other country in Europe has the powers which we seek to obtain under this Bill and practically every one has availed itself of them at one time or other to effect a partial mobilisation of its forces.
The Government have given consideration also to the new liabilities which, with the approval of all quarters of this House, they have incurred in Europe within the last month, and to the means they have at their disposal to discharge them effect-

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tively. I need perhaps hardly repeat that the object of the assurances we have given to certain countries as well as of the conversations now proceeding with other Governments is not to wage war but to prevent it. Bearing this object in mind we cannot but be impressed with the view, shared by other democratic countries and especially by our friends in Europe, that despite the immense efforts this country has already made by way of rearmament nothing would so impress the world with the determination of this country to offer a firm resistance to any attempt at general domination as its acceptance of the principle of compulsory military service, which is the universal rule on the Continent. There is an obvious weakness in a voluntary system which allows one man to devote himself to pleasure or to gain, while his neighbour devotes his leisure and his holidays to training himself to be ready in war to risk his life and the future of his family for his country.
It is, I believe, generally understood and accepted that in time of war military service would be made compulsory from the outset. But hitherto it has not been thought necessary to introduce any such measure in peace time, and the Prime Minister has himself renewed the pledge given by his predecessor that compulsory service would not be introduced during the life of this Parliament in peace time. We are not at war now, but when every country is straining all its resources to be ready for war, when confidence in the maintenance of peace is being undermined and everyone knows that if war were to come we might pass into it in a matter not of weeks but of hours, no one can pretend that this is peace time in any sense in which the term could fairly be used.
There is a second reason for a reconsideration of this matter in addition to its value as indicating our resolve effectively to play our part in ensuring peace. Under the Bill which I have already described to the House it will be necessary to call up certain Territorial and non-Regular Air Force personnel to reinforce our system of anti-aircraft defence throughout a period of uneasiness which may last for a considerable time yet. But it must be recognised that this will entail on the part of Territorials who are called up a sacrifice greater and more prolonged than was anticipated when they enrolled,
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and it would be neither fair to them nor to their employers that they should be expected to shoulder such burdens for long. Accordingly the Government have come to the conclusion that to meet these new and, I hope, exceptional conditions some measure of compulsory military training has, for the time being, become necessary. I say "for the time being" because I wish to emphasize that the Government's proposals (which will be embodied in a second Bill to be introduced in another place at the same time as the first and to be entitled the Military Training Bill), will be of a temporary character. As will be the case with the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Bill, it is contemplated that the powers given by the Military Training Bill will last for three years, but that if an any earlier date the Government are of opinion that circumstances have so changed as to make these powers no longer necessary they can be brought to an end by Order in Council. On the other hand, they can be extended after the three years for a year at a time, but only after an affirmative Resolution has been passed by both Houses of Parliament.
It is proposed that the Military Training Bill will be introduced in another place next week, and I do not therefore propose to enter upon any account of its details. I will however inform your Lordships of its main features, which are: Firstly, power to call up for military training all men between the ages of twenty and twenty-one. Secondly, the training to be given in this country only, unless war breaks out, when liability to serve abroad would apply to all alike whether already called up or not. Thirdly, the men to be called up will receive six months training, and at the end of that period they will be discharged and given the opportunity, if there is a vacancy, of entering the Territorial Army for three and a half years, during which time they would be called upon to fulfil the normal obligations of a Territorial soldier—namely, a fixed number of drills a year and a period in camp. If they do not exercise the option they will pass to a special Reserve of the Regular Army. Arrangements will be made to cover the cases of men who, before reaching the age of twenty, enter the auxiliary arms of the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force, where they would undergo comparable periods of training. Fourthly, provision will be made whereby

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individuals, when good cause is shown, may anticipate or postpone for a specified period the date of their calling up, so far as national interests permit. Fifthly, provision will be made for exemption by tribunals of conscientious objectors, on condition that they undertake work of national importance.
The introduction of this measure leaves the voluntary system as the basis of the three Defence Services. The voluntary principle will continue for recruitment for the Royal Navy, for the Regular Army, for the Regular and non-Regular Air Force and for the Territorials, as well as for all branches of civil defence. It is of the utmost importance that the Regular and Auxiliary Forces should be maintained at full strength.
I will now mention another matter which has frequently been referred to in the course of discussions on the subject of compulsory military service—namely, what is sometimes called the "conscription of wealth." Wealth is of course very largely "conscripted" already. Income Tax, Surtax, Estate Duties, are at a high level; all have been increased year after year, and further increases in Surtax and Estate Duty have just been announced. We intend to take further steps to limit the profits of firms mainly engaged on the rearmament programme, and the necessary legislation will be introduced at an early date. Already the Departments exercise the greatest possible care in fixing prices to ensure that only reasonable profits are made, but experience shows the difficulty of providing for all the possible contingencies beforehand, and, in the case of the establishments I have indicated, it is felt that a definite limitation of profits is the only method of achieving the desired object with certainty.
There is another aspect of this question which has to do with conditions during war, if war should ever come. I wish to make it clear that, in the opinion of His Majesty's Government, the time when the country is engaged in a major war is not a time when individuals should be increasing their fortunes out of the conditions which war creates. It is their intention, therefore, that, if such a war broke out, legislation should be enacted which would impose special penalties on profiteering, and would provide that any increases of profit or increases of indi-
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vidual wealth should be appropriately curtailed to the benefit of the State.
In conclusion, I would point out that the proposals I have just outlined have arisen, like other steps in the marshalling of our defences, out of the sequence of events. The acceleration and expansion of our rearmament programme, the increase in the strength of the Territorial Army, the decision to establish a Ministry of Supply with power to secure priority for Government orders, and now the proposal for compulsory training, have all been designed with one single object—namely, to render this country able to carry out the engagements it has entered into, in the belief that in that way the peace of Europe can best be secured.
4.14 p.m.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, it is not appropriate, in my judgment, that this should be the occasion of an impromptu debate upon the statement that we have just heard from the noble Earl the Leader of the House, a statement which involves for millions of poor families some sacrifice and complete disillusionment, which also involves disorganisation of industrial processes and interference with the rearmament programme, and involves altogether the end of individual freedom as we have always known it in this country. These things must and will form the occasion of a searching debate on an early occasion. If I understood the noble Earl aright, a Bill will be introduced in another place next week, and, unless it is forced through by the raw material of the Voting Lobbies, it will not have a speedy passage through that House. Therefore it seems to me that some earlier occasion should be discovered for a discussion of the matter in your Lordships' House. Whether that should be done by a Motion of the Government, or by something put on the Paper by myself or by another noble Lord, is a matter which I think we must almost immediately consider.
I desire to say one word of comment upon one aspect of the matter which in my judgment does not admit of any delay, and I want to say it with an emphasis which I hope the Government will understand and not ignore. That is the repudiation by the Government of promises which were apparently solemnly given to members of my Party, to the trade union movement, and to the nation through

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Parliament, that conscription in any form would not be introduced during the lifetime of this Parliament or in time of peace. Yet the Government come down to the House to-day without any excuse for breaking those promises and without any consultation with those whose faith in the matter was also pledged. The Government asked for and received from the Labour movement the fullest co-operation in the prosecution of the programme for rearmament. Promises were made by separate Ministers to the heads of the trade union movement, when asking for their co-operation, that the voluntary system would be maintained. At so recent a date as March 29 the Prime Minister in another place gave that assurance to the nation through Parliament. I will not say he made a solemn promise, because he did not on that occasion undertake to eat his hat if he did not keep his word. He has done that on a previous occasion, and, so far as I know, the hat is still undigested.
But the Labour Party, my Lords, were willing, as always, to place national interests before Party advantages, and they accepted those assurances as binding and threw themselves into the immediate industrial and personal service of the land at that time. That work has not been hindered on its industrial side outside Parliament, nor on its political side by that movement in either of the Houses. If these promises were of no importance for the Government, they were essential to us, and if they were to be repudiated, it seems to common people like ourselves that ordinary courtesy to those who had induced the Labour movement to accept those promises as valid should have dictated that they should have been consulted before the promises were broken. Why was that not done?
"Why, father, is the net removed? Son, it has caught the fish."
That is the only interpretation we can place upon it. That is all I wish to say on this occasion. The Labour movement feels that it has bull used, and that it has been betrayed. One result of it will be immediate, and it may be startling. It will be, I think, that the national unity will at least be suspended, if not broken. The Government by their own act have broken that understanding, and we are now free to take whatever line seems to us right in the matter. We shall consider the needs of the nation in everything we
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do, but we cannot feel that the Labour movement has been properly treated on this momentous occasion.
4.21 p.m.
VISCOUNT BUCKMASTER: My Lords, if none of your Lordships wish to speak, I rise to withdraw the Motion standing in my name. In doing so I am sure I am voicing the wishes of your Lordships in expressing our thanks to the noble Earl the Leader of the House for the statement which he has made, the great importance of which must be apparent to us all. I would like to take this opportunity, as no other occasion has presented itself, of telling the noble Earl, if I may, that although I have not at all times been able to share that optimism which His Majesty's Government have expressed, I am not unmindful of the great and courageous efforts which he and those who have laboured with him have made in the cause of peace. I am indeed glad that His Majesty's Government have at last seen fit to adopt the principle of compulsory National Service. I have no intention of saying anything further about it at this moment, nor of debating proposals which none of us have had any opportunity of considering.
I would, with your Lordships' permission, with great briefness, like just to refer to my motives for putting down the Motion which originally stood in my name. This was not done out of arty spirit of hostility towards the Nazi leaders. My wishes are, as indeed must be those of your Lordships, that every reasonable effort should be used to remain on friendly terms with the great countries which they represent. Nor, indeed, when I put down these Motions have I felt that there was anything in the principle underlying them which would conflict with the great, the generous gesture in the cause of peace which we have recently witnessed from the President of the United States—a gesture which even at this late hour I hope Herr Hitler may find it possible to reciprocate in some degree. It is only because I believe that by strength alone can peace be secured that those Motions were put down. I feel, indeed, that His Majesty's Government, in doing what they have, have done more to encourage those allied to us, more to discourage those opposed to us, and more to remove the doubts of those whose allegiance is still uncertain, than they could have done

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in any other way. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

ARMY AND AIR FORCE (ANNUAL) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT SUPERANNUATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at twenty-six minutes past four o'clock.