Lords Sitting of 4 April 1939

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
SCOTTISH UNION AND NATIONAL INSURANCE COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
OSWESTRY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
TYNEMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GOSPORT CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
THE KING EDWARD THE SEVENTH WELSH NATIONAL MEMORIAL ASSOCIATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

PREVENTION OF FRAUD (INVESTMENTS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
Clause 16:
Trustees of unit trusts.
16.—(1) The Board of Trade may by order declare to be an authorised unit trust scheme for the purposes of this Act any unit trust scheme in relation to which the Board are satisfied that the following conditions are fulfilled, that is to say:—
(a) that each of the persons who are respectively the manager and the trustee under the scheme is a corporation incorporated under the law of some part of the United Kingdom, and having a place of business in Great Britain at which notices and other documents are received on behalf of the corporation, and
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM) moved, in subsection (1), after paragraph (a), to insert:
"(b) that the scheme is such that the effective control over the affairs of the corporation which is the manager under the scheme is and will be exercised independently of the corporation which is the trustee under the scheme, and"
The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to meet a point raised by my noble friend Viscount Buckmaster and supported by some others of your Lordships. The idea at first was to give the clause somewhat wider effect, but after consideration the Government thought it right to meet the point by inserting the words printed on the Amendment Paper. I think the Amendment meets the point raised by my noble friend and will probably have the approval of your Lordships.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 23, at end insert the said new paragraph (b).—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26:
Interpretation.
"representative's licence" means a licence authorising the holder thereof to deal in securities as a servant of any holder of a principal's licence for the time being in force;
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "representative's licence," after "servant," to insert "or agent." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment consequential on the Amendment made to Clause 1 (1) (b) in committee, when the words "or agent" were added to the description of a person who is required to be in possession of a representative's licence. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 34, after ("servant") insert ("or agent").—(Loud Templemore).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the next Amendment is also drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 2, after ("servant") insert ("or agent").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The Schedule:

PREVENTION OF FRAUD (INVESTMENTS) BILL.

  SCHEDULE.
  Matters for which Trust Deeds pursuant to Unit Trust Schemes must provide.
  5. For the audit and publication of accounts relating to the trust (including accounts of the manager in relation to the trust and statements of his remuneration in connection therewith).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR had given Notice of an Amendment, in paragraph 5, to leave out "publication" and insert "the circulation to holders of units." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is due to the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, who raised the question whether the words in the paragraph, which requires the publication of accounts, meant publication to the world. I am not sure that the words would have that effect, but it was thought proper to make the matter clear—because doubtful things in a Bill should always be made clear—and this Amendment which is on the Paper in the names of Lord Templemore and myself would at least have done that. The noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, however, has sent in an Amendment so drafted that it is to some extent, at any rate, an Amendment to the Amendment on the Paper. In these circumstances I think the right course is that either he should move an Amendment taking in the Government Amendment and inserting the words he proposes, or that I, by the leave of your Lordships, should incorporate his Amendment in my Amendment that stands on the Paper. But the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, is technically, I think, too late to table his Amendment. I think therefore there is some difficulty in allowing his Amendment to be moved, but I am quite willing to incorporate his Amendment, so far as Notice has been given of it, in my Amendment.
  Lord Rankeillour's Amendment is to leave out the word "publication" and to insert the words "making available free of charge to holders of units." If that is done, paragraph 5 would begin:
  "For the audit and making available free of charge to holders of units …"
  I am not sure that there is not some technical difficulty in inserting the further words "who so desire," which are proposed by the noble Lord—perhaps he will deal with that himself—owing to the lack
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  of proper Notice. The paragraph would then go on:
  "of accounts relating to the trust (including accounts of the manager in relation to the trust and statements of his remuneration in connection therewith)."
  Your Lordships know that I never take it upon myself to pretend to be any sort of authority on the rules of procedure in your Lordships' House. When I came here this evening I thought I would be able to move the insertion of the words "who so desire" at the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, but I think no Notice has been given to your Lordships. I understand that I am not entitled to incorporate them in the Amendment which stands in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Templemore, and myself. If there is that difficulty we must leave them out and I would move to leave out the word "publication" and to insert "making available free of charge to holders of units."
  LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, I understand that the practice of the House is that a new Amendment cannot be put on the Third Reading unless it has appeared on the Paper, but that that rule may, with the consent of the House, be to this extent varied, that when an Amendment is on the Paper a sub-Amendment to that Amendment may be put. I see the difficulty that the noble and learned Lord is in in moving a different Amendment to that on the Paper, and I would ask if possible to move to add to the Lord Chancellor's Amendment, which is now on the Paper, the words "who so desire," which I think cover the matter. It is perfectly simple and comprehensive, and it is congruous with the Amendment of the noble and learned Lord. I notice that no Amendment has actually been put, and so the Amendment now on the Paper in the name of the noble and learned Lord may be moved, and if it is, then I would move to add these words at the end of it.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, I am not acquainted with the rules of the House, nor am I disposed to quarrel with my noble friend Lord Rankeillour, but I hope he will not press his wish to add this Amendment in his name, and for this reason. I have taken considerable interest in Clause 16. I called the attention of the Lord Chancellor to the surroundings of the word "publication,"

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  and he has very kindly put down this Amendment, which I have come to the conclusion meets my point and the point of those who agree with me.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND): My Lords, may I call the attention of the House to the fact that, as I understand it, no Motion is before the House?
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I may have been wrong, but I thought that, having regard to the fact that there might be some question raised before the Amendment was moved, I ought to abstain from putting the Question for the moment. I dare say I was wrong, because I have not sufficient knowledge of these matters, but I will put the Amendment which I am intending to move. The Question is: In the Schedule, page 33, line 24, leave out "publication" and insert "the circulation to holders of units."
  LORD MANCROFT: I perhaps did not make it clear that I was rising to a point of Order. I did not think it was fair to put the Amendment to us in view of the fact that the manuscript Amendment of Lord Rankeillour was not known to us and it will take two or three days to consider.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Perhaps I may be allowed to read the Rule, which is perhaps not familiar to all of your Lordships. It is in these terms. It is Rule XXXVII. "Proceedings on Bills":
  "No Amendment shall be moved upon the Third Reading of any Public Bill unless notice of moving the same be given to the Clerk not later than the day preceding that on which the Amendment is to be moved in sufficient time to enable the Amendment to be printed and circulated to members of the House in the form in which it is proposed to move."
  That Rule would be observed by moving the Amendment as it stands in the name of Lord Templemore and myself, to which Lord Rankeillour proposes to add certain words. May I say this to Lord Rankeillour, that I understand there will be no difficulty in another place, if that other place thinks proper, in adding the words which he has put down in the Amendment which is too late for consideration according to the Rule?
  LORD RANKEILLOUR: My Lords, on a point of Order. I was quite aware of
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  the text of that Rule, but I understood from inquiry that it was not held to apply to a sub-Amendment to an Amendment already on the Paper. I did give notice to the Clerk of Parliaments yesterday, but unfortunately it was too late, in the circumstance of the early rising of the House, to get it printed. When my noble friend Lord Mancroft says he will require two or three days to digest the simple words "who so desire," I think he is belittling his own abilities very much. The point is this. As the Amendment stands, it would involve the circulation of an enormous number of documents. I was told a day or two ago that in one case the number would be 11,000. I have been told since then by the manager of several trusts, that in their case it will involve the circulation of 80,000. Surely that is a great waste when a large number of the unit holders would certainly consign those documents to the wastepaper basket. My Amendment does provide that if any unit holder wishes to know, he has only to write a post card and get it not once but all the time. I venture to think that that is a very simple proposition, and as I understand there is a precedent for such a sub-Amendment, I beg to be allowed—it may be by leave of the House—to move it.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, if it is suggested that a manuscript Amendment can be handed in on Third Reading—I do not say it has never been done; it was done ten or fifteen years ago, but only under very strong protest—I would like to remind you that on that occasion it was said that, although departure from the practice might in that case be sanctioned, for very special purpose, in future your Lordships would be very careful before you departed from the practice, which has been I think the rule of the House for many years, of not admitting manuscript Amendments on Third Reading. I do not know what the exact procedure should be, because it has only occurred to me at this moment, but possibly your Lordships might consider adjourning the debate. The Amendment could then appear on the Paper, and your Lordships could discuss it when you had had the opportunity of seeing what the proposal was. I do not think that this matter is one which would bring a

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  large number of members together to discuss it on a future occasion, but an important precedent is involved. The principle of not allowing an Amendment to go forward on the Third Reading unless it is on the Paper, seems to me to be one which should be very carefully observed, and not departed from except in some special circumstances.
  LORD RANKEILLOUR: I need hardly say that I am only too glad to accede to the view of the Lord Chairman.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I will put the Question. It is: In the Schedule, at page 33, line 24, leave out "publication" and insert "the circulation to holders of units."
  Amendment moved—
  Page 33, line 24, leave out ("publication") and insert ("the circulation to holders of units")—(The Lord Chancellor).
  THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, in view of the discussion which has just taken place, I would like to move that the debate be adjourned. There will then be time to have the Amendment put down on the Paper, and it can be discussed when the Amendment is before us all. I beg to move.
  Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I do not know whether your Lordships have realised that that may involve a delay in passing the Bill into law.
  LORD MANCROFT: My Lords, this Amendment, if thought proper by the noble Lord, Lord Rankeillour, could easily be inserted in the Commons and, if agreed to, could then come back here. I think that would be the best course, because the Amendment now on the Paper is one that meets the views of most of us, whereas the amending Amendment would in some sense nullify it.
  On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly.

DEER AND GROUND GAME (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order): Amendments (Privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF LISTOWEL: My Lords, I beg to move the Motion that stands in my name on the Paper.
Moved, That a Committee of seven Lords be appointed to join with a Committee of the House of Commons to consider the said Bill. That the Lords following be named of the Committee:

E. Minto,

L. Hare (E. Listowel),

L. Dorchester,

L. Greenway,

L. Amulree,

L. Dickinson,

L. Kenilworth:

That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the House of Commons in the appointment of a Chairman.—(The Earl of Listowel.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith, and to request them to appoint seven Members to be joined with the said Committee, and to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room No. 4, House of Lords, on Tuesday, the 9th of May next, at eleven o'clock.

THE EASTER RECESS.
LORD SNELL: My Lords, I beg to ask the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for India if he is now in a position to say when the House will reassemble after Easter.
THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND: My Lords, in reply to the noble Lord's question, we propose that your Lordships should reassemble after Easter on Tuesday, April 18. Provision will, however, be made for an earlier meeting should circumstances so require. On April 18 we propose to take the Second Reading of the Army and Air Force (Annual) Bill, which it is necessary should receive the Royal Assent by the end of the present month.
House adjourned at sixteen minutes before five o'clock.