Lords Sitting of 21 March 1938

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
LAND TAX COMMISSIONERS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
NORTH-WEST MIDLANDS JOINT ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
PAISLEY CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Title:
An Act to make further provision for securing the renting and exhibition of a certain proportion of British cinematograph films, and for restricting blind booking and advance booking of cinematograph films; to make provision as to the wages and conditions of employment of persons employed by makers and processors of films; and to provide for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved to leave out "and processors." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment was arranged by my noble friend after some observations of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Strabolgi) on the Committee stage. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Line 7, leave out ("and processors.")—(Lord Templemore.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, might I draw the Minister's attention to the consequential Amendment which he has tabled, which I think goes rather far? Before we alter the Title perhaps I may be allowed on this Amendment very briefly to discuss what the Government
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propose to do. I was responsible first of all for widening a clause to include processing as well as making of films, the idea being to bring in the workmen and technicians in the laboratories. The noble Lord, Lord Templemore, explained on the Committee stage that that went rather far because it might bring in people who did ordinary photographic work in the laboratories and so on, and it was not the intention of the Bill to legislate for them. I quite understand that, and therefore I was prepared to drop "and processing." If your Lordships agreed to alter the Title, it would then be in order to carry the Amendment in Clause 43, on page 43, line 17, and there I think that the Government have rather sought to narrow the meaning of the words "the making of a film" beyond what I understood to be the case. I do not know whether it would be convenient to discuss this now, or when we reach page 43, line 17. I do not want to lose my rights by agreeing to this alteration of the Title now.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (VISCOUNT SWINTON): My Lords, probably it would be convenient to take the Amendment to the Title now, and I shall be glad to give an explanation when we come to Clause 43, but I do not think the noble Lord need be under any anxiety in that matter. The object of the Amendment which is being moved to Clause 43 is to define what is meant by making a film. That has, of course, reference to the costs of making a film, and the only object of the Amendment with regard to Clause 43 is to make it plain that by "making" a film we regard a film as finished when the original negative is ready for delivery to the renters. It is in order to cut out purely repetitive processes like making positive prints for exhibition purposes or the production of new negatives made by copying, which have nothing to do with the work of processing. It is merely in order to make sure that we have a definition by which the making of a film includes those things which we intend it should include, and excludes those things which, by common consent, we desire excluded.
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, it might therefore be better to wait until we come to that Amendment. In the meantime, I have no further observations to make on this one.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, before "films," where that word last occurs, to insert "cinematograph." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Line 7, after ("of") insert ("cinematograph.")—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1:
Determination of renters' quotas for period beginning 1st April, 1938, and ending 31 st March, 1948.
(4) The power conferred by the last preceding subsection to lay in draft before Parliament and to make an order shall be construed as including a power, exercisable in the like manner and subject to the like conditions, to lay in draft before Parliament and to make an order varying or revoking an order having effect by virtue of that subsection.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the Amendment to insert "or" in subsection (3) is simply a drafting Amendment to make it clear that paragraphs (a) and (b) of that subsection are alternatives. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 36, at end, insert ("or").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, at the end of subsection (4), to insert:
"Provided that an order varying or revoking such an order as aforesaid shall not have effect in relation to any period prior to the first day of April next following the date on which the order is made."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, subsection (4) of Clause 1 empowers the Board of Trade, after consulting the Films Council, to lay before Parliament the draft of an order varying or revoking a previous order modifying the degree to which the treble-quota provision can be applied. This Amendment provides that such a varying or revoking order shall not have effect earlier than the 1st April following the date on which it is made. This will ensure that the trade interests concerned and particularly the renters will have ample notice of any change which such an order would effect. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, at end insert the said new proviso.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3 [Special provisions with respect to British films rented in foreign countries]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved to insert after subsection (3):
"(4) If, and to the extent that, Section one of this Act has effect subject to the modification made therein by an order containing such a direction as is authorised by paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of that section, this section shall have effect as if in subsection (1) of this section for the words 'doubled or trebled for the purpose of renters' quota' there were substituted the words 'doubled for the purpose of renters' quota or capable of being doubled under this section,' and as if in subsection (2) of this section for the words 'trebled for the purpose of renters' quota' there were substituted the words 'capable of being doubled under this section'."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on the Amendment made in Committee to Clause 1. It is designed to make it clear that if the concessions on treble-quota films as at present embodied in Clause 1 are withdrawn, the position of such films under Clause 3 will not be affected for purposes of reciprocity. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 14, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MOYNE LORD MOYNE moved, after Clause 14, to insert the following new clause:
"—.(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section the Board of Trade, after consulting the Cinematograph Films Council and considering its advice in the matter may, not later than the end of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, lay before Parliament the draft of an order reducing in relation to long films the proportion prescribed in Part II of the First Schedule to this Act for the year beginning with the first day of October, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, and if before the end of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, each House of Parliament has resolved that the order be made, the Board of Trade shall forthwith make the order in terms of the draft and the order shall come into operation upon the making thereof.
(2) Subject to the provisions of the next following subsection the Board of Trade, after consulting the Cinematograph Films Council and considering its advice in the matter, may at any time during the year nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, lay before Parliament the draft of an order reducing in relation to long films the proportion prescribed by Part I of the First Schedule to this Act for the year beginning with the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight, and the next succeeding year, and if before the end of the calendar year in which the draft of such an order is laid before Parliament each House

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of Parliament has resolved that the order be made, the Board shall forthwith make the order in terms of the draft, and the order shall come into operation upon the making thereof.
(3) This section shall not authorise the making of an order—

(i) reducing the proportion prescribed by Part I of the First Schedule to this Act to a proportion being, in relation to long films, less than fifteen per cent., or

(ii) reducing the proportion prescribed by Part II of the said Schedule to a proportion being, in relation to long films, less than twelve-and-a-half per cent.

(4) As from the coming into operation of an order under this section altering any of the proportions prescribed by the First Schedule of this Act, that Schedule shall have effect as if it prescribed, instead of that proportion, the proportion substituted therefor by the order.
(5) In this section the expression 'calendar year' means year beginning with the first day of January."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new clause is consequential to Amendments made during the Committee stage. Clause 15 gives to the Board of Trade, on the advice of the Advisory Committee, the power of varying up and down in case experience proves that renters and exhibitors are not able to carry out the full quota. In the Schedule last week we raised the initial renters' quota by five per cent. and the exhibitors' quota by two-and-a-half per cent., and, though I believe it is quite practicable for these requirements to be carried out, it would seem desirable that the general machinery of the Bill should be followed and that there should be provided a means of varying the quota, omitting it if necessary during the first year, just as Clause 15 allows it to be varied in the subsequent years. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 54, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Moyne.)
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend for putting down this Amendment, because I wanted to have an opportunity of considering with the Board of Trade whether an Amendment of this kind ought to be inserted. My noble friend was good enough on the Committee stage to agree not to move it until the House had taken a decision on the Schedule as to the amount of the quota. This clause is in the nature of what in treaties is called an "escape clause," and it is intended to provide that if the optimism of my
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noble friend in persuading the Committee to increase the quota were found to be excessive or unjustified, there then would be a way of escape for renters or exhibitors who could not fulfil their quota requirements. I am entirely in agreement with the desirability of there being a means of relieving both renters and exhibitors of obligations which experience might show it was beyond their power to carry out; but after careful consideration the Government have come to the conclusion that this clause really would not do that, and that the power on which reliance must be placed is the general power in the hands of the Board of Trade to excuse either renters or exhibitors, in appropriate cases, from fulfilling to the full their obligations.
I am sure my noble friend will see that that is the only way in which that power could reasonably be exercised. He said, with perfect truth, that there was a power already in the Bill for the Board of Trade to make an order either raising or lowering the quota after close consultation with the Films Council, and that that would be based on experience. But my noble friend will observe that wherever such an order is made—and indeed it is of the essence of that procedure—the order of the Board of Trade varying the quota for a future year shall be made before the year begins. That is a very necessary provision because it is most desirable that both renters and exhibitors should have certainty as to what their obligations are. If we accepted my noble friend's clause that possibly could not operate with rapidity. The period during which it is to operate is the year beginning on the 1st April next when these new obligations under the new Act start. If we adopted the procedure of my noble friend's clause it might easily be possible that you could not decide until the exhibitors' quota had been running for ten months whether the exhibitors would be relieved or not, and, equally, the renters' quota might have been running for nine months before a decision was taken as to whether they were to be relieved. I am sure my noble friend would agree that a relief of that kind would be entirely illusory. The exhibitors, of course, would have filled their book long before the time of relief came, and the relief would only come to them too late to be of any value. In those circumstances I am sure my noble friend will

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agree that the only practical way of doing what he wants to do, and what I agree ought to be done, is to rest upon the discretionary power of the Board of Track to relieve renters and exhibitors in appropriate cases. In view of the explanation I am sure my noble friend will feel it right to withdraw this Amendment.
LORD MOYNE: I think there is a great deal in what the noble Viscount says, and I shall be glad to withdraw the Amendment.
LORD STRABOLGI: Before it is withdrawn I want, if I may, to ask the noble Viscount to explain one point. I take it, as I see no Amendments on the Paper at this stage of the Bill, that he intends to abide by the decision of the House a week ago, and that the Government are not seeking to put back the Bill where it was. When I saw the Amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Moyne, circulated with my Parliamentary Papers I thought that Lord Moyne was trying to soften the blow a little, and probably had had consultations through the usual channels with the Board of Trade. Now that he is going to withdraw his Amendment I do not feel quite so happy. I thought it was a kind of compromise.
LORD MOYNE: No, it is nothing of that sort.
LORD STRABOLGI: In that case perhaps it is not improper for me to ask the noble Viscount if he is quite satisfied as things stand in view of the powers which he has reminded your Lordships that the Government have.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: With permission of the House, I will reply, though I am always learning the truth of the saying that there are indeed no rules of order in your Lordships' House. As regards this clause I am quite satisfied, and I think the House is, that the proper procedure in order to give relief is not this, which could not operate in time, but the provisions already in the Bill giving the power to the Board of Trade. No Amendment is required to those provisions, because they are in perfectly, general terms, to give relief wherever relief is called for. The noble Lord will have seen that there is no Amendment on the Paper in my name for the purpose of inviting the House to rescind a decision which it took on the Committee stage. I think it would be both out of order and improper for me
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to anticipate what might hereafter happen in another place. Over that we have no jurisdiction, and I can only invite my noble friend to possess his soul in patience and await whatever may be the result of another place considering such Amendments as your Lordships may have thought it wise to make.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 15 [Power of Board of Trade to alter quotas by order]:
LORD MOYNE LORD MOYNE had given Notice of Amendments, in subsection (3), to alter the limits in paragraph (i) in relation to short films from "ten per cent." and "twenty per cent." to "fifteen per cent." and "thirty per cent." respectively, and to substitute for the limits in paragraph (ii) in relation to short films "twelve-and-a-half per cent." and "thirty per cent." in place of "seven-and-a-half per cent." and "twenty per cent." The noble Lord said: My Lords, these Amendments are really made necessary only if we succeed in persuading the Government to amend the Schedule. They are consequential on the Schedule, and I think, therefore, it would be more convenient if I did not move them at this stage but hold them over until the Third Reading in case at that stage the Schedule stands in a different form.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: I entirely agree. I think that would be the convenient course.
Clause 23:
Applications for registration, and information to be furnished in connection therewith.
23.—(1) Every application for the registration of a film shall be made by the maker of the film or, if the film has been acquired by a renter for distribution in Great Britain, be made by the renter, and shall be accompanied by the prescribed fee.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, the Amendment down in my name on this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 5, after ("made") insert ("either").—(Viscount Swinton.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "if the film has been acquired by a renter" and insert "by a renter who has acquired it" The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to give effect to the

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original intention of the clause that either the maker or a renter who had acquired the film for distribution in Great Britain could register it, as at present provided in the Act of 1927. As drafted the maker would not have the right to register the film if the rights of distribution in this country had already been acquired by a renter. It often happens that the United Kingdom distribution rights are acquired by a renter before the film is made, and if in such circumstances only the renter could register it the maker would have no control under the Bill over its use for quota purposes here, and might, therefore, be unable to dispose of the reciprocity rights under Clause 3.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 5, leave out from ("or") to ("for") in line 6 and insert ("by a renter who has acquired it").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the next Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 7, leave out ("be made by the renter").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25 [Conditions governing registration of British films as quota films]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved to insert at the end of the clause:
"(7) If, and to the extent that, Section one of this Act has effect subject to the modification made therein by an order containing such a direction as is authorised by paragraph (a) of subsection (3) of that section, subsection (6) of this section shall have effect as if in that subsection for the words 'trebled for the purpose of renters' quota' there were substituted the words 'capable of being doubled under Section three of this Act.'"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 36, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 33 [Wages and conditions of employment of persons employed by makers and processors of films]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the first Amendment to this clause is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 22, leave out ("or processor").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, the next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 32, line 23, after ("of") insert ("cinematograph").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39:
Regulations of Board of Trade.
39.—(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section, the Board of Trade may make regulations prescribing anything which by this Act is required or authorised to be prescribed, and may make regulations prescribing—

(a) the form of applications for the registration of films,

(b) the particulars and evidence necessary for satisfying the Board that a film is a British film, and

(c) the form of the returns to be made, and the record books to be kept, under this Act;

and also regulations providing that any statutory declaration which a person is required by this Act to make shall be deemed to be properly made if it is made on his behalf by any such person as may be specified in the regulations, but no such regulations prescribing the payment of fees shall be of any effect unless those regulations have been made with the consent of the Treasury.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, at the end of paragraph (a) of subsection (1), after "films," to insert "or for licences under this Act." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is necessary to enable the Board of Trade to prescribe in regulations the form in which applications for renters' and exhibitors' licences shall be made.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 17, after ("films") insert ("or for licences under this Act").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in paragraph (b) of subsection (1), after "British film," to insert "or is a film which ought to be registered under Part III of this Act as a renters' quota film." The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Amendments made to Clause 25 in the Committee stage in another place provide in subsection (2) that a British film in order to qualify for registration as a renters' quota film must

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satisfy certain additional conditions. For example, the studio scenes must have been made in the United Kingdom and at least one-half of the wages paid to British subjects must have been paid to persons normally resident in the United Kingdom. The consequential Amendment now moved is accordingly necessary to enable the Board of Trade to make regulations prescribing the evidence necessary to establish the right of a British film to registration for the renters' quota.
Amendment moved—
Page 37, line 19, at end insert ("or is a film which ought to be registered under Part III of this Act as a renters' quota film").(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40:
The Cinematograph Films Council.
40.—(1) There shall be a Council to be called "the Cinematograph Films Council," consisting of twenty-one members appointed by the Board of Trade; and of the members of the said Council—
(b) two shall be persons appointed as representing makers of films;
(e) two shall be persons appointed as representing persons employed by makers of films.
(2) It shall be the duty of the Board of Trade to satisfy themselves, with respect to any person whom they propose to appoint under paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection to be a member of the said Council or who is a member of the Council by virtue of an appointment made under that paragraph, that he will have or has, as the case may be, no such financial or commercial interest as is likely to affect him in the discharge of his functions as a member of the Council; and any such person shall, whenever requested by the Board so to do, furnish to them such information as they consider necessary for the performance of their duty under this subsection.
Before appointing a person to be a representative member of the said Council the Board of Trade shall consult such bodies, if any, as appear to the Board to be representative of the interest concerned.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1) (b) after "of," to insert "British." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this seems to me a reasonable proposition because on this enormous Council—as big as the Cabinet—foreign interests will be represented sufficiently by renters and exhibitors.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 9, after ("of") insert ("British").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am prepared to accept this Amendment and the next on this understanding. It is the intention of the Board of Trade, in appointing two persons to be representatives of the makers of films, that those persons shall be representatives of the makers of British films. Of course a film made in this country by a British registered company, which conforms in the amount of labour and costs and so on to the provisions of the Bill, is a British film, no matter how the capital of the company is held. If this Amendment is inserted, what I understand would be intended by it is that the President of the Board of Trade, in appointing representatives of film makers, should as far as possible satisfy himself that the people he appoints do stand for companies which are not only British companies in the sense of being British registered companies but companies of which the capital is British. My noble friend will appreciate that it is not always possible to find out with certainty exactly how the capital of a company is owned. I accept the Amendment in that spirit, and the President of the Board of Trade will carry it out as well as he can.
Perhaps it would save time if I might be allowed to anticipate the next Amendment which I understand is intended in the same way to provide that the representatives of labour on the Council shall be persons employed by makers of British films. Of course the unions representing the workpeople in the industry who are consulted will be representatives of all the workpeople, whether working under a British controlled or foreign controlled company. Therefore, while I agree to accept the second Amendment, of course the union or other appropriate organisation to be consulted will be one which covers the industry as a whole. I thought it only fair to make those observations in order that there should be no misunderstanding.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I am very much obliged to my noble friend. I quite understand the difficulties, and I hope they may be overcome.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I beg to move the next Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 15, after ("of") insert ("British").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had on the Paper an Amendment to insert at the end of subsection (2):
"Provided always that no person who,

(i) has been convicted of an offence under the Act of 1927 or this Act; or

(ii) being a director, manager, secretary or other officer of a body corporate which has been found guilty of an offence under the said Acts, was a party to such offence; or

(iii) being concerned in the management of the business of any person convicted of an offence in respect of such business under the said Acts, was a party to such offence;

shall be eligible for appointment to the said Council, or may continue to act as a member of the said Council without the written authority of the Board of Trade."
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I purposely hesitated before rising to move this Amendment, in the hope that my noble friend would think it so reasonable that he would accept it. It is a difficult matter to handle with delicacy.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, as my noble friend invites me to anticipate him I will gladly do so. I am prepared to accept paragraph (i) of his Amendment but I am not prepared to accept paragraphs (ii) and (iii), not because I quarrel in the least with my noble friend as to his intention, but because I think a provision in that form would be wholly inoperative. The only way in which you can decide whether somebody has been a party to an offence is by prosecuting that person and getting him convicted. Hitherto there has been no power to prosecute anybody other than the company or, if the exhibitor or renter or whoever it is should be an individual, to prosecute that individual. If my noble friend looks at Clause 38 of the Bill, he will see that that contains a provision designed, I think, exactly to meet the mischief which he has in mind. His object is to see that in a case where there has been clear negligence or impropriety by an officer or officers of the company, not merely shall the company be prosecuted but the individuals themselves. As I say, the only way you can decide whether a person is a party to an offence is by getting him convicted.
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If my noble friend looks at Clause 38 he will see that it provides:
"Where a body corporate is guilty of an offence under this Act, and it is proved that the offence occurred with the consent or connivance of, or was attributable to any neglect"—
it is very wide—
"on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other officer of the body corporate, he, as well as the body corporate, shall be deemed to be guilty of that offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."
The President of the Board of Trade, with whom rests the duty of prosecuting in these cases, had that clause inserted with the deliberate purpose of being able to prosecute not only a body corporate but individual officers if there was a good case of consent or connivance or neglect. It would therefore follow that if there was a good case the officer or director of the company would be proceeded against, and if the Court held that he was guilty of connivance or neglect he would be convicted as well as the body corporate, and therefore would come within the first paragraph of my noble friend's Amendment. That indeed is the only way in which he could be brought within it. I accept also the words at the end of my noble friend's Amendment:
"shall be eligible for appointment to the said Council, or may continue to act as a member of the said Council without the written authority of the Board of Trade."
Therefore, if my noble friend would withdraw the paragraphs (ii) and (iii) in his draft, I would accept the other words of his Amendment, and would also do this. The draftsmen have not been able completely to look at the wording in order to make a perfect draftsman's job of it, and if they should find that more appropriate words are suitable to give effect to the intention, then I will undertake to put down an Amendment on Third Reading to carry it out in an appropriate way. But I think it would be right, as it is the intention to accept this in principle, that I should accept the Amendment in the form which I have indicated now.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I am again very much obliged to my noble friend. His argument seems to me to be quite watertight, and I agree to the terms which he has put forward, and beg to move my Amendment in the form he has indicated.
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 32, at end insert:
("Provided always that no person who has been convicted of an offence under the Act of 1927 or this Act shall be eligible for appointment to the said Council, or may continue to act as a member of the said Council without the written authority of the Board of Trade").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 43:
Interpretation.
43.—(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them, that is to say:—
"maker" in relation to a film, means the person by whom the arrangements necessary for the production of the film are undertaken:
"trade-shown," in relation to a film, means—

(a) displayed within the administrative county of London to exhibitors or their agents in a building, and under conditions, allowing for the satisfactory viewing of the film after announcement to such persons at least seven days before the display, the display not being open to any member of the public on payment, or

(b) displayed to exhibitors or their agents on one occasion on which the film is exhibited to the public at a theatre in Great Britain during the first three consecutive days on which the film is so exhibited.

LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), in the definition of "maker," to leave out "production" and insert "making." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is purely a drafting Amendment. It is consequent on the definition of "making" which is proposed to be inserted in the Bill in Clause 43.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 12, leave out ("production") and insert ("making").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH)LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH) moved to insert:
"'Payable,' in relation to labour costs, means becoming payable in the future in accordance with the terms of a written contract."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, under the provisions of this Bill certain substantial and valuable advantages are provided to the owners of films in the production of which there have been em-
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ployed the requisite number of British subjects. The test is on a pecuniary basis. The Bill says:
"not less than the requisite amount of labour costs represents payments paid or payable in respect of the labour or services of British subjects or persons domiciled in some part of His Majesty's Dominions."
"Paid or payable" is the point. Your Lordships will see that the test to be applied is whether the maker has come under the obligation to pay an adequate sum, not whether he has discharged that obligation at all. Your Lordships may well realise that a rather important matter arises there. In this industry, in the early days through which it is still going, there has been a great deal of unsatisfactory finance, and considerable numbers of people have never been paid at all, but promoters have employed their employees with no intention of paying them whatsoever. I have some difficulty in realising the equity of extending to persons who do not pay their workpeople the advantages of this Bill.
It is simply giving an advantage to what is little more than a swindle. To prevent that, one would have liked to say that it must be a condition that these debts must be paid, but there are various reasons why that could not be so. My noble friend Lord Strabolgi pointed out to me one of the cases, the co-operative film, and several other people have pointed others out to me. There are cases where the employees look, not to an immediate payment, but only to have their payments discharged out of the proceeds of the film, which can only accrue after the film has in fact been registered. In those circumstances the most effective way was, I thought, to make use of the Amendment here, which says:
"'Payable,' in relation to labour costs, means becoming payable in the future in accordance with the terms of a written contract."
The result of that Amendment is that no obligation upon which there has already been a definite default shall count in estimating the amount of the requisite labour costs, and any obligation to pay in futuro must be evidenced by a contract in writing.
The advantage of that provision is not a small one in an industry like this, where a great deal is done verbally and in which there is no contract at all. I

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think that no one will contend that this Amendment goes too far or is unworkable. In my submission it is necessary, unless you are to arrive at the grotesque spectacle of the Board of Trade investigating the accounts of a film and deciding that it is its duty to extend the privilege afforded by registration as a British film on the ground that an adequate number of His Majesty's subjects have been defrauded to an adequate degree.
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 12, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Darcy (de Knayth)).
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, while I sympathise with the noble Lord's desire that people should pay their just debts, and particularly to their workpeople, I am sure that he will see that the Amendment he proposes would really not be at all appropriate to deal with the mischief that he has described. If we are to legislate to make people pay their debts in other manners than are already provided by legislation, I venture to suggest that we must do that in an appropriate manner in an appropriate Act. The only effect of putting in this proposal which my noble friend has made would be to prevent a number of thoroughly honest people, who had every intention of carrying out their contracts, from obtaining the benefits of this Act. My noble friend will see, if he looks at Clause 43, page 40, line 28, that—
"'Labour costs,' in relation to a film, means the total amount of the payments paid or payable by the maker of the film in respect of the labour or services—"
and so on. The word "payable" includes, as indeed I think it must properly include, all payments due in the future in respect of labour whether under a written contract or not. The payment might quite well be a percentage of profits—for example, from exhibition of films—as well as a payment already due.
If you insert the words which the noble Lord desires to insert here, you would exclude from the genuine labour costs of the film payments already due but not actually made. You would also exclude payments due in the future but not covered by a written contract. I do not imagine that my noble friend, in his ordinary labour transactions, always has a written contract with everybody he employs to do a particular job for him; but
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he would think it very unjust if he found that a number of people whom he had engaged to do a job and had every intention of paying—and I am quite sure he would pay—were suddenly, the moment the proper payment became due to them, cut out because he had not entered into a contract in writing. I think, therefore, he will agree with me that in this defining of what labour costs should count for the Bill, we must take into account the labour costs which have already been paid, or for which payment is due. If it were indeed right to provide for special provisions under which employees were to be able to recover from recalcitrant employers we must do that in some other Bill, but not in a Bill of this kind. I hope the noble Lord will not press this Amendment.
LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH): As a result of what my noble friend has said I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), in paragraph (b) of the definition of "trade-shown," to substitute "four" for "three." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to give greater latitude to the maker or renter with regard to the holding of a trade show under the second alternative type of trade show described as (b) in the clause. It has been represented to the Board that in the case where the first day of a pre-release of a film falls on a Friday, it might be very inconvenient or undesirable that either the Saturday or the Sunday should be the day of the trade show. The extension of the period from three to four days will enable the trade show in such cases to be held on the Monday.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 41, leave out ("three") and insert ("four").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in subsection (1), to add to the definition of "trade-shown" the words "the display taking place after announcement to such persons at least seven days before the display." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to ensure that exhibitors always have seven days' notice, in the case of the second alternative form of trade show, of the precise date of the trade show. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 42, at end insert ("the display taking place after announcement to such persons at least seven days before the display").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD TEMPLEMORE LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, after subsection (4), to insert:
"(5) For the purposes of this Act, the making of a film shall he deemed not to include the production of blank film or of positives, or the production of negatives by means of any process used for making copies of negatives.
In this subsection the expressions 'blank film', 'positives' and 'negatives' have the same meanings respectively as in Section three of the Finance Act, 1925."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this new subsection aims at defining, as far as may be, what is meant by the "making" of a cinematograph film. The definition excludes from the making of a film the production of the blank sensitised film on which the photographs are taken (which, of course, is purchased from a maker of sensitised cinematograph film), the production of positive prints for exhibition purposes, or the production of new negatives by any copying process from the original negative. In other words, the making of a film is regarded as finished when the original negative is ready for delivery to a renter.
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 17, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(Lord Templemore.)
LORD STRABOLGI: My Lords, I am not sure that this Amendment does not go rather beyond what was originally intended in the Amendment which I moved and which the Government accepted. When I tabled the Amendment it was represented to me that "maker of film" was rather a vague term, and might not necessarily include the laboratory worker. On the Committee stage Lord Templemore was good enough to explain that where a laboratory was owned by a studio, as was often the case, the workers in that laboratory would be covered by the expression "maker of film," but that outside laboratories could not very well be included. Now we have this new subsection (5) as printed. I have taken advice about this, and if I may I will read what the general secretary of the trade union that covers these laboratory workers has to say about it.
He says this:
"The incorporation of the additional paragraphs in the Bill would, in effect, mean the
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exclusion from the fair wages clause of laboratory workers. The Amendment refers to definitions incorporated in the Finance Act. 1925, which are as follows: Blank Film—One on which no picture has been impressed, known as raw film of stock. Positive—Films containing a picture for exhibition whether for exhibition or not. Negative—Films containing a photograph whether developed or not from which positives can be printed. The work done in a laboratory consists of developing the negative that has been photographed in the studio and then taking positive prints from the developed negative; this constitutes the positive prints that are exhibited in the cinemas."
I must here break off to express my regrets to noble Lords in charge of the Bill for not sending them notice of this, but I only received it just before the sitting of the House this afternoon, and I had not time to advise them about it. The letter continues:
"In addition, other essential laboratory operations include the making of 'duplicate' negatives for obtaining 'mixing' and 'wiping' effects (i.e. dissolving one scene into another), and we feel that under the terms of this Amendment the people who are engaged in these essential processes of filmmaking would be excluded from the fair wages clause.
"The only part of the Amendment to which we have no real objection is the deletion from the Bill of persons engaged in making blank film as this work is not done in a processing laboratory."
That is the view of the workers themselves, whom I am sure the noble Viscount and his friends want to protect.
They think that this Amendment goes too far, and that it excludes practically all the laboratory workers. I agree with them. I believe I am right in saying—the noble Lord on the other side has great experience of this laboratory work—that the laboratory owners themselves would welcome some standard of fair wages. There is great competition, and tremendous price-cutting, and they themselves, I understand, would welcome some sort of basis and would therefore welcome a fair-wages clause. I am further informed that these highly-skilled, chemical workers are suffering from this depression very severely, and are receiving less wages than men of their skill and attainments should be able to look for. I am sure it is not the intention of Parliament and of the Government to exclude these people from the benefits of the Bill. I do not ask the Government to alter their Amendment at the moment, but if I send them the communications that I have received, and they will further consider the matter,

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something may be done on the Third Reading, so as to carry out the intentions expressed by Lord Templemore during the Committee stage—namely, to protect workers in laboratories owned by studios.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I am sure the Department will be glad to receive any documents sent to them by the noble Lord, and if there is any Amendment which ought properly to be inserted on the Third Reading I will undertake to see that a suitable Amendment goes down. I rather think the noble Lord is at cross purposes on this. There is no doubt that what was intended to be included in what the noble Lord calls a fair-wage clause was a provision that there should be fair wages in the cinematograph-making industry. This definition covers much more than that. It is what is the making of films for the whole of the purposes of this Act—namely, what is to be counted when you come to assess the labour costs for the purpose of what I call the means test of this Bill. The object of putting in this provision here is to show that there is not included in the making of the film activities which are not really part of the cinematograph industry, in the sense of the cinematograph industry of making British films in this country.
For instance, we do intend to include the production of the blank sensitised film on which photographs are produced, and which is purchased from the makers of sensitised cinematograph films, which is quite a separate industry. Now it is very necessary both for the purpose of assessing the cost properly and also for limiting, in the way which we all intend to limit, the fair wages provision in the cinematograph industry, that we should not step outside the industry of making films and get into the industry of making photographic paper. That really is the purpose of this—and also that we exclude from "making" a mere copying process by which a large number of positives are produced from the negative. I will look into the matter, but that clause was very carefully drafted, and so has this definition been. I feel pretty sure that, unless both the clause and this definition in the form in which it is put, are maintained, we might find we were travelling far outside what is the intention of either the noble Lord or myself. But perhaps he would be good enough to
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send to the President of the Board of Trade the document to which he refers.
LORD STRABOLGI: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount.
VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, whatever may be the necessity for defining labour costs, these Amendments as they are now drafted do in fact have the effect of excluding the laboratory workers from the fair-wage clause. It is a pity that any section of workers who could be got into a fair-wage clause should be out of it, more especially seeing that there is this tremendous price competition in the film industry—and here I am bound to agree with the noble Lord opposite—and that price competition, if continued, may sooner or later have a prejudicial effect on wages. But there is another point as well. Naturally the Government are anxious to draw the line somewhere. There are three places where you could draw that line. One is by the exclusion of all processors. In that case you may get some of the employees, where the producers do their own processing, in a fair-wage clause and some out. Or you could put in all the employees of the film producers, in which case you would have some processors in and some out. But the real line of demarcation is so to speak beyond the laboratories. The laboratories are not connected with the manufacturers of raw stock, they are very closely connected with the film producers. They depend entirely on what the film producers are doing, and do not depend on what the manufacturers of raw stock are doing. In some cases the actual developing of the original negative when taken by the camera is done by the laboratory, and not in the producers' organisation itself. Therefore, whether or not this is the right place or time to bring the laboratory workers into the fair-wage clause, I do hope that sooner or later it may be possible for the Government in this respect to draw the line so as to include the laboratory workers with the rest of the makers of films. I hope that the Government may not have said the last word on this matter.
VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to add one word. As I understand it—but I will be completely briefed on Third Reading—a laboratory worker who is working in a studio, the part of the organisation that makes a film, would be included in the

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making of the film and in the fair-wage clause. A laboratory worker working in some other industry which may provide material for the film would not be included, because he would not be a worker in the cinematograph industry; he would be a worker in the sensitised paper industry, or whatever it may be. But what I think my noble friend wants to be sure of is that a genuine laboratory worker in the studio industry would be included. As I understand it, that man is in fact included in this, but I will make quite sure what the position is before we come to the Third Reading.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule:

CINEMATOGRAPH FILMS BILL.
  FIRST SCHEDULE.
    PART I.

      RENTERS' QUOTAS.
      Year.

      Long Films. Per cent.

      Short Films. Per cent.

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1938

      20

      10

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1939

      20

      10

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1940

      22½

      12½

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1941

      22½

      12½

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1942

      25

      15

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1943

      25

      15

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1944

      27½

      17½

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1945

      27½

      17½

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1946

      30

      20

      For the year beginning with the 1st April 1947

      30

      20

  EXHIBITORS' QUOTAS.
  Year.

  Long Films. Per cent.

  Short Films. Per cent.

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1938

  15

  7½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1939

  15

  7½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1940

  17½

  7½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1941

  17½

  7½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1942

  20

  10

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1943

  20

  10

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1944

  22½

  12½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1945

  22½

  12½

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1946

  25

  15

  For the year beginning with the 1st October 1947

  25

  15

  LORD MOYNE LORD MOYNE and other noble Lords had given notice of Amendments in Part I to increase in each case by 5 the per centages for renters' quotas of short films, and of Amendments in Part II to increase the percentages for exhibitors' quotas for short films by 5 in each of the first two years and 7½ in each of the other years.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, on a point of order, I take it that it would be convenient if we dealt with the whole of these Amendments together—both the Amendments to the renters' and the Amendments to the exhibitors' quota. It is really impossible to treat them separately.
  LORD MOYNE: I think it would certainly be more convenient to consider the Schedule as a whole, as I have put down an Amendment to each of the figures.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD MAUGHAM): To Part I?
  LORD MOYNE: And Part II, because Part I deals with the renters and Part II with the exhibitors. On the last occasion when we discussed this Bill we dealt with the Schedule so far as it controlled the quota of long films—films of more than 3,000 feet. I purposely did not mention the case of short films, because that raised different problems from the long films and must be treated in rather a different way. I think, however, there is an even stronger case to strengthen the Schedules in the case of the short films than there is in the case of the long films. In the case of the long films by our decision last week we put back the commencing figure to what the quota has reached under the Act now expiring. Under that decision there may be a little inconvenience to exhibitors who, not having asked for it, were given big concessions by the Government, and may have made their forecast of requirements on that basis. I believe they can readjust their programmes, but it may cause them a certain amount of difficulty. In the case of short films, however, I do not believe that any difficulty of that kind will arise at all. For one thing the exhibitors' programmes only come into effect at the beginning of October, and these short films are not booked a long way ahead, and there ought to be no difficulty whatever in their complying with any reasonable quota that may be laid down in the Schedule.

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  Now, many of these short films are fiction films, and others are what are known as "documentary films." It always seems to me rather a confusing term. It was defined in the Select Committee as "the creative treatment of actuality." I may tell the House that they are not news films, and they are not educational films, but they are very valuable films from the informational point of view. They had a hard struggle at their establishment in this country, and they owe the success which they have reached very largely to the efforts of the Empire Marketing Board. They have in the wider national interest a very great value, because they have a strong British flavour, which it is one of the purposes of this legislation to increase in the screening of films. They are particularly valuable—not only the documentary, but the fictional short films—because, needing very little capital, they are the most fertile field for experiment. It is very easy for people with new ideas to enter into production in this way. They give not only an opportunity for experiment in new types of films, but for experiment on the technical side, and they are a very important means of training new personnel and giving employment. We in the Departmental Committee recommended that the films of less than 3,000 feet admissible to quota should be widened in their classification, and that, I am glad to say, the Government are doing. Formerly, certain types of films had to be of special exhibition value before they could count for quota, but that has been abolished, and practically all short films, except news films, advertisements, and educational films, will automatically be eligible for quota.
  The difficulty that has confronted these films has been cut-throat foreign competition. Mr. Rotha, who has got a very big experience in this matter, told the Departmental Committee:
  "The exhibitor does not book his short pictures with much care, perhaps, because American short pictures, distributed in this country, are often given away free of charge. We have to meet the case where an exhibitor might say, 'I have booked a long film from an American company, and with that one long film I am provided with six short films for nothing. Why should I take one of your documentary films for a fee?'"
  Another case was given to us by Mr. Grierson, who has a very large experience of making documentary films for
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  the Government and the Empire Marketing Board and the Post Office. He told us:
  "You have a very disastrous competition from the worst type of film."
  And he gave us a case of a man in Birmingham who was, as they say, "filling his book" of films, and asked his renter to find him the twenty-four worst short films he could, because he found bad short films were so very valuable for clearing his theatre for the next lot of people. It was suggested in evidence that we should copy certain foreign methods and compel exhibitors to show certain types of films, but we did not feel that that was a wise recommendation, and that it was much better to leave the exhibitor to give the films that his patrons want; to say that if he does, just for his own convenience, show short films, he should anyhow show a reasonable proportion which had been made in his own country.
  We had a good deal of evidence that the talk about a shortage was ill-founded. In the present state of the market, we were told, many of these short films are never entered for quota, and the apparent figures ought to be multiplied by three to get the true picture. Since that evidence, I am informed, the supply is still maintained; that last year, 1937, 562 foreign short films were registered for quota as against 211 British. That is nearly 30 per cent., and therefore a 15 per cent. quota on the renter and an even smaller quota on the exhibitor ought to occasion no inconvenience whatever. It must be remembered that these films are not required to anything like the extent of long films because of the prevailing habit of having two features in a programme, and under this arrangement these short films are pushed out. But there is certainly no difficulty in the matter of choice, and if only the exhibitors can be persuaded to book their films on merits, I feel sure that the public will very quickly respond and appreciate the excellent short films which can be made. We have, in these Amendments, suggested that the short film quota should begin on the renter at the very modest figure of 15 per cent., which is less than half of what could quite easily, I am sure, be supplied out of present resources. We have followed the example of the Government in the original draft of the Schedule by putting the exhibitors' quota only 2½ per cent. lower,

  277
  the reason for that being that there is already such a strong independent production of these short films that you do not need to have that wide margin between renters' quota and exhibitors' quota which the noble Viscount, Lord Swinton, suggested it was important to maintain in the case of long films.
  The exhibitors of films are by far the strongest section of the industry. We can all imagine their political power and the pressure they are able to exercise through their representatives in another place. I cannot help thinking it is because they are so powerful that their interests have prevailed over those of the producers. I do hope the noble Viscount will see his way to do more in this Bill for the producers than is done in the Bill as it stands. Naturally, the exhibitors like to get these films given away. Everybody likes to get something for nothing; but I do not think it is unreasonable, seeing that the purpose of this Bill is to encourage not only the production of British films, but the screening of films with a British flavour, that this small quota should be applied. If the Government will do that, I believe they will help the producers in what is really the most valuable and hopeful development which has so far taken place in the British film industry.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 46, Part 1, second column, line 7, leave out ("10") and insert ("15").—(Lord Moyne.)
  LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH): My Lords, after what has fallen from the lips of my noble friend Lord Moyne, I have little left to say. There was one matter he mentioned in reference to the question of British films available. I expect some of your Lordships have received a circular pointing out the numbers available, but there is an interesting point that if you take the figure given by my noble friend Lord Moyne of the number of British films actually registered for renters' quota during the calendar year 1937, the percentage works out at 17.474. It seems to me obvious that in these circumstances the renters' quota of 15 per cent. for next year is a modest one and can be easily dealt with. There are other reasons to be considered. The first thing to remember is that that 17.474 per cent. did not represent the whole case. There were ninety-two films registered. That
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  does not represent the whole of the films that could be registered under this Bill, because a great number of films did not count for quota at all which under this Bill will now count. I suggest that there is an ample amount to provide the renter with a selection.
  There is the further point that this is by no means all that can be produced. There is an ample supply of technicians if you will only give them outlet. I believe I am right in saying that of the technicians and specialists in the cinema industry—10,000 in all—there are nearly 8,000 out of employment at this date. I am not putting forward a plea ad misericordiam about that, but I think it is only right to realise the lack of employment that there is for them at this moment. Take the example of Pinewood alone. You find that people have gone out there, have provided themselves with houses there, because it is necessary for them to be available constantly at any time, and that employment has dropped to such an extent that those people have been reduced to the state of having to attend communal soup kitchens in order to keep going and in order to keep their children from starvation. My noble friend mentioned the fact that there was experimental use for these short films. I would also like to mention the fact that they are available also for a very important feature, and that is for the selection of fresh talent. Your Lordships may have heard of the name of Miss Deanna Durbin who has recently made such a sensation. She came into the cinema world first of all in a two-reel short film. I understand that the Producer who produced her on that occasion thought nothing of her, and terminated her contract. However, on another occasion, another person saw this film, and the result was that she was taken up. But it is fair to say that but for the fact of the short film that young lady would to-day be unknown to the public.
  There is one aspect which I cannot help feeling is more important than any other. Any one whose memory goes back to the last War will recollect the vital services that were performed for the country by the late Lord Northcliffe, and no one, I feel, will overlook the great importance in war of public opinion, nor the fact that the technique and the vehicles of public opinion have changed.

  279
  I am sure that the noble Viscount, who has done more for the defence of his country than any living man, will be the last to deny that there is a psychological element in defence without which any number of guns and bombers and fleets would be in vain. I am not thinking of the somewhat irresponsible statements that have been made in the last few days. I am not suggesting that we are on the verge of a war, or anything like it, but I think my noble friend will be the last to deny that a sound organisation for the production of short films is an essential element in any system of modern defence.
  I should like to ask your Lordships to consider what in fact this Amendment proposes. Your Lordships may take into account that there are different kinds of theatres. I will select two. There is the news-reel theatre, in which only short films are produced. In that theatre you have an hour's programme, ten minutes of which is a news reel which does not count for the purposes of this Bill or for the purpose of considering what will be exhibited under this Bill. You have to consider that 7½ per cent. of that fifty minutes next year, according to the Government Bill, is to be devoted to British films. That is not a very long time in an hour's programme. It is three and three-quarter minutes. Your Lordships will notice that in ten years, under the Government Bill, it will have grown to seven and a half minutes. Under the provisions of the Amendment of my noble friend, instead of three and three-quarter minutes we are asking for an extra two and a half at the beginning and an extra three and three-quarters at the end.
  But there is a much more serious point about this. The news-reel film is not the right test of what is going to happen. Your Lordships must consider the ordinary theatre where you have a three hours' programme, and a first and second feature picture. The first feature picture probably takes one hour and twenty-five minutes; the second an hour. There is then a news reel which takes ten minutes. That is two hours and twenty-five minutes in all and that leaves twenty-five minutes, of which 7½ per cent. is to be British picture. That is not a very large amount. It amounts to 112½ seconds. I state the time as 112½ seconds because that is an
  280
  easier figure to remember than 1.875 minutes. Under the Bill we are asking for an extra 75 seconds. Is that very extravagant? The maximum to which it rises under the Bill at the end of ten years is 225 seconds, or three and three-quarter minutes, and under the Amendment of my noble friend Lord Moyne it would only rise to just over five and a half minutes and under five and three-quarter minutes. I do not think that is excessive to ask for this industry which provides a nursery for talent, a nursery for art, a nursery for technique, the indispensable field for research and the real hope by which we can aspire to secure that forward bound which may put us ahead of others. What we are asking for in the next year is only 75 seconds. When I think of the needs of the Empire and of this country, and of the soup kitchens in Pinewood, I am astonished and amazed, not by the moderation, but by the absolute triviality of what we are asking the Government to give us here.
  VISCOUNT BRIDGEMAN: My Lords, after the facts and figures which have been given by the noble Lord who has just sat down I feel that your Lordships will not want any more statistics. The time has now come when a decision will have to be taken. If Parliament fixes a quota for a film it cannot avoid a certain risk. There is a risk in two directions. If the quota is fixed too high, then there is a risk either that the films will not be forthcoming or that those films which are forthcoming to fill the quota will not be worthy of the standards which we expect. That is a risk which, naturally, the Government and the Board of Trade wish to avoid. On the other hand, if the quota is fixed too low, then we have the risk that we are cramping the natural forces of expansion of the cinematograph industry; in other words, we are depriving the workers in the industry of an opportunity to create films which they would have had if Parliament had fixed these quotas higher. We who support this Amendment believe that there is no risk whatever as regards the short films or the long films, and that, if the quotas for which we are asking become law, there will be no risk either that the quality will suffer or that there will be an actual shortage.
  As the last two speakers have said, the short films, which we are discussing now, are the easiest kind to produce. They cost less and are therefore the easiest

  281
  kind to finance, and, not least important, they are the kind of film which is most suited to express British ideas and the British mode of thought. I think your Lordships will agree that this is a time when we should not deny ourselves any opportunity of putting things British on the screen. I was wondering when my noble friend was speaking whether, if by any chance we did not increase the quota, a situation might not arise where His Majesty's Government would find it necessary to have a bigger quota than the one now in the Bill in order to carry out some scheme of propaganda, which, after all, is not out of the question. May it not happen that the Government themselves will have to regret putting the quota at too small a figure? That is a question which I cannot answer. Possibly the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill may be able to say a word on that. However, when one balances the two possibilities—the possibility of there being a shortage or of there being too many bad films, and the possibility that we may make the quota too small and cramp the industry artificially—it seems to me and to those of my noble friends who are supporting the Amendment that if we are to take a risk we should take the risk which will lead, if it is successful, to a bigger production of films in this country.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My Lords, I hope your Lordships will feel that I have hitherto been very reasonable in the number of Amendments I have accepted, but this one I must most firmly ask the House to reject. It has been, if I may say so, very sincerely argued and very ingeniously argued in some respects. Never having been able to pass a mathematical examination, I have always had the most profound suspicion of mathematics, and after listening to my noble friend Lord Darcy de Knayth's calculation that after all he was only asking for a fraction of a minute in a fraction of a number of cinemas I became entirely convinced, if I ever needed convincing, that mathematics will prove anything, however fallacious.
  LORD STRABOLGI: Even the strength of the German force.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: My noble friend is nearly always wrong, but he always comes back. Nor indeed can I accept completely—in spite of the wholly
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  undeserved compliment paid to me in regard to my regular work—that it is a first class matter of defence that we should have more than 7½ per cent. of first line short films as the real test of parity. I am going to ask your Lordships to reject this Amendment because I believe that if it were passed we might very easily be doing much more harm than good to the producing industry. I think that in talking about the quota some speakers are apt to forget that a quota is a minimum and not a maximum. My noble friend Lord Darcy said that such and such companies produce more than the minimum number of films, and that such and such companies show more than the minimum number of films and that therefore we ought to put the quota above the figure which is set here. But we really must not try to fix the quota upon the maximum which the industry can produce or sustain. We should entirely defeat our purpose if we did that. The purpose of the quota is an insurance, so to speak, which will enable the industry to go forward.
  My noble friend paid me a compliment as being the author of the original Act, but I should feel that my Act and my policy had wholly failed if at the end of that time, or indeed if half way through that time, all that was happening was that we were producing the minimum insurance provided under the Act and were showing the minimum number of films. That never was the conception or the purpose of the Act. It was to give this insurance in the hope that the minimum provided in the Act might be very considerably exceeded. Therefore, I am sure your Lordships would be entirely wrong if you followed the line of argument which has been addressed to you that this quota, whatever the figure may be, is to be the total number of films to be shown. It is nothing of the kind. It is the minimum number which everybody has got to show who shows this kind of film, with the alternative of being prosecuted and paying a penalty. My noble friend Lord Moyne seemed to think that as the Government had been defeated in Committee on the quota for long films it followed almost as a matter of course that the Government would surrender on the short film.
  LORD MOYNE: On the contrary, I made it clear that the two questions are quite distinct.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: I am very glad to hear that. I was afraid that some of your Lordships might feel that this was almost a consequential Amendment, and that as it had been decided to increase the quota for long films, automatically the quota for short films ought to be increased. But that is not the position. The quota for short films is an entirely new invention. There has been no obligation up to the present to rent or show a short film. My noble friend's argument in Committee carried great conviction and I had some difficulty, although I did my best, in refuting it. He said: "Under your own Act the renter is to-day compelled to show 20 per cent. and the exhibitor is compelled to show 15 per cent."—I think those are the figures—"and it would be unreasonable to relieve the renter and the exhibitor of this obligation which under your own Act they are compelled to discharge at the present day." I thought, and I still think, that there were good reasons why these figures—which I agree are under my Act obligatory—should be reduced, but my noble friend carried conviction with the House on that argument last time. I hope that I may carry the same conviction this time.
  This is not a case of reducing an existing obligation upon renter and exhibitor. It is a case of putting an entirely new obligation upon the renter and the exhibitor. There is no short-film quota in existence at the present time. No renter or exhibitor in this country is compelled to rent or show a short film. All our experience under the Films Act has shown that it is wise when imposing a new obligation which is going to apply to every renter—though I am going to argue this more in reference to exhibitors—to go reasonably gently at the start. Remember that there are something like 4,000 exhibitors in this country. It is not a question of those little theatres which show the news reel. The news reel, incidentally, does not come in at all. It is a matter of theatres up and down the country which give the ordinary "movie" show to which we all go in such little spare time as we enjoy. And observe this further. If we carry out the object which my noble friend has at heart—and indeed I am sure he will agree that I have the object of the producers at heart as much as anybody, for after all I in vented this form of quota—and
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  put too high a quota on the exhibitor, he may decide not to show any short films at all. He need not show one. The obligation under the Schedule and under the Act is not to show short films; it is merely an obligation that if you do in your programme show foreign short films, you must also show a given proportion of British short films.
  We must not be too eclectic in our legislation. People are going to see the kind of films they like seeing. I think a great many of these short films are very good, and my own personal opinion is that a considerable number of short films which are imported are quite bad, though there are some very good ones too. But it is no good our just making ourselves arbiters of taste in this way. The exhibitors are going to buy those films which they think they can get their varying public to come and see, and if we put an obligation upon them to take too many of these short British films, or more than they think will be suitable to fill their theatres, all that is going to happen is that a number of theatres will not take short films at all but will fill their programmes with the longer films, which they are perfectly entitled to do under the Act. My noble friend said that if we found that this quota was too low, we ought to be able to put it up. Careful provision has already been made in the Bill. Indeed, under Clause 15 there is an obligation—I think I am right; it is not only a discretion—upon the Films Council to review the position in the course of the coming year, and if they think that you can safely put up the quota, then they may recommend that course to the Board of Trade, and the Board of Trade has power to increase the quota accordingly. I submit most sincerely that this is a much wiser way of dealing with an increase in the quota, and an increase in an entirely new quota which has never been upon the industry before, than to say that we will now put this quota up to a higher figure and take the chance of its being right. I think we had much better proceed by experience.
  Let me add just this one other fact. My noble friend Lord Moyne said that he was very glad that we had made so wide the definition of short films. Practically nothing except the news reel and, I think, some special educational films is now excluded from this wide definition

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  of what is a short film. But the fact that we have made the definition of the short film so wide, and that for every foreign short film, except the pure news film or the exceptional educational film with a limited circulation, a British short film has to be shown, is surely a reason for being rather moderate in the starting figure for our quota for short films. For reasons which I submit show that this is not a wise provision in the interest of getting British short films shown, I ask the House to reject this Amendment.
  In conclusion, I ought to draw the attention of the House to a letter which has been put at my disposal and which I understand comes, so far as anybody can speak for short film producers, from an association of gentlemen who produce short films. It is a letter from what is called "The Sub-Standard Cinematograph Association"—we get the most extraordinary expressions in this industry!—of 34, Soho Square, and was written to the President of the Board of Trade on February 18. The Chairman, Mr. F. A. Hoare, writes this:
  "I am asked to express on behalf of members of this association the appreciation of the producers of short films for the sympathy your Department have accorded to their views and objectives. It is realised how difficult the task of embracing and correlating the various interests has been, and the passing of the Bill from Committee stage provides an opportune moment to voice this feeling."
  If that be the feeling voiced by the producers of short films I am instructed—
  LORD DARCY (DE KNAYTH): My Lords, this is from an organisation which has circularised a large number of Peers in support of this very Amendment. It is the very thing from which I was quoting in my supporting speech just now.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: They seem to me to change their minds with remarkable rapidity, and they apparently do not communicate their change of heart, or view, to the President of the Board of Trade. I am sure that if they had, I should not have been supplied by the Board of Trade with this letter written on February 18 to congratulate the President on what he had done for them. Of course, as my noble friend said, everybody likes to get something for nothing, and no doubt if they thought, with their keen advocates here, like my noble friend Lord Moyne and his enthusiastic follower behind him, that there was a little more
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  that could be got, then I dare say they were not averse, like other meek, from inheriting the earth if the earth were there for the asking. I will not put it higher than that, but they were apparently well satisfied with the position when the Bill left the House of Commons. No doubt if they thought your Lordships were going to be more generous, or, I suggest, if I may do so without impertinence, less judiciously wise—which I am sure you will pot be!—than another place, they might perhaps have put forward an extra claim. But I do submit, for the reasons I have given, that this is not an Amendment which it would be wise for this House to accept, and I hope that your Lordships will leave this extremely low quota, this first attempt at a short quota, where it is.
  VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, the noble Viscount has drawn attention to Clause 15, under which a quota can be altered. I take it that the quota can be altered up or down.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: It cannot fall below the figure laid down.
  LORD MOYNE: My Lords, I should like to say a word about the alleged misrepresentation of the opinions of the short film producers. Naturally, during the consultations which have taken place, their interests were not forgotten. On inquiry whether they were satisfied, my noble friends and I were told that they felt that the quota of 7½ per cent. was absolutely derisory, that it would make no difference whatever, and that they had not agitated about it because they were glad to have recognition that they exist, though they felt that they were going to get no help whatever from this Bill. I have here in my hand, although I do not propose to weary your Lordships by reading it, a circular which has been sent to a good many noble Lords, showing why this very small quota suggested in the Bill will not help them to break down this terrific price obstacle, under which they are up against people who say they can get films for nothing and do not see why they should pay for them. These short films cost at least a few hundred pounds to produce, and very often £50, is offered, entirely because the price is cut down by the free distribution of American films.
  It is true that this Amendment is in no way consequential on what was de-

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  cided in Committee, but it is a fortiori much easier to help the small-film producer, because he responds much more quickly than the long-film producer and the valuable long film is not given away for nothing. There is no doubt that the short film is given away under this vicious system of block booking, with which, in spite of the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, the Government did not find it possible to deal. I do not think there is the slightest danger of the short film being cut out of the programme. It is included in many cases as a makeweight, to fill up time, and the long films are not of standard length which would enable you to have a programme consisting merely of two long
  Resolved in the negative, and Amendment agreed to accordingly.
  VISCOUNT SWINTON: After this trial of strength I will not put your Lordships to the trouble of any further Division, and I suggest that we accept the consequences of the decision which the House has just taken, and adjust the Schedule accordingly.
  Amendments moved—
  Page 46, second column:

PART I.
Line 8, leave out ("10") and insert ("15")
Line 9, leave out ("12½") and insert ("17½")
Line 10, leave out ("12½") and insert ("17½")
Line 11, leave out ("15") and insert ("20")
films. These people have got to start off with a quota which is of no practical value whatever in forcing their way into a market which is firmly entrenched against them by the fact that if people are to get British films instead of American they will have to pay for them, which they do not at the present time. For these reasons I cannot withdraw the Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I propose to put the Amendment in this way—namely, Whether the numeral "10" shall stand part of the Schedule.
On Question: Whether ("10") shall stand part of the Schedule?
Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 25; Not-Contents, 28.

CONTENTS.

Maugham, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Lucan, E. [Teller.]

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Plymouth, E.

Bath, M.

Stanhope, E.

Erskine, L.

Zetland, M.

Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.)

Monsell, V.

Gage, L. (V. Gage.) [Teller.]

Cromer, E. (L. Chamberlain.)

Runciman of Doxford, V.

Howard of Glossop, L.

Airlie, E.

Swinton, V.

Hutchison of Montrose, L.

Bessborough, E.

Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

Clarendon, E.

Amulree, L.

Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.

Fortescue, E.

Cadman, L.

Templemore, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Poulett, E.

Darcy (de Knayth), L.

Mancroft, L.

Doverdale, L.

Marley, L.

Bertie of Thame, V.

Forester, L.

Middleton, L.

Bridgeman, V. [Teller.]

Gorell, L.

Moyne, L. [Teller.]

Chaplin, V.

Greville, L.

Palmer, L.

Chelmsford, V.

Hampton, L.

Remnant, L.

Exmouth, V.

Harris, L.

Snell, L.

Plumer, V.

Hindlip, L.

Strabolgi, L.

Holden, L.

Waleran, L.

Carnock, L.

Killanin, L.

Wolverton, L.

Line 12, leave out ("15") and insert ("20")
Line 13, leave out ("17½") and insert ("22½")
Line 14, leave out ("17½") and insert ("22½")
Line 15, leave out ("20") and insert ("25")
Line 16, leave out ("20") and insert ("25")

PART II
Line 21, leave out ("7½") and insert ("12½")
Line 22, leave out ("7½") and insert ("12½")
Line 23, leave out ("7½") and insert ("15")
Line 24, leave out ("7½") and insert ("15")
Line 25, leave out ("10") and insert ("17½")
Line 26, leave out ("10 ") and insert ("17½")
Line 27, leave out ("12½") and insert ("20")
Line 28, leave out ("12½") and insert ("20")
Line 29, leave out ("15") and insert ("22½")
Line 30, leave out ("15") and insert ("22½").—(Lord Moyne.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.

SUPERANNUATION (VARIOUS SER- VICES) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at twelve minutes past six o'clock.