§ PROVISIONS AS TO PERSONS EMPLOYED BY MAKERS AND PROCESSORS OF FILMS.
§ Wages and conditions of employment of persons employed by makers and processors of films.
§ .—(1) The wages paid by any person carrying on in Great Britain the business of a maker or processor of films to persons employed by him in connection with that business, and the conditions of employment of persons so employed, shall, unless agreed upon by the employer and by organisations representative of the persons employed, be not less favourable to the person employed than the wages which would be payable, and the conditions which would have to be observed, under a contract which complied with the requirements of any resolution of the House of Commons for the time being in force applicable to contracts of Government departments: and if any dispute arises as to what wages ought to be paid, or what conditions ought to be observed, in accordance with this section, it shall, if not otherwise disposed of, be referred by the Board of Trade to the industrial court for settlement.
§ (2) Where any matter is referred to the industrial court under this section, the court, in arriving at its decision, shall have regard to any determination that may be brought to its notice relating to the wages or conditions of service of persons employed in a capacity similar to that of the persons to whom the reference relates, being a determination contained in a decision of a joint industrial council, conciliation board or other similar body, or in an agreement between organisations representative of employers and workpeople.
§ (3) Where any award has been made by the industrial court upon a dispute referred to that court under this section, then, as from the date of the award or from such later date as the court may direct, it shall be an implied term of the contract between the employer and workers to whom the award applies that the rate of wages to be paid, or the conditions of employment to be observed, under the contract shall, until varied in accordance with the provisions of this section, be in accordance with the award."
§ The noble Lord said: In another place this Amendment was down in the name of some of my honourable friends, and it 103 would have been accepted then, but it was out of order because in another place the title of the Bill could not be altered. This is a good example of the elasticity of the rules of your Lordships' House. I understand the Government are going to accept the Amendment, and they were kind enough to give me advice on the drafting. There is only one small point I wish to raise and that is whether it is necessary to include "processors" so as to cover workers in laboratories. On the Second Reading the noble Viscount said he left out the different people employed in the theatres who are separately dealt with, but I am asking to include makers and processors. If the Government prefer not to have "processors" in and assure me that "makers" includes them, I shall be perfectly content.
§
Amendment moved—
After Clause 33, insert the said new clause.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThe development of the cinematograph films is undertaken by some studios on their own premises, and to the degree that that is done their employees engaged in processing the film would be covered by the clause which the Government promised to accept. In so far, however, as processing of a film is done at outside laboratories not owned by the film maker, clearly no control over wages and conditions of employment can be exercised by the film maker. Such outside processors perform other duties than developing films—for example, all kinds of photographic work, and there is no logical reason why the clause should not extend to makers of raw stock. In these circumstances we would prefer not to include the word "processors."
LORD STRABOLGII presume we should put an Amendment down in that case on the Report stage, and that this Amendment should pass now on that understanding.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 34:
§ Films to which Act applies.
§ 34. The films to which this Act applies are all cinematograph films other than—
§ (a) films consisting wholly or mainly of photographs which, at the time when they were taken, were means of communicating news or were of special interest by reason of their relation to topics of the day, or
104§ LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in paragraph (a), to leave out "or were of special interest by reason of their relation to topics of the day." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is the result of further consultation with the makers of news reels as to the best definition of "news reels" for insertion in the Bill. The words which it is proposed to delete would, it has been found, in some cases include specially-acted films of fictional form relating to matters of topical interest. It is not desired that any such films should be excluded from the scope of the Bill. By limiting the definition in the way which is now proposed, paragraph (a) will exclude from the scope of the Act films which are simply and solely news films, within the commonly accepted meaning of that term.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 24, leave out from ("news") to ("or") in line 26.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 35 to 39 agreed to.
§ Clause 40:
§ The Cinematograph Films Council.
§ 40.—(1) There shall be a Council to be called "the Cinematograph Films Council," consisting of twenty-one members appointed by the Board of Trade; and of the members of the said Council—
- (a) eleven (of whom one shall be the chairman of the Council) shall be persons who appear to the Board of Trade to have no pecuniary interest in any branch of the cinematograph film industry;
- (b) two shall be persons appointed as representing makers of films;
- (c) two shall be persons appointed as representing renters;
- (d) four shall he persons appointed as representing exhibitors; and
- (e) two shall he persons appointed as representing persons employed by makers of films.
§ Before appointing a person to be a representative member of the said Council the Board of Trade shall consult such bodies, if any, as appear to the Board to be representative of the interest concerned.
§
(2) The functions of the said Council shall be—
(a) …
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME, who had given Notice of an Amendment in subsection (1), to leave out "twenty-one" and insert "fifteen", said: As the hour is getting rather late, I do not 105 know whether it would be for the convenience of my noble friend if I were to postpone this Amendment until the Report stage. If my noble friend will tell me how that he consents to that course I will postpone it; otherwise I shall have to move it.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONI am in the hands of the Committee in this matter. I cannot possibly accept this Amendment. We have had a very full discussion both on the Second Reading and on the Amendment which was moved earlier as to the constitution of the Council, and I had very much hoped that, in view of that full discussion, my noble friend would not move this Amendment but would leave the Council standing as it is. As has been said repeatedly, it is the only thing on which the industry is in agreement, and I am bound to resist any attempts now to vary it this way or that by taking one away here and adding another there. I really can say this with confidence, that any such attempts would meet with very, very great resistance from the combined interests concerned. I am, of course, entirely in my noble friend's hands. If he wishes to move the Amendment he must move it; but I did venture to hope that, as we have had a full discussion of the constitution of the Council, the Committee might pass this clause.
§ LORD ASKWITHI suggest that my noble friend should put it down on the Report stage and consider it in the meanwhile. One understands that there is agreement in the industry about this matter and one knows how very difficult it is to form these Councils and to have the different interests represented. Therefore my noble friend might discuss it a little more with the people who are interested with him in the matter. My own view about the Council, when I supported the Amendment by putting my name to it, was that it was too large; but, as there are so very many interests in the trade and all of them must have some representation it is a bad thing to leave out those of any particular class who would think they were unjustly treated. If it is correct that the interests are all agreed and that this is practically an agreed clause, it would be unwise for your Lordships to try to disturb it.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy information is directly opposite to that 106 of my noble friend Lord Swinton, but I will consult with the people who have asked me to move this Amendment and I will reserve my right to move it on the Report stage.
LORD STRABOLGIDoes that mean that none of these Amendments to Clause 40 are to be moved? The noble Lord, Lord Gorell, has a very important Amendment which he proposes to insert after paragraph (e).
LORD GORELLI take it that the rights of later Amendments are not affected by what has just been said.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONMy Amendment in subsection (1) (a) is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 8, leave out from ("persons") to end of line 11, and insert ("appointed as being independent persons").—(Viscount Swinton.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MOYNE, who had an Amendment in paragraph (a) of subsection (1), to leave out "have no pecuniary interest in any branch of the cinematograph film industry" and insert "be qualified to represent the general interests of the public and to assist the said Council in the exercise of its functions," said: This is covered by the Amendment down in the name of the noble Viscount.
LORD GORELLI will not now move my Amendment in subsection (1) (d) to leave out "four" and insert "three," reserving one's right to move it on the Report stage when the composition of the Council comes up again. But I feel bound to move the Amendment to insert in subsection (1), after paragraph (e):
(f) two shall be persons appointed as representing the Society of Authors, Playwrights and Composers.The statement by my noble friend the Secretary of State for Air, that general agreement has been reached, may apply to the various other sections represented upon the Council, but it does not apply to those on whose behalf I am moving this Amendment. I put down my other two Amendments so as not to increase the total number of the Council. That, I understand, in view of what has taken place just now, will come up for consideration upon Report. But I wish 107 to press upon the attention of your Lordships the Amendment which I am now moving.It is a perfectly simple one, thereby very much in contradistinction to much of the complications which have hitherto formed part of the Bill. It has been rather striking, throughout all the discussions which have taken place upon the cinematograph industry, that there has been as yet no mention whatever of that class of persons without whom no film can come into existence at all, that is to say, the author. The author was mentioned in the 1927 Bill when, I think I am right in saying, there was a provision that the scenario must be by a British author. That has not been found to be workable and now, naturally, is dropped. But still the essential preliminary part of film making, that is to say, the writing of a script, can under this Bill be done in a foreign studio, and, if it is, that would seem to negative one of the great purposes of the Bill, to encourage the British industry and still more to encourage the British ideas as promulgated by this enormous industry throughout the world. When an Amendment in rather similar terms was moved in another place, the President of the Board of Trade, while admitting the right of authors to be represented, claimed that they would come in under the trade union representation. That would seem to be an entire misunderstanding of the purpose of authorship. It could no more be argued that someone who was purely technical or someone who represented a trade union was representative of authorship than I think one could claim that those who brought in pictures for an academy exhibition were entitled to choose what pictures should be hung.
The President of the Board of Trade further argued that, even if they did not come in under that section of the Council, they could still be brought in under the first section, of independent people having no pecuniary interest in the film industry. But that would rule out any author of any standing, any novelist who desired to see his work turned into a film. Not to mention any of the living, we have recently had the example of Mr. Rudyard Kipling's Captains Courageous converted into a film. I think, if we are going to count upon authors being represented in the first section, it means that there will 108 be no author who has any standing as far as the maker of stories is concerned. There is a further point which I would press upon the attention of the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill, and that is that, when an Amendment in very similar terms was moved in another place, the President of the Board of Trade said that he held a letter from the Screen Writers' Association, which is the section of the Authors' Society primarily interested in film making, that they agreed with the composition of the Council. That was a mistake, and the President of the Board of Trade, having in all innocence made that statement, apologised to the mover of the Amendment afterwards, because no such letter was in fact in existence. On the strength of that having been stated in another place, the Amendment was negatived. An apology without redress is hardly sufficient.
It has been said that authors should not necessarily be represented on a body which is purely industrial. As I see it, the whole case for protection of the cinematograph industry is that it is much more than an industry; that it is a promulgation of ideas in a very attractive form throughout millions of audiences; and it is essential that we should not have all those ideas represented through an American mind. I therefore venture to hope, in spite of the persistence with which my noble friend has so far resisted all Amendments which have been offered, that this one is incontestable, and that he will be willing to accept the right of authors to be represented in regard to what springs from authors' brains. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 35, line 19, at end insert—
("(f) two shall be persons appointed as representing the Society of Authors, Playwrights and Composers.").—(Lord Gorell.)
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONI am afraid I must resist this Amendment, not because the President of the Board of Trade does not wish to see literature represented indeed, but rather because, as we hope, literature will be represented twice over. Really my noble friend and I find ourselves in a dilemma in this matter. He would certainly not deny that the screen writer or scenario writer would in fact be one of the employees in the industry, a most expert and distinguished one, but 109 still he really is a part of the structure of employment in this industry as much as the star or the expert camera man or whoever it may be, and in so far therefore as the claim comes on behalf of the scenario writer then that surely is rightly included in the representation of those employed in the industry. But my noble friend says there is a much wider consideration than that. Films have their great influence, their moving history and literature, and literature should have its place. I entirely agree, but surely that place is to be found not by adding a literary technician particularly and necessarily among those who are interested in the business, but by seeing, as I am assured my right honourable friend the President of the Board of Trade would wish to see, that literature is represented among the independent members of the tribunal. I think what my noble friend has at heart is that we should look at this from the point of view of the literary influence which films can bring to bear. I venture to think that literature is much better represented on the independent side of this body than by being treated as a technician among the employees. On that understanding I hope that my noble friend will not press the Amendment.
LORD GORELLI appreciate the argument which has just been addressed to your Lordships by my noble friend. Of course the change of words leaving out "no pecuniary interest" and substituting "independent persons" does make a difference. Can we have an assurance from the noble Viscount that among these persons who are going to be appointed as independent there will in fact be authors appointed by the Board of Trade? It is hardly enough to say that those who have no pecuniary interest will be appointed, because that would rule out all the main authors of the country. If I can have an assurance that authors will be represented then I need not press the Amendment, but in the absence of such assurance I feel bound to press it.
§ VISCOUNT SWINTONYes, if my noble friend means authors in the broad sense. I do not promise that it will be an author who has become a scenario writer, but that literature will be represented, authors shall be represented, in the independent side of the tribunal. I readily give that assurance.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§
VISCOUNT SWINTON moved to insert after paragraph (e) in subsection (1):
(2) It shall be the duty of the Board of Trade to satisfy themselves, with respect to any person whom they propose to appoint under paragraph (a) of the preceding subsection to be a member of the said Council or who is a member of the Council by virtue of an appointment made under that paragraph, that he will have or has, as the case may be, no such financial or commercial interest as is likely to affect him in the discharge of his functions as a member of the Council; and any such person shall, whenever requested by the Board so to do, furnish to them such information as they consider necessary for the performance of their duty under this subsection.
§ The noble Viscount said: This is more than a drafting Amendment. Noble Lords will remember that Lord Moyne on the last occasion raised what I thought was a very good point, that you might have someone that you would like to put on the independent side of the tribunal who might have some quite small financial interest, it might be a few shares in a company, and who would be otherwise altogether admirable. I promised the noble Lord that I would see whether we could not devise an alternative to the disclosure of interest, and I think that this will meet the point he and I have in mind.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 19, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Swinton.)
LORD STRABOLGIBefore your Lordships pass this Amendment I would like to say that I am afraid I have not followed what has happened to this clause. It is a most important one. Certain Amendments have been moved and others reserved for the Report stage. I thought there was going to be an Amendment moved by Lord Moyne with reference to a full-time chairman.
§ LORD MOYNEIt is coming later on.
LORD STRABOLGIThat has nothing to do with the Amendment moved by the Minister for Air. I think it is an excellent Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
111
§
LORD STRABOLGI moved to insert after paragraph (a) in subsection (2):
(b) to make recommendations for the establishment of an apprenticeship scheme on the technical side of film production in all its branches;
The noble Lord said: This Amendment was intended to be moved in another place, but it was not selected by Mr. Speaker. Clause 40 lays down the duties of this Council, and I think that one of those duties should naturally be the drawing up of an apprenticeship scheme for approval by the Board of Trade. This vast industry employs 10,000 technicians, a great number of actors and actresses and people of all kinds in all kinds of trades, and yet it has no apprenticeship scheme at all. There is great complaint, I understand, that we are short of capable English directors. I believe we have a certain number of very good English directors who can make films on the floor, but not so many as we would like to have. Yet there is no system of training up young men with the necessary talents to play a part in the future of this industry. What happens is that people drift into it. There is a good deal of nepotism. Nephews or cousins or relations or friends of the important financial backers of a film are brought in, and there are a number of other young men who go in and for a time are employed with no wages as improvers or learners. The whole state of recruitment is chaotic. Therefore I think that an apprenticeship scheme is badly needed. This is only a provision to make recommendations. It will be for the Board of Trade to act and for the industry itself, later on perhaps, to take a hand in the matter. I am sure your Lordships would agree that this is a very reasonable Amendment and I hope the Government will accept it.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 31, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Strabolgi.)
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI hope the noble Lord does not think that I am not going to be reasonable, but I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment. It seems to make it a definite duty of the Films Council to make a recommendation for an apprenticeship scheme in the production side of the film industry. To make it mandatory on the Council to consider one particular question raises 112 doubts as to their power to consider others. Their functions are drafted in very wide terms. As set out in subsection (2) of Clause 40 they already comprise keeping under review the progress of the industry "with particular reference to the development of that branch of the said industry which is engaged in the making of films." It would appear that these words would already enable the Council to consider questions relating to apprenticeship schemes in the production branch of the industry, and that the separate Amendment now proposed is accordingly unnecessary. It may be assumed that the representatives of the film employees on the Council will not hesitate to raise the question if they think M. For these reasons I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment and I hope the noble Lord will not press it.
LORD STRABOLGII do not desire to press this Amendment or to put your Lordships to the trouble of a Division, though I feel strongly about it. May I ask, have the Board of Trade themselves any ideas on this, and will the Board of Trade suggest, as they are entitled to do, to the Films Council that this matter should be examined at an early date? If we could have some assurance of that kind it would be some comfort.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI think I can easily give the noble Lord that assurance. It will certainly be in the mind of the Board of Trade.
LORD STRABOLGIIf I have Lord Templemore's word on that matter, I am satisfied and will not press the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD MOYNE had on the Paper an Amendment to insert two new subsections empowering the Board of Trade to appoint a Secretary, and to determine the remuneration of officers. The noble Lord said: I understand that the appointment of a paid secretary is well within the competence of the Board of Trade under the powers of the Bill, and therefore, on that understanding, I do not move.
§ Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 41 and 42 agreed to.
§ Clause 43 [Interpretation]:
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREThe three Amendments to this clause are drafting 113 Amendments, but I might just explain that their effect is to shorten the definition of "renters' quota period" without altering its scope. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 25, leave out from ("means") to ("beginning") in line 26 and insert ("the year").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 27, leave out ("in the year").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 28, leave out ("and a") and insert ("or the").—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
§ First Schedule: