HL Deb 29 June 1938 vol 110 cc415-20

2. For the purpose of determining the road haulage work for which statutory remuneration may be fixed under this Act, a road haulage worker shall be deemed to be employed on road haulage work while employed on any work mentioned in the last foregoing paragraph and also during any time during which he is— (d) waiting in accordance with the instructions of his employer as a necessary consequence of his employment on any work so mentioned.

3. The Minister may, after consultation with the Central Board, by order modify the foregoing provisions of this Schedule, but no such order shall come into force unless and until it has been approved by a Resolution of each House of Parliament.

EARL HOWE had an Amendment on the Paper to make paragraphs i and 2 read as follows: 1. For the purposes of this Act the expression 'road haulage worker' means a person employed on work done by workers who are required by the provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to travel on or accompany a goods vehicle. The noble Earl said: The object of this Amendment is to provide that only drivers and statutory attendants, required under the provisions of Section 17 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to attend a locomotive or a trailer, are to come within the definition of a "road haulage worker" for the purpose of the Act. Under the Third Schedule to the Bill the definition of a "road haulage worker" includes drivers, statutory attendants, mates, and van boys. We think that this will create considerable difficulty. It is submitted that only drivers and statutory attendants required under the provisions of Section 17 of the Act of 1930 should come within the definition of "road haulage worker" for the purposes of the Bill, particularly seeing that the Baillie Committee on the regulation of wages and conditions of service recommended in paragraph 132, that: There should be set up new regulative machinery for the road transport industry (goods) in Great Britain to deal inter alia with all matters affecting the work, wages and conditions of drivers and statutory attendants.

Your Lordships no doubt know what a statutory attendant is. He is a man who has got to be on certain classes of vehicles when it is hauling a trailer. This being the recommendation of the Baillie Committee, we think that the Bill before us goes far beyond the Committee's recommendation, and is likely to create considerable difficulty. It is therefore recommended that only drivers and statutory attendants should be brought within the provisions of any new legislation. This point was not referred to in any way in another place, and therefore I submit that it is a matter which should receive careful consideration in this House.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 21, leave out from ("person") to the end of line 17 on page 21, insert ("employed on work done by who are required by the provisions Road Traffic Act, 1930, to travel accompany a goods vehicle").—(Earl Howe.)

LORD SANDHURST

I would like m ask one question with regard to the Bill itself. In paragraph 2 of the Third Schedule it strikes me that the definition is extraordinarily wide. My own business in life is that of a wine merchant, and so far as I can see the definition includes my head cellarman, who never goes on a vehicle but who does assist in loading goods on vehicles.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

I certainly can give the noble Lord an assurance on the point which he raises. It includes people who are actually &riving on vehicles, but it could not include any one like my noble friend's cellarman. With regard to the Amendment of Lord Howe, he wishes to limit the scope of the Bill to drivers and statutory attendants. Of course the scope of the Bill goes beyond this, and includes all persons who are required to travel on a vehicle, unless, as I said in my speech on the Second Reading, the main purpose for which they are required to travel on or accompany a vehicle is that of executing work other than road haulage work after the arrival of the vehicle at its destination. For instance, furniture removers and so on. Accordingly men commonly known to the trade as mates and van boys are included within the scope of the Bill, and it is the Minister's view that they should be covered. This view is shared by representatives of the employers' organisations and trade unions. For those reasons I am afraid I cannot accept the Amendment, which would cut out from the scope of the Bill a very large body of people wham the Minister and the Government think ought to be included.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in paragraph 2 (d), after "waiting," to insert "whether overnight or otherwise." The noble Lord said: This is a precautionary Amendment. My right honourable friend stated in the debate on the Second Reading in another place that it is the intention that "in making proposals for fixing remuneration the Central Board will have power to deal with all kinds of remuneration, including, for example, overtime rates, subsistence allowances and commission, as well as holiday remuneration." The subsistence remuneration which it is intended that the Board should have power to propose will apply in cases where a worker is waiting away from home as a necessary consequence of his employment on road haulage work. The Amendment is intended to make it quite clear that subsistence allowances will be payable in respect of a night's absence from home as well as in respect of periods of waiting during the day time.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 15, after ("waiting") insert ("(whether overnight or otherwise)").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL HOWE moved to insert: 3. The Industrial Court shall be empowered to determine grades of employment in which road haulage work is a small part of the work of the worker and to exclude such worker from the provisions of the Act. The noble Earl said: I am glad to think that this is the last Amendment which I have to move to this Bill, and it seems to me that the Amendment might very easily meet the point raised by Lord Sandhurst, because its object is to empower the Industrial Court to determine special grades of employment which may with equity be excluded from the provisions of the measure; for example, billposters, window cleaners, etc. There are many grades of employment in which road haulage work is only ancillary to the main work of the worker. Such grades of employment particularly apply to the C licence holders and cover such work as that of window cleaners, billposters, salesmen, etc., whose employment on the vehicle is only a small part of their work. The Industrial Court should therefore be empowered to determine the grades of employment in which road haulage is only a small part of the workers' work, and such workers should be excluded from the provisions of the Bill. This is a point which was not considered in any way in another place.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 17, insert the said subsection.—(Earl Howe.)

LORD TEMPLEMORE

This Amendment would empower the Industrial Court to exclude from the provisions of the Act certain workers who are only employed on road haulage work for a small part of their time. The Amendment does not define "grades of employment" or "road haulage work." Its effect would be that either Part I of the Bill could not operate until the Industrial Court had produced an adequate definition of the scope of its powers, or the employers and workers under Part I of the Bill and the Central and Area Boards and C licence holders under Part II would have to proceed hypothetically, and would consequently be exposed to the risk of acting ultra vires. For that reason I cannot accept the Amendment.

LORD SANDHURST

We are getting rather tied up in this matter, because Lord Howe pointed out that there are a lot of workers who may travel on a vehicle, and I see myself being put in this position. The senior cellarman will be responsible for loading the vehicle at one end and he will be responsible for putting the wine into somebody's cellar at the other end, but I may not send him on the vehicle, which would cost nothing, I have to send him by train or omnibus, so as to keep him outside the scope of this Bill. It strikes me as carrying things a little bit far. There should be some means by which we can exempt certain of our employees from the scope of the Bill when they have really nothing to do with the vehicle but frequently use it as a means of transport for themselves.

EARL HOWE

If the noble Lord is not able to accept my Amendment, would he tell us how the worker is to be defined under this Bill? If you cannot accept the words I have proposed surely there ought to be some definition. The noble Lord might perhaps be able to indicate to us, if not now then at a later stage, who is really covered by the Bill.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

I think that the definitions of those who are covered by the Bill are clearly laid down in the Third Schedule. But undoubtedly there is a good deal of doubt on the subject in the minds of certain noble Lords, and I will certainly undertake to look into the matter before the next stage of the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD TEMPLEMORE moved, in paragraph 3, after "Board," to insert "and with such organisations of employers and workers as he thinks proper." The noble Lord said: The Third Schedule defines the scope of both Part I of the Bill, which relates to A and B licensed vehicles, and Part II of the Bill, which relates to C licensed vehicles. The Central Board is, of course, the Central Board under Part I of the Bill, and is accordingly concerned solely with workers employed in connection with A and B licensed vehicles. C licence holders will be concerned with alterations made in the Third Schedule, and it is thought desirable that the Minister should assume responsibility for consulting their organisations and the organisations to which their workers may belong before making alterations in the definitions contained in the Third Schedule. In the case of the employers who are holders of C licences there is a very great number of organisations concerned, and the Minister cannot assume the responsibility to consult with all of them. Consultation will obviously not be necessary with an organisation representing C licence holders, who may not be concerned with a particular alteration to be made; and in the case of an alteration affecting a considerable number of organisations it may be generally more convenient for the Minister to consult some central organisation, such as the British Road Federation, rather than to hold separate consultations with the individual constituent organisations of the Federation. This Amendment serves the object of an Amendment which appeared on the Order Paper in another place but was not reached, and I think the Minister gave an undertaking that the matter should be dealt with in your Lordships' House.

Amendment moved— Page 21, line 19, after ("Board") insert ("and with such organisations of employers and workers as he thinks proper").—(Lord Templemore.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past four o'clock.