§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
1116§ Clause 1 [Provision of fire services]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the first three Amendments which stand in my name are all drafting Amendments. I do not know whether your Lordships will let me move them en bloc.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORIf your Lordships approve, I will put these Amendments together.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 2, line 14, leave out ("which complies with") and insert ("whose local fire services are of")
§ Page 2, line 16, leave out ("discharged their duty under") and insert ("complied with the provisions of")
§ Page 2, line 18, leave out from ("may") to ("into") in line 20, and insert ("secure local fire services for their borough or district by themselves providing and maintaining either wholly or in part, such fire services or by entering").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 5:
§ No payments to be made by owners and occupiers in respect of fire services.
§
5. A fire authority shall not be entitled to require the owners or occupiers of property on which fires occur to make any payment in respect of the expenses of a fire brigade in attending the fires, and all enactments under which fire authorities may require such payments to be made by the owners or occupiers of property on which fires occur shall cease to have effect:
Provided that…
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out "the expenses of a fire brigade in attending the fires" and insert "local fire services or any fire services provided in pursuance of arrangements made under subsection (5) of Section one of this Act or in pursuance of a scheme made under this Act." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment and the next two are practically drafting Amendments, but perhaps I should add that they will render it unnecessary to make any further or special amendment in Clause 28 to meet the special case of any of the Highland counties or burghs which may be exempted from the compulsory provisions of the Bill by Order of the Secretary of State for Scotland, and have no regular local fire services. I understand that the representatives of the insurance interests have been consulted on these Amendments and have no objection to them. I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 7, line 9, leave out from ("of") to ("and") in line 10, and insert ("local fire 1117 services or any fire services provided in pursuance of arrangements made under subsection (5) of Section one of this Act or in pursuance of a scheme made under this Act")
§ Page 7, line 11, leave out ("such")
§ Page 7, line 13, after ("occur") insert ("in respect of the expenses of a fire brigade in attending the fires").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, this Amendment and the next apparently operate together on Clause 5. I have heard what my noble friend has said, but as he has mentioned other districts I am a little in doubt as to his exact meaning. In order to shorten my question I will put it in this way, if I may: May I take it that these Amendments do not impair the effect of Clause 5 in the sense in which it was accepted on the Committee stage?
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERYes, I can certainly give the noble Lord that assurance. I did say that the insurance interests had been consulted about these Amendments and had raised no objection to them.
§ LORD MANCROFTI am much obliged.
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Clause 9:
§ Schemes for co-ordination of fire services.
§ 9.— (1) If the Fire Service Commission report, as respects any fire authorities, that adequate arrangements have not been made for the provision of such assistance as aforesaid, they may submit to the Secretary of State a scheme (hereinafter referred to as a "co-ordination scheme") for ensuring the provision by those authorities of such assistance:
§ Provided that, before submitting any coordination scheme to the Secretary of State, the Fire Service Commission shall give an opportunity to all file authorities affected by the scheme to mace representations with respect thereto, and shall submit any such representations together with the scheme.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), after "scheme," where that word occurs for the second time, to insert "and to any other persons appearing to the Commission to be specially concerned." The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment has been put down in recognition of the fact that in framing co-ordination schemes under Clause 9 not only fire authorities will be concerned, but also such persons as factory owners whose premises may constitute a special risk and where probably 1118 a private fire brigade is maintained. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 6, after ("scheme") insert ("and to any other persons appearing to the Commission to be specially concerned").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 14 [Powers of fire brigades and police in extinguishing fires]:
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the next two Amendments are to Clause 14 and are manuscript Amendments.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the first is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 34, leave out ("cause") and insert ("require").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the next is also drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 40, leave out ("the provisions of this section") and insert ("such a requirement").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 17 [Definition of "fire brigade duties" for purposes of Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, and this Act]:
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 43, after ("shall") insert ("as soon as may be after regulations have been made by the Minister of Health under the next following subsection").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, this is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 6, leave out ("continue to apply to him accordingly") and insert ("apply to him, and be deemed to have applied to him as from the passing of this Act").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, this is drafting.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 11, after ("him") insert ("and be deemed to have applied to him as from the passing of this Act").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
1119§ Clause 18 [Central Advisory Council for Fire Services]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, this Amendment is practically a drafting Amendment. The words which have been left out here have been reinserted in Clause 24 (2). I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 2, leave out from ("Act") to the end of line 6.—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 22 [Power of Secretary of State to require uniformity of appliances and equipment]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the Amendment to this clause is drafting.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELShould the reference not be to line 40?
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERYes, I am much obliged to the noble Lord. The words which we propose to leave out are "after consultation with the Central Advisory Council for Fire Services," and the Amendment should read: "from 'State' in line 39 to 'may' in line 40."
§
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 39, leave out from ("State") to ("may") in line 4o.—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 24 [Provisions as to orders of Secretary of State]:
§
THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
(2) Before making any order prescribing scales of payments for fire services or any order requiring uniformity of appliances and equipment and fire hydrants, the Secretary of State shall consult the Central Advisory Council for Fire Services, and before making any order prescribing standards of efficiency for fire services, the Secretary of State shall consult with the said Council and with such associations representing fire authorities as appear to him to be concerned and with any fire authorities with whom consultation appears to him to be desirable.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, the House will recall that, on a previous stage of the Bill I informed Lord Saltoun that I should be moving an Amendment at this stage of the Bill, in fulfilment of the pledge which I gave him at that time. I do not think there is any necessity further to explain this Amendment to your Lordships, as I think it was fully dealt with on the Committee stage of the Bill.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 19, at end, insert the said new subsection (2).—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the next is a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 21, leave out ("under Section one of this Act").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 27:
§ Provisions as to London.
§ 27.—(1) The provisions of subsections (3) to (7) of Section two and the provisions of Sections three, five and twenty-one of this Act shall apply to the administrative county of London, subject to the following modifications, that is to say:—
- (a) for the references to a fire authority and to the borough or district of a fire authority there shall be substituted references to the London County Council and the administrative county of London, respectively; and
- (b) for the reference in Section twenty-one to this Act there shall be substituted a reference to the Metropolitan Fire Brigade Act, 1865;
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, this is a consequential Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 4, at end, insert ("fifteen").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, these Amendments are all drafting.
§ Amendments moved—
§
Page 21, line 6, leave out from ("London") to the first ("to") in line 8, and insert ("and the London County Council, and accordingly—
(a) the references in those provisions")
§ Page 21, line 9, leave out ("there shall be substituted") and insert ("shall be construed as including")
§ Page 21, line 13, leave out ("for")
§ Page 21, line 14, leave out ("there shall be substituted") and insert ("shall be construed as including").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§
THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "but save as aforesaid this Act shall not apply to the administrative county of London" and insert:
1121
Provided that nothing in the said Section five shall be taken to affect Section sixty of the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1934.
§ (2) The provisions of Section one of this Act, so far as they relate to the provision of fire services for any borough or district by other fire authorities, shall have effect so as to enable such fire services to be provided by the London County Council and accordingly the references in subsections (3) and (5) of Section one to other fire authorities and the references in subsection (4) thereof to a fire authority shall be construed as including references to the London County Council; and the duty of a fire authority (not including the London County Council) under subsection (5) of Section one of this Act may be discharged, either in whole or in part, by entering into arrangements with the London County Council under Section forty-nine of the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1936."
§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is an Amendment of some importance, and perhaps I should explain it fully to your Lordships. The opening proviso !is a matter of drafting, for the purpose of safeguarding powers that the London County Council already possess to recover penalties for chimney fires. The new subsection (2) has been put down to meet two points which have been raised regarding the application of the Bill to London, especially as respects the relations between the London Fire Brigade and the brigades serving adjoining areas. Under Clause 1 a fire authority, in lieu of providing and maintaining local fire brigade services on their own account, may enter into arrangements with another fire authority to provide for fire services on their behalf; but the Bill as it now stands would not permit of such an arrangement being made with the London County Council. The London County Council have been consulted, and agree that this gap in the Bill as it now stands should be filled. The House will recall that Clause 1 (5) of the Bill at present makes no provision for the co-operation of the London County Council and the London Fire Brigade in measures for mutual assistance for dealing with exceptional fires. Section 49 of the London County Council (General Powers) Act, 1936, provides very similar machinery to that in the Bill, as respects the London County Council and fire authorities adjoining or near the Council's borders, and the object of tins Amendment is to make any necessary adaptations. I might mention, in conclusion, that the London County Council 1122 have been consulted on these Amendments, and they concur in them.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 21, leave out lines 16 and 17, and insert the said proviso and subsection (2).— (The Earl of Munster,)
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, on behalf of the London County Council, I should just like to thank the noble Earl for the Amendment that he has put down, and also for meeting the point which I raised on the Committee stage of the Bill. The London County Council is now absolutely safeguarded against the danger that it might lose its power to recover penalties in respect of fires in chimneys.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to insert at the end of the clause:
(4) Save as is in this section provided, this Act shall not apply to the administrative county of London or to the London County Council.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 37, at end, insert the said new subsection (4).— (The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 28:
§ Application to Scotland.
§ (4) The Secretary of State may, after consultation with the county council of any of the following counties videlicet: Argyll, Caithness, Inverness, Orkney, Ross and Cromarty, Sutherland, Zetland, or with the town council of any burgh situated in any such county, by order direct that the provisions of this Act in their application to such county or burgh shall have effect as if—
- (a) subsections (1) to (5) of Section one and Sections eight to thirteen were omitted; and
- (b) the word "may" were substituted for the word "shall"—
- (i) where that word first occurs in subsection (1) of Section two; and
- (ii) in subsection (8) of the said section.
§ THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIE had given Notice of Amendments in subsection (4), to leave out "the" ["the county council" and insert "any," and to leave out "of any of the following counties videlicet: Argyll, Caithness, Inverness, Orkney, Ross and Cromarty, Sutherland, Zetland." The noble Earl said: My Lords, Clause 28, subsections 1123 (4) and (5), as amended in Committee, and as I understand them, enable the seven Highland counties to set up special fire brigade districts in the more populous places, in order that the mountainous regions and the islands should not be rated for fire fighting services, appliances and apparatus, which cannot be provided owing to inaccessibility. The object of this Amendment is to extend this concession to all the Scottish counties, most of which, in this respect, are practically in the same position as the Highland counties. Take Lanarkshire, for instance, the most important industrial county in Scotland. In what is called the Upper Ward there are large districts of the whole County where fire engines could not possibly manœuvre, even if there were water, which there often is not. On the other hand, a small county like Clackmannan, which is almost wholly industrial, would, if allowed to form special fire brigade districts, almost certainly form one district for the whole County, with the burghs therein, which are within a reasonable distance of each other.
§
The Amendment may be clumsily drafted, as I am an amateur in these matters and I am advised that the paragraph should be re-drafted to read:
(4) The Secretary of State may, after consultation with the county council of any county or with the town council of any burgh, by order direct that the provisions of this Act in their application to such county or burgh shall have effect as if"—
It is no doubt too late to substitute that to-day, but if the Amendment is accepted that could be altered on the Third Reading. At any rate, as I have stated, the object of this Amendment is perfectly clear. It is that the concessions proposed for the seven crofting or Highland counties should be extended to all the Scottish counties.
§
Amendments moved—
Page 22, line 22, leave out ("the") and insert ("any") and leave out from ("council") to ("or") in line 24.—(The Earl of Mar and Kellie.)
VISCOUNT ELIBANKWhen my noble friend says "the Secretary of State" I suppose he refers to the Secretary of State for Scotland.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALYes, the Secretary of State for Scotland.
THE EARL OF AIRLIEMy Lords, if I may say one word, I must for my own part admit that I had considerable misgivings from the Scottish point of view when this measure came before your Lordships' House, because it seemed as if unnecessary expenditure was to be thrown upon the local authorities, not only those in the Highland counties which have already been mentioned, but also those in the counties of which the noble Earl has just spoken. But, with two other members of your Lordships' House, I had an interview with the Secretary of State for Scotland, who was kind enough to see us, and from that conversation I am quite satisfied in my own mind that no unreasonable measures will be insisted upon in any of the districts such as have been mentioned by the noble Earl, where it can be shown by the local authority that they would be neither workable nor in the best interests of local government. For that reason I think it is not necessary to amend this clause as the noble Earl has proposed, and I for one would like to support it as it stands.
§ LORD MANCROFTMy Lords, I think the two noble Lords who have just spoken have given your Lordships to understand that this Amendment applies to Scotland, but it seems to me that the effect of an Amendment such as this will apply to more than Scotland. Unless the county councils which the Bill specifically mentions are kept in the word "any" might apply to any English county council.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, if the noble Lord will look at subsection (1) he will see that the whole of Clause 28 applies only to Scotland. It begins thus:
The provisions of this section shall have effect for the purpose of the application of this Act to Scotland,As I understand it everything that follows in the clause applies to Scotland only.
§ LORD MANCROFTI am much obliged. I am sorry.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALMy Lords, the object of this Amendment is to alter the Scottish Application Clause so as to extend the special provisions regarding the seven crofter counties and the burghs therein to every county and burgh in Scotland. Suggestions that this should be done, at any 1125 rate for landward areas, or alternatively that the list of counties specified in Clause 28 (4) should be extended so as to include counties such as Angus, Banff, Berwick and Perthshire, were made during the Committee stage of the Bill, and I undertook to ask the Secretary of State to reconsider the matter with a view to his giving, if possible, an undertaking, but I did warn the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, that I did not think that reconsideration would be likely to result in any such Amendment as this being accepted. The Secretary of State has carefully considered these proposals, and has reached the conclusion that he would not be justified in asking Parliament to confer power upon him to exempt any county or burgh, other than the seven crofter counties and burghs therein, from the compulsory provisions of the Bill. These seven counties present special problems in the way either of numerous islands, or of sparsity of population and length and difficulty of road and telephone communications, and their special circumstances may justify the exercise of the power of exemption which is given by Clause 28 (4).
There are of course certain other counties with relatively sparse population, or with tracts of moorland and mountain, but these counties differ so much from the crofter counties in their size, or their means of communication, or in the number of burghs situated within or near their boundaries, that they cannot be placed in the same category. For instance, Angus has eight burghs, Banff has eleven, Berwick has four and Perthshire has eleven. All of these burghs are separate fire authorities under the Bill, and will be under a duty to co-operate with the county councils in the provision of fire services. The Secretary of State is satisfied that the provisions of the Bill are so drawn as to enable full account to be taken of differences in the requirements of, and the facilities available in, different kinds of locality, as has already been stated to the House, there is no intention to subject rural areas—for instance, areas which would have to do their fire fighting with natural or static water instead of water from Water mains—to the kind of standard which would be appropriate and feasible only in urban areas.
At the same time, the Government fully recognise the need for adequate consulta- 1126 tion before standards of efficiency are prescribed under Clause 1 (2). The Bill has hitherto provided for consultation, as regards standards of efficiency in Scotland, with the Scottish Central Advisory Council for Fire Services—a body which will include representatives of Scottish county and town councils. In order further to safeguard the position of local authorities an Amendment to Clause 24 has been put down in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Munster, which will make it compulsory upon the Secretary of State, before making any Order prescribing standards of efficiency, to consult not only that Central Advisory Council but also such associations representing county or town councils as appear to him to be concerned, and, in addition, any individual county or town council with whom consultation appears to him to be desirable. This new provision, coupled with the fact that Orders prescribing standards of efficiency are open to challenge and annulment by Parliament, give local authorities full protection against the imposition of impracticable or unduly onerous requirements. In these circumstances, and in view of that further explanation, I very much hope that the noble Earl will feel inclined to withdraw his Amendments.
THE EARL OF MAR AND KELLIEMy Lords, I am glad I have raised the question, because we have had a very full and lucid explanation of the clause and of the Bill from my noble friend Lord Strathcona, and also because my noble friend Lord Airlie, who lives in Angus, which is one of the counties I had in mind as being mostly a Highland county, is satisfied. Therefore, with the leave of the House, I will withdraw my Amendments.
§ Amendments, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Third Schedule[Enactments Repealed]:
§ THE EARL OF MUNSTERMy Lords, the two next Amendments are both drafting and I beg to move.
§ Amendments moved—
§ Page 29, line 35, at end insert—
| ("25 & 26 Vict.c.ccv. | The Salford Improvement Act, 1862 | Section two hundred and seventy-four, so far as it relates to payments by owners of property.") |
§ Page 31, third column, line 6, at beginning insert ("and of a").—(The Earl of Munster.)
§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.
§ Then, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.