HL Deb 19 July 1938 vol 110 cc943-52

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, I do not think this Bill need detain the House for any great length of time. It does not raise any important question of principle since what is proposed is, in short, an extension of various provisions of the Milk Acts, 1934 to 1937, which would otherwise expire at the end of September next. When I submitted a similar extending measure in this House nearly a year ago I said, in reply to a question by the noble Lord, Lord Addison, that I expected that my right honourable friend the Minister of Agriculture would very shortly be issuing a statement on the Government's long-term milk policy. I therefore hoped it was the last time on which I should have to ask your Lordships to agree to a temporary extension of the Milk Acts pending the introduction of the more comprehensive long-term proposals. The first part of that expectation has been fulfilled, but unfortunately not the second.

It was the Government's hope and intention to introduce for the consideration of Parliament this Session the necessary legislation to put the comprehensive proposals into effect but, as your Lordships are aware, exceptional demands have been made on Parliamentary time in another place, and consequently the Government have reluctantly come to the decision that it would hardly be proper to ask Parliament to consider and pass at such a late stage in the Session a measure as important and complex as the longterm milk legislation must necessarily be. Consultations with the various interests concerned have taken place and will continue to take place, and the Government hope to introduce the necessary Bills into Parliament early next Session. In the meantime, as I have said, existing provisions under the Milk Acts, 1934 to 1937, for safeguarding the milk industry, will expire on September 30 next. This extending Bill is primarily designed to continue the existing provisions for a further period of twelve months.

I do not think I need repeat to your Lordships the considerations which were advanced in favour of these previous Milk Acts. It is only necessary to say of Clause 1 of the Bill that it is proposed that there should be a continuation for a further twelve months—that is, until the end of September, 1939—of the system of Exchequer payments to Milk Marketing Boards in respect of milk used for manufacture. Clause 2 proposes an extension for twelve months of the milk-in-schools scheme, and the Government attach the very greatest importance to the continuation of this scheme. In addition, it is hoped that a scheme will shortly be introduced under which local authorities will be able to secure liquid milk at reduced prices for the purpose of their maternity and child welfare arrangements. The Bill proposes that an extra £750,000 should be made available by Exchequer grants in respect of these cheap milk schemes, which compares favourably with the previous average of £500,000 per year.

Clause 3 carries out the proposal contained in paragraph 8 of the White Paper of last July, that the Milk Marketing Boards should be released from any liability accruing after the 30th September last to repay to the Exchequer the advances made under the Milk Acts in respect of manufactured milk. It is obviously desirable to give effect to this particular proposal of the White Paper in the present Bill, as otherwise we should shortly have to ask the Milk Marketing Boards for repayments on milk manufactured in certain months of the current year from which it was eventually proposed to release them. The remaining provisions of the Bill are consequential on the first three clauses.

Before I resume my place I should like to refer to another proposal in the White Paper of last July. Your Lordships will recall that it was proposed in the White Paper that over a period of five years the Exchequer should make certain contributions towards the cost of increased premiums to be paid by Milk Marketing Boards in respect of various categories of quality milks (that is, accredited milk, T.T. milk and milk from attested herds). When the present Bill was first published it was represented to my right honourable friends the Minister of Agriculture and also the Secretary of State for Scotland that many milk producers have, during the past year, incurred expenditure in bringing their herds and methods of milk production up to "attested" or "designated" milk standards, in the anticipation that these increased premiums would become available as from the beginning of next October. The proposed Exchequer assistance towards these increased premiums for quality milks is regarded by the Government as one feature of a comprehensive and balanced policy, and it is essential, in their view, that the proposals should be enacted substantially as a whole. Accordingly the Government are unwilling to include in the short-term measure any provision for Exchequer assistance towards premiums on quality milks.

On the other hand, my right honourable friend has announced that if Milk Marketing Boards should decide, as from October 1 next, to pay increased premiums and to allow increased rebates for quality milks on scales approved by Ministers and corresponding to those foreshadowed in the White Paper, the Government will be willing to commend to Parliament, as part of the forthcoming longterm legislation, a provision authorising retrospective assistance from the Exchequer with a view to putting the Boards in the same financial position as regards Exchequer assistance from October 1, 1938, as they would have been in if the long-term legislation had been passed this Session, as was originally intended, and not the short-term emergency measure which is now before your Lordships' House. I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Feversham.)

LORD MARLEY

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friends I should like to say a word or two upon this important Bill. The noble Earl who moved the Second Reading pointed out quite rightly that no change of principle was involved, and of course the Labour Party in general supports the principles behind the Bill. The introduction of this type of measure, which I might call legislation by temporary extensions, I personally welcome. I think it is an extremely good way to make laws, because it gives us a chance of examining what I might call the attempts to deal with a difficult industry and to check up, so to speak, the success or otherwise of the various parts of the machinery of organisation in connection with milk production. Therefore personally I rather like to see this postponement of the substantial measure. But of course one must examine with an open mind how the work has proceeded and how far in fact it has been successful. This sort of Bill does give us an opportunity to look into some of the results that have so far been achieved.

I think the Minister of Agriculture, in the House of Commons, did lay claim to some advantageous work, particularly in connection with that part of the Bill referred to by the noble Earl as the milk-in-schools scheme. I noticed that he did not give us the figures involved, and I hope the noble Viscount, Lord Astor, will say a word on this later on. I am sorry to see him shake his head, because I should have liked to hear him make some contribution to this very important subject, which he has made so much his own in the past. The Minister of Agriculture said that something like 2,750,000 children were getting milk now, that they were consuming about 23,000,000 gallons of milk in a year, and that he hoped that quantity would be raised to 25,000,000 gallons. Provision is made in this Bill for a continuation and an extension of the milk-in-schools scheme.

During the discussion of a previous measure I interested myself in doing some brief arithmetical calculations from which I found that these vast millions of gallons of milk amount in fact to 186 of a pint of milk per child per day. Compare that with a country like the United States of America, where something like an average of 4 pints per child per day is consumed instead of 186 in this country. If the hope of the Minister is in fact realised and the total consumption rises to 25,000,000 gallons, that raises the consumption of milk per child per day to 19 or nearly one fifth of a pint of milk a day. I know the noble Earl will say that they do not get any milk during the holidays or on Sundays, and I suppose it is thought that they do not need milk on those days, but I myself should think that if milk is desirable and necessary on school days it is conceivable that it would be desirable also on Sundays and even during holidays. It would be interesting to know whether, in the development foreshadowed by this Bill during the next year, it would be possible to secure an arrangement for the consumption of milk on a rather larger scale by school children.

Some time ago a number of your Lordships were invited by the Secretary of State for War, a very energetic Minister about whom we read and hear so much, to go and see an admirable scheme which had been worked in a special recruits' training depot in Canterbury. It was found that some recruits for the Services were not up to physical requirements and they were put into this special place in Canterbury and fed up. At the end of six or eight or ten weeks it was found that these boys of sixteen and seventeen had gained something like three-quarters of an inch in height, two inches round the chest and some eighteen pounds in weight. Just by being given good food and plenty of milk they were able to meet Army recruiting requirements. The noble Earl the Leader of the House, reminds me that they also had exercise. Incidentally, I may say that I was surprised to learn that one-third of these would-be recruits were unable to read or write. One-third of these recruits, all of whom had been through our very expensive elementary school system, were unable to read, and the schoolmaster told me that in his opinion the reason was that they had never had enough to eat—and therefore obviously not enough milk to drink—to make them fit enough to profit by the education given in the elementary schools. That, of course, is a disastrous state of affairs. It seems to me to indicate that were it possible to secure an increase in the amount of milk consumed in the schools, we might diminish the cost of this special recruiting depot at Canterbury and make it unnecessary to feed recruits specially in order to make up for lack of sufficient milk while they were children at school.

There is one other point I want to raise. I am anxious to have a little information from the noble Earl as to the type of milk which is supplied in the schools. I am not in any way criticising now, but only asking for simple information as to the type of milk supplied in the schools. I realise at once that I should know this and that it is probably entirely due to my ignorance that I am not adequately informed on the matter. I get a paper every month which I think is called National Safety First Milk, and really it sometimes makes me feel quite ill to read it. In the current number, which I received a week ago, there is a picture of what are called "desliming" machines which take the slime out of fresh milk. It is said that this slime, when analysed, is found to be composed of blood and manure and dirt and grease and hairs and other horrible things which it is the object of this particular organisation to bring to our notice in order that we may support pasteurised milk.

I do not profess to know very much about these things. Personally I drink almost any milk that is put before me, and I am perfectly certain that milk is better than most other drinks—I hope so, anyway—in spite of these terrible things we are told about. What I would like to know is whether pasteurised milk is supplied to children in schools, or, if not, what steps are taken to see that the milk which we are now being asked to pay for is in fact absolutely pure and clean and good and not likely to cause any illness to the children who drink it. It is the greatest pity that we have not got as pure a milk supply as they have in the United States of America. In this country we know that more than 40 per cent. of our herds are infected, whereas in America we know that the proportion is rather under 4 per cent. It would be interesting to have from the noble Earl just that bit of information as to the safety and cleanliness of the milk supplied to the children.

Another question I would like to ask him is about the nomenclature that is now applied to milk. Years ago I knew "T.T." and "Certified" and "Grade A," but now these names have been changed and it would be interesting to have a clear statement as to the various kinds of milk that are being supplied—something quite simple that even our limited intelligence can take in, something that we can remember. I hope the noble Earl will be able to tell us exactly what is the type of milk which is being supplied now, how clean it is, how safe it is, how much of it comes from reactors and how much from tuberculin-tested Cows.

The only other point I want to make is a protest against the delay in the supply of milk to the maternity services. I think it is a tragedy that we should have any delay in the provisions for the supply of milk to expectant and nursing mothers. The noble Earl told us that provision is made for a small sum of money for this service, but there is a permanent loss to the country in a very important factor in the production interests of this country, the production of children, which is apparently suffering from delay. I hope that question will be dealt with by other members of your Lordships' House, who must see the danger in not using, at the earliest possible moment, means which are now understood to be necessary for supplying milk to nursing and expectant mothers.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

My Lords, the noble Lord has put some specific questions to me which arise not so much out of the renewal of the provisions of the Milk Acts as out of general considerations in regard to the expansion of the consumption of milk. Perhaps it may be well, in view of the larger issues which the noble Lord has raised, if I briefly enumerate the main points of a long-term milk policy. The underlying principle must be, in the first place, that the only sure foundation for the prosperity of the milk industry is an increased consumption of liquid milk. To this end it is necessary to provide for consumers generally a permanent improvement in the quality of milk, and of course to take all practical measures to secure reductions both in the cost of production and in the cost of distribution. Steps must also be taken to continue, and, where practicable, to extend, the provision of cheap milk for those classes of consumers to whom milk would be of special value.

The noble Lord has asked a question concerning the numbers of children in the elementary schools receiving milk and the quantities of milk that they receive. The returns which have just been compiled by the Board of Education show that the number of children in public elementary schools in England and Wales taking milk under the milk-in-schools scheme at the end of March last—on March 31—was 2,672,000, which is, I understand, 161,000 more than on the corresponding date last year.

LORD MARLEY

Are those figures for England and Wales?

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

Yes, these figures are for England and Wales. I should point out that this increase of 161,000 is in spite of the fact that the total number of children on the register has decreased by about 87,000. The percentage of children on the register taking milk has gone up from 49 to 53. I think that all sides of the House will appreciate that that is a distinct improvement on the earlier months, and to that extent shows that the younger generation in the elementary schools are appreciating the milk which they have the benefit of taking.

The noble Lord also inquired of me the type of milk which is supplied to the elementary schools. He will, I expect, be aware that both the source and quality of milk have to be approved by the medical officer of health in each area. In the larger urban areas and cities the medical officer of health frequently insists upon pasteurised milk where it is available. In those areas that are served by a rural district the milk of attested herds often finds its way to the elementary schools. For instance, in my own area of Yorkshire, where attestation has not yet become predominant, one large attested herd has as the main function of its business the supply of clean milk to the elementary schools in that district.

LORD MARLEY

I do not want it to be thought that I am suggesting that pasteurised milk is necessarily better than clean milk. I only want to know, for information, what is the type of milk which is being supplied, because I am surprised that the noble Earl rather suggested that everybody would try to supply pasteurised milk, apparently as a means of avoiding the necessity for clean milk.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

No, I did not mean to make that implication from the standpoint of the Department which I represent. I was telling your Lordships' House that the medical officers of health, according to their lights, generally insist that in the urban areas pasteurised milk should be used, which, of course, is quite a different point of view from that which the noble Lord and many others of your Lordships share. Your Lordships would be interested to know of the developments in the attestation scheme, which has been consideraably expanded since the passing of the Agriculture Act this time last year. Now there are—I am speaking from memory—1,700 herds in England and Wales that have passed the final test, and there are approximately 2,000 herds which are undergoing the test. These figures, compared with the number of herds which had passed that test two years back, show the great incentive that has been given to the producers of milk of this country to improve the standard of their milk. That alone would point to the fact that the farmers throughout the country are appreciating more and more that, if consumption is to be increased, the first predominant necessity is to obtain first-class clean milk.

The noble Lord then raised the question of the designations for milk. It is correct to say that to those who have not had the opportunity, or inclination, to follow closely the new developments, the different titles are somewhat confusing. The first heading is "attestation," which is the most difficult to qualify for, and for which State assistance is now given freely by the provision of veterinary officers, going to make the inspections. Then there is the T.T. milk, and the accredited milk with which the noble Lord will be familiar, because the accredited milk is, to put it shortly, to all intents and purposes what was known as the Grade A milk. It would take up too much of your Lordships' time if I were to give a detailed explanation of the exact manner in which the designations are distinguished, but I should be very pleased to provide the noble Lord with the information that he may require.

LORD MARLEY

I am very much obliged.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM

The noble Lord has also referred to the increased sum that has to be devoted under the existing Bill to schemes authorised by local authorities, not only for children attending elementary schools but also for nursing and expectant mothers. It is a feature of the Bill that, in order to give acceleration to this service, an extra £250,000 is being devoted to these schemes until the long-term measure is placed before Parliament. I hope that I have in some respects answered some of the specific points which were put to me by the noble Lord opposite.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.