Lords Sitting of 23 March 1937

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

HYDROGEN CYANIDE (FUMIGATION) BILL. [H.L.]
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVA: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to regulate the fumigation of premises and articles with hydrogen cyanide, and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Marquess of Dufferin and Ava.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (FINANCIAL PROVISIONS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments agreed to.

DOVER ELECTRICITY (EXTENSION) ORDER, 1937.
THE EARL OF ERNE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Erne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CHORLEY GAS ORDER, 1937.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SHEFFIELD GAS (No. 2) ORDER, 1936.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee, be approved, with modifications.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Thursday last, be approved, with the modifications proposed by the Select Committee.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BEDFORD) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (COLWYN BAY) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
NEWCASTLE - UPON - TYNE CORPORATION (TROLLEY VEHICLES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (EAST HERT-FORDSHIRE JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WALTHAM JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (WISBECH JOINT ISOLATION HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (EALING EXTENSION) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (SOMERSET AND WILTS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

AGRICULTURAL WAGES (REGULATION) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Establishment of agricultural wages committees and an Agricultural Wages Board.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act the Department of Agriculture for Scotland (in this Act referred to as the Department) shall, as soon as may be, divide Scotland into districts and establish an agricultural wages committee for each district, and an Agricultural Wages Board for Scotland, to be called the Scottish Agricultural Wages Board.
(3) The Department may, if they think it expedient, from time to time vary the boundaries and number of the districts into which Scotland is divided under subsection (1) of this section and may make such provision as is necessary in consequence of any such variation, with regard to the establishment of committees for the districts affected by the variation
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL)THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL) moved, in subsection (1), after "as soon as may be," to insert "by order." The noble Lord said: My Lords, as far as the Amendments on the Paper in my name are concerned they all really hang together, except that in line 19, to which I shall refer later when we come to it. Briefly their effect is that the division of Scotland into districts for the purpose of wage regulation shall be done by an order of the Department of Agriculture for Scotland, which will be laid before Parliament and be subject to the negative Resolution procedure. By the Amendments proposed in Clause 1, subsection (3), any subsequent changes will be subject to the same procedure, and will be further conditional upon the

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assent of the wages committees who may be concerned.
I will explain as clearly as I can the reasons why the Government have decided upon this procedure rather than that suggested at the Committee stage of this Bill by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, of which the effect would have been to schedule the districts in the Bill itself. Your Lordships will recall that on the Committee stage I announced that the Department of Agriculture for Scotland would immediately invite the Scottish agricultural organisations (representing both farmers and workers) to confer with them in regard to this and other matters arising out of the Bill. The discussions have taken place, and in the course of them the Department found that both parties were emphatic on the point that as much flexibility as possible should be preserved in regard to future variation. As the House is aware the number of districts that the Government have in mind is twelve. It is quite impossible, without largely increasing that number, to secure completely homogeneous districts. It is undesirable on financial grounds to subdivide indefinitely, and there is really no need for a large number of districts when regard is paid to the powers of a committee under Clause 2, subsection (2), to deal separately with special classes and special areas within the district. At the same time it is clearly desirable, from the point of view of simplicity in working, that the districts should be as homogeneous within themselves as possible.
At the beginning we have no choice but to proceed by trial and error. The Department hope to avoid error as far as possible, but they are faced with a number of suggestions which from the nature of the case are mutually incompatible. Further consultations with the agricultural bodies will take place, and the first determination will be made of course with every care. But, even so, subsequent adjustments may well be necessary in the light of experience, and in these circumstances the Government think it undesirable to enshrine the first determination of districts in the Act of Parliament. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, after ("as soon as may be") insert ("by order").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal).
LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I would like to thank the noble Lord for the way in which he has met us on this and other Amendments, and indeed for the way in which he has met us on all the points raised during the whole course of the debates on the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 9, after ("and") insert ("shall").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "may" and after "expedient" to insert "may on receipt of resolutions in that behalf passed by the several committees concerned." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is to carry out a pledge we gave at the Committee stage to put into legal form an Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, which we were glad to accept in principle.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, leave out ("may") and after ("expedient") insert ("may on receipt of resolutions in that behalf passed by the several committees concerned").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the next two Amendments are consequential. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 1, line so, after ("from time to time") insert ("by order")
Page 1, line 25, at end, insert the following new subsection:
("(4) Every order made by the Department under subsection (1) or subsection (3) of this section shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament forthwith, and if an Address to His Majesty is agreed to by either House of Parliament within the next subsequent twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after any such order is laid before it praying that the order may be annulled, it shall thenceforth he void but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder or the making of a new order").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule:

AGRICULTURAL WAGES (REGULATION) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]

  SCHEDULE.
  Constitution and Proceedings of Agricultural Wages Committees and the Agricultural Wages Board.
  Agricultural Wages Committees.
  1. A committee shall consist of not more than eight and not less than five members representing employers and an equal number of members representing workers in agriculture in the district for which the committee act (in this Act referred to as representative members), and of a chairman. In addition, the Department may, if at any time they deem it expedient, appoint two independent members.
  2. The representative members shall be nominated or elected in the manner prescribed by regulations made under this Schedule.
  LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved, in paragraph 1, after "employers," to insert "and being themselves employers in the district." The noble Lord said: My Lords, although the Amendments which I have put on the Paper do not precisely go together, I will with your Lordships' permission say all I have to say on the first Amendment. The point is that the method of election of these local committees has not yet been settled. There is a question whether there should be nomination by representative bodies or free election. I understand that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has a statement to make on the subject, which I hope will be satisfactory, and therefore I will formally move this Amendment.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 12, line 7, after ("employers") insert ("and being themselves employers in the district").—(Lord Saltoun.)
  LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, these matters also have been discussed with the representative bodies to which I have just referred. The farmers would accept the position that the employers' representatives should be working farmers; but on the other hand it appears that the farmers agree with the workers' organisation that it would not be practicable to lay down any hard and fast rule with regard to the representation of the workers. I am assured that the Farm Servants' Union's policy would be to secure the appointment, wherever possible, of working farm servants, but it was pointed out that in many areas it would be difficult to secure a full representation of farm servants capable of regular attendance at the meet-
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  ings. I am told that in some highland areas, under the Corn Production Act scheme, a local minister or schoolmaster was appointed to represent the workers, and that men of this kind proved to be the most valuable members of committees. Moreover, previous experience has shown that for smooth working of the committees it is often very desirable that one of the representative members of each side should be a person who can undertake secretarial work. In the case of the employees—and may be in that of the employers too—it might be found practically impossible for this duty to be undertaken efficiently by a man absorbed in the day-to-day work of the farm. In all the circumstances it seems desirable that the Bill should not deal categorically With this point.
  It may, perhaps, assist the noble Lord if I now state in general terms the Government's position in this matter. It is the Government's desire that reasonable men on both sides, and as far as possible men closely conversant with the actual problems involved, should be selected. It is also the desire of the Government that those selected should really represent the opinion of those for whom they will speak, and that no organisation should consider that such appointments are in any way its perquisite. Perhaps I may mention that I emphasise that point because my attention was drawn to it in a letter I received from the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, who at the same time expressed his regret that he was unable to be present to mention the matter himself in debate to-day. This will admittedly raise difficult questions in areas where membership of any organisation is non-existent or very small indeed, or where more than one organisation could claim to be representative. In such a case the rival claims would certainly have to receive fair consideration. The noble Lord's Amendment shows, however, how difficult it will be to bring these considerations within the four corners of a Statute. With the assurance of the Government's intention which I have just given it will perhaps be possible for the noble Lord to withdraw the Amendment.
  LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his statement. I should just like to say that I hope it will be possible for the chairman of a local

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  committee to appoint his own secretary. Subject to that, I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD SALTOUN: My Lords, I do not move the other Amendments standing in my name on the Paper.

BRITISH SHIPPING (CONTINUANCE OF SUBSIDY) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

MERCHANT SHIPPING BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, in moving that this Bill be read a third time, I should like to remind your Lordships that I promised on the Committee stage of the Bill, in answer to my noble friend Viscount Bertie, that further consideration would be given to his suggestion that the provisions of Clause r of the Bill with regard to overloading a British ship should be extended to apply to foreign ships. As I explained to your Lordships at the time there are two difficulties about this. In the first place, we are legislating for British ships wherever they may be, and on that point I may say that the need for legislation arises not so much in United Kingdom ports—where overloading is perhaps less likely to go undetected than anywhere else in the world, and where if it is detected action can be taken under the provisions of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1932—as in other ports of the world, particularly those where supervision is for one reason or another not so strict as in this country. The second reason is that, whereas the overloading of a foreign ship in our ports has a reasonable chance of being detected and dealt with, there are no means of detecting or of dealing with the foreign ship which succeeds in leaving our ports in an overloaded condition. Once this has happened the authorities who should deal with her are the authorities of the country to which she belongs.
I gather, however, that my noble friend's anxiety was that there might be an incentive to a man who wished to over-
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load his ship to charter a foreign ship so that he might escape penalties imposed by this Bill. The answer is that overloading does not arise quite in this way. A ship is not chartered for the purpose of being overloaded, but a particular ship may be overloaded if opportunity arises and if the persons responsible think that they can escape detection. The risk of detection in a United Kingdom port is precisely the same whether the ship is British or foreign, and the consequences of detection are the same in either case. The theoretical advantage which the foreign ship has, owing to the fact that if she escapes detection she does not commit an offence against United Kingdom law in proceeding to sea overloaded, is not one which we think is likely to appeal to a charterer when he has to decide whether to charter a United Kingdom ship or a foreign ship. The real fear in the mind of a man who deliberately overloads is the fear of detection before he sails. The risk of detection after he sails is much less and is not likely to affect his course of action to the extent of deciding the nationality of the ship he will charter.
It is true that this Bill imposes penalties upon a British ship if she proceeds to sea overloaded from a port in the United Kingdom, but the case which gave rise to this particular clause and the case with which the clause is really intended to deal is the case of the British ship which overloads, not in the United Kingdom, but abroad. So far as the United Kingdom is concerned, the law as it stands is probably sufficient to deal with most cases, although it is, of course, conceivable that cases of overloading in the United Kingdom may be dealt with under it; but in a general way it may be taken that the law as it stands, coupled with the supervision exercised at British ports, is in practice sufficient to deal with overloading at home, whether that overloading takes place on a British ship or on a foreign ship. With that explanation, which I hope will satisfy my noble friend, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Bill read 3a.
Clause 3 [Short title and citation]:
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon

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the passing of the Merchant Shipping (Spanish Frontiers Observation) Act and is quite formal. I need say no more upon it, I think. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, lines 22 and 23, leave out ("1936, and those Acts and this Act") and insert ("1937, and shall be included among the Acts which").—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

PUBLIC HEALTH (DRAINAGE OF TRADE PREMISES) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order).
Clause 2 [Special restrictions on discharge of trade effluents]:
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I have to move a purely drafting Amendment, to bring the language in paragraph (a) of subsection (3) into line with that of paragraphs (c) and (d).
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 4, after ("which") insert ("any").—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, this is another drafting Amendment which I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19, after ("any") insert ("further").—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
C1ause 5 [By-laws of local authorities]:
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, this is a purely drafting Amendment to bring the language into line with that used elsewhere throughout the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 20, after ("of") insert ("any").—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment (Privilege) made.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
House adjourned at a quarter before five o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.
[From Minutes of March 23.]

LORD KINGSALE.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor that Michael William Robert, Baron Kingsale in the Peerage of Ireland, has established his succession to the Barony of Kingsale and his right to vote at any Elections of Representative Peers for Ireland which may be held in future under the Statutes in force relating thereto, to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor: Read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor made to the House of Lords this day, that Michael William Robert, Baron Kingsale in the Peerage of Ireland, has established his succession to the Barony of Kingsale and his right to vote at any Elections of Representative Peers for Ireland which may be held in future under the Statutes in force relating thereto, to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such Report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

GENERAL CEMETERY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
HASTINGS PIER.
Petition of the Hastings Pier Company under their Common Seal praying for leave to introduce a Bill to authorise the Hastings Pier Company to raise additional capital, and for other purposes; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto: Read, and referred to the Examiners.