§ Constitution and Proceedings of Agricultural Wages Committees and the Agricultural Wages Board.
§ Agricultural Wages Committees.
§ 1. A committee shall consist of not more than eight and not less than five members representing employers and an equal number of members representing workers in agriculture in the district for which the committee act (in this Act referred to as representative members), and of a chairman. In addition, the Department may, if at any time they deem it expedient, appoint two independent members.
§ 2. The representative members shall be nominated or elected in the manner prescribed by regulations made under this Schedule.
§ 3. The chairman of a committee shall be appointed annually by the committee, but, if the committee at any time fail to appoint a chairman within the prescribed period, the appointment shall be made by the Department.
§ A committee may nominate one or more persons for the office of vice-chairman, and the chairman may from time to time appoint one of those persons to preside in his absence.
§ A representative member of a committee shall not be qualified to be appointed chairman or vice-chairman of the committee of which he is a member.
§ LORD SALTOUN moved, in paragraph 1, after "employers," to insert "and being themselves employers in the district." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to prevent the political exploitation of either party and to prevent unnecessary disagreement. I am confident that if actual working farmers and farm servants found themselves together on the committee they would come to agreement far more readily 554 than will persons who make a profession and livelihood from this kind of work and whose interest it is to keep questions in agitation rather than allow them to be settled. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 7, after ("employers") insert ("and being themselves employed in the district.")—(Lord Saltoun.)
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINEMy Amendment, to leave out "nominated or" in paragraph 2, which appears later on the Paper, was really put down for much the same reason—to enable that these committees should be elected locally—and I shall have much pleasure in supporting the noble Lord's Amendment.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALIf I may take all these Amendments together, the effect of them would be that all the representative members of committees would be employers in the district and workers except that where the Farm Servants' Union could prove a 15 per cent. membership in the district that Union could nominate one workers' representative. I had better take the Amendment first of all of Lord Elgin and the question of nomination, because this Amendment would have the effect that all the representatives would necessarily be elected. The Caithness Committee contemplated exactly the opposite—namely, nomination by the representative organisations. No decision has yet been reached for or against either method. The effect of the situation—that is to say, that the organisation of both farmers and workers can claim only partially to represent the whole bodies of farmers and workers—rather suggests election, or a mixture of election and nomination, rather than nomination alone as the right solution. This, however, is one of the matters which must be discussed with the organisations. But it may be observed that without at least some measure of nomination the workers' side of a committee may be severely handicapped. This is recognised in the Amendments in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, and the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen. There is, moreover, always the possibility in the future that an organisation may become fully represented in a district, in which case the convenient and obvious method of appointment would be 555 therefore nomination by that organisation. The Government appreciate the point of the Amendment, which is to secure the principle that the representative members of the committee would represent the whole body of employers and workers and not only the organised parts of those bodies. The Government concur in this principle and will take care to secure that it is not lost sight of. On the other hand, they cannot, I am afraid, accept the Amendment, which would make nomination impossible in all circumstances.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI am afraid I took the question of nomination first. Of course all these Amendments really hang together. The effect of them would be that all the representative members of committees would be employers in the district and workers presumably also in the district, except that where the Farm Servants' Union could prove a 15 per cent. membership in the district that Union could nominate one workers' representative. This is, of course, a lopsided arrangement which may enable a Farm Servants' Union official to serve on the committee but not an official of the Farmers' Union. It is not necessarily an objection on that account, but it is a point on which the farmers' organisation are entitled to be consulted. The extent to which the Farm Servants' Union are to be permitted to nominate members of these committees is also clearly a matter which will have to be discussed with them. The Government's intention is to embody in Regulations the arrangements arrived at by the Union and such Regulations would be laid before Parliament. There are obviously difficulties in embarking upon such negotiations before the terms of the legislation are settled.
Nevertheless, in view of the interest taken by noble Lords in this matter, which I quite understand, steps are now being taken to meet the Union at an early date with a view to discussing the points which have arisen. It may be that this discussion will enable us to indicate before the Bill leaves your Lordships' House the lines on which Regulations are likely to proceed, but it is 556 clearly desirable that the Bill itself should not contain provisions making it impossible without amending legislation to alter the arrangement at some future date when conditions may have materially changed or when experience may have indicated that they require modification. On that account I am afraid I cannot accept these Amendments.
THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIRI am rather disappointed by the noble Lord's reply because as things are at present the whole negotiations for wages take place between masters and employees—amicably, too. Here you take away the possibility of that continuing. It seems to me very desirable that there should be a definite undertaking that members of the committee shall be farmers in actual practice and employees in actual practice also. You do not want an outside influence on these committees. If you confine the committee to these two classes, who already arrange what the terms shall be, you will be continuing the practice which has been so successful in the past. It seems to me a great mistake to depart from what has been a very friendly arrangement every year for married men and every six months for unmarried men. I hope the noble Lord will find some means by which this friendly arrangement may be allowed to subsist in the new procedure which the Bill proposes. Quite frankly, I think the present procedure is far better than that proposed, but if you are going to change it I do ask that you should try and maintain what has been a very friendly arrangement between the parties concerned.
It is of the utmost importance in agriculture, especially when it is so liable to depression, that there shall be amicable relations between all the parties con-corned. To bring in an outside influence to decide what wages shall be paid is the way to upset the mutual good feeling which exists at the present time. Therefore I stress very strongly that it shall be laid down by regulation that the members of the committee shall be genuinely either employers actually working farms or employees actually working on farms. You do not want outside people at all. I should like to say one further word on the question of the Farm Servants' Union. As was pointed out in the Second 557 Reading debate that Union only represents 15 per cent. of the farm servants in Scotland. It would be quite unfair to give 15 per cent. of the men a representative on the committee and give other people with no organisation no representation at all. It would be far better to leave it out altogether than to introduce a foreign element. If, however, you do bring in a foreign element, then it might well be suggested that the National farmers' Union should have a special representative on each committee, or, as my noble friend Lord Saltoun proposed, that an organisation which is not the Farm Servants' Union should be allowed to have a representative I hope that the noble Lord will bear these representations in mind and try to meet us in the matter.
LORD SALTOUNAs the noble Lord, Lord Strathcona, touched on my next Amendment, perhaps; I might be allowed to intervene at this stage. The whole point is that we are being asked to give the Government a blank cheque and that we are never going to see how it is filled up. If these committees are to be appointed it is most important to know how they are to be appointed. It is essential to see that they are properly appointed, and nobody is better able than your Lordships to judge of the formation of such committees. If I understood the noble Lord rightly, he said that there would be negotiations with the Farm Servants' Union and that he could not tell us anything about the Amendment until they had consented. It is stated in the Departmental Committee's Report that the Farm Servants' Union has a membership of 15 per cent. of the farm servants, but I said in the Second Reading debate, and I still maintain, that it is doubtful if the membership is 5 per cent. in Aberdeenshire. If any society has a membership of 15 per cent. in Aberdeenshire then let it have a member on the local committee, but do not let it be laid down that no one else shall have representation on the committee. If your Lordships will look at Appendix 9 of the Report you will see that the scheme set out was one giving the Farm Servants' Union a representation on the local committee. I do not feel that I ought to accept the noble Lord's statement if the matter is to be left to a decision arrived at by negotiations between the Department and the Farm Servants' Union.
THE EARL OF ELGIN AND KINCARDINEThe noble Lord in his sympathetic reply got so near to saying that the matter would receive the Government's reconsideration, that I felt a little disappointed when in his peroration he said merely and bluntly that he was unable to accept any of the Amendments. I would like to stress the important point made by the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, with reference to the members of these committees being drawn from those actually engaged in the industry. That is important. Another important point, stressed by my noble friend Lord Saltoun, is that these committees should really represent the locality from which they are elected. If he would give us an assurance that, after further discussion with the bodies officially representing different parts of the industry, he will at a further stage of this Bill introduce some words to give effect to what I think we all desire, I should as far as I am concerned be prepared to withdraw my Amendment—but we have not yet reached it.
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI feel that I ought to apologise to your Lordships to a certain extent. I thought it would be to the convenience of all if I gave a general answer to the three Amendments, which all deal with this portion of the Schedule. I entirely agree with the sentiments expressed by the noble Marquess, Lord Aberdeen, and it is, I am sure, the object of the Government and of all members of your Lordships' House to do all we can to ensure that the widest and the wisest distribution is made in securing representatives for these committees. I will point out to your Lordships that what we are discussing at the moment on this Schedule is paragraph 2:
The representative members shall be nominated or elected in the manner prescribed by regulations made under this Schedule.As I have already told your Lordships, negotiations are taking place almost immediately. The Government are consulting others besides these organisations, and I very much hope that before the next stage of this Bill I shall be able to give your Lordships some indication of the lines upon which those Regulations are likely to be framed. Obviously more than that I cannot do at this stage today, and I cannot therefore accept the Amendment.
LORD SALTOUNIf I may raise the matter on a later stage, I shall beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved, in paragraph 3, to leave out "annually." The noble Marquess said: This is quite a different point. It would be a great mistake, if you got a good man to serve on the committee, to insist that he should retire at the end of one year. Although I am not quite sure, I understand that the idea is to appoint these committees for three years. It would obviously be much wiser, if you got a good man, that he should be chairman during the period for which the committee is set up; or, if one-third of the members are to retire each year, then it would still be advantageous for a chairman, if you could get a good one, to be chairman for three years, because that would give confidence to those who came before the committee. You would also probably get a very much better chairman if he knew that he was going to have responsibility for three years. Again, the annual appointment of a chairman might quite easily lead to unpleasant competition between members when the year was beginning to come to an end as to who should be the next chairman. I think it would be very much sounder to allow the chairman to be more or less permanent, or, at any rate, to leave out the word "annually," so as to enable him to continue in office for longer than one year without having to seek re-election. It is sounder in every sense of the word to have permanency, and therefore that a committee should have a settled policy to follow in its delicate work. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 16, leave out ("annually").—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALThese two Amendments in the name of the noble Marquess are concerned with the period of office of the chairman. The proposal that the period should be one year follows the practice in England. There is, of course, nothing to prevent the re-election of the chairman for a succession of periods. A great deal of responsibility will rest on the chairman, particularly in cases where it may prove impracticable to add to the committee the two independent members whom the 560 Department of Agriculture may appoint under paragraph 1 of the Schedule. The appointment of a chairman is normally to be made by the committee itself, and it therefore seems reasonable that the committee should decide how long the chairman should remain in office. The detailed procedure in regard to the tenure of office of representative members of the committees is not yet settled, and is a further matter for discussion with the interests concerned. If, however, the English model is followed, one-third of tie representative members will be due for retirement each year. If different persons are in fact appointed, it may quite well be that, in the third year at any rate, the chairman, unless appointed annually, may have ceased to be persona grata with the committee. This Amendment is therefore not necessary, and I am not prepared to accept it.
§ THE EARL OF STAIRMay I ask the noble Lord how you get a third of ten members?
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI am not very good at arithmetic, but I imagine that you would take the nearest third in every case.
§ On Question, Amendment negatived.
§ THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR moved, in paragraph 3, after "by the committee," to insert "and shall hold office for a period of three years." The noble Marquess said: I still hold that this would be a good thing do. It would give some permanency to the committee. The committee would learn much in its first year, and it would certainly be a mistake to have the committee for one year only. I am still of the opinion that it would command more respect from those who came before it if they knew that it had some permanency and followed some policy on which they could rely. Quite frankly I do not quite see why, because it is annual in England, it should be annual in Scotland. It is an entirely different system in Scotland, and I am still of opinion that a three-year period of office, certainly for the first three years, is very desirable in every sense of the word.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 17, after the first ("committee") insert ("and shall hold office for a period of three years").—(The Marquess of Aberdeen and Temair.)
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALI have already explained to the noble Lord the reason why I think it is undesirable to adopt his procedure, and I hope therefore that he will not press it.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ LORD SALTOUN moved, in paragraph 3, to leave out "Department" and insert "Sheriff of the district." The noble Lord said: The Schedule provides that if the two parties on the committee are unable to agree on the chairman, the chairman shall be appointed by the Department. The object of my Amendment is to make the chairman appointable by the Sheriff of the county. All through the Bill I notice an unwillingness to make use of the Sheriff, though there is nobody in the ordinary Scottish sheriffdom who is better able to make the appointment than the Sheriff. He knows the character, the reputation and the capacity of almost everybody of any note at all living within the borders of the county, and I suggest that he is a far more suitable person to make this appointment than the Department itself. After all, the Department's knowledge of the county is not nearly so intimate or so accurate as that which the Sheriff must necessarily possess, and I think it would be more satisfactory, even for the Department itself, to leave this appointment in the hands of the Sheriff. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 19, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Sheriff of the district").—(Lord Saltoun.)
§ LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYALThe authority proposed in this instance for the Department to appoint the chairman follows the English practice, and the Government see no reason for relegating the duty to the Sheriff, who really has no particular standing in this matter. Of course, before making such an appointment the Department will no doubt consult suitable persons in the district, but I think your Lordships will see that in this case the Sheriff is not necessarily the suitable person, and I hope the noble Lord will not press his Amendment. I have already met him once this afternoon on the question of the Sheriff, and I am afraid I cannot meet him in this instance.
LORD SALTOUNThough I still think it would be the best way of getting the 562 best men, I do not wish to press this Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Schedule agreed to.