FACTORIES BILL. (Hansard, 22 July 1937)

HL Deb 22 July 1937 vol 106 cc827-59 827

§ Amendments reported (according to Order).

§ Clause 2 [Overcrowding]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, although this Amendment seems to be of a formidable length, it is in fact only drafting. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 3, line 7, leave out from ("that") to the end of line 35 and insert ("if the chief inspector is satisfied that owing to the special conditions under which the work is carried on in any workroom in which explosive materials are manufactured or handled, the application of the provisions of this subsection to that workroom would be inappropriate or unnecessary, he may by certificate except the workroom from those provisions subject to any conditions specified in the certificate. (3) As respects any room used as a workroom at the date of the passing of this Act the last foregoing subsection shall, for the period of five years after that date and, if before the expiration of that period effective and suitable mechanical ventilation has been provided in the room, for a further period of five years, have effect as if for the reference therein to four hundred cubic feet there were substituted a reference to two hundred and fifty cubic feet: Provided that this subsection shall cease to apply to the room—

(a) if the room passes into the occupation of any person other than the person who was the occupier thereof at the passing of this Act, or his successor in the same business; or
(b) if, during the first of the said periods, the inspector for the district requires the provision of effective and suitable mechanical ventilation in the room and default is made in complying with the requirement; or
(c) if, during the second of the said periods or in a case where it has been provided in pursuance of the inspector's requirement during either of those periods, the effective and suitable mechanical ventilation provided in the room ceases to be maintained.")—(The Earl of Minister.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 3 [Temperature]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 27, after ("by") insert ("the last foregoing").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

828

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept that Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, the next is also a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 4, line 27, leave out ("(2) hereof").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept this Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 22 [Hoists and lifts]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 15, line 38, after ("(7)") insert ("inclusive").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept this Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 23 [Chains, ropes and lifting tackle]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 17, line 7, leave out from ("shall") to ("unless") in line 9 and insert ("be taken into use in any factory for the first time in that factory").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept this Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 24 [Cranes and other lifting machines]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 18, line 23, leave out from ("shall") to ("unless") in line 24 and insert ("be taken into use in any factory for the first time in that factory").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 29 [Steam boilers]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 24, line 39, leave out from ("shall"} to ("until") in line 40 and insert ("be 829 taken into use in any factory for the first time in that factory")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, this also is drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 24, line 41, leave out ("preceding") and insert ("foregoing").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I accept.

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 32:

§ Exceptions as to steam boilers, steam receivers and containers, and air receivers.

§ 32. The chief inspector may by certificate except from any of the provisions of the last three preceding sections of this Act any class or type of steam boiler, steam receiver steam container or air receiver to which he is satisfied that such provision cannot reasonably be applied. Any such exception may be unqualified or may be subject to such conditions as may be contained in the certificate.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL moved to leave out Clause 32 and insert the following new clause:

§ Exceptions as to steam boilers, steam receivers, and containers, and air receivers.

§ ".The Secretary of State may by order except from any of the provisions of the last, three preceding sections of this Act any class or type of steam boiler, steam receiver, steam container or air receiver, to which he is satisfied that such provision cannot be applied."

§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, I can explain the object of this Amendment in a very few words. It is to insert a new clause in place of Clause 32. The three preceding clauses—Clauses 29, 30 and 31—lay down certain minimum requirements which must be fulfilled by tubes and boilers concerned with providing either air or steam power, in order to safeguard the workers employed thereon. They further lay down that an inspector shall from time to time go round to see that these requirements are in fact fulfilled by the employers who use this sort of machinery. The danger of Clause 32 is that it appears to threaten to remove the safeguards that have been laid down in the preceding clauses. It allows exemptions on a certificate granted by the Chief Inspector of Factories, and the only criterion laid down for the Chief Inspector 830 to use when he has to decide whether or not to grant such a certificate is the reasonableness of the demand for any alteration that ought to be made to bring the machinery up to date. If he thinks the demand is unreasonable, and if he thinks it is reasonable to grant a certificate, then he does, and I suggest that some definition ought to be given on which the Chief Inspector can work, because it leaves far too much responsibility and discretion to the technicians who are concerned with the administration of this Act.

§ A further difficulty is this. According to the present procedure the Chief Inspector can grant a certificate, and then of course complaint can be made that certain boilers and so forth have been exempted; but that is unsatisfactory, and it would be much better if a complaint could be levelled, and public opinion could make itself felt, before the damage had been done. That is why this Amendment, this alternative procedure, is suggested, whereby no exemptions would be granted without an order made by the Secretary of State, and of course application for such order could be discussed before it was given. With these very few words I beg to move that this clause be here inserted.

§ Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 32 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Listowel.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the effect of this Amendment would be to transfer the power of granting these exemptions from the Chief Inspector to the Secretary of State, and I think this would be less appropriate, and not really necessary for the protection of the employees. I understand that the Amendment was suggested by a trade union representative who was apparently afraid that the Chief Inspector might grant I exemptions of a very wide scope, but what is in fact contemplated is that there will be some types of vessel falling within the definition of steam boiler, etc., but to which on technical grounds it would not be possible to apply the detailed requirements of these clauses in full. For instance, there may be some small types of vessel to which all the fittings mentioned in the clause could not be applied, or on which perhaps all the details of the examinations laid down for ordinary 831 cases could not be carried out—for example, steam tubes in bakers' ovens and small steam vulcanisers where the quantity of water may be so small that the whole of it is converted into steam, and a water gauge would be useless. The matter is thus a highly technical one. We suggest that it is therefore more appropriate that the procedure for exemption should be by certificate of the Chief Inspector, rather than by an order of the Secretary of State as proposed in the Amendment, and I hope that in view of this explanation the noble Earl will withdraw his Amendment.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for making it perfectly clear that as a general rule boilers and tubes used for this purpose will conform to the conditions laid down in the preceding clauses, and that exemptions will only be granted in exceptional cases. On that understanding I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Clause 34:

§ Means of escape in case of fire.

§ (14) In the application of this section to the administrative county of London—

§ (b) any factory or part thereof forming part of a building from all parts of which means of escape in case of fire are provided in accordance with the requirements of Part VIII of the London Building Act, 1930, shall be entitled to receive from the London County Council a certificate for the purposes of this section, and pending the receipt of the certificate, no offence shall be deemed to be committed by reason of the use of the factory while no certificate under this section is in force with respect thereto.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, these three Amendments are drafting Amendments.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 32, line 11, after ("use") insert ("as a factory")

§ Page 35, line 3, leave out ("are") and insert ("have been")

§ Page 35, line 5, after ("1930") insert ("and are maintained").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, at the end of paragraph (b) in subsection (14), to insert: 832 Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to any such factory or part thereof if, since the means of escape were provided, any action has been taken of which notice would, if this section had been in force and a certificate had been granted thereunder, have been required to be given to the council. The noble Earl said: My Lords, these words are inserted at this stage of the Bill to meet the requirements of the London County Council. I therefore beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 35, line 11, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 42:

§ Washing facilities.

§ 42.—(1) There shall be provided and maintained for the use of employed persons adequate and suitable facilities for washing which shall be conveniently accessible am] shall be kept in a clean and orderly condition.

§ (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations exempt any class or description of factory from the requirements of this section where he is satisfied that having regard to the special conditions under which work is carried on in that class or description of factory, compliance therewith would be unreasonable, and the superintending inspector for the division may by certificate exempt, subject to any conditions specified in the certificate, a factory from the requirements of this section where he is satisfied that, having regard to the special circumstances of the factory, compliance therewith would be unreasonable.

§ (4) This section shall come into operation on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine:

§ Provided that, as respects persons employed in any process in which lead, arsenic or any other poisonous substance is used, or any process prescribed by the Secretary of State, being a process liable to cause dermatitis or any-other infection of the skin, this section shall come into operation at the commencement of this Act.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in subsection (1), after "which," to insert "shall include soap and clean towels or other suitable means of cleaning or drying, and the facilities." The noble Earl said: My Lords, it will be recollected that at a previous stage of this Bill you had a very careful discussion upon the new clause which was inserted. We have examined it carefully in the light of the criticisms which fell from noble Lords during the discussions which took place on that occasion, and we have come to the conclusion that it would be advisable to insert the specific requirements on the question of soap and clean 833 towels. I therefore beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

§ Amendment moved— Page 39, line 24, after ("which") insert ("shall include soap and clean towels or other suitable means of cleaning or drying, and the facilities").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out subsection (3) and insert the following subsection: (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for the exemption of factories from any of the requirements of this section in cases where by reason of the difficulty of obtaining an adequate supply of water, or the fact that accommodation is restricted and adequate and suitable washing facilities are otherwise conveniently available, or such other special circumstances as may be specified in the regulations, the application of the requirement would in his opinion be unreasonable. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is also one which I move as a result of examination after the discussion which we had on the earlier stage of the Bill. You will observe that under this Amendment exemptions can only be provided for by regulations. The proposals would have to be published in draft and the regulations laid before Parliament, and there would be full opportunities for discussion. The general power for a superintending inspector to grant exemptions would, under the Amendment, be dropped. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 39, line 31, leave out subsection (3) and insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD FARINGDON moved, in subsection (4), to substitute "nineteen hundred and thirty-eight" for "nineteen hundred and thirty-nine." The noble Lord said: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Strabolgi I beg to move his Amendment, which reduces the length of time by the end of which washing facilities must be installed. I suggest to the House that in a matter of this kind, which is of essential importance to the health of people engaged in these factories, two years is an excessive length of time to give in which to instal mere washing accommodation. It seems to me that one year would be more than ample, and in a matter of this seriousness, 834 where the health of the people is so deeply concerned, I hope your Lordships and the Government may see fit to reduce this length of time.

§ Amendment moved— Page 40, line 2, leave out ("thirty-nine") and insert ("thirty-eight").—(Lord Faringdon.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the effect of the Amendment would be to bring the clause as to washing facilities into operation in July of next year instead of in July, 1939. I have gone into the whole question since it was raised on the Committee stage, and I regret that the Government cannot accept the Amendment. I do not think it is generally realised that the fitting up of these elaborate washing facilities in a large number of factories all over the country would take a very considerable time. The question of drainage and water supplies has also to be considered. There may be a very large amount of structural alteration required in some of these factories, and in a small town where at present there might be a large number of factories with no washing facilities, it would, I think, be undesirable to shorten the period during which these facilities may be installed. The expenditure and the requirements will be very high, and it is desired to give the factory owners every opportunity of carefully considering the cheapest but the best way in which the facilities can be installed. We discussed this Amendment at great length on a previous occasion and from the information which I have had given to me I am quite certain that the period which the noble Lord proposes is too short. The result of the Amendment would be such that in many cases the requirements could not be complied with by the factories concerned in the time available.

LORD FARINGDON
My Lords, I am afraid I cannot really follow the noble Earl, but I shall not press the Amendment. The probability is that large factories, where it would take considerable time to instal these facilities, already have them. It is to provide for the smaller factories that my Amendment is moved, and I cannot think it would take two years.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in the proviso in subsection (4), to leave 835 out "infection" and insert "affection." The noble Earl said: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is really to correct a mistake in the drafting. I have discussed the matter with the noble Lord, Lord Addison, who is unable to be in his place to-day, and he informs me that the alteration of this word meets the point that he made on an earlier occasion.

§ Amendment moved— Page 40, line 7, leave out ("infection") and insert ("affection").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 43:

§ Accommodation for clothing.

§ (3) The Secretary of State may by regulalations exempt any class or description of factory from the requirements of this section where he is satisfied that, having regard to the special conditions under which work is carried on in that class or description of factory, compliance therewith would be unreasonable, and the superintending inspector for the division may by certificate exempt, subject to any conditions specified in the certificate, a factory from the requirements of this section where he is satisfied that, having regard to the special circumstances of the factory, compliance therewith would be unreasonable.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out subsection (3) and insert the following subsection: (3) The Secretary of State may by regulations provide for the exemption of factories from any of the requirements of this section in cases where by reason of such special circumstances as may be specified in the regulations the application of the requirement would in his opinion be unreasonable. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this subsection is practically drafting. It brings the clause into line with the exemptions which were granted in the previous clause.

§ Amendment moved— Page 40, line 21, leave out subsection (3) and insert the said new subsection.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 46 [Welfare regulations]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, I have two drafting Amendments here.

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 41, line 29, leave out ("thereof") and insert ("of them")

836

§ Page 41, line 33, leave out ("thereof") and insert ("of them").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 53:

§ Underground rooms.

§ 53.—(1) No work shall be carried on in any underground room (not being an underground room used only for the purpose of storage or for some purposes excepted by order of the Secretary of State) which is certified by the inspector for the district to be unsuitable for the purpose as regards construction, height, light or ventilation, or on any hygienic ground, or on the ground that adequate means of escape in case of fire are not provided:

§ Provided that, where the inspector certifies as unsuitable any room which is in actual use, he shall suspend the operation of the certificate for such period as he considers reasonable with a view to enabling the occupier to render the room suitable or to obtain other premises.

§ LORD FARINGDON moved, in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "State" and insert "unless it is certified by the inspector for the district to be suitable for the purpose on hygienic grounds, and in particular as regards construction, light, ventilation, and adequate means of escape in case of fire." The noble Lord said: My Lords, you will remember that when I moved this Amendment in Committee it received very considerable support, and the Government promised to give it their serious consideration. The matter really seems to be one in which some of us prefer an active principle in the control of these underground work-places and, though the Government have exactly the same object in view, that is, to prevent their use except when they are entirely satisfactory from a hygienic point of view, they seem to have preferred a rather more negative method. We prefer that no underground rooms should be used without having a certificate from an inspector.

§ It has been objected that the system which we suggest was, in point of fact, used in the case of underground bakehouses, and that it has had the result of allowing those bakehouses to continue which in many cases we should have wished closed. But there is a very considerable difference, because the bakehouses were left in the hands of the local authority. Under my Amendment they would be directly under the Ministry. We hoped the Government would themselves table an Amendment in this sense at this 837 stage of the Bill, and I cannot help thinking that our plan is the better one. If one has, at the very beginning, a high standard for these underground workshops, I cannot see that the granting of a certificate can possibly result in the certification of premises which at a later stage one might wish to close, though that I believe is the defence for this particular method.

§ Amendment moved— Page 46, line 33, leave out from ("State") to the end of line 42, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Faringdon.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, we have, since the Committee stage, considered the whole question of this Amendment. I shall ask your Lordships to adhere to the clause as it stands, because I think it is really more effective for securing improvement in underground rooms than the procedure of positive certificates. I am advised that the issue: of these positive certificates by inspectors tends to tie the hands of the staff in future in raising standards. When a favourable certificate has been issued it is difficult to turn round and withdraw it unless the conditions in the room have appreciably changed for the worse; whereas, under the scheme proposed in the Bill, the inspector can at any time certify the room as unsuitable if it is not brought into conformity with the improved standards. I regret, therefore, that I cannot see my way to accept the Amendment.

§ On Question, Amendment negatived.

§ Clause 54 [Basement bakehouses]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, I beg to move a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 48, line 13, after ("period") insert ("being").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ LORD FARINGDON moved, after Clause 54, to insert the following new clause:

§ Prohibition of night work in bakehouses.

§ ".—(1) Subject to such exceptions as may be allowed by special order made by the Secretary of State, no person shall be employed in the manufacture of bread or flour confectionery, or in any other process ordinarily carried on in a bakehouse, between the hours of eleven in the evening and five in the morning.

§ (2) The Secretary of State may, on the application of any body representative of the 838 employers or workers in the baking industry in any district, by special order prohibit any person who carries on within the district the manufacture of bread or flour confectionery, or any such process as aforesaid, whether he does or does not employ any other persons in his business, from being himself engaged in the manufacture or process between the hours of eleven in the evening and five in the morning.

§ (3) This section shall come into operation on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine: Provided that if a joint application is made to the Secretary of State by any body or bodies representative of the employers and of the workers in the industry in any district the Secretary of State may, by special order, direct that this section shall come into operation in that district at such earlier date as may be fixed by the order. The noble Lord said: My Lords, in view of the Report on this question of night baking, perhaps there is some declaration that the Government would like to make. I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.

§ Amendment moved— After Clause 54 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Faringdon.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I am obliged to the noble Lord for giving me the opportunity to make a statement on the question of this clause. The Report of the Committee was only received on Tuesday of last week and, as the noble Lord will be aware, it was presented to Parliament on the following Thursday. The Committee by a majority have advised against any statutory prohibition of night baking. Shortly stated, their view is that while such prohibition would work inequitably among employers and inflict hardship in many cases, including a number of bakeries where the work is carried on under the best conditions, it would not provide any comprehensive or effective relief to the night baker from the serious social disadvantages under which he labours. The situation as presented in the Report obviously demands a much more thorough examination than it has been possible to make within the very short time available, and I am not in a position at present to make any final announcement of the Government views on the main issue. It is clear however that in view of the nature of the Report it would not in any case be possible for the Government to entertain any question of legislation on the subject during the present Session.
839 At the end of their Report the Committee draw attention to the need for better organisation in this industry and suggest that some recognised body should be set up on which representatives of both sides of the trade might meet together to thrash out their difficulties and devise means for amelioration of conditions. The Government regard this suggestion as a very valuable one and are prepared to take action to give effect to it, and I am glad to state that my right honourable friend the Minister of Labour will be willing to enter into negotiations with the representatives of the two sides for this purpose without delay. I feel confident that if some satisfactory joint machinery could be established we could look forward to a great improvement in the general conditions of the industry.

§ VISCOUNT SAMUEL
My Lords, when this matter came before the Committee I expressed regret that the Report of the Departmental Committee had not been presented to Parliament, and that we were unable to form an opinion on this matter without the help that was anticipated from that Committee. Now, very belatedly, the Report has come forward, and we have been able to read the recommendations of the Committee. I do not think it possible to quarrel with the decision of the Government not to proceed with legislation at this stage of the Bill, with this Report so recently presented and in view of the fact that the Majority of the Committee are against legislation of the kind that has hitherto been proposed. At the same time I hope this Report will not be regarded as the last word. As a rule, when the members of an expert Departmental Committee are nominated and hear the parties, take evidence, and form a judgment, public opinion is ready to accept their decision as having been arrived at after a full examination of the case, and as being probably correct. But in this matter there have been two Committees, one a few years ago, one now, and both of them, as it happens, presided over by distinguished Scottish Law Lords. The first Committee reported in favour of legislation for the stoppage of night baking. The second Committee has reported against it, but this Second Committee's recommendation is not unanimous, and the member who represented 840 the Labour point of view has appended a Minority Report in the opposite sense to that of the Majority.
We should be somewhat influenced by the fact that the Committee quote a number of other countries in which the legislation that is now desired is in fact in operation. Night hours are prohibited for baking in Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Germany, Holland, Hungary, Italy, Poland, and Sweden. In these circumstances, it does not appear that there is anything in the nature of things which makes it impossible to have similar legislation in this country. Further, the International Labour Office at its Conference has, by a large majority, resolved in favour of the principle of this legislation. In this country the co-operative societies, which cater for an enormous population of bread consumers, are in the main in favour of the proposals which have been made. It appears that new methods of wrapping loaves of bread give the bread an additional six hours of freshness, and the benefit of these six hours might very well be given to the baker in order to relieve the hard conditions to which he is subjected. The Committee also dispose of one argument against this reform in that they make it clear that it would not be likely to lead to any increase of price to the public, as has frequently been alleged, or any material disadvantage of any kind.
The number of men affected is nearly 10,000, and, as the Committee agree, the social effects are most detrimental. Their lives are most seriously affected. They can have practically no family life at all. They have to work, not like people who work in shifts, alternately one week at night and the next week in the day; they have to work every night of the week except one, all through the year and every year, during the whole of their working lives. In these circumstances the industrial conditions imposed on them are very hard. This is one of the matters in which human factors and economic factors are, to some extent, in conflict. Very often the human factor has to give way to the economic, and sometimes the economic ought to give way to the human. I have no doubt that in this country, as in other countries, if legislation of this kind were adopted it would be found it could conform to the conditions without any inconvenience or loss to the employers or the public. I trust that when this matter 841 comes to be more fully considered by the Government, even if they cannot act at this stage, they will not regard the issue as a closed question, but will consider further whether legislation of a more comprehensive kind than that proposed by the Committee cannot be adopted.

§ On Question, Amendment negatived.

§ Clause 61 [Prohibition of importation and sale of articles made with prohibited materials]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved.— Page 52, line 35, after ("employed") insert ("and any such Order in Council may be varied or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 68 [Power to direct formal investigation of accidents and cases of disease]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, my Amendment is also a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 57, line 36, leave out ("of") and insert ("into").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 70:

§ General conditions as to hours of employment of women and young persons.

§ 70. Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to overtime and to the special exceptions allowed under this Part of this Act, the hours worked, the period of employment, and the intervals for meals and rest, for every woman or young person employed in a factory shall conform to the following conditions, namely:—

§ (c) a woman or young person shall not be employed continuously for a spell of more than four and a half hours without an interval of at least half an hour for a meal or rest, so, however, that where an interval of not less than ten minutes is allowed in the course of a spell, the spell may be increased to five hours;

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment, and I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 60, line 19, leave out from ("Act") to ("the") in line 20.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

842

§ LORD FARINGDON moved, in paragraph (c), to leave out "and a half." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has been something in the nature of a disappointment to us at this stage. We had hoped that in Committee the Government had practically accepted it, and it is rather a blow to find that it has not been put forward by them at this stage of the Bill. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 70, lines 38 and 39, leave out ("and a half").—(Lord Faringdon.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I regret that the noble Lord should have been under the misapprehension that my noble friend Lord De La Warr gave an undertaking that he was prepared to accept such an Amendment on the Committee stage of the Bill. I have nothing further to add to the speech I made on a previous occasion, and I regret it is not possible for the Government to accept this Amendment, I hope therefore the noble Lord will see his way to withdraw it.

§ On Question, Amendment negatived.

§ CLAUSE 71 [Reduction of weekly hours of work of young persons under sixteen]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I have a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 62, line 25, leave out from ("regulations") to the end of line 33 and insert ("make such modifications of this Part of this Act, and make such provision as to the period of employment of such young persons and the intervals allowed to them for meals and rest, as appear or appears to him to be necessary or expedient for regulating the arrangement of the hours to be worked by such young persons").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ VISCOUNT SAMUEL moved to insert: (5) As from the expiration of a period of three years after the commencement of this Act this section shall apply as if in subsection (1) and subsection (2) (a) for the references to forty-four hours there were substituted references to forty hours, and in subsection (2) and subsection (4) for the references to forty-eight hours there were substituted references to forty-four hours. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this Amendment raises a point of considerable substance that was fully discussed on the Committee stage. In 843 brief, the Amendment relates only to children of the age of fourteen and fifteen, and it is desired to relieve them from what we regard as the excessively long hours of work allowed to them under this Bill. I stated the case as fully as I could on the Committee stage, and I do not propose to detain your Lordships by repeating those arguments. This Amendment differs from the Amendment moved on the Committee stage because the provision now intended would come into operation only after a period of three years, and it is hoped that the Government may have been able to enter into consultations in order if possible to arrive at an agreement if this very moderate reform should be acceptable after a period. It was in order to enable them to do that and to inform the House of the conclusion to which they had arrived that I have put down this Amendment, which is also endorsed by other members of your Lordships' House. I now beg to move the Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 62, line 33, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Samuel.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the noble Viscount has correctly stated what the effect of the Amendment would be—namely, that three years after the commencement of the Act the maximum weekly hours for young persons under sixteen would be reduced to forty, while forty-four would be the maximum in lieu of forty-eight in the exempted trades. In coming to the decision that we did at an earlier stage of this Bill to substitute forty-four hours for young persons instead of forty-eight, we had to take into account the needs of industry at the present day, and again, in discussing and considering this Amendment I think we must also take into the account the needs of industry in regard to this proposal also. We do come reluctantly to the conclusion that it would be impossible to go further at the present time.
As regards the future, our hope, and indeed our expectation, is that it would be possible at no very distant future to make a further advance, but we do not think that it would be wise for Parliament to commit itself now to a further reduction which would come into force automatically at the end of the period 844 of three years, and which, when that time arrives, might not be then appropriate in all cases in the particular circumstances then existing. Our view is that the proper way of dealing with this matter is to consider the question of further reduction in the light of the valuable experience which we shall gain during the next few years when industry has adjusted itself to the reduced hours which are laid down in this Bill. I hope that the experience will be so favourable that it will then be possible to make a further advance with the assent and co-operation of the employers in industry. I hope my noble friend will not press this Amendment. It was discussed at some length during the Committee stage of the Bill, and I trust, in view of the answers that were given then and the one I have given to-day, that the noble Viscount will now withdraw the Amendment.

§ THE EARL OF LISTOWEL
My Lords, I should like to say on behalf of my colleagues on these Benches that we regret very much that it has been impossible for the Government to accept the proposal that was made on Committee stage with the very considerable concession that has been added by the noble Viscount on the Liberal Benches at this stage. It would seem fairly reasonable to suppose that within three years industry might make the necessary adjustments. I should like to say that if the noble Viscount carries his Amendment to a Division he will find support from these Benches.

§ LORD ELTON
My Lords, I, too, hope that the noble Viscount will divide your Lordships on this point. I do not want to repeat what the noble Viscount has said or the few remarks your Lordships have been good enough to allow me to make on, I think, two previous stages of the Bill; but I should like to point out that, as far as I have been able to observe, His Majesty's Government have not established, or, I think, sought to establish at any stage of this Bill, that there is anything inexpedient or vicious in the principle of a forty-hour week for young persons under sixteen. We have been told that there will be a certain amount of reorganisation, and that there will obviously be a certain amount of difficulty, in introducing this reform. I did hope that His Majesty's Government might have felt that that difficulty had been met by the form in which the noble 845 Viscount has now moved the Amendment. I trust that some of your Lordships will be ready to vote for the principle that at any rate within three years forty hours is long enough for young persons of fourteen and fifteen to work.

VISCOUNT ELIBANK
My Lords, I hope the noble Viscount will not press the Amendment. I listened to what the noble Earl has just said, and I fully endorse his remarks from a practical point of view. I think that the way the employers have met the various measures and ameliorations—and very great ameliorations—which are contained in this Bill shows that they are not unsympathetic towards improvement in the conditions of the workmen and of the younger people whom they employ. I venture to urge that it is not fair to place upon the factories something that is to take place three years hence when conditions may have altered considerably. I hope that if this Amendment is pressed to a Division, your Lordships will support the Government, in the full belief that the Government have this in hand and that they will discuss it with the employers in the hope that arrangements can be made whereby in time these hours may be reduced. I venture to urge, therefore, that the Government will stand fast on this Amendment and, if necessary, let it go to a Division.

846

THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER
My Lords, I should like, too, to add my voice in expressing disappointment that the Government have not seen their way to accept this Amendment. I do not want to repeat what I have previously said at various stages of this Bill, but there is widespread anxiety, expressed not many days ago in The Times, at the hours young people have to work. I recognise the force that may lay in one of the arguments addressed to us on the last occasion when we discussed this matter—namely, that if the change was made at once it might interfere with team work. But surely three years is sufficient in which to make the adjustments necessary to enable these young persons to work slightly shorter hours.

§ VISCOUNT SAMUEL
My Lords, I recognise that the Minister in charge of the Bill has given us a sympathetic reply; nevertheless it is a very direct negative. I understand that some noble Lords would wish to record in the Division that they attach great importance to this matter and, therefore, I regret that I cannot see my way to withdraw the Amendment.

§ On Question, Whether the proposed new subsection shall be there inserted?

§ Their Lordships divided: Contents, 14; Not-Contents, 50.

845

CONTENTS.
Mersey, V.	Clwyd, L.	O'Hagan, L.
Samuel, V.	Elton, L. [Teller.]	Rowallan, L.
	Faringdon, L.	Snell, L.
Winchester, L. Bp.	Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)	Stanmore, L. [Teller.]
	Holden, L.	Strabolgi, L.
Ask with, L.

NOT CONTENTS.
Halifax, V. (L. President.)	Wicklow, E.	Heneage, L.
		Hutchison of Montrose, L.
De La Warr, E. (L. Privy Seal.)	Bertie of Thame, V.	Jessel, L.
	Elibank, V.	Kilmarnock, L. (E. Erroll.)
	FitzAlan of Derwent, V.	Lawrence, L.
Aberdeen and Temair, M.	Greenwood, V.	Oriel, L. (V. Massereene.)
	Swinton, V.	Redesdale, L.
Albemarle, E.	Trenchard, V.	Rennell, L.
Feversham, E.		Saltoun, L.
Iddesleigh, E.	Annesley, L. (V. Valentia.)	Sempill, L.
Lucan, E. [Teller.]	Bayford, L.	Sherborne, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.	Bingley, L.	Stonehaven, L.
Midleton, E.	Cranworth, L.	Strathcona and Mount Royal L.
Minto, E.	Doverdale, L.
Mount Edgcumbe, E.	Fairfax of Cameron, L.	Strickland, L.
Munster, E.	Fairlie, L. (E. Glasgow.)	Templemore, L. [Teller.]
Onslow, E.	Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.)	Teynham, L.
Plymouth, E.	Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.)	Wolverton, L.
Stanhope, E.	Hastings, L.	Wyfold, L.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

847

§ Clause 72 [Notice fixing hours of employment]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 62, line 35, leave out ("Section seventy") and insert ("the foregoing provisions of this Part").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 73 [Overtime employment of women and young persons over sixteen]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 64, line 43, after ("women") insert ("or for women employed in any specified process").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 75 [Restriction of employment inside and outside factory on same day]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, I beg to move a drafting Amendment to this clause.

§ Amendment moved— Page 67, line 22, leave out ("him or her") and insert ("her or him").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 95 [Exceptions as to the preserving of fish, fruit and vegetables]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 76, line 37, after ("not") insert ("except in so far as regulations made under this section so require").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 97:

§ Exception relating to male young persons employed in bakehouses.

§ 97. The period of employment in the case of a male young person who has attained the age of sixteen may begin at five o'clock in the morning in that part of a bakehouse in which the process of bread baking is carried on.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out Clause 97. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this clause reproduces part of Section 38 of the Act of 1901. The Government feel that the clause is 848 not justified in present circumstances and I therefore propose to your Lordships that it should be omitted.

§ Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 97.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 101 [Certificate of fitness for employment of young persons]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to insert the following new subsections: (5) Where the examining surgeon so directs in the certificate, any such condition as aforesaid shall, so far as relates to the employment in respect of which the certificate was issued or other employment in a factory in the occupation of the same occupier, continue to have effect after the young person has attained the age of sixteen; but unless such a direction is made, the condition shall cease to have effect when the young person attains the age of sixteen, and shall in any case cease to have effect when the young person attains the age of eighteen. (6) Where a certificate under this section is subject to a condition requiring re-examination after an interval specified in the certificate, the examining surgeon on such re-examination may vary the certificate or may revoke the certificate as from such date as he may direct; and, if the certificate of a young person is revoked before he attains the age of sixteen, he shall not remain in any employment to which the certificate relates, and subsection (1) of this section shall thereafter have effect as if no certificate had been issued in respect of that young person. The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of this Amendment and of the consequential Amendments to this clause standing on the Paper in my name is to enlarge somewhat the circumstances in which the examining surgeon may direct that conditions attached to a certificate of fitness shall continue to be binding after the young person has attained the age of sixteen. I may point out to your Lordships that there is a misprint on the Amendment paper. The word "conditions" in the second line should be "condition."

§ Amendment moved— Page 82, line 3, at end insert the said new subsections.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 82, line 5, after ("refused") insert ("or revoked").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

849

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 82, line 8, after ("refusal") insert ("or revocation").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Leave out lines 9 to 27.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 103 [Tenement factories]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER had on the Paper four Amendments to this clause. The noble Earl said: My Lords, the purpose of these Amendments is to make a slight adjustment in the respective responsibilities of the owner of a tenement factory and of the tenement occupiers and also to give power to modify the provisions of the clause by special regulations. The matter is somewhat complicated and I would ask your Lordships to allow me to leave the matter with that statement, unless any noble Lord requires a fuller explanation. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 84, line 17, leave out from the second ("fire") to ("and") in line 19.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 84, line 22, leave out from ("III") to the end of line 23.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 85, line 5, at end insert: ("(b) the owner of the tenement factory shall be responsible, instead of the occupier, for any contravention in rooms occupied by not more than one tenant of the provisions of Part I with respect to cleanliness, overcrowding, temperature, ventilation and lighting, or the provisions of Part IV with respect to removal of dust or fumes, where the contravention arises from a failure to carry out any necessary structural work or any defect in any machinery, plant or fixtures belonging to him, and shall only be so responsible for any contravention of the provisions of Part II with respect to safety provisions in case of fire or the provisions of Part III, where the contravention arises 850 from any such failure or defect as aforesaid; and").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved—

§ Page 85, line 19, at end insert: ("(3) The Secretary of State may by special regulations modify the provisions of this section in their application to any class or description of tenement factory, and those provisions shall also be subject to any regulations made under any enactment repealed by this Act.").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 105:

§ Application of Act to electrical transformer and converter stations.

§ 105. The application of this Act to electrical transformer or converter stations in which no person is regularly employed shall be subject to such exemptions and modifications as the Secretary of State may by regulations direct.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved to leave out Clause 105 and insert the following new clause:

§ "Application of Act to electrical stations.

§ 105.—(1) The provisions of this Act shall apply to any premises in which persons are regularly employed in or in connection with the processes or operations of generating, transforming or converting, or of switching, controlling or otherwise regulating, electrical energy for supply by way of trade, or for supply for the purposes of any transport undertaking or other industrial or commercial undertaking or of any public building or public institution, or for supply to streets or other public places, as if the premises were a factory and the employer of any person employed in the premises in or in connection with any such process or operation were the occupier of a factory.

§ (2) The provisions of this Act hereinafter in this subsection mentioned shall apply to any other premises in which any such processes or operations as aforesaid are carried on or performed for such supply as aforesaid, being premises large enough to admit the entrance of a person after the machinery or plant therein is in position, as if the premises were a factory and the employer of any person employed in the premises in or in connection with any such process or operation were the occupier of a factory, that is to say:—

(a) the provisions of Part IV with respect to special regulations for safety and health;
(b) Part V;
(c) the provisions of Part XI with respect to powers and duties of inspectors and regulations and orders of the Secretary of State;
(d) Part XII;
(e) Part XIII;
(f) Part XIV.

851

§ (3) The Secretary of State may by special regulations apply any of the provisions of this Act mentioned in the last foregoing subsection to any machinery or plant used elsewhere than in premises mentioned in that subsection or in subsection (1) hereof, being machinery or plant used in the aforesaid processes or operations and for such supply as aforesaid, as if the machinery or plant were machinery or plant in a factory, and the employer of any person employed in connection with any such use of the machinery or plant were the occupier of a factory.

§ (4) Subsections (1) and (2) of this section shall not, except in so far as the Secretary of State may by special regulations direct, apply to any premises where the aforesaid processes or operations are only carried on or performed for the immediate purpose of working an electric motor or working any apparatus which consumes electrical energy for lighting, heating, transmitting or receiving messages or communications, or other purposes.

§ (5) For the purposes of the definition in Section one hundred and fifty-three of this Act of the expression 'factory,' electrical energy shall not be deemed to be an article, but save as aforesaid nothing in this section shall affect the application of this Act to factories within the meaning of that definition."

§ The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Amendment is designed to meet a point which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Faringdon, at an earlier stage of the Bill. The Government, as I promised on that occasion, have been in consultation with the Electricity Commissioners and we have also consulted representatives of the employers and the staff in the electrical supply industry. I understand that the scheme of the new clause is regarded by them as an improvement, and I hope that it will be generally accepted as a solution of this very difficult problem. I may add that the new clause has the support of the Electricity Commissioners and other branches of the electricity world.

§ Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 105 and insert the said new clause.—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 114 [Particulars of work and wages to be given to piece-workers]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 99, line 29, leave out second ("on") and insert ("in").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

852

§ Clause 125 [Powers of inspectors]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, there is a drafting Amendment to this clause. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 106, line 5, after ("district") insert ("may be issued for a limited period or without limit of period and").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 130:

§ Provisions as to county and district councils.

§ (5) For the purpose of their duties under this Act a county council and a district council and their officers shall, without prejudice to their other powers, have all such powers of entry, inspection, taking legal proceedings, or otherwise, as an inspector has, and accordingly in relation to their said duties the provisions of this Act as to furnishing means required by an inspector, and delaying or obstructing an inspector, shall be construed as including references to such officers; but no such powers of entry or inspection shall be exercised except by officers of the council authorised by them in writing in that behalf, either generally or specially.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (5), to insert "and any such officer shall if so required produce his authority to the occupier or other person holding a responsible position of management at the factory." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, it is usual in such cases to provide for the production of an authority if so required. I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 109, line 3, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 131 [Provisions as to regulations and orders of Secretary of State]:

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, this is drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 109, line 34, after ("Act") insert ("may be made for a limited period or without limit of period and").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 136 [Fine for offence by parent]:

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, these are two drafting Amendments.

853

§ Amendments moved—

§ Page 112, line 7, leave out ("in any factory")

§ Page 112, line 7 at end insert ("in any factory").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.

§ Clause 153:

§ Interpretation of expression "factory."

§ 153.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, the expression "factory" means any premises in which, or within the close or curtilage or precincts of which, persons are employed in manual labour in any process for or incidental to any of the following purposes, namely:—

(a) the making of any article or of part of any article; or
(b) the altering, repairing, ornamenting, finishing, cleaning, or washing, or the breaking up or demolition of any article; or
(c) the adapting for sale of any article; being premises in which, or within the close or curtilage or precincts of which, the work is carried on by way of trade or for purposes of gain and to or over which 1he employer of the persons employed therein has the right of access or control:

§ (ix) any premises in which the making, adaptation or repair of dresses, scenery or properties is carried on incidentally to the production by way of trade or for purposes of gain, of cinematograph films or theatrical performances;

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), after "premises," where the word first occurs, to insert "other than shops as defined in the Shops Act, 1912." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I have already once postponed this Amendment to suit your Lordships' convenience, and therefore I hope your Lordships will bear with me if I deal with the matter at some length. Under the Factories Act, 1901, "factories" and "workshops" were defined separately, but under this Bill, they are amalgamated for the purpose of definition. The definition is set out in Clause 153, and this definition goes far beyond that applicable to a "non-textile factory" or "workshop" under the 1901 Act, in that the words "cleaning, or washing or the breaking up or demolition of any article" have been added. This extension of the meaning of the expression "factory" is causing considerable alarm to a large number of owners and occupiers of retail shops; in particular, to the owners and occupiers of butchers' shops. In many retail shops there is a good deal 854 of washing, or breaking up, or demolition of articles carried on by way of trade or for the purposes of gain. For example, the filleting of fish in a fishmonger's is "breaking up or demolition," and the cutting up of cloth in a draper's shop or the sewing of various ornaments on ladies' hats in a milliner's is "ornamenting" or "finishing."

§ I understand that in a communication addressed to Members of Parliament by the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Office in response to representations made by those Members as to the possibility of the Factories Bill applying to shops, the Minister has stated that the present Factory Acts are not applied to shops merely because a shop assistant in the course of his or her work incidentally performs a certain amount of manual labour, and that decisions of the Court indicate that one should have regard to the extent to which employment or manual labour is carried out and the substantial purpose for which the place is used. I understand further that the Department states that the Factories Act, 1901, already applied to premises in which manual labour is exercised or is incidental to the purpose, among other things, of adapting an article for sale, and therefore it is stated that the Bill is not introducing any novel principle in this matter. I think that that is a fallacy and for the following reason.

§ I lay stress on the point that the words in this Bill go considerably beyond the words in the existing law in that they specifically include the "breaking up or demolition of any article," which words do not appear in previous Acts. It may be true that decisions of the Courts indicate that one should have regard to the extent to which employment in manual labour is carried on and the substantial purpose for which the place is used. Now, however, in view of the addition of the words "breaking up or demolition" to the definition clause, it has been suggested that the Courts will be obliged to have regard to the extent to which this breaking up or demolition is carried out and the substantial purpose for which the place is used. The ordinary retail butcher's premises are not premises in which articles are only exposed for sale and in which the whole transaction consists of the taking up of an article and the wrapping up and handing of it to a customer. The ordinary butcher's shop 855 is a place in which there are normally a number of carcasses of beef, mutton or lamb, and pork, and these carcasses are broken up in that from time to time joints are cut out of them. I am told that quite 50 per cent, of the time of those engaged in retail butchers' shops is devoted to the breaking up of carcasses and the adapting of carcasses for sale to the public in the form of joints or cuts of meat.

§ In these circumstances, therefore, it is feared that the expression "factory" in this Bill does go beyond the existing law, and as far as a butcher's shop is concerned, at all events, it would be possible to argue in the Courts that the Factories Act applied to butchers' premises. The objection to such an occurrence is obvious. Many of these butchers' shops are comparatively small rooms, and under the Public Health (Meat) Regulations, 1924, they are required, amongst other things, to cause the ceilings of such rooms to be cleansed or purified as often as may be necessary to keep them in a proper state. The reason for that is obvious—namely, that butchers have a habit of hanging carcasses on rails running round the walls. If they were required to register as factories, they would find themselves confronted with a conflict between the requirements of the Public Health (Meat) Regulations, the Shops Acts, and the Factories Acts. Another reason why it is suggested that it should be made perfectly clear in a Statute what owners or occupiers of premises come within the definition of "factory" is that in Clause 115 of the present Bill every person shall, within one month after he begins to occupy, or use any premises as, a factory, serve on the inspector for the district a written notice … and if he fails to do so he shall be guilty of an offence and liable on conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds or one pound for each day since the expiration of the month aforesaid, whichever is the greater.

§ I do not anticipate that the Courts will be asked to determine whether every shop in the country is a factory, and I do not suggest that the Home Office have any present intention of requiring the registration of retail premises as factories. What has to be borne in mind is that other Governments may have other views as to their powers under the various Statutes, and may desire to seek to extend the powers of bureaucracy to 856 butchers' premises and other retail premises by taking the ordinary meaning of the words set forth in the Statute and by reason thereof requiring the registration of these premises as factories. It therefore follows that the unfortunate trader in question is on the horns of a dilemma, since if he does not register within one month under Clause 15, he is liable to heavy penalties, and if he does register he is subject to onerous restrictions. For these reasons I beg to move.

§ Amendment moved— Page 119, line^* 17, after ("premises") insert ("other than shops as defined in the Shops Act, 1912").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Bertie has given your Lordships an excellent typewritten speech, which he has read without any blemish at all! Perhaps I might remind my noble friend that this matter was raised on the Committee stage and on the Report stage in another place. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer gave a very clear indication of what actually an Amendment such as this would do. In the first place, let me tell my noble friend that if he went into a florist's shop and got some young lady there to make him up a buttonhole of flowers—

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
I do not wear them.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
—that would not be a factory within the meaning of the Act. Again, if the noble Viscount walked into a draper's establishment to get one of the attendants there to sew "buttons on to his clothes—

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
I do not.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
—that incidental operation would not make a shop into a factory. The Amendment is admittedly a very complicated one, but I am advised that if we accepted it we should deprive a number of workers of the protection of the Factories Acts which they at present enjoy. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will see his way to withdraw this Amendment, and discuss any other matters which he may fear I have failed to answer with I me after this business is over.

857

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, I think my noble friend has failed to answer many of the matters which I brought forward, but I do not wish to trouble your Lordships by pressing the Amendment. I therefore beg leave to withdraw.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the next Amendment is drafting.

§ Amendment moved— Page 119, line 37, leave out sub-paragraph (i).—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the next Amendment should read "the work carried on in any factory," and I beg to move it in that form.

§ Amendment moved— Page 120, line 10, at end insert ("the work carried on in any factory").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 120, line 11, leave out ("the work carried on in").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, the next is a drafting Amendment.

§ Amendment moved— Page 120, line 39, after ("production") insert ("exhibition or presentation").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, at the end of subsection (1) (ix), to insert "not being a stage or dressing room or other part of a theatre in which only occasional adaptations or repairs are made." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, as at present worded this paragraph is rather vague and confused. If it is interpreted literally, as it must be, it would make every theatre in the country "a factory," and apparently that is not the intention of the Government, but if it is not their intention why cannot their intention be made clear? It would seem that they only wish to apply the Bill to workrooms, whether outside a theatre or within it, where theatrical dresses, scenery or properties are made or repaired. I think your Lordships will 858 agree with me that the definition they use is very much wider. The point was raised during the Committee stage in another place, and Mr. Lloyd, for the Home Office, merely indicated that it was not their intention to administer such a provision in a vexatious way. Whatever the intention of the present Home Office, however, we have no guarantee that some future disagreeable Home Secretary may not desire to behave in a vexatious way, and make full use of the powers which the Bill gives him. I agree that at present a gentleman's agreement is observed, but I can see no valid reason why it should not be incorporated in an Act when the opportunity presents itself, as it does in this Bill.

§ Amendment moved— Page 120, line 41, at end, insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER
My Lords, it is not the intention of the Government to bring under this Bill a stage or dressing room in which only occasional adaptations or repairs are made. If my noble friend can see his way to move the Amendment as it stands with the exception of the words "or other part" it would make that intention clear, and I should be prepared to accept the Amendment in that form.

§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl and I accept half a loaf as better than no bread. I will withdraw my original Amendment and move it in the form suggested.

§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

§ Amendment moved— Page 12, line 41, at end, insert ("not being a stage or dressing room of a theatre in which only occasional adaptations or repairs are made.")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.

§ Clause 154:

§ General interpretation.

§ "Building operation" means the construction, structural alteration or repair of a building (including re-pointing, re-decoration and external cleaning of the structure), the demolition of a building, and the preparation for, and laying the foundation of, an intended building, but does not include any operation which is a work of engineering construction within the meaning of this Act:

859

§ THE EARL OF MUNSTER moved, in the definition of "building operation," to leave out "or" ["alteration or repair"] and to insert "or maintenance" after "repair." The noble Earl said: My Lords, these two Amendments are proposed in order to remove doubts as to whether the terms of the Bill would be quite wide enough to enable us to ratify, if it were decided to do so, a draft International Labour Convention which has just been adopted at Geneva in regard to the safety of workers in the building industry.

§ Amendment moved— Page 123, line 3, leave out ("or") and after ("repair") insert ("or maintenance").—(The Earl of Munster.)

§ On Question, Amendments agreed to.