§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Stanhope.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1 [National Advisory Councils]
§
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "them" ["A National Council may appoint Committees to assist them"] and insert "it". The noble Viscount said: Many of your Lordships will remember that when the noble Viscount, Lord Sankey, occupied the Woolsack, he laid down a rule that if a noun of multitude was used in the singular at the beginning of a Bill it was to continue so throughout the Bill, and that if it began in the plural it was to remain in the plural. The draftsmen accepted that rule. If your Lordships will look at line 15 of this Bill, in subsection (1) of Clause 1, you will see the words:
Such a Council is hereafter in this Act referred to as a 'National Council.'
Then subsection (2) begins:
A National Council may appoint committees to assist them.…
"Them" is the word that I want altered to "it," because undoubtedly such a
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Council is, must, and can only be singular. Then, not content with that, if your Lordships will look at page 6, you will see that subsection (2) of Clause 8 says:
The Board shall, out of moneys so provided—(i) make such payments in respect of the administrative expenses of the National Council, of committees thereof.…
So that it comes back into the neuter, because, according to the Oxford English Dictionary the definition of "thereof"is: "(a) of that or it in various current senses of 'of '; (b) of it; (c) of it, its." I shall he very much astonished if my noble friend the Minister of Education says I am wrong.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 18, leave out ("them") and insert ("it").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION (EARL STANHOPE)I am always somewhat nervous of my noble friend when he moves Amendments regarding the English language. I should like, however, to remind him that the English language is fluid, arid I hope as Minister of Education that I shall never find myself drawing up a code as to how that language shall be used. I came down here this afternoon, as I have said, somewhat nervous, and so I fortified myself by bringing with me Fowler's "Modern English Usage." I think my noble friend will perhaps agree with me when I say with great respect that Fowler is a greater authority on the English language even than Lord Chancellors.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEWell, yes, perhaps.
§ EARL STANHOPEWith some exceptions, of course. He will find, if he looks at page 390 of this book, the following:
Nouns of multitude. Such words as army, fleet, Government, company, party, pack, crowd, mess, number, majority, may stand either for a single entity or for the individuals who compose it, and are called nouns of multitude. They are treated as singular or plural at discretion—and sometimes, naturally, without discretion. The Cabinet is divided is better, because in the order of thought a whole must precede division"—I must here point out that this book was published before the present Government came into office—and The Cabinet are agreed is better, because it takes two or more to agree. That is a delicate distinction and few will be at the pains to make it.50 The book goes on:In general it may be said that while there is always a better and a worse in the matter, there is seldom a right and a wrong, and any attempt to elaborate rules would be waste labour.I venture to think that on this occasion I am right and my noble friend is wrong. If he will look again at the Bill, he will see quite clearly that the word "council" at line 15 on page 1, in subsection (1), is obviously singular, whereas under subsection (2) the help given by committees is given, not to the Council itself, but to the members of that Council, who in several cases are acting as members of the committees being part of the National Council. There are already three committees set up. Therefore in subsection (2), where assistance is given to the members of the Council, the word employed is plural and not singular, whereas when the Council is referred to as a corporate body it is singular and not plural. I think that what I have quoted from a great authority will convince my noble friend and I hope therefore that he will withdraw his Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEMy noble friend has, I think, drawn a red herring across the issue. The ruling was laid down by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Sankey, and was accepted by the draftsmen. If, however, the draftsmen are to rule this House I have no more to say, and I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Clause 1 agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ Schedule agreed to.
§ Bill reported without amendment.