§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.
§ Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ LORD MARLEYMy Lords, perhaps I may say a word about this Order because I think it raises points which are not apparent in the proposals. As I understand the position—and it is not very easy to understand, though I have no doubt the noble Lord will be able to make it clearer—we had a Clearing Office arrangement with Spain, under which the moneys paid for Spanish goods imported into this country were put into a Clearing Office and were only allowed to come out of that Clearing Office by certain arrangements in connection with the exchange of goods. When the present position in Spain arose and the rebel part of Spain was involved, it became difficult to trade with that part of Spain and presumably that is the reason for this measure. But the position is that the British have great interests in Spain. I have no doubt a calculation might bring our total investments in Spain to something like £100,000,000. I am not, of course, aware of the exact amount, but it is a very large sum of money. We are now involved in a position under which we abolish the Clearing Office. We do not make available for the Government side in Spain the sums of money which are lying in the Clearing Office until some decision has been reached as to how they are to be distributed, and we allow 101 a complete freedom, of trade between the insurgent parts of Spain and this country.
We have therefore the position that we can pay out British money into the hands of those who are in the insurgent parts of Spain which may be used for encouraging and prolonging the unfortunate war which is going on in that country. We have an example of that in the fact that some British interests have already been seized and the products are being used—or it is alleged that they are being used—to pay the German and Italian troops who are on the side of the insurgent forces. This Order was published, I think, on December 17. In calling attention to its effects I need hardly remind your Lordships that this country has a great interest in the Rio Tinto copper mines in Spain. When the war started the price of Rio Tinto shares fell from something like 25s. to 15s. and lower. At the end of November, before this Order was published, they stood at 12s. Seventeen days afterwards this Order was published and they rose immediately to 20S. In other words, it was equivalent to making it possible for British money to go to the insurgent forces who had control of those mines. That is only an example of the effects of this Order. I cannot help thinking that it is only right that we should realise the evil effects of this measure in possibly prolonging the war in Spain, and I hope that we may get a reassurance from the noble Lord that this will not be the case. Personally I raise the strongest objections to British money being allowed to go under this Order into the hands of those who are supporting the insurgents in Spain in a way which was rot possible up to the date when this measure was brought in.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, I think I can only speak again by leave of the House, but the observations of the noble Lord require some answer from the Government side, especially as he was good enough to tell me yesterday that he might say some words on this subject. He is quite right in saying that this Order was first laid in December. What it does is to relieve importers of the obligation imposed on them by the Clearing Office (Spain) Order, 1936, to pay to the Controller of the Clearing Office all debts due to persons outside the United Kingdom in respect of Spanish goods or any bill of exchange given by way of payment of a debt in respect of the price of any such 102 Spanish goods. Debts due in respect of such goods imported before December 19 must be paid into the Clearing Office; debts due in respect of goods imported after that date may be settled outside the clearing. Now the reason why this was done is that the Anglo-Spanish clearings were working successfully up to the outbreak of the Civil War, and the arrears were being slowly liquidated, but the Civil War greatly interfered with the working of the clearing. The Spanish Exchange Office ceased to operate in effect for a time, and the difficulties of communication between that office and London were very great. Madrid was entirely cut off from that part of the territory controlled by the rebel authorities. I can assure the noble Lord that the only reason why the suspension of the clearings to which effect was given by the Treasury Order was decided upon was in order to relieve the serious embarrassment to British trade which the existing situation involved and, in particular, to facilitate the export of coal from South Wales and elsewhere.
§ LORD MARLEYMay I just put a question to the noble Lord? I understand that the Treasury suggest that they obtained a declaration from General Franco that moneys received for goods supplied from that part of Spain which is under General Franco would be to some extent spent in this country. Is that the case or is it not, and, if so, what guarantee have we that that promise will be carried out?
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI have no information of any undertaking having been given by General Franco to the British Government.
§ LORD MARLEYThere was some mention made of it in the Special Orders Committee yesterday.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREI am afraid I was not at the Special Orders Committee and did not hear that statement made. I have no information on the point. The information that I have does not say anything about any undertaking having been given by General Franco. I can only tell the noble Lord that there is not the slightest intention on the part of the British Government to depart in any way in this Order from the policy of neutrality in the Spanish Civil War which they have pursued with some success up to now. There is not the slightest political meaning in the Order. It is entirely a matter of 103 business, and it has been put down and carried out for the protection of our trade, as I have told the noble Lord.
§ LORD MARLEYMy Lords, if I may speak again by leave of the House, it does not seem to be very satisfactory that some sort of information should be available to a Committee outside your Lordships' House which is not available inside this House. I wonder whether the noble Lord would consider postponing a decision on this matter until that particular information is available to your Lordships, in order that we may have the advantage of information which, it is within the recollection of members present, was given to a Committee outside the House.
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said, I shall be pleased to put this Order off and see what extra information I can obtain. I have certainly not been informed, and I know of no undertaking such as the noble Lord says was given by General Franco, which information he says was communicated to the Special Orders Committee yesterday. If the noble Lord likes, 104 I will put this Order off and see what extra information I can obtain.
§ LORD MARLEYI am very much obliged
§ LORD TEMPLEMOREMy Lords, I beg to move that this debate be now adjourned.
§ Moved, That the debate be now adjourned.—(Lord Templemore.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.