Lords Sitting of 27 May 1936

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (ADDITIONAL POWERS) BILL.
Read 2a.
LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BOARD BILL.
Read 2a.
LLANELLY DISTRICT TRACTION BILL.
Read 2a.
DALTON-IN-FURNESS URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 2a.
SOUTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
Read 2a
ALEXANDER SCOTT'S HOSPITAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ST. HELENS) BILL. [H.L.]
VISCOUNT GAGE: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Minister of Health relating to the Borough of St. Helens; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read. 1a.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BRISTOL) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (FALMOUTH) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (STOCKTON-ON-TEES) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
BUCKHAVEN AND METHIL BURGH ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Considered on Report (according to Order).

CLERGY PENSIONS (AMENDMENT) MEASURE, 1936.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions (Amendment) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is the first of five Measures down in the name of the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury, and as Convocation is still sitting the most reverend Primate is unable to be here in time to address your Lordships. Therefore, on his behalf, I desire to move this Motion. The Measure deals only with amendments in detail to the main Clergy Pensions Measure which was passed in 1926. The working of that Measure has disclosed a good many small points that are capable of adjustment in order to make for smoother working. I do not think there is any question of principle involved anywhere. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions (Amendment) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(Earl Grey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

UNION OF BENEFICES (AMENDMENT) MEASURE, 1936.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England

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Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Union of Benefices (Amendment) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is a Measure of rather more importance than the one with which your Lordships have just dealt. The Union of Benefices Measure has been invoked much more freely in the last year or two owing to the great increase of new towns following the removal and clearing away of slum dwellings. Although I do not think anybody can say that the Commissions appointed to consider the union of two benefices are anything but impartial, nevertheless there has been, occasionally, an appearance of partiality which it is desirable to remove. That arises from the fact that where two parishes are to be joined together the Commission consists of four people, and the Chairman has a casting vote. Clause 1 of this Measure, therefore, suggests that an additional member should be appointed in each casein all cases the Commission is to include an additional Commissioner nominated by the Diocesan Conference, and that additional member is to be selected from a panel of six persons appointed by the Diocesan Conference, all those who are supposed to be interested in the particular Commission being excluded. I have sat on various Commissions and I am quite sure that this alteration will make for smoother working.
Clause 2 of the Measure gives rather wider powers to these Commissions. It instructs them to take into consideration the needs of the Church as a whole as well as the needs of the two parishes concerned. That is necessary because of certain legal decisions given in the Courts. As the Measure was drafted previously, if you were unable to prove that either of the parishes concerned was to benefit you could not proceed with the recommendations. Now, by reason of the removal, sometimes the total removal, of populations, parishes are denuded of their populations, and it would be impossible to prove that either parish was going to benefit. The Measure therefore suggests that the Commissioners shall have due regard to the interests of religion generally as well as to the circumstances and claims of the parishes affected by their inquiry, and shall give consideration to the greater interests of the Church as a whole in the diocese. The
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remaining clauses only deal with administrative points of minor importance. The Measure passed through its final stage in the Church Assembly without a division. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Union of Benefices (Amendment) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(Earl Grey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CLERGY PENSIONS (WIDOWS AND DEPENDANTS) MEASURE, 1936.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions (Widows and Dependants) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Measure, I am afraid, is only a small beginning to a very prospective improvement for the clergy. It has been under discussion for many years in the Church Assembly. A Measure was withdrawn in 1932 and was subsequently re-introduced on a draft prepared directly by the House of Clergy in the Church Assembly. It only affects compulsorily future ordinands who are married, and puts the burden at present chiefly on contributions from them. Our experience in these matters is that once we get a nucleus, however small it is, it tends to attract fresh benefactions. The Church Assembly was unanimously of opinion that it would be to the interests of the future clergy of the Church that this Measure should be passed. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Clergy Pensions (Widows and Dependants) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(Earl Grey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

CATHEDRALS (HOUSES OF RESIDENCE) MEASURE, 1936.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House

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do direct that the Cathedrals (Houses of Residence) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this Measure has been prepared by the Cathedral Commissioners to make it possible to deal in certain cases with the houses of resident Deans and Canons of Cathedral Churches. The Ecclesiastical Leasing Acts, 1842 and 1848, gave the Ecclesiastical Corporations power to deal with transfers of land but not power to deal with houses. Modern conditions have proved that some of the houses which remain in possession of the Chapters are too large for their present occupants, and sometimes are not fitted for their present purpose. At the same time, with these disabilities, it is possible under certain conditions to dispose of these houses without adequate safeguards for the general interest. It is possible that some houses of very great architectural and antiquarian interest might be demolished with no consent except that of the Visitor.
This Measure proposes to correct that. Where it is proved desirable in the general interest to make certain alterations in the management of the property of the Chapter as a whole and where houses of historical or antiquarian interest are concerned, it will be necessary to obtain the consent of the Bishop of the diocese, of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and, of course, where the dignity concerned is in Crown patronage, the consent of the Crown as well. Clause 4 (1) (ii) (b) of the Measure provides that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in cases where buildings or objects of archæological, historical or artistic interest are concerned, shall, if necessary, consult the Ancient Monuments Board, and they may also, if they think fit, consult such other authorities as they think right. In all such cases where sales are effected, the funds have to be used for the benefit of the Chapter and all proper safeguards are inserted in the Measure. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Cathedrals (Houses of Residence) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(Earl Grey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS (POWERS) MEASURE, 1936.
EARL GREY EARL GREY moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Powers) Measure, 1936, be presented to His Majesty for the Royal Assent. The noble Earl said: My Lords, this again is a Measure prepared by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and the first three clauses enable the Commissioners to undertake new responsibilities. Clause 1 enables the Commissioners to make a grant of £10,000 a year from their Common Fund for a period of years to assist the formation of a Central Loan Fund, in order to enable new districts springing up outside the big towns to receive help in building parish halls and in the provision of churches. Strictly speaking it would not be necessary for the Commissioners to ask for further powers to do this, but it has always been their practice, in order that the clergy should feel confidence in the way their funds are handled, not to divert money for objects other than the strict cure of souls without seeking legislative authority. Therefore they ask for that power in Clause 1. The sum involved is a small one, but it is likely to be the keystone of the arch in building up the Central Loan Fund.
Clause 2 gives power to take over the incomes of certain new bishoprics which depend on the investment of endowed funds. It is not thought a good thing that the incomes of bishoprics should vary according to whether money is profitably invested or not, and so it is proposed to take over investments and substitute a fixed income. Clause 3 empowers the Commissioners to augment to a maximum of £3,000 a year the income of bishoprics in certain cases. The total involved will be a matter of only £1,450 a year. The remaining clauses of this Measure are only incidental, but I shall be glad to answer any questions about them if any noble Lord wishes to have further information. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Powers) Measure, 1936, be presented to

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His Majesty for the Royal Assent.—(Earl Grey.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COTTON SPINNING INDUSTRY BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SPECIAL AREAS RECONSTRUCTION (AGREEMENT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at seventeen minutes past four o'clock.