CROWN LANDS BILL. (Hansard, 21 July 1936)

§ THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL STANHOPE)
My Lords, this is a Bill on which I do not think I need talk at any length to your Lordships. The object of it is to vest in the Commissioners of Works some Crown lands between Whitehall and the Embankment for the purpose of building the big Government offices which your Lordships know have been under consideration for a very long time. There was a previous Act in 1912 by which parts of this area, called "Northern lands" and "Southern lands" respectively, were to be vested in the Commissioners of Works, but so far only the Southern lands have been so vested. This Bill proposes to vest the Northern lands, and in due course to vest also what are called the "additional lands," which lie to the 99 south of the other areas running down as far as Richmond Terrace and New Scotland Yard.
The value of the additional lands is estimated at £950,000, of which the Receiver for the Metropolitan Police will probably pay somewhere round about £160,000 for the part on which the addition to New Scotland Yard will be built, but I cannot exactly name the figure because it will depend on the valuation which is made and the exact area which is taken over. It is proposed to pay an annuity of £40,000 a year for thirty years for the additional lands, and, with the Northern lands, the payment will amount to a total of £59,000 a year. The buildings which it is proposed to erect on the site of Whitehall Gardens and Montagu House will accommodate some 5,360 civil servants as against 1,185 who are actually accommodated on the area at the present time, and it will save something like £125,000 a year in rents which are at present being paid for hired premises. That really covers Part I of the Bill—Clauses 1 to 4.
Clause 5 enables the Commissioners of Crown Lands to transfer lands for the use of the Forestry Commissioners. They can either transfer land which is already Crown land or, as I think may happen, invest money in the purchase of lands which will then be used by the Forestry Commission. Clause 6 gives power to the Commissioners of Crown Lands to make regulations similar to those which are already in use by the Commissioners of Works for the regulation of the public and so on, and they will apply to such places as Windsor Great Park and other places which are under the control of the Commissioners of Crown Lands. I do not think I need say anything about Clauses 7 and 8, which merely make small drafting Amendments in a previous Act.
But perhaps I should say a word or two about Clause 9. Subsection (1) regulates the management of the Queen's Cottage and Kew Gardens, which places the whole of the management under the control of the Ministry of Agriculture where in fact it has been for some time. The subsection simply regularises that position. Clause 9 (2) is to carry further the policy of abolishing enclosures in Royal Parks, and to regularise the management by the Office of Works of Queen Mary's garden in Regent's 100 Park and also the grounds of St. John's Lodge in the same Park. I think there is nothing further that I need describe to your Lordships. I have a map of the area in Whitehall if any noble Lord would like to see it, and also the plan, but not an elevation of the buildings to be erected. This Bill only affects the land on which the buildings are to be put and not the buildings themselves which really, therefore, hardly enter into the discussion. But if noble Lords would like to see the area to which this Bill refers I should be glad to show them the map outside. I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time.

§ LORD MARLEY
My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to say a word about this matter. We welcome this Bill and we are particularly glad that the Government are proceeding with this work of building these new and very fine Government offices on a site which is only partially used, or perhaps I should say misused, at the present time as it has been since the War. We also welcome the interesting figures given by the noble Earl with regard to the saving of rent at present being paid to other people. This principle can of course be applied generally to land owned nationally and required for national service. We hope this will be yet another instalment towards the further nationalisation of land. I say that without any prejudice, but the figures which have been given show that there is an enormous advantage in it.
There is one question I should like to put to the noble Earl. We should very much like to see the plans, which I think the House would thank him for having so carefully prepared to satisfy your Lordships' legitimate inquiries into this matter. We are very grateful for these plans and would like to see them. The question I wish to ask the noble Earl is this. I understand the staffs who were in the offices which are going to be pulled down to make way for the new buildings are now being put into the Hotel Metropole. May we know whether the Hotel Metropole will be permanently used by the Government now that it has been transformed at considerable expense for offices, or whether it is intended that 101 it should be evacuated when the land referred to in this Bill is built upon? That may not be quite germane to a discussion on this Bill, but perhaps the noble Earl will be good enough to answer the question, if he is able to do so.

§ LORD MOUNT TEMPLE
My Lords, as this may be the only opportunity we may have of discussing this question I should like to ask the noble Earl whether in the new buildings the fine chimney pieces, panelling, and other ancient monuments, if I may so call them, which exist in so many of these houses will be incorporated in the new buildings. In what was, and is still, the Ministry of Transport, we had Cardinal Wolsey's kitchen with his coat-of-arms, we had many 18th century marble mantelpieces, and last, but not least, there was a fine State bedroom panelled from the ceiling to the floor. I hope and trust that, as the chimney-pieces from the old War Office in Pall Mall were transferred to the existing buildings in Whitehall, so the noble Earl will do his very best to utilise these beautiful relics of a bygone age and fit them in to the modern buildings. If he is unable to answer that question now, perhaps the noble Earl will give it his best attention.

§ EARL STANHOPE
My Lords, I think I can answer both questions that have been addressed to me. It is probable that the Hotel Metropole will have to be kept permanently. There is a big increase of staff, and what is being done is to bring in people from out-districts to some extent. As the noble Lord opposite knows, there is a large increase in staffs in several Government Departments, and at present my Department is being pressed very much to find accommodation anywhere within reasonable reach of the centre of London. As regards nationalisation, perhaps the noble Lord will not feel it to be quite such a paying proposition when he realises that the money comes out of one pocket and goes into another; therefore the State does not make anything out of it.
In reply to my noble friend Lord Mount Temple, I do not think mantelpieces will be used in the new building, for the simple reason that there will be no fireplaces in it as it will be centrally heated, but I can assure him that nothing of any value in the present 102 buildings will be thrown away. As he knows, the Office of Works is extremely careful of anything of an historical or artistic interest. I can tell him that already the staircase from Pembroke House is in use. Perhaps I had better appear in a white sheet straight away. I happen to be Chairman of the National Maritime Museum which is coming into being at Greenwich, and in the Queen's House in which part of the collection is to be put there is one magnificent staircase and there is a second which is not quite worthy of Queen's House which, as my noble friend knows, was built by Inigo Jones in 1635. The staircase from Pembroke House is now in the Queen's House and replaces the unworthy staircase there. I hope that when it is open to the public within the next twelve months my noble friend will visit it and feel that it has come to a very good home in going to the Queen's Horse from its original place. I only quote that as an instance of what the Office of Works is doing. The arrangements were made before I became First Commissioner and therefore I have not taken advantage of my office to do something for a museum in which I was particularly interested. I think I have dealt with the points raised and I shall be grateful if your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Beading.