HL Deb 02 July 1936 vol 101 cc464-72

Amendments reported (according to Order).

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, I have on the Paper a formidable number of Amendments. They are all drafting Amendments, with the exception of one which is practically drafting. It has been suggested by the Lord Chairman that it may be the desire of the House that the Amendments on the Paper down to and including Clause 147 be taken en bloc. All those Amendments are drafting or consequential, and I beg to move accordingly.

Amendments moved—

Clause 15, page 10, line 39, leave out ("they") and insert ("the local authority")

Clause 21, page 17, line 28, leave out ("into a sewer belonging to") and insert (", whether directly or indirectly, into the sewers or sewage disposal works of")

Clause 27, page 21, line 35, leave out ("drain or sewer") and insert ("sewer or drain")

Clause 27, page 22, line 3, leave out ("drain or sewer") and insert ("sewer or drain")

Clause 30, page 23, line 14, after ("affect") insert ("prejudicially")

Clause 55, page 41, line 13, leave out ("for") and insert ("with respect to")

line 14, leave out ("for")

Clause 61, page 47, line 30, leave out subsection (3)

Clause 64, page 50, line 2, leave out ("is") and insert ("has been")

Clause 71, page 55, line 8, leave out from ("to") to ("this") in line 11 and insert: ("(a) any buildings, being school premises, erected or to be erected according to plans which are under any regulations relating to the payment of grants required to be, and have been, approved by the Board of Education; or (b) any buildings constructed by a county council or local authority in accordance with plans approved by the Minister of Agriculture and Fisheries under the Small Holdings and Allotments Acts, 1908 to 1931, or any Act amending those Acts or any of them; or (c) any buildings belonging to any statutory undertakers and held or used by them for the purposes of their undertaking:

Provided that the exemption conferred by paragraph (c) of")

Clause 72, page 56, line 7, leave out ("undertake") and insert ("have undertaken")

Clause 72, line 21, leave out ("do not undertake") and insert ("have not undertaken")

Clause 75, page 57, line 28, leave out ("undertake") and insert ("have undertaken")

Clause 111, page 81, line 26, leave out from ("distance") to end of line 28 and insert ("a sufficient supply of wholesome water for domestic purposes")

Clause 132, page 94, line 39, leave out subsection (4)

Clause 111, page 95, line 8, leave out subsection (5) and reinsert it on page 96 at the end of line 2.

Clause 111, page 96, line 9, at end insert ("and (b) if they supply water outside their district, send at least one month before the application is made a copy of the by-laws to the local authority of every district in which any premises to which the by-laws will apply are situate.")

Clause 138, page 93, line 38, leave out ("is without") and insert ("has not, either in the house or within a reasonable distance thereof,")

Clause 147, page 107, line 21, leave out subsection (2)

page 108, line 6, at end insert ("Any such temporary order shall specify the period during which it is to continue in operation ").—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 158:

Persons ceasing to occupy house to disclose to owner any recent case of notifiable disease, and to disinfect.

(2) The local authority shall give notice of the provisions of this section to the occupier and also to the owner of any house in which they are aware that there is a person suffering from a notifiable disease.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "and also to the owner."The noble Earl said: My Lords, I shall not take up your time at any length. Those words did not appear in the Bill as originally drafted. They were put in at the request of the National Federation of Property Owners, but as there has not been time to consult them formally, if there is any objection raised I shall not press the Amendment but hope that the matter may come up for consideration again at some later stages.

Amendment moved— Page 113, line 29, leave out ("and also to the owner").—(The Earl of Courtown.)

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, on behalf of the National Federation of Property Owners I object to this Amendment.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, it remains for me to say very little. In the circumstances I think the course suggested by my noble friend is the best one—namely, that this Amendment should not be made at this stage.

THE EARL OF COURTOWN

My Lords, I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, I beg to move that the next three Amendments standing in my name be agreed to. They are all drafting Amendments.

Amendments moved—

Clause 189, page 131, line 21, leave out ("this Part of this Act") and insert ("the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to nursing homes").

Clause 231, page 153, line 5, leave out ("apparatus") and insert ("appliances").

Clause 263, page 166, line 11, leave out ("the preceding subsection") and insert ("this section").—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 269:

Power of local authority to control use of moveable dwellings.

(5) Nothing in this section applies—

(ii) to a moveable dwelling (belonging to a person who is the proprietor of a travelling circus, roundabout, amusement fair or store (not being a pedlar, hawker, or costermonger) while it is being used by him in the course of travelling for the purpose of his business; or

(6) If an organisation satisfies the Minister that it takes reasonable steps for securing—

  1. (a) that camping sites belonging to or provided by it, or used by its members, are properly managed and kept in good sanitary condition; and
  2. (b) that moveable dwellings used toy its members are so used as not to give rise to any nuisance,
the Minister may grant to that organisation a certificate of exemption.

In this subsection the expression "member" in relation to an organisation includes a member of any branch or unit of the organisation.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (ii) of subsection (5), after "fair," to insert "stall." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I suggest to my noble friend Lord Gage that the word "stall" should be inserted in this clause because it is a well-known term in the show world. "Stallholder" includes those responsible for all the smaller games and that sort of thing other than roundabouts, circuses, and switchbacks. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 172, line 18, after ("fair") insert ("stall.")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, we agree to accept this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (ii) of subsection (5), to leave out "while" and insert "provided that". The noble Viscount said: "My Lords, showmen use their caravans as homes, and in the nature of their business they have to travel about continually from fair to fair all the year round. Other caravan users use them for week-ends, holidays, and such like, whereas the showman uses his caravan the whole year round for his business. These showmen have used their caravans in this way for a very long time, and they feel they are entitled to some consideration. When the original Bill was issued, Clause 267, now Clause 268, related to tents, vans, sheds, etc. This clause was carefully considered, but nothing in it appeared to injure their calling. The Guild of Showmen, however, was much surprised to find that the Bill, as amended by the Joint Committee, contained a lengthy new clause, Clause 269—some five pages of print—relating to moveable dwellings, but still under the heading of tents, vans, sheds, etc., and it feels that the claims of its members who must use their caravans have been overlooked. The Guild of Showmen does not wish to take steps to hold up the Bill when it is returned to the House of Commons for consideration, and it has therefore endeavoured to keep its Amendments to the minimum it is entitled to ask for.

I hope that my noble friend will see his way to accept this Amendment. In all Private Bills which contain clauses relating to tents and sheds, the following exemption is inserted: Any person dwelling in a tent or van or other similar structure such as a roundabout proprietor, travelling showman or stallholder, not being a pedlar or hawker…. This exemption, with slight alterations, has been in use for upwards of twenty-five years, and I think it is reasonable that this Amendment should be accepted.

Amendment moved— Page 172, line 20, leave out ("while") and insert ("provided that").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, this is an Amendment of somewhat greater substance. It raises, it seems to me, two questions. Firstly, is the object in view a good one; and secondly, do the words of the Amendment carry out their objective? On the first point I think your Lordships will agree that we ought not to interfere unreasonably with the legitimate carrying on of this very old-fashioned business of a travelling showman. It might be argued that by petty regulation of the camping sites of the showmen, some such effect might be produced. That is why we have introduced into this Bill the clause which the noble Lord wishes to amend. Perhaps I had better read it to your Lordships: it will be found on page 172. The exemption applies: to a moveable dwelling belonging to a person who is the proprietor of a travelling circus, roundabout, amusement fair or store (not being a pedlar, hawker or costermonger) while it, is being used by him in the course of travelling for the purpose of his business. We think that those words do cover the case of a showman who is actively engaged in his business, but if the showman closes down his business, say, for the winter, which I believe is quite a common practice among some of them, then we do not see any particular reason why that showman should not be subjected to regulations in respect of perfectly legitimate sanitary requirements, for in that case he is using his van as a residence.

After all, every residence in this country is subject to some form of sanitary regulation. There have been some rather glaring cases of the necessity for these regulations. The words which my noble friend proposes to insert here, may, we feel, have the effect of permanently exempting these vans from the control of these licensing requirements. I am not a lawyer, but we are not at all sure what would be the legal effect of the meaning of the word "regularly", the insertion of which, after "used", is suggested by the noble Viscount in another Amendment. Is a van which is travelling in the summer months but laid up in the winter used regularly for travelling? It is a difficult question, but if the answer is "Yes" then such a van would be entirely exempted. To sum up, the whole of the clause as drafted is to avoid imposing hampering restrictions on the carrying on of the showman's business. He has no good ground for exemption apart from this, and if he lives in the van he should be subject to the same restrictions as other persons. Therefore I regret I must resist this Amendment and I hope, for the reasons I have given, my noble friend will withdraw it.

THE EARL OF ON SLOW

My Lords, I have not the papers here which were handed to the Committee dealing with this clause. I have not had time to get them because, as your Lordships are aware, I was recently occupied in the Chair when your Lordships' House was in Committee. I therefore was unable to go out and get the papers, but my recollection is that this is the usual form of words and that it comes from Private Acts. My noble friend below me (Viscount Gage) will correct me if I am wrong. It is, I believe, the usual form inserted in Private Acts. As your Lordships will see and as my noble friend pointed out, the subsection says that nothing in this section applies to a moveable dwelling belonging to a travelling circus. I should have thought that that ought to have satisfied my noble friend Lord Bertie, because it seems to me to do what he requires, if I understood him rightly. I think if we were to alter it in the manner my noble friend has suggested we should perhaps be going rather farther in altering the law as it exists in Private Acts or in Public Acts than we intended to, or that the Joint Committee set out to do.

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME

My Lords, I do not propose to press this Amendment now, but I do hope my noble friend Lord Gage will allow me to see him between now and Third Reading to discover if he cannot do something, because I really think there is a case.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD SOMERS moved, before "the organisation" at the end of subsection (6), to insert "or formed by". The noble Lord said: This really is only a drafting Amendment. I desire the words which I propose in my Amendment to be inserted in order to cover all members of the Boy Scouts and Guides associations and the Salvation Army. The words "or formed by" would cover all units that are not already covered in the wording of the Bill. I hope the Government will see their way to accept this small Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 173, line 8, after ("of") insert ("or formed by").—(Lord Somers.)

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, we accept this Amendment. It is, as the noble Lord has pointed out, more or less a drafting Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, the Amendments down in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Page 173, line 24, leave out ("urban") and insert ("local").

Page 173, line 33, leave out ("as aforesaid") and insert ("as is mentioned in subsection (2) or subsection (3) of this section").—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, the Amendments down in my name to Clauses 287, 290 and 291 are drafting. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Clause 287, page 183, line 27, leave out from ("provisions") to end of section and insert ("of Parts IX and X of this Act with respect to entry into or upon, and inspection of, common lodging-houses and canal boats.")

Clause 290, page 185, line 10, leave out ("any") and insert ("the")

Clause 291, page 186, line 14, leave out ("subject as aforesaid.")—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 313 [Orders for amendment or adaptation of local Acts, etc.]:

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to insert the following new subsection: (3) Any order made under this section shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of thirty days during the Session of Parliament, and, if before the expiration of that period either House resolves that the order be annulled, it shall be void, but without prejudice to the making of a new order: Provided that in reckoning any such period of thirty days as aforesaid no account shall be taken of any time during which both Houses are adjourned for more than four days. The noble Viscount said: My Lords, this is the same Amendment as that which I moved yesterday to the Bill of which the noble Lord, Lord Gainford, was in charge. It brings this Bill into line with that Bill, and I unashamedly confess that it is the result of secret negotiations with the Department. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 194, line 33, at end insert the said new subsection.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, as the noble Viscount has already informed your Lordships, the negotiations have ended in the Government's acceptance of this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT GAGE

My Lords, the whole of the remaining Amendments on the Paper are drafting. If there is any explanation required I shall be very pleased to try to give it, but I think it will be convenient to your Lordships that the Amendments be taken en bloc. I beg to move.

Amendments moved—

Clause 315, page 195, line 28, after ("and") insert (", if the committee represent two or more councils or authorities, may")

Clause 315, page 195, line 30, at end insert ("councils and")

Clause 332, page 203, line 33, at end insert ("under either of the two last preceding sections")

Clause 332, page 203, line 36, leave out ("under the last but one preceding section")

Clause 332, page 204, line 3, leave out ("mentioned in the last preceding section")

Clause 343, page 210, line 33, after ("yards") insert ("appurtenant to buildings,")

Clause 346, page 216, line 30, at end insert: (" (2) If any enactments or words mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act are, wholly or partly, re-enacted in a Consolidation Act of the present Session of Parliament, the references in the said Schedule to those enactments or words shall be construed as including references to such enactments or words in the Consolidation Act as His Majesty in Council may declare to be corresponding enactments or words, and accordingly any enactments and words to which such declaration extends shall also be repealed by this section.")

Third Schedule, page 221, line 26, after ("eight") insert ("three hundred and nine")

Third Schedule, page 223, line 11, at end insert ("3 & 4 Vict. c. 85.—The Chimney Sweepers and Chimneys Regulation Act, 1840.—Section six.")

Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column in line 31, leave out ("and subsection (1) of Section nine")

Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column leave out lines 26 to 28 and insert ("In subsection (4) of Section twenty-four the words ' new buildings and,' and")

Third Schedule, page 226, in the third column leave out lines 40 to 43 and insert ("In Section one hundred and one the words ' or buildings ' ")

Third Schedule, page 228, in the first column in line 26, leave out (" 55 & 56 ") and insert ("54 & 55 ").—(Viscount Gage.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.