FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL. [H.L.] (Hansard, 26 February 1936)

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD
I should like to ask the noble Earl to give some explanation of the first subsection of this clause. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has placed an Amendment on the Paper to leave out the word "firearm" and to insert "sub-machine gun," but I see he is not in his place. The subsection, as I read it, provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to possess any automatic firearm without permission from the 796 Admiralty, Army Council or Air Council. I can hardly think that can be the purpose of the clause. If it is not, I should be glad to be reassured, and if it is I respectfully suggest that some form of definition should be introduced to make it perfectly clear. The noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, in the Amendment he put upon the Paper, proposed to substitute the description "sub-machine gun" for "firearm," but I think that would hardly meet the case, because I am not quite sure whether a definition exists of "submachine gun." I think the point deserves investigation.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM
The noble Lord has raised a point in respect of which the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, put an Amendment on the Paper, which aparently he does not desire to move. Clause 7 as it stands at present deals with firearms which are designed or adapted so that, if pressure is applied to the trigger, missiles continue to be discharged from the barrel of the gun until pressure is removed from the trigger or the magazine is exhausted. The definition of a continuous firearm includes machine guns of all calibres. It includes the light automatic, the Lewis gun, the Hotchkiss gun, the Vickers gun and the Maxim gun, and any type of machine gun pistol. It excludes pistols and revolvers which are not fully automatic in the sense that they are not continuous fire weapons, but weapons that are worked by one pull one shot, unless of course they have been tampered with to make them fire continuously. The proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, was to substitute "sub-machine gun" for "firearm." That would immediately raise doubts as to the class of weapon to which the clause does or does not apply. It is thought that the definition as it now stands under the wording of "continuous firearm" is much more clear than "sub-machine gun." I hope from this explanation that the noble Earl will clearly understand that Clause 7 does not include pistols and revolvers which are not automatic in the sense that they are not continuous fire weapons because you have to release the trigger. They are one-pull-one-shot weapons.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD
I am much obliged for the explanation.

THE EARL or MANSFIELD
I should like to raise a point on this clause. Subsection (1) says that: No person other than a registered firearms dealer shall shorten the barrel of a smooth bore gun to a length less than twenty inches. I should like to ask why this type of shortened shot gun should be legal at all. It has no sporting value, and as far as I can see it can only be used for improper purposes.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM
The reason for providing in this clause that no smooth bore gun should be less than 20 inches in length is that the Act of 1920 did not stipulate that smooth bore guns should be controlled by a firearms certificate, with the result that several weapons, commonly called toy pistols, were manufactured with a barrel much less than that usually used for smooth bore guns. It has been a common thing since the inception of the Act of 1920 to find on the market firearms of from 12 to 15 inches in length which come under the definition of a smooth bore shot gun. Those weapons, from the recommendations of the Departmental Committee under the chairmanship of Sir Archibald Bodkin, were considered to be sufficiently dangerous to warrant a firearms certificate. That is the purpose of Clause 9.

TEE EARL OE MANSFIELD
I thank the noble Earl. I am sorry to be persistent, but I think that hardly answers my question. Clause 9 (1) lays down: No person other than a registered firearms dealer shall shorten the barrel of a smooth bore gun to a length less than twenty inches. That does not apply to the weapons specified by the noble Earl, which have started life as less than twenty inches.

THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM
The noble Earl has certainly raised a point which I regret I did not cover in my earlier remarks. It is contended that it is quite unnecessary for any private individual to shorten his shot gun unless he receives the necessary certificate. It would therefore be within the powers of any individual to change his shot gun, provided he obtained the necessary certificate so 798 to do. That is considered necessary because certain individuals wish, for sporting reasons, to have a shot gun less than 20 inches in length; although I entirely agree with the noble Earl that this is different from the common practice.

THE EARL OF MANSFIELD
I thank the noble Earl, and still adhere to my opinion that those weapons—shortened shot guns—should be relegated to the category of ordinary prohibited weapons.