Lords Sitting of 25 July 1935

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The EARL OF ONSLOW on the Woolsack.

SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I beg to move that Standing Order No. 171 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of these Bills. The object of doing this is to expedite the Bills. If the Standing Order were not suspended the Bills could not be read a third time until the 29th of July, and that might be too late.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 171 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bills.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORA TION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
Read 3a with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION BILL.
Read 3a with the Amendments: Further Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (FYLDE PRESTON AND GARSTANG JOINT SMALL-POX HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (NORWICH) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (OTTERSHAW JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (OXFORD) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (PWLLHELI) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, perhaps the noble Marquess the Leader of the House would be good enough to inform us what the course of business will be next week before the Recess?
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for putting this question, and I will endeavour to give him all the information which is in my possession. I suggest that your Lordships should meet at three o'clock every day next week except on Friday, on which day, as your Lordships are aware, the House will meet in the morning for the adjournment before the Recess. On Monday there will be the Second Reading of the Cattle Industry (Emergency Provisions) (No. 2) Bill, and the House of Commons Disqualification (Declaration of Law) Bill. We are proposing to take the Second Reading of the British. Sugar (Subsidy) Bill on Tuesday next instead of on Monday as was originally proposed. The reason for this will no doubt be appreciated by noble Lords. There is a statement to be made in another place on the same day. On Thursday there will be consideration of Amendments which have been made in another place to the Restriction of Ribbon Development Bill. During the week several Motions which I think will be of great interest to your Lordships' House will be discussed. That is the outline of the business which it is pro-
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posed to take next week. I do not know if the noble Lord wishes to ask any further question in regard to it.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: No, thank you.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I beg to move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the Housing (Scotland) Bill through its remaining stages.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being dispensed with for the purpose of passing the Housing (Scotland) Bill through its remaining stages.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

AYR COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS CON SOLIDATION ORDER CONFIRMA TION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (SCARBOROUGH) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order), on re-commitment of the Bill: The Amendment proposed by the Committee made.

MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Order of the Day read for the House to be put into Committee on re-commitment of the Bill.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I beg to move that the House resolve itself into Committee upon the Marriages Provisional Orders Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Feversham.)
THE EARL Of' ONSLOW: My Lords, before the House goes into Committee

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on this Bill I should like to repeat what I said in the unopposed Committee yesterday. We have not had one of these Marriages Provisional Orders Bills for a considerable time. I remember that when I was at the Home Office we used to have them fairly often. They are brought forward in order to make good mistakes which have been made, and to legalise marriages which have been solemnised in places not properly licensed. This Bill covers several churches, among them Holy Trinity, Forest Green, Okewood. This church was consecrated in 1934 but was not licensed. The Vicar made a mistake and solemnised two marriages in the church last year. This Provisional Order Bill is introduced to put the matter straight. What I wish to draw attention to, and what I rather hope the attention of the diocese may be called to, is the fact that the Vicar has stated that he does not propose to take out a, licence for this church for marriages in the future. I venture to think that is an unfortunate decision, because the same mistake might be made again, perhaps even more easily, because this matter having been the subject of an Act of Parliament to put right a mistake, people will naturally think that in future marriages can be solemnised there. Of course the present Vicar will know, but he may go elsewhere and his successor may not know anything about it. Therefore I venture to hope that what I am saying may reach the proper quarter and that this church may be licensed in order to prevent the possibility of any mistake of the same kind occurring again.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL STAN-HOPE): My Lords, this Bill comes before your Lordships almost as an entirely formal matter. It is intended to bring Isle of Man Customs legislation into line with legislation passed here. Your Lordships have agreed to these provisions in the Finance Act this year, and therefore I think I need say nothing further about
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it because you are already fully acquainted with the matter.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Stanhope.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALIFAX): My Lords, I do not think I need keep your Lordships more than a minute or two explaining the circumstances in which this Bill comes to be brought forward. Your Lordships will be aware that under the Superannuation Acts teachers' pensions are to-day governed mainly by the average salary that they have received in the last five years of their service. It will be apparent, therefore, that any reduction that they might have suffered in reduction of salary is automatically reflected in their retiring pensions. Unless some provision is made the reduction in teachers' salaries that was in operation from 1st October, 1931, to 30th June, 1935, would inflict considerable loss upon those individuals who happened to have retired from service either during the period of the reduction or the five years after the restoration of the cuts had been made. That reduction would, in some instances, I am advised, have amounted to no less than 6½ per cent. of the permanent pension. Therefore your Lordships will see that that situation would have inflicted no inconsiderable hardship upon some people, continuing not only for the period of the cuts but for the whole continuing period after the cuts had been restored.
Owing to the system of contributions on which these pensions are based—namely, 5 per cent. on the teacher's salary paid by the teacher himself, 2½ per cent. paid by the employer and 2½ per cent. paid by the Board of Education—it would have been necessary, if we were to proceed on the old regular basis on this matter, either to have collected retrospectively contributions from local education authorities and teachers, which would have been an extremely cumbersome and difficult thing to do, or to have

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considerably increased the Government contribution. The scheme in this Bill is that as from the 1st July, 1935, the annual superannuation allowance to which a teacher is entitled shall in no case be less than 98 per cent. of what he would have received if there had been no salary cut. To secure this end the Government are prepared to find £1,000,000 for England and Wales and a corresponding amount for Scotland, which is approximately the amount that would have been necessary had there been no salary cuts.
This Bill, which I recommend to your Lordships, has to my mind the double advantage that it avoids the cumbersome and complicated procedure of the alternative to which I pave referred, and it gives teachers the maximum possible benefit in the circumstances on terms which their representatives have accepted as a full and final settlement. I had the opportunity myself before I left the Board of Education of receiving representatives of nearly all the main organisations of teachers, and I think that I can assure your Lordships that it is generally accepted as a full settlement of a rather difficult question, and a settlement without which the State would have been in some danger of inflicting permanent hardship upon a body of public servants to whom, they would always wish to do justice.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

CRIMINAL LUNATICS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT
[The references are to Bill No. 44.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 12, at end insert:
("(2) The criminal lunatic asylum established in pursuance of this Act (hereinafter
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referred to as the criminal lunatic asylum) shall be deemed not to be an asylum within the meaning of the Lunacy (Scotland) Acts, 1857 to 1919.")
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this new subsection is required in view of the definition of "public asylum" in the Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1857, and of the use of the expression "asylum" in the Lunacy (Scotland) Acts. If the new subsection were not inserted, various provisions of the Lunacy Acts which are quite inappropriate would apply to the criminal lunatic asylum, and the asylum would be placed under the dual control of the Prisons Department for Scotland and the General Board of Control for Scotland. The Lunacy Acts never had in contemplation an asylum managed by a Government Department.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 2, page 1, line 15, leave out from ("asylum") to ("a") in line 17.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment consequent upon the insertion of the new subsection in Clause 1.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 2, line 19, leave out ("reasonably").
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this is also a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Stratheona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 4, page 2, line 31, leave out from ("that") to end of line 32 and insert:

("(i) the Department shall, on application made by or oil behalf of any person in whose case such an order as aforesaid has been made, afford an opportunity to a medical practitioner employed by such person or on his behalf to examine him not

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later than thirty days after the date of the order, and the Secretary of State shall consider any report by such medical practitioner which may be submitted to him, and shall take such action as may seem to him necessary in all the circumstances of the case;

(ii) the Department shall, if any person detained in the criminal lunatic asylum in pursuance of this subsection recovers his sanity before the expiry of his sentence")

LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to confer a right upon any person whose removal to the criminal lunatic asylum has been ordered by the Prisons Department while he is undergoing a sentence of penal servitude, preventive detention or imprisonment, to be examined by his own doctor or by a doctor employed by his relatives or friends. This doctor's report will be considered by the Secretary of State, who will review the whole situation and issue such order as may be necessary.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 4, page 2, line 36, after ("practitioners") insert (" (one of whom shall be a medical practitioner who is not a salaried officer of the Department)").
LORD STRATHCONA AND (MOUNT ROYAL): My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is that certification under Clause 4 (2) of the Bill will not be certification solely by medical practitioners who are salaried officers of the Prisons Department for Scotland. One of the certificates will normally be issued by a medical officer of the criminal lunatic asylum, who will be a salaried officer of the Prisons Department and will have, from his work in the asylum, an expert knowledge of the case which he is certifying. The other certificate will be issued by a medical man who is not a salaried officer of the Prisons Department but is either in the service of the General Board of Control for Scotland or in independent practice.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Strathcona and Moant Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 3, line 4, at end insert:
("Provided that—

(i) the Department shall, on application made by or on behalf of any such person as aforesaid, afford an opportunity to a medical practitioner employed by him or on his behalf to examine him not later than fourteen days before the expiry of his sentence, and the Secretary of State, before making an order under his subsection for the detention of such person, shall consider any report by such medical practitioner which may be submitted to him not later than ten days before the said expiry;

(ii) the Department shall cause any person detained in the criminal lunatic asylum in pursuance of an order under this subsection to be medically examined at intervals as nearly as may be of three months and a report to be furnished to the Secretary of State whether such person is insane, whether he can be set at liberty without danger to the public or to himself, and whether, if lie is insane, it is advisable that he should be further detained in the criminal lunatic asylum rather than in any other asylum, and the Secretary of State shall, on receipt of such report, consider whether any and, if so, what further detention is necessary.")

LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the object of the first paragraph of this Amendment is to confer a right upon any person proposed to be detained after the expiry of his sentence in the criminal lunatic asylum to be examined by his own doctor or by a doctor employed by his relatives or friends. This doctor's report will be considered by the Secretary of State before he makes an order for the person's detention after the expiry of the sentence. The second paragraph of the Amendment provides for the quarterly medical examination of every person who is detained after the expiry of his sentence in the criminal lunatic asylum, and for the review of each case by the Secretary of State in the light of the quarterly medical reports.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE AND CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8 [Amendment of e. 97 of Insurance Act as to summary proceedings]:
VISCOUNT GAGE: All the Amendments to this clause are drafting, designed to facilitate the preparation of the Consolidation Bill for National Health Insurance which is now in hand. I beg to move the first Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 17, leave out ("Any sum paid by an employer under this subsection") and insert ("The said sum when paid").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved, in subsection (3) (b), to leave out "may be recovered as a civil debt" and insert "proceedings for the recovery of the said sum summarily as a civil debt may be commenced at any time within twelve months from the date of the order for payment made on the company." The noble Viscount said: There a slight alteration in this Amendment. I have to move it in this form: "Leave out from 'and' in line 37 to the end of line 38, instead of 'line 24,' as appears on the Paper, and insert the words as printed.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 37, leave out from ("and") to the end of line 33 and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT GAGE: This, also, is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 41, leave out ("an insured") and insert ("any").—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 21 agreed to.
Clause 22:
Application to Scotland.
22.—In the application of this Act to Scotland references to a complaint shall be substituted for references to a summons or warrant.
VISCOUNT GAGE VISCOUNT GAGE moved to leave out all words after "Scotland" and insert:

"(a) for the expression summons or warrant' the expression complaint 'shall be substituted;

(b) any provision with regard to the recovery of a sum or amount summarily as a civil debt shall have effect as if the word 'summarily' were omitted therefrom;

(c) the subsections directed by Section six of this Act to be inserted in Section eighty-nine of the Insurance Act shall have effect as if for the expression 'summons' the expression 'notice' were substituted."

The noble Viscount said: I move this Amendment in the form in which it appears standing in my name on the second Amendment Paper. This is a substitution for the words which appear in the first Amendment Paper. It is purely a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, leave out lines 12 and 13 and insert the said new words.—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule [Minor and consequential Amendments of National Health Insurance Act, 1924]:
VISCOUNT GAGE: This is consequential on previous Amendments.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 10, at end insert:
"Section 96.—In subsection (2), after the words in satisfaction of such contributions' there shall be inserted the words and the employed person's portion of those contributions shall not be recoverable by the employer from the employed person '."—(Viscount Gage.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.

PUBLIC HEALTH (WATER AND SEWERAGE) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

HOUSING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 8:
Recovery of possession of overcrowded house.
8.—(1) Where a dwelling-house is overcrowded in such circumstances as to render

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the occupier thereof guilty of an offence, nothing in the Rent and Mortgage interest Restrictions Acts, 1920 to 1933, shall prevent the landlord from obtaining possession of the house.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE THE DUKE OF MONTROSE moved, in subsection (1), after "1933", to insert "or the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts, 1886 to 1931,". The noble Duke said: My Lords, I move this Amendment because I cannot see that, where overcrowding of houses becomes an offence, crofters and small landholders are brought within the provisions of this Bill. In the case of other small dwellings this clause enables a landowner to recover possession of the house and so be in a position to rectify the offence. The occupier might plead the security of tenure under the Rent Restrictions Acts, but this clause makes such pleadings null and void. In the case of a crofter, however, I suppose, and indirectly, I suppose, of a cotter, too, the pleading of fixity of tenure under the Small Landholders Act would stand, because without my Amendment I do not see any clause in this Bill which would render such pleadings null and void; and I do not see that a landowner can recover possession of his property from his guilty tenant or that he can do anything to rectify this overcrowding. It would be lamentable if a privileged class like smallholders and crofters should be created, and that anyone could avoid the provisions of this Bill by simply adding an acre or two to his house and becoming a smallholder. I therefore beg to move my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 34, after ("1933") insert ("or the Small Landholders (Scotland) Acts. 1886 to 1931").—(The Duke of Montrose.)
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Duke for giving myself and the Department previous information as to the details of his object in moving this Amendment. Subsection (1) of the clause, as it stands, provides that nothing in the Rent Restrictions Acts shall prevent a landlord from obtaining possession of an overcrowded house. That is to say, it applies to controlled houses for which rent is paid for tenancy in the ordinary way. In resisting this Amendment I should like to remind your Lordships that the tenure of small landholders and crofters' houses, with which
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the Small Landholders Acts deal, is, however, on an entirely different footing. A small landholder or crofter is not an ordinary tenant. Indeed, in many respects the Small Landholders Acts place him in the position of an owner, and the Bill must treat him as being in that position. That is the reason why Clause 8 cannot be applied to small landholders as is suggested. I gather, however, that the noble Duke's main concern is to secure that crofters and small landholders should be brought within the provisions of the Bill, so that it will be an offence for them to overcrowd their houses as in the case of other occupiers.
May I assure him that there is no distinction drawn in the Bill in favour of crofters and small landholders from this point of view? This is made clear by Clause 12, which brings all dwelling-houses within the scope of the overcrowding provisions except houses with a rateable value of more than £45. The Bill definitely applies to crofters and small landholders, who will be liable to penalties for overcrowding after the appointed day in the same way as ordinary tenants. With this explanation I hope that the noble Duke will see his way to withdraw his Amendment.
THE DUKE OF MONTROSE: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for his very full explanation, and for the assurance which he has given me. At the same time I think I would like to say that if it is the fact that dwelling-houses of a less rateable value than £45 are brought within the scope of the overcrowding provisions, I do not follow what is the object in Clause 8 of the reference to the Rent and Mortgage Interest Restrictions Acts. In view, however, of the assurance that crofters and small landholders are brought within the Bill, I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD SPEAKER: I think the other two Amendments in the name of the noble Duke are consequential, and therefore they will not be moved.
Clause 22:
Scottish Housing Advisory Committee.
22.—(1) The Department shall appoint a committee, to be called the Scottish Housing Advisory Committee, for the purpose of—
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert:
"(d) considering the operation of the enactments relating to housing and making to the Department such representations as the Committee think desirable concerning the execution of those enactments in relation to the general housing needs of the working classes."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has been put down to implement the pledge given at the Committee stage to Lord Hutchison of Montrose, who moved on behalf of Lord Balfour of Burleigh. The Amendment gives the Scottish Housing Advisory Committee specific power whereby, on their own initiative, they may make representations to the Department about the execution of the Housing Acts in relation to general questions affecting the housing needs of the working classes. The Amendment substantially embodies the proposal contained in the Amendment moved by Lord Hutchison at the Committee stage.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line paragraph (d).—(Lord strathcona Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34 [Amendments]:
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, the first of the Amendments to this clause is drafting, and the second consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 30, line 30, leave out ("Act, 1926") and insert ("Acts, 1926 and 1931")
line 31, leave out ("that") and insert ("the first mentioned").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 47 [Conditions to be observed by local authorities]:
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL moved to insert after subsection (6):
"(7) For the purposes of any enactment relating to valuation or rating, the gross annual value of any dwelling-house or dwelling to which this section applies shall riot exceed the rent (exclusive of occupier's rates) fixed in pursuance of this section, and no account shall be taken of any rebate from the rent so fixed."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is little more than a drafting Amendment. The new subsection which the Amend-
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ment proposes to insert in Clause 47 takes the place of Section 43 of the 1930 Act and the Amendment of that Section proposed in the Fifth Schedule on page 80 at line 11. That is to say, the Amendment merely makes clear what has been the intention of the Government all along—namely, that the rent of a local authority house to be entered in the valuation roll for certain purposes is to be the market rent fixed under Clause 47 (5), and not that rent as reduced by any rebate granted to a tenant.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 31, at end, insert the said subsection (7).—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 70:
By-laws.
70.—(1) A local authority may, and if required by the Department shall, make, with respect to house; used or intended to be used for human habitation, by-laws regarding any of the following matters and applying as follows, that is to say—
(i) by-laws applying to new houses, re-garding—
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL moved, in subsection (1) (i), to insert "(f) the height of ceilings." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment is put down to implement a promise given to Lord Elgin at the Committee stage. In effect the Amendment enables local authorities to make by-laws for regulating the height of ceilings in new houses. Local authorities in burghs have already powers of this kind but there are no corresponding powers available to county councils, who have made representations to the Government on the matter.
Amendment moved—
Page 53, line 3, at end, insert ("(f) the height of ceilings;")—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75:
Duty of local authority to have regard to amenity, &e.
75.—(1) Section twenty-eight of the Act of 1930 (which imposes a duty on local authorities to have regard to amenity) shall have effect as if the words "artistic quality in the lay-out, planning and treatment of the houses to be provided" had been inserted therein after the words "shall have regard to."
(2) For their better advice in carrying out the requirements of the said Section twenty-eight a local authority may, and if required by the Department shall, appoint a local advisory committee incuding representatives of architectural and other artistic interests.
LORD ALNESS LORD ALNESS moved to add the following words to subsection (2): "and the local 'authority shall furnish to the Department a copy of any representation, recommendation or report made to them by the committee." The noble and learned Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to what I might term the amenities clause of the Bill, to the valuable provisions of which I ventured to call your Lordships' attention on its Second Reading. In the first place your Lordships will agree, I think, that it is desirable that where a scheme for redevelopment or slum clearance includes houses which possess architectural or artistic or historical value, those houses should be preserved in so far as is consistent with the proper planning of the area. The villages of Scotland contain many such houses, and I venture very respectfully to call the attention of the advisory committees which 'are being set up under this clause to this particular aspect of their functions.
The object of my Amendment is, first, to ensure that the views of the local advisory committee with regard to this matter shall be fully before the Department of Health, in order that they may take any action upon it which seems to them proper. The second point is that it will ensure that the views of the local advisory committee shall be before the Department of Health with regard to the new housing schemes from the point of view of general amenity, lay-out, and so forth, in order that any action which may be deemed proper may be taken. My Amendment ensures these two, as I venture to think, wholly admirable results. Therefore I do not stress them further or occupy your Lordships' time by further arguing the matter.
Amendment moved—
Page 56, line 18, at end, insert the said words.—(Lord Alness.)
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, in accepting the Amendment I should like to assure the noble Lord that the Government do attach great importance to the need of improving the amenities of housing
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schemes in Scotland, and for that reason the Bill proposes the appointment of local advisory committees. The Government agree that it is desirable that the Department should be furnished with a copy of any recommendation or report made by a local committee to the authority.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fifth Schedule [Consequential, drafting and minor Amendments]:
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, these are both consequential Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 80, leave out lines 11 to 17.
Page 81, line 27, after ("Schedule") insert ("for the words sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii)' there shall be substituted the words (`sub-paragraph (ii)',").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Sixth Schedule: Part 1 [Enactments repealed as from the commencement of this Act]:
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this is consequential on the insertion of the new subsection in Clause 47.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, leave out lines 7 and 8 and insert ("Section forty-three").—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a third time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal.)
On Question, Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

HOURS OF EMPLOYMENT (CONVENTIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE (CREDITING OF CONTRIBUTIONS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

WORKING HOURS IN LENDING LIBRARIES.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH rose to move to resolve, That this House would welcome legislation designed to bring lending libraries carried on with a view to profit within the scope of the Acts that regulate the hours of opening in the case of shops. The noble Earl said: My Lords, no doubt many of your Lordships have observed the very great growth in the last few years of popular lending libraries; that is, libraries which carry on their business with the public in a very simple way. They do not require any subscription or any deposit, and any member of the public who likes to pay twopence can take a book out and keep it for a week. The books in which they deal are admirable from the point of view of the entertainment of the public, but no one would claim that they have any particular educational value. They consist, in chief, of fiction, and I am informed that the books most in demand are those which deal with the subjects of love and blood—both excellent things in their places.
I have nothing bat commendation and praise for the commercial initiative of those who have provided the public with cheap and harmless entertainment in this manner, but I felt it my duty to call the attention of the House to the fact that there are no restrictions whatever upon the hours during which these lending libraries may be open. They do not come under the definition of "shops" in the Shops Act, 1912, which governs the hours of opening in the case of shops. Nor were they included when the later Act of 1028 was passed, for the simple reason that these popular libraries were not then, apparently, contemplated. I have in my hand an advertisement of one of the large firms which are responsible for lending libraries of this character in various parts of the country. I may say that it is my information that most of the twopenny lending libraries are in the hands of large firms, and that there is not much scope for individual initiative in this branch of trade. The particular firm to which I am referring has twenty-five branches in towns throughout England, from Liverpool in the North to Worthing in the South, and of those twenty-five branches two open at eight o'clock in the morning, and the rest open at half-past eight in the morning. I would venture to
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direct the attention of the House to the hours at which they close. In the case of nine of these branches the closing hour is eleven o'clock at night, and in the case of the rest, with one exception, the closing hour is ten o'clock at night. Thus, looking down the list of branches I find that there is a library at Manchester which opens at eight in the morning and closes at eleven at night; that is to say, it is open for a fifteen-hour day.
But that is not the most surprising feature of the situation. I see at the bottom of this advertisement an announcement that all branches are open every day, Sundays and early closing days included. Therefore they are open between thirteen and a half hours and fifteen hours daily for seven days in the week. I am glad to say that, in so far as Sunday trading is concerned, I have just this moment received information that a judgment has been given by the magistrates of Bull that carrying on the business of a lending library is included in the words "trafficking in goods" as used in the Act, and that therefore it may be established as illegal to open a lending library on Sundays as well as on weekdays. If that judgment holds good, the scandal of these places being opened on Sundays as well as on weekdays will, I trust, be terminated. But that will not help with regard to the very long hours during which they are open on weekdays, nor will it provide for their having an early closing day.
I submit that there are two good reasons why that state of affairs should be ended. In the first place, one cannot help feeling uneasy with regard to the hours of labour which the employees of these libraries are asked to work. I have no information on that subject, and I have not the means of acquiring it, but unless these libraries are carefully regulated and inspected I fear that there is a great risk of employees being asked to work hours that are altogether excessive. In the second place, these libraries are in competition, and probably very serious competition, with certain businesses which are already established and which, either voluntarily or compulsorily, comply with the various Shops Acts. That is to say, they are in competition with the older established lending libraries, such as the ones your Lordships all know—the various London libraries, Smith's Libraries, Boot's Libraries and similar lending

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libraries such as you find in provincial towns, and which have hitherto, in a very praiseworthy manner, voluntarily observed reasonable hours of opening. They are also in serious competition with newsagents and newsvendors, sellers of magazines and booksellers, into whose trade I believe they are making considerable inroads. It is, of course, perfectly legitimate, and even for the benefit of the public, that this competition should exist, but it is definitely most unfair that such a great advantage should be enjoyed by these newly-established libraries.
I am asking the House to pass a Resolution expressing its desire for legislation on this subject, and such legislation would, I think, be perfectly easily introduced and passed through both Houses. It would only be necessary to add the words, "lending library" in Clause 19 of the Shops Act, 1912, which reads in part:
"The expression 'shop' includes any premises where any retail trade or business is carried on;
"The expression retail trade or (business ' includes the business of a barber or hairdresser, the sale of refreshments or intoxicating liquors, and retail sales by auction,…"
You have only to add the words "the lending of books;" but it would he necessary, I think, to make an exception to assure that the business of Sunday school libraries and church libraries and public libraries, which are, of course, on an altogether different footing and provide a very different class of goods, were excepted from these provisions. I very much hope that the House will see its way to accept this Motion, and I trust that there will be an early opportunity of promoting legislation on the subject. The matter is one which concerns a very considerable number of business men, and which, I fear, may concern a number of employees of the business to which I have alluded. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That this House would welcome legislation designed to bring lending libraries carried on with a view to profit within the scope of the Acts that regulate the hours of opening in the case of shops.—(The Earl of Iddesleigh.)
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I reply to the Motion of the noble Earl with considerable apprehension, for
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it raises the question of the interpretation of the law. The point which he has raised largely rests upon the interpretation given to the word "shops" in the Shops Acts. A shop, as the noble Earl has said, is defined as including "any premises where any retail trade or business is carried on." As to the meaning of the expression "retail trade or business," the Act states that this expression "includes the business of a barber or hairdresser, the sale of refreshments or intoxicating liquor and retail sales by auction'' and the noble Earl's suggestion is simply that the Act should be amended to include lending libraries. But I am sure the noble Earl will appreciate that there is no precise definition of the term "retail trade." The expression is, however, generally taken to mean the sale of goods in small quantities to the public.
The lending libraries to which the noble Earl has referred are one example of the type of establishment which has all the appearance of a shop but in which retail trade as generally understood is not carried on. A number of inquiries have been addressed to the Home Secretary from time to time as to the application of the Shops Acts to this type of establishment, Your Lordships will of course appreciate that the Home Secretary has no authority to interpret an Act of Parliament—such interpretation being, of course, a matter for the Courts of Law—but he has always expressed the opinion that places where articles are let for hire are not shops unless articles are also sold on the premises. I understand that that view is also held by the local authorities, who are responsible for the enforcement of the Shops Acts.
The noble Earl, in moving his Motion, referred to the case, Lee versus Craven, which I understand is a case which was published in The Times during April of this year. That was a case taken under the Sunday Observance Act. The High Court ruled in that case that the appellant, who carried on the business of a lending library, was a tradesman within the meaning of the Sunday Observance Act, 1677. Therefore the carrying on of a lending library on Sunday was prohibited by that Act. There is another case which was decided in 1922, Dennis versus Hutchinson, in which, in summing up, Mr. Justice Avory observed that in construing any word in an Act of Parliament, unless there is a

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precise definition, it is always necessary to look at the object of the Act. In that particular Act, the Shops Act, he pointed out that the first three sections are confined to the employment of persons. From that explanation the noble Earl will see that the cases which have occurred with regard to this matter confuse the issue rather than make it more clear.
The noble Earl will, I am sure, be pleased to know that the Government certainly do not wish to dissent in any way from the terms of the Resolution that he has moved, but I fear that, owing to the heavy commitments in their legislative programme, it is not possible for me to promise that the Government will contemplate yet awhile the necessary legislation to amend the Shops Act. On the other hand, I can assure the noble Earl that any legislative proposals he may wish to put forward will receive the most serious and sympathetic consideration of the Government.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Earl for advising the House to accept the Resolution I have moved. I cannot but feel that in giving that advice to the House he has to some extent committed the Home Office at least to the view that action is desirable. With regard to his suggestion that I myself should initiate legislation
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in the matter, I see a great many serious disadvantages, notably that I should have to do my best to draft the Bill or else employ the services of a draftsman, all of which things could be much better and more satisfactorily done by the Home Secretary. However, do I understand from the noble Earl that, if I did frame legislation, the Bill would be afforded facilities in the House of Commons?
THE EARL OF FEVERS HAM: I am afraid I cannot commit another place on that point.
THE EARL OF IDDESLEIGH: I rather expected to receive that answer. Those noble Lords who have any experience or knowledge of the fate that almost invariably befalls Bills promoted by private Peers in this House will be able to assess the noble Earl's kind offer at its true value. I am satisfied, at any rate, to have been able to ventilate the subject, and I trust that very serious consideration will be given by the Home Office to the possibility of promoting a very short Bill, a one-clause Bill, in the sense I have indicated, because the matter is one which does affect a great many people and is causing a good deal of feeling throughout the country.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at four minutes before four o'clock.