Lords Sitting of 15 November 1934

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

BETTING AND LOTTERIES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the consideration of Commons Amendments read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, I beg to move that the Commons Amendments be now considered.
Moved, That the Commons Amendments be now considered.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
[The references are to Bill No. 150 as printed for the House of Commons.]
Clause 1, page 1, line 11, leave out ("calendar").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, when the Bill was framed it was contemplated that the Act would come into force on the 1st January, 1935, and that the appointed betting days would be fixed in relation to the calendar year. It will be seen from the later Commons Amendments that it is proposed that the licensing system should take effect as from the 1st July; and that the appointed days should be fixed in relation to the period from 1st July to 30th June each year. The present Amendment is accordingly part of the scheme for making the betting year run from July to June. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 2, page 2, line 15, after ("day") insert ("if")
Clause 2, page 2, line 16, leave out ("if")
Clause 2, page 2, line 16, leave out ("calendar")
Clause 2, page 2, line 20, leave out ("if")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these Amendments go together
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and are purely drafting Amendments. The third Amendment, on line 16, is consequential on the Amendment to Clause 1 already agreed to. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 3, page 3, line 11, after the third ("or") insert ("knowingly").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to safeguard a person whose premises unknown to him are used as a place to which persons resort for pari-mutuel betting transactions. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 3, line 16, leave out subsection (4).
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of subsection (4) was to make it clear that Clause 3 of the Bill does not supersede the Betting Act, 1853, in the application of that Act to unlawful pari-mutuel betting. On further consideration, the Government have reached the conclusion that subsection (4) is unnecessary from a drafting point of view and that if it remained in the Bill its existence might be used to support an invalid argument that the Betting Act, 1853, in some way qualified the authority conferred by Clause 10 of the Bill to operate and effect betting transactions with a totalisator established on a dog racecourse in pursuance of Clause 10. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 3, page 3, line 17, at end insert the following clause—
Restriction of betting on dog racecourse.
("— (1) Betting by way of bookmaking or by means of a totalisator shall not take

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place on any day on a track being a dog racecourse, in connection with more than eight dog races, and betting by way of bookmaking or by means of a totalisator on the results of dog races shall not take place on any day on such a track as aforesaid except during one continuous period not exceeding four hours:
Provided that, in relation to any of the four special appointed days fixed in any year by the licensing authority in accordance with this section, the foregoing provisions of this subsection shall have effect as if there were therein substituted for the word 'eight' the word 'sixteen,' and for the words one continuous period not exceeding four hours 'the words' a period or periods not exceeding eight hours in the aggregate.'
(2) If bookmaking is carried on or a totalisator is operated by any person on any track in contravention of this section, that person and, if he is not the occupier of the track, the occupier also shall be guilty of an offence:
Provided that where the occupier of a track is charged with an offence by reason of a contravention of this section on the part of another person it shall be a defence for him to prove that the contravention occurred without his knowledge.
(3) The licensing authority when fixing the appointed days for any year in accordance with this Part of this Act shall also fix four of those days (which four days shall be the same for the whole of their licensing area) as the special appointed days for the purposes of subsection (1) of this section.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a new clause inserted in another place. During the debates which took place there, it was strongly represented that if no limit was placed on the amount of betting which might be allowed on a dog track on an appointed betting day, the restriction of betting facilities intended by the Bill would be in considerable measure nullified by the provision of betting facilities at several sessions in the course of a day. The clause which has been moved in another place covers this particular point. I hardly think that your Lordships would require that I should go more into detail. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquees of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 4, page 3, line 36, at end, insert:
("( ) If a county council elect under the foregoing provisions of this section to delegate their functions under this Part of this
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Act to the standing joint committee, it shall be the duty of that committee to discharge those functions so long as the delegation is in force.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to make it quite clear that where a county council decide to delegate their licensing functions to the standing joint committee for the county, the standing joint committee shall be required to discharge these functions. It meets a point raised by Lord Snell, who suggested that an awkward situation might result if a county council desired to delegate its functions and the standing joint committee showed a disinclination to accept the delegation. This Amendment, I think, covers the point which the noble Lord raised. I beg to move that this House doth agree with the Commons in their Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 4, line 4, at end, insert:
("(3) Any expenses incurred in the execution of this Part of this Act by a standing joint committee shall be defrayed by the council of the county and any expenses so incurred by any other joint committee shall be defrayed by the appointing councils in such shares as may be agreed.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the next subsection was introduced in your Lordships' House and was treated as a Privileged Amendment. It has now been inserted in another place. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 4, line 10, at end, insert:
("( ) A standing joint committee to whom the functions of a county council under this Part of this Act are delegated under this section shall have such powers as are conferred on councils of counties and county boroughs by paragraph (b) of the proviso to subsection (1) of this section, and accordingly references in that paragraph and in subsections (2) and (3) of this section to a council or councils shall be construed as including references to such a standing joint committee as aforesaid.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the Bill stands a county

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council or a county borough council may combine in delegating their licensing functions to a joint committee consisting of members of the combining councils. The Amendment enables a standing joint committee (who may become a licensing authority by delegation from a county council) to combine with a neighbouring county council or county borough council.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 5, page 4, line 16, after ("and") insert ("may").
THE MARQUESS or LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the next Amendment is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 4, line 23, leave out from ("effect,") to end of line 24, and insert ("on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-five").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of the present Amendment is to make it clear on the face of the Rill that the licensing authority must fix its days for hearing applications for the grant of licences, so as to enable licences to be granted and to take effect on the 1st July, 1935, when it is proposed that the betting year should commence.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 4, line 28 leave out ("local authority of the district,") and insert ("council of the county district or metropolitan borough").
Page 4, line 30, leave out ("a town") and insert ("any").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the next two Amendments are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry).
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 4, line 42, at end, insert:
("( ) Every such notice as aforesaid given in respect of any track to the licensing authority shall, until the hearing of the application to which the notice relates, be kept by the licensing authority at their offices, so as to be available, at any time during office hours, for inspection by any member of the public free of charge.')
THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: My Lords, it was represented to the Government that the requirements of subsection (2) of Clause 5 were not sufficient to enable interested persons to obtain information for the purpose of exercising their statutory right of making representations to the licensing authority, The Amendment accordingly proposes that notice of application for a licence given to a licensing authority should be deposited by that authority at its offices and should be available for inspection by the public during office hours free of charge until the application is heard and determined.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 5, line 6, leave out ("local authority of the district,") and insert ("council of the county district or metropolitan borough")
Page 5, line 8, leave out ("adjoining district,") and insert ("district adjoining that county district or metropolitan borough")
Page 5, line 10, after ("any") insert ("school or").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the next three Amendments are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 6, page 6, line 12, leave out from the beginning to ("or") in line 14 and insert ("under this Part of this Act or under the First Schedule to this Act").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to meet the criticism which has been expressed that in its original form the clause would empower the licensing authority to refuse a licence if the applicant has been convicted of some

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trivial offence in connection with the management of a track or even of some offence in connection with the management of the track committed before the passing of the Act. The Amendment proposes that before it can be a bar to the grant of a licence a conviction should be in respect of an offence against Part I or the First Schedule of this Bill (which deals with the conduct of tracks) or an offence against the general law relating to fraud or dishonesty.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS
Clause 7, page 7, line 8, leave out from ("track,") to ("shall,") in line 10, and insert ("made on any such date fixed by the licensing authority under subsection (1) of Section five of this Act as falls before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-five")
Clause 7, page 7, line 12, leave out from beginning to ("delivered,") in line 24, and insert:
("(a) at least two months before the application is made the applicant—
(i) has")
Clause 7, page 7, line 26, after ("police,") insert ("a written notice describing the situation of the track and stating that ho intends to make application on that date claiming the grant of the licence by virtue of this section, and also")
Clause 7, page 7, line 35, at end, insert:
("(ii) has published the said notice and a copy of the said declaration in at least two newspapers circulating in the locality in which the track is situate; and").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the next four Amendments I shall venture to take together. The first Amendment gives effect to the proposal that the system of licensing should come into effect on the 1st July, 1935. The effect of the other three Amendments, briefly, is to simplify the procedure. under Clause 7 by substituting for the proposals in the Bill the simple requirements that an applicant for a licence in respect of an existing track must first of all give notice to the licensing authority and to the Police of his intention to apply for a licence; secondly, show that he is entitled to benefit by the special procedure prescribed for existing tracks; and thirdly, he must advertise his intention to apply for a licence, so as to enable his statements to be checked.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 7, line 40, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) Every such declaration as aforesaid delivered to the licensing authority in connection with any application for a licence shall, until the hearing of the application and, if the application is granted, so long as the licence remains in force, be kept by the licensing authority at their offices so as to be available at any time during office hours for inspection by any member of the public free of charge.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the Bill stands there is no time limit during which the declaration must be kept available for inspection by the public, and the licensing authority would be under an obligation to keep these declarations for all time. This requirement goes further than is necessary or was intended. The present Amendment accordingly limits the period during which the licensing authority must keep a declaration available for public inspection to the period until the hearing of the application for a licence if the application is refused, or until the expiry of the licence if the licence is granted.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 8, line 16, after ("revoked") insert ("or cancelled").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the Bill stands, a licence, for an existing track will last in force until it is revoked and there is no provision for the surrender of a licence by the licensee. The object of this Amendment is to enable the licensee of an existing track if he so desires to surrender his licence, whereupon it will be cancelled and will cease to have effect.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 8, line 20, leave out ("first day of January") and insert ("beginning of July").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 8, line 42, after ("revoked") insert ("or cancelled").
Page 9, line 16, at end, insert:
("( ) The licensing authority shall, upon receiving from the holder of a licence for the time being in force a written request in that behalf accompanied by the licence, cancel the licence, which shall thereupon cease to be in force."
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of these Amendments is to allow tracks to surrender a licence, if the licence is no longer desired; just as a corresponding provision has been made in the case of existing tracks.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 9, line 16, at end insert:
"( ) In respect of any application for a licence, such fee, not exceeding ten pounds, as the licensing authority may from time to time fix for their licensing area, shall he payable by the applicant before the hearing of the application, hut, if the licence is granted, the fee so paid shall he treated; as a payment on account of the first annual payment to be made in respect of the licence under the next following subsection."
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, it has been represented that a licensing authority will be put to a considerable amount of expense in hearing an application for a grant of a licence, whether or not a licence is eventually granted. It appears reasonable that a fee not exceeding £10 should be payable on the application for a grant of a licence, and the Amendment proposes that where a licence is granted the fee paid upon an application for a licence will rank as part payment of the first annual fee.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 9, line 16, at end, insert:
("( ) In respect of every licence, such annual fee not exceeding fifty pounds as the licensing authority may fix annually shall be payable during the currency of the licence by the person who is for the time being the holder thereof, and the first of such payments shall be made on the day on which the licence takes effect, and subsequent payments shall be made at intervals of twelve months thereafter.
( ) In respect of any transfer of a licence, such fee, not exceeding ten pounds, as the licensing authority may from time to time fix for their area shall be payable by the person to whom the licence is transferred.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these two Amendments were in the Bill as introduced in your Lordships' House, but technically they were outside the Bill, being Privileged. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 9, line 28, at end insert:
"( ) Every fee which by virtue of this section is payable by any person shall he recoverable from that person by the licensing authority as a debt due from him to them."
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment provides that the fees required to be paid by previous subsections of the clause shall be recoverable by the licensing authority—that is, the authority exercising the licensing functions at the time when the fee becomes payable. These fees will be recoverable like a debt and will thus be in the same position as the fees payable in respect of the remuneration of the accountant and mechanician. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 9, line 28, at end, insert:
"( ) A standing joint committee who receive any sum in respect of fees paid under this section shall pay, or account for, that sum to the county council represented on the committee."
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the county council defray the expenses of the standing joint committee, obviously the committee should pay or account to the county council for any fees received by the committee in its capacity as licensing authority. The present Amendment which effects this purpose is really formal in character, as in fact the standing joint committee would hand over any fees to the county council. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 9, page 9, line 29, leave out from the beginning to ("as,") in line 31, and insert ("Not later than the end of May in each year, every licensing authority shall, subject to the provisions of this section, fix one hundred and four days in the year which begins on the first day of July next following.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the Bill stands Clause 9 requires a licensing authority "a reasonable time before the beginning of each calendar year" to fix the 104 appointed betting days for that calendar year. The Amendment proposes the 104 betting days should be fixed for the period from the 1st July to the following 30th June and that the licensing authority should fix the days before the end of May for the following betting year. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 9, line 37, leave out ("calendar").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a consequential Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 10, line 7, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) The following provisions shall have effect in relation to the fixing of appointed days for any year—
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(a) at least one month before fixing appointed days for the year, the licensing authority shall publish in at least two newspapers circulating in their licensing area a notice of their intention so to do;

(b) if, within the period of one month from the date of the publication of the said notice, the licensing authority receive a written notice signed—

(i) in the case of the fixing of appointed days for the year beginning on the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, by all the persons who have given to the licensing authority notice in writing of their intention to apply for licences in respects of tracks in the licensing area; or

(ii) in any other case by all the holders of licences in force in respect of tracks in the licensing area;

stating that the signatories unanimously desire that the appointed days in that year should be the days specified in the notice given under this paragraph, then, if those days are days which might lawfully be fixed under the foregoing provisions of this section as the appointed days for the year, the licensing authority shall fix as those appointed days the days so specified;

(c) unless the licensing authority fix the appointed days for the year in accordance with paragraph (b) of this subsection the authority shall, before fixing those days, consider any representations which may, during the period of one month from the date of the publication of the notice required by paragraph (a) of this subsection, have been made to the licensing authority in writing by the chief officer of police, or by any person who is the holder of a licence in force in respect of a track in the licensing area, or who has given to the licensing authority notice in writing of his intention to apply for a licence in respect of such a track;

(d) the licensing authority shall, on being requested by any person so to do, inform that person as to the latest time by which a notice under paragraph (b) or a representation under paragraph (c) of this subsection must be received by the licensing authority if it is to be effective.")

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to provide that where the occupiers of licensed tracks in a licensing area reach agreement among themselves about the days on which betting facilities should be provided in the area, the licensing authority shall fix these days as the appointed days. The Royal Commission recommended that the licensing authority should fix two week-days as the betting days, so that the betting days would have been uniformly distributed throughout the year. The Government felt that the Commission's proposal was unneces-

479
sarily restrictive and that greater elasticity should be allowed. The Bill as introduced accordingly proposed that the licensing authority should have complete discretion in the distribution of the 104 betting days throughout the year. It was intended that the licensing authority in fixing the days should have regard to the particular circumstances of the locality and the circumstances of the sports concerned; and an Amendment was introduced in your Lordships' House to make it clear that the occupiers of tracks should have a right to be heard before the licensing authority fixed the days.
Unfortunately there is an impression in certain quarters that licensing authorities might use their discretion in the fixing of days to appoint days which were unsuitable for the sports concerned. It was not the Government's intention that, Parliament having limited the betting clays to 104 a year, local authorities should then impose further restrictions by the choice of unsuitable days, and the Government believe that the fears of unfair treatment are unfounded and that local authorities will exercise their functions under the Bill in a judicial spirit. But in order to remove any ground for the suspicion that tracks may be unfairly penalised, the Government decided to table the present Amendment. The Amendment in no sense violates the general principle of limitation underlying the Bill. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons in this Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 15, page 13, line 40, leave out from beginning, to ("or,") in line 42, and insert ("under this Part of this Act or under the First Schedule to this Act").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment brings the wording of Clause 15 into line with the wording of Clause 6, as altered by an Amendment at Clause 6, page 6, line 12. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
After Clause 17, page 15, line 28, at end, insert the following Clause:
Powers of entry on tracks.
(". Any person authorised in writing in that behalf by the licensing authority, on producing his authority on demand, and any constable, may at all reasonable times enter upon any track for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Part of this Act are being complied with, and every person who obstructs any constable or other person in the exercise of his powers under this section shall be guilty of an offence.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the Bill as at present drafted contains no provision whereby the Police or representatives of the licensing authority can enter on a track for the purpose of observing whether the provisions of the Bill are being complied with. The Amendment remedies this omission by empowering any person authorised in writing by the licensing authority or any constable to enter on a track for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of the Bill are being complied with.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 18, page 16, line 24, leave out from ("council,") to ("having,") in line 25, and insert ("or committee").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 17, line 8, at end, insert"
("year" means a period of twelve consecutive months beginning on the first day of July").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment is consequential on earlier Amendments. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 20, page 17, line 35, after ("of,") insert ("publication or").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the Amendment is to deal with a casus omissus. If publication and distribution are to be offences it is only logical that possession for the purpose of publication should he an offence as well as possession for the purpose of distribution. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDAIENTS.
Page 17, line 37, leave out from the beginning to ("any") in line 38.
Page 17, line 41, leave out from ("any,") to ("calculated,") in line 42, and insert ("such matter descriptive of the drawing or intended drawing of the lottery, or otherwise relating to the lottery, as is").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I would ask you to take these two Amendments together. The effect of the Amendments is that it will be an offence to print, firstly, any advertisement of a lottery; secondly, any list of prize winners; and thirdly, "any such matter descriptive of the drawing or intended drawing of the lottery or otherwise relating to the lottery as is calculated to act as an inducement to persons to participate in that lottery or other lotteries." It will he observed that the Amendments propose that as regards matter descriptive of the drawing or intended drawing of a lottery, only such matter as is calculated to act as an inducement to persons to participate in a lottery is punishable, whereas in the Bill, as it stands, all matter descriptive of the drawing or intended drawing is struck at. There is the further safeguard that, even in respect of such matter, prosecutions can only be instituted by the Director of Public Prosecutions. I beg to move that we agree with the Commons Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
EARL HOWE: My Lords, I do not know if I may be allowed to ask the noble Marquess a question relating to this. Presumably this clause is directed against the Free State lottery, and if that is so
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I should like to ask the noble Marquess why it is really necessary to have such a clause. I cannot see what it is going to do. First of all, it will not protect people in this country in any way because of the medium of the wireless. I imagine that all that it is necessary for the Free State authorities to do would be to get on to the wireless and to send on the information over here with regard to the lottery, just as if this clause did not operate. I do not see what control is possible in the circumstances, and I would like to ask the noble Marquess whether he could 'say a word on that.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I do not feel at all unsympathetic to the point that the noble Earl has raised, but, as he knows, the main object of this Bill is to penalise those persons who exploit others in this connection, and we have to take all the precautions we think proper and necessary in order to a, all that lies in our power to penalise such people. I agree that there are facilities, such as the noble Earl has indicated, which can be utilised by the Irish lottery promoters, and I have no doubt they will have thought of them. All I can say is that in the Bill we have done everything we can to penalise and prevent those people who are exploiting others to their own profit.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 18, line 7, after ("money,") insert ("or valuable thing").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, Clause 20 makes it an offence to send out of Great Britain any money received in respect of the sale or distribution of any ticket or chance in a lottery, and money is defined in Clause 26 as including a cheque, banknote, postal order or money order. This is not an exhaustive description of the means which might be adopted for sending money out of this country in respect of lotteries promoted abroad, and the object of the Amendment is to add "or valuable thing." I would point out to your Lordships that postage stamps might be used as a means of transmitting money abroad.
I should like to take this opportunity, if I may, of correcting statements which I have seen in the Press as to the effect of what the Home Secretary said in another place when dealing with the ques-

483
tion of new criminal offences. The Home Secretary stated that it would not be an offence under the Bill, any more than it is under the existing law, for a person to purchase a ticket in the Irish sweepstakes. That is the position, and no one who purchases a ticket for his personal use and does not sell or distribute tickets will himself be exposed to criminal penalties. This appears to have been interpreted by the Irish Hospitals Trust as giving them full freedom to flood this country with tickets in their sweepstakes sent through the post. But it must not be overlooked that in passing this Bill Parliament intended to put restrictions on the flow of money from this country to the Irish sweepstakes, and, without going into details of the methods which the Government will adopt, I think I ought to inform the House that the Government will take such steps as they consider necessary to give effect to the intention of Parliament to check the export of money from this country to lotteries promoted outside this country. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.s)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 18, line 11, after ("or") insert ("causes or knowingly").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to bring Clause 20 into line with Clause 3. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 18, line 32, leave out subsection (4).
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the effect of subsection (4) of Clause 20 is that if a person is charged with the offence of bringing or inviting another person to send any lottery ticket or lottery advertisement into this country for the purpose of sale or distribution, the onus of proving that the tickets were not brought in for sale or distribution will lie on the defendant. In view of the criticisms which have been expressed, that in certain cases it would be unfair to place part of the onus of proof
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on the defendant, the Government on consideration have decided not to press for this subsection and they accordingly propose that it should be deleted. I know that the Government have been accused of adopting an intransigent attitude on this Bill, but I think that noble Lords will agree that the present Amendment is a substantial concession. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 21, page 19, line 12, leave out from ("deducting,") to ("shall,") in line 15 and insert:

"(i) the expenses of the entertainment, excluding expenses incurred in connection with the lottery; and

(ii) the expenses incurred in printing tickets in the lottery; and

(iii) such sum (if any) not exceeding ten pounds as the promoters of the lottery think fit to appropriate on account of any expense incurred by them in purchasing prizes in the lottery."

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the present Amendment allows a sum not exceeding £10 to be deducted from the proceeds of the entertainment for the purpose of recouping the promoters of a lottery for any cost incurred in the provision of prizes. During the debates which took place in another place attention was drawn to the fact that certain organisations have no wealthy friends. to present prizes and that in such cases prizes—for example, cakes and parcels of grocery—have to be paid for by the organisers, and it was urged that some concession should be made on this point. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 22, page 20, line 18, leave out from ("either,") to end of line 20, and insert ("to the provision of prizes as aforesaid or to purposes which are purposes of the society, or, as to part, to the provision of prizes as aforesaid and, as to the remainder, to such purposes as aforesaid.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, under Clause 22 as it stands, some of the proceeds of a private lottery must be devoted to the provision of

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prizes. This does not take into account the cases where the prizes are presented by some benevolent donor, and the Amendment seeks to remedy this omission. By the Amendment, where prizes are presented gratis, the proceeds of the lottery can be devoted entirely to purposes of the society for the members of which the lottery is promoted. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 21, line 3, after ("money") insert ("or valuable thing.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, paragraph (e) of subsection (2) of Clause 22 prohibits the return by the promoter of a private lottery of any money which he has received in respect of the issue or allocation of chances in the lottery. The insertion of the words "or valuable thing" is designed to prevent evasion of this provision by the use of valuable things other than money as defined in Clause 26. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 23, page 21, line 26, at end insert:
("( ) In the case of an Art Union constituted under a deed or other instrument, not being a charter, the power of annulment referred to in the foregoing subsection may be exercised also by the President of the Board of Trade or, in his absence, by a Secretary of State, if, in the opinion of the President or Secretary of State, as the case may be, it is expedient, having regard to the circumstances, that immediate action be taken in the matter.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to enable the Board of Trade to take immediate action, should the need arise, to revoke any instrument constituting an Art Union and to put a, stop to its activities. The effect of the clause as it is drawn at present is to provide that His Majesty may, on a recommendation from the Board of Trade, revoke the instrument constituting the Art Union on grounds other than actual perversion—
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that is, for persistent failure to comply with the rules of the Art Union as to the contents of the advertisement of a drawing, and SO on. The method of obtaining the revocation of any, instrument, by obtaining the consent of His Majesty after certification or recommendation by the Board of Trade is not necessarily, in practice, the most expeditious, and in view of the circumstances surrounding the case of a recent Art Union, it is desirable to replace it by some quicker procedure which can be available in case of necessity. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 25, page 22, line 72, leave out from ("that,") to ("may,") in line 14, and insert ("any premises are being used for the purpose of the commission of an offence under this Part of this Act in connection with a lottery or proposed lottery.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, fears have been expressed that theoretically under the clause as it stands the possessor of a single ticket might be liable to have his house searched for evidence of the sale of tickets by some lottery agent. The Government have felt it desirable to remove any legitimate ground for anxiety, however academic the fear may be. The Amendment accordingly proposes that a search warrant can only be issued in respect of the use of premises for the purpose of the commission of an offence in connection with a lottery. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 15, leave out ("named in the warrant.")
THE MARQUESS OR LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as Clause 25 stands a search warrant can only be executed by the "constable named in the warrant." In practice this would give rise to difficulties. The officer named in the warrant may not be available and it is quite unnecessary to insert in a warrant a large number of names for the purpose of ensuring that one or more of the

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officers so named will be available to execute the search. The individual whose premises are to he searched loses nothing by the Amendment, since the requirement that the officer must be named in the warrant offers him no real safeguard. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 17, after the second ("the") insert ("said").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, Clause 25 provides that a constable with a search warrant may search "the premises named in the warrant." The Amendment proposes to delete these words and to substitute "the said premises." I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 18, leave out ("named in the warrant").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I have already explained this point on an earlier Amendment. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 22, line 20, leave out ("or money") and insert ("money or valuable thing").
THE MARQUESS or LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 26, page 23, line 2, leave out ("or sent")
Clause 26, page 23, line 3, leave out ("or sent, whether by post or otherwise")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 28, page 23, line 16, leave out ("under")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this also is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House cloth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 24, line 13, leave out ("in the hands of the police,") and insert ("produced to the court")
Page 24, line 17, leave out ("in the hands of the police,") and insert ("produced to the court")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these are drafting Amendments.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Clause 29, page 24, line 21, leave out ("apply to Scotland,") and insert ("in its application to Scotland have effect")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 24, line 23, after ("reference,") insert ("in Section four of this Act")
Page 24, line 33, leave out ("this Act,") and insert ("the said Section four")
THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these Amendments are both drafting.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 25, line 2, at end, insert:
("(3) Subsection (2) of Section five shall have effect as if for the councils and authori-

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ties (other than the licensing authority) therein mentioned the following councils and authorities were substituted, that is to say:—

(a) the council of the county or burgh within which the track or any part thereof is situate; and

(b) the responsible authority under a planning scheme in force in any area which includes the track or any part thereof;

where such council or responsible authority is not the licensing authority.")
THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY: My Lords, Clause 5, subsection (2) of the Bill, as amended, provides that at least two months before the date on which an application is made the applicant for a licence shall give notice of his intention together with certain other particulars
" to the licensing authority, to the council of the county district or metropolitan borough in which the track or any part thereof is situate, to the responsible authority under a town planning scheme in force in an area which includes the track or any part thereof and to the chief officer of Police."
The present Amendment adapts this provision to Scotland by substituting the burgh and county councils for the English district and metropolitan borough councils. It also makes it unnecessary to give notice to the local or town planning authority in cases where that authority is also the licensing authority, and accordingly receives notice as such. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 25, line 25, after ("any") insert ("school or").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment follows a similar Amendment of Clause 5, subsection (3), which applies to England and Wales. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 26, line 9, leave out subsection (8).
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, an Amendment has been made to paragraph 9 of the Third Schedule so that that paragraph sets out the pro-
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fessional bodies whose members are to be qualified for appointment as auditors under the Schedule. If this Amendment is agreed to it is unnecessary to make any substitution in the Scottish application clause as paragraph 9 of the Schedule will apply equally to England and Scotland. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Clause 31, page 26, line 31, leave out from ("nine,") t o ("but,") in line 34, and insert ("Sections seventeen and, eighteen and Sections twenty-seven to twenty-nine of this Act shall come into operation forthwith, and Part II of this Act and (except in so far as it effects the repeal of any provision of the Racecourse Betting Act, 1928), Section thirty of this Act shall come into operation on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-five.")
Clause 31, page 26 line 35, leave out ("January,") and insert ("July").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as Clause 31 stands the Act apart from certain machinery provisions, would come into operation on January 1, 1935. It was assumed when this Bill was drafted that it would become law before the Summer Recess. It is now impossible to bring Part I (apart from the machinery provisions) into force before July 1 next, and the scheme for licensing tracks and the legalisation of the totalisator will not come into force until July 1, 1935. As regards Part II, which deals with lotteries and newspaper competitions, it is proposed that this part shall be brought into operation on January 1, 1935. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
First Schedule, page 27, line 11, after ("operator,") insert ("shall take all such steps as are necessary to secure that, so long as the totalisator is in use, it is in proper working order and is properly operated.
"3. The operator").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, there is at present a gap in the Bill since there is no provision requiring the operator, so long as the totalisator is in use, to maintain it in proper

491
working order and to operate it properly. The present Amendment imposes this requirement which, I think your Lordships will agree, is clearly necessary.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 27, line 11, after ("shall,") insert ("before receiving any bets in connection with any race, post in a conspicuous position on the track a notice showing the minimum stake (hereinafter referred to as the 'betting unit') which will be accepted at the totalisator from persons betting on that race, and shall")
Page 27, line 16, leave out ("five") and insert ("six")
Page 27, line 19, leave out from beginning, to ("and") in line 21, and insert:
"(a) where the number of pence in the amount payable in respect of each betting unit staked by a person winning a bet is not exactly divisible by three, then—

(i) if the remainder does not exceed three halfpence, it may be retained by the operator; but

(ii) if the remainder exceeds three halfpence, the amount payable in respect of each betting unit staked by the said person shall be deemed to be increased to the next greater number of pence which is so divisible.")

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, these three Amendments go together. They are concerned with the limitation of the profits which may be derived from the operation of a totalisator. I do not know whether your Lordships are anxious that I should go into all the details. I have an idea that your Lordships are familiar with them and, unless your Lordships so desire, I will move without further comment.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page, 27, line 16, leave out from ("may") to the end of line 17 and insert ("have specified in the said notices").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the object of this Amendment is to require that before receiving bets through the totalisator in respect of any race the operator of the totalisator shall post up on the track the percentage which he proposes to deduct from the pools. Without some such provision it
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might be possible for a dishonest operator so to manipulate the percentage deduction in respect of any race as to secure that the dividend in respect of the betting unit always yielded him a revenue from the breakages.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 27, line 26, leave out ("within a specified time,") and insert ("before such time, not being earlier than forty-eight hours after the conclusion of the race or, as the case may be, of the last of the races in connection with which the bet was made, as may have been specified in the notice aforesaid.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment provides that a person winning bets on the totalisator at a dog track shall be given at least 48 hours in which to claim his winnings. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENTS.
Page 27, line 27, leave out ("operator,") and insert ("licensing authority")
Page 27, line 30, leave out ("operator,") and insert ("licensing authority").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, as the Bill stands at the present moment the accountant and the mechanician would be appointed by the operator. The functions of the accountant and of the mechanician are to supervise the operation of the totalisator, and it does seem clearly necessary to amend the Bill so as to provide that these officials should be appointed by the licensing authority on whose behalf they will be acting. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 27, line 34, at end, insert:
("5. The accountant and the mechanician appointed by the licensing authority under the last foregoing paragraph shall hold office on such terms (including terms as to remuneration) as may, subject as hereinafter provided, be determined by the licensing

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authority after consultation with the holder of any licence for the time being in force in respect of the track in connection with which the appointment is made, and the remuneration of the accountant and the mechanician shall be payable by the licensing authority; but so much of the remuneration paid to the accountant and to the mechanician, in respect of the performance of their functions under this Schedule in relation to the totalisator as is attributable to any period during which any person held a licence in force in respect of the track on which the totalisator is set up shall be recoverable by the licensing authority as a debt duo to them from that person.
Provided that the terms on which any accountant is appointed as aforesaid shall include a term that on every appointed day either he or a servant of his authorised in that behalf by him in writing must be in attendance at the totalisator during such period or periods as may before that day have been notified to him in writing by the operator.
6. The totalisator shall not be operated at any time when neither the accountant nor a servant of the accountant authorised in that behalf by him in writing is present:")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, by the Amendments at line 27 and line 30 of paragraph (3) of the First Schedule, the appointment of the accountant and of the mechanician, who is his technical adviser, is to be in the hands of the licensing authority instead of the operator. The present Amendment provides for the payment of the salaries of the accountant and the mechanician. The effect is that in the first instance the remuneration of these two officers will be paid by the licensing authority, but the cost of such remuneration ought not to fall on the rates but should come from the profits of the totalisator. This Amendment accordingly provides that the sums paid by the licensing authority to the accountant and the mechanician shall be recoverable from the holder of the licence. The Amendment further provides that before fixing the salaries and the terms of office of the accountant and the mechanician, the licensing authority shall consult with the holder of the licence. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 27, line 42, at end insert ("for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Schedule are being complied with").
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this Amendment simply defines more closely the grounds on which the accountant can require the operator of a totalisator to produce accounts, books and other documents. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 28, line 17, leave out from ("require") to the end of line 20 and insert ("for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Schedule have been complied with.")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, the effect of this Amendment is to require the operator to furnish to the accountant a complete statement of accounts giving all such information as he may require "for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Schedule have been complied with." Those last words, the words which appear in the Commons Amendment, are new, and while in one sense they are limiting, they are nevertheless wide enough to empower the accountant to require all relevant information. It is therefore not necessary to retain the words which at present appear at the end of paragraph 5 giving examples of the information which may be required by the accountant. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 28, line 24, after ("necessary") insert ("for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this Schedule are being complied with")
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment designed to bring the wording of paragraph 6 of the Schedule into line with the wording of paragraph 5. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

COMMONS AMENDMENT.
Page 29, line 15, leave out from ("Schedule.") to end of the Schedule, and

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insert ("the expression qualified accountant" means a person being a member of one or more of the following bodies, that is to say:—

"The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales;

The Society of Incorporated Accountants and Auditors;

The Society of Accountants in Edinburgh;

The Institute of Accountants and Actuaries in Glasgow;

The Society of Accountants in Aberdeen;

The London Association of Certified Accountants, Limited;

The Corporation of Accountants, Limited.")

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment. As a matter of drafting it is neater to set out the names of societies in the Schedule rather than to have the present provision which involves reference to other Statutes for the names of the societies. I beg to move.
Moved, That this House doth agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
POOR LAW BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

THE SAAR PLEBISCITE.
LORD MARLEY LORD MARLEY rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they have been in communication with the French Government with regard to the recent statement of the late M. Barthou, French Foreign Minister, concerning the approaching plebiscite in the Saar Territory; whether any representations have been made to the League of Nations regarding the desirability of a definition by the League of the "status quo," so as to include the possibility of a further plebiscite in the future; and if not, whether the matter has been considered by the Government with a view to instructions being given to the British representative at the approaching Session of the Council of the League of Nations,
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to press for the immediate publication of such a definition; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I make no apology for bringing forward this very important question, because it is fraught with the gravest possible dangers to the peace of the world. I do apologise for bringing it forward at this late period of the Session. I did so only because the Council of the League of Nations will be sitting on the twenty-first of this month; that is to say, next week before the new Session of Parliament commences. Therefore I was unable to put it off as I had hoped. The question is a very delicate and very difficult one, and I think I should say that I am speaking from a personal point of view, although the line I shall take will, as a rule, have the support of the Party to which I belong. May I begin by reminding your Lordships of the immensely grave responsibility of the League of Nations in this matter of the Saar territory? The League of Nations has the power of appointing and removing all members of the Saar Governing Commission, and the Saar Governing Commission have all the powers of government in the Saar, and therefore the Council of the League of Nations is ultimately responsible for the work and activities of the Saar Governing Commission.
The Saar Governing Commission have immense responsibilities, because under Article 30 of the Annex to the Covenant, which is, I may say, an inherent part of the Covenant and accepted by Germany and France, they are responsible for the protection of persons and property in the Saar, and are also responsible for the creation of administrative and representative bodies, as they may deem necessary, in the Saar. The League has this heavy responsibility, and when we remember the partial failure of the League to deal adequately with the Manchurian difficulty some years ago, and the blow to the prestige of the League of Nations which resulted from that failure, I think it becomes extremely important that there should be no failure on this occasion. In the case of the Manchurian difficulty there was the excuse of the very great distance to Manchuria, and the great difficulty of operations by the League at such a distance, but there is no such excuse in

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the case of the Saar, which has been continuously under League control ever since the separation of that territory fifteen years ago.
Therefore the League has had every opportunity of considering every aspect of this important question, and it is of vital importance, because a wrong move may precipitate actions which, we cannot deny, may even bring us to the verge of another world war. The vital importance of any such danger needs no underlining by me. At the same time the League must consider its responsibility, realised, accepted and foreseen fifteen years ago, to a very important minority of inhabitants in the Saar, and under Article 30 the Governing Commission, and therefore the League, are responsible for 'the protection of persons and property in the Saar basin. They have a further responsibility under Article 29, to secure 'that persons shall be able to deal with their property and receive a fair price.
The position as it stands is that certain persons, certain minorities in the Saar, are suffering not only grave economic difficulties, and not only grave economic injustices, by boycott and so on, but are suffering from physical attacks, attacks on religion, and even from more serious dangers. I do not need to remind your Lordships that, of course, when the Saar was constituted a separate territory under the Treaty of Versailles it was agreed that in fifteen years time the inhabitants of the Saar should have the right to vote, by plebiscite, on three main questions: whether they should go to Germany, whether they should go to France, or whether they should remain under the status quo, and the League had the responsibility of preparing for this plebiscite, and ensuring that the people should have a free, just and clear opportunity for voting.
The Saar basin is clearly almost entirely German, and the vast mass of the inhabitants want to be reunited to their Fatherland, and up to a couple of years ago, there is no question, a vote; had it then been taken, would have resulted in 95 per cent. of the inhabitants voting for an immediate return to Germany. The inhabitants, who number about 600,000 or 700,000, still love their country, and still want to go back to their coun-
498
try, but there has been a change of Government in Germany, and some of these inhabitants fear that if there were a return to Germany at the present moment there might be inflicted upon them a certain repression of religion such as has been applied to their co-religionists in Germany. Certain of them, belonging to political Parties opposed to that political Party which is in power in Germany, fear that they might suffer physical disabilities, imprisonment, concentration camps, or even death, were they immediately to return to Germany.
Again there are a certain number of Jews living in the Saar, and they fear that the policy of repression of Jews might be applied to them in the event of an immediate return to Germany. There is one other section of the population now living in the Saar which has grave reason to fear an immediate return to Germany, and that is composed of the many thousands of refugee emigrants who have fled from Germany to avoid persecution, who are now living in the Saar, but whose position would be clearly quite intolerable were there an immediate return of the Saar to Germany. The position of these refugee emigrants would make extremely difficult the task of the High Commissioner appointed by the League of Nations to deal with refugees, Jewish and non-Jewish, coming from Germany. The High Commissioner, Mr. James G. McDonald, has his headquarters in London, and at the last meeting of the Governing Body it was pointed out that he was dealing with something like 60,000 to 70,000 refugees, the large majority of whom were unable to obtain a living in the countries of their temporary adoption, and this number would be enormously increased were the refugees now in the Saar forced to flee from that country into France or adjoining countries.
The fear even now existing in the Saar is no chimera. I happen to have come into personal contact with a number of men and women, some of whom I visited in hospitals, some of whom were still bandaged from wounds they had received in attacks by persons politically opposed to them. In all cases this physical terror which is being applied in preparation for the plebiscite is found to be extraordinarily difficult to deal with by the Saar Governing Commission. It is reinforced by a moral terror applied to

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the Catholic population. Three-quarters of the inhabitants are Catholics, and their organisation for the protection of the religion which is dear to them is being bitterly attacked and rendered very difficult under the conditions of the moral terror which is being applied to them. The moral terror also takes the form of warning people that the Nazi organisation in the Saar, the Deutsche Front, will know how they have voted and will deal with them if they vote for the status quo. The term used is "Wait till 1935," and the new calendars issued say, "Only seventy-four more days," or whatever the number may be; and this is interpreted as a threat to prevent a free vote by the inhabitants of the Saar.
The Chairman of the Governing Commission, Mr. Knox, an Englishman, in his last Report to the League of Nations—a Report of very, very grave significance—indicated his discovery of the existence of a private Nazi police force, of widespread persecution, boycott applied to families and the shops of persons known to have political opinions other than those of the Nazi group, and espionage, especially among the Catholics; and he brought out the fact that even his own butler had reported to the Nazi organisation the private conversations which took place at his own dinner table in the house occupied by himself as Chairman of the Governing Commission. One other serious fact he reported, and that was the organisation of plans to kidnap refugees who, having fled from Germany and taken refuge in the Saar, were now threatened with the possibility of being seized illegally and taken back again. A vote cannot be free in these circumstances, and the League of Nations has this heavy responsibility, and assuredly it is necessary that our country, which from time immemorial has had thought for and tried to aid minorities, should in the Saar reinforce the authority of the League for the protection of these poor people.
The preparations for the plebiscite, which takes place on January 13, 1935, have, I think, been left very late. But I am convinced that the voting will, in fact, be absolutely secret. I have interviewed and discussed with great care the plans of the Commission appointed by the League of Nations to prepare the plebiscite. The presiding officers will be
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foreigners, who can be relied upon, I fully believe; and I hope very much that it may be decided by the League—and I also hope very much that the Government will instruct our representative on the Council to press for this—that the votes, when they have been put into the boxes in the various polling districts in the Saar, may be taken unopened to Geneva to be counted, because that would give considerable confidence to the voters that nobody in the Saar could know how they have voted. That is a technical point, and one in regard to which there is no difficulty of fulfilment. It would have the effect of giving very real confidence to the voters that their votes are secret.
I said that the voting had to be for return to Germany, for being joined to France, or for the status quo. As regards the vote for France, we can put that aside. An infinitesimal minority only can possibly vote for such a decision, and we can leave it entirely on one side. Therefore it amounts to this, that the voters have to vote either for return to Germany or for the status quo, and here the voter is in a great difficulty, because he does not know what is the meaning of the status quo. It has never been defined by the League of Nations. The late French Foreign Minister, M. Barthou, whose death is so profoundly regretted by members of your Lordships' House who knew him and appreciated the work he did, and who in his death did so much to prevent the outbreak of serious ill feeling between two European countries—M. Barthou in a Memorandum on behalf of his Government indicated the need for a definition of the status quo, and I hope very much that our Government were associated with him in that Memorandum and that request, because of our desire to help the voters in their task in the Saar. The League has, I believe, a clear duty to define the status quo and that duty is, I submit, inherent in Section 35 of the Annex to the Treaty of Versailles which is, according to Article 50 of the Treaty, "an integral part of the present Treaty" and Germany declares her adherence to it.
Section 35 says this:
" The League of Nations shall decide on the sovereignty under which the territory is to be placed, taking into account the wishes of the inhabitants as expressed by the voting: "

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That means to say, as I interpret it, that the League of Nations must decide what will be the régime which will be established should a vote for the status quo be numerically large enough to have an effect on the League of Nations in accordance with that sentence. It goes on:
" if, for the whole or part of the territory,—
and that gives the League power to divide the Saar territory—
" the League of Nations decides in favour of the maintenance of the régime established by the present Treaty and this Annex,—
And may I remind your Lordships that that means the régime laid down in accordance with the powers given to it by the Governing Commission, a régime which has varied in the past, which has varied from time to time to suit different conditions, and which will of necessity vary in the future should the status quo be continued—then:
" It will be the duty of the League of Nations to take appropriate steps to adapt the régime definitively adopted to the permanent welfare of the territory and doe general interest."
That means they have a duty to vary the régime according to the interests of the inhabitants.
But what is the good of leaving that until after a vote has taken place? Surely, inherent in this paragraph is the duty of the League to give a lead as to what they mean by the status quo before an actual vote takes place, so that people may know what they are voting for? That seems to me to be elementary, and I hope very much our Government feels that that is a necessary simplification for the voters before they have to make their momentous decision. If this is a duty, then a decision that the status quo does not preclude another vote at a subsequent date will influence those who fear an immediate return to Germany but who may succeed in the wish that is so dear to their hearts and go back to their own country when conditions are such that they need not fear persecution.
A mere suggestion by the League, even a passing reference, even a speech of someone in authority, would be sufficient to indicate that there could be another vote in ten or fifteen years—whatever the period may be—or even if in the régime defined by the League of Nations it were made clear that the present autocratic rule of the Governing Commission would
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be succeeded by democratic rule, in which the inhabitants of the Saar could themselves vote for another plebiscite when they were ready—that would be sufficient to reassure many who are afraid, particularly among the Catholics and those of political Parties opposed to the Nazis. It would give them a chance for voting for the status quo without appearing to be voting against their own country. That seems to be elementary justice and, if carefully carried out, it would not he interpreted by Germany as an affront, because the League could prove it was only carrying out its clear and bounden duty.
There are statements being made of the danger of armed intervention in the form of a pu sch by Germany should there be a fear of the plebiscite going against Germany. The League of Nations has a responsibility for the safety not only of the inhabitants but of the Governing Commission, and in particular we are concerned with the safety of the Chairman, Mr. Knox, as an Englishman. Naturally I do not know what danger there is of a putsch, but I am convinced that should such an occurrence happen, the Governing Commission having the right and the duty to call in aimed forces from the other side of the frontier, from France, a very grave situation would arise under which there is a threat to world peace, for we must not forget that we have commitments under Locarno which might involve us in any such dispute.
It has been suggested that, instead of recruiting foreign police as authorised by the League of Nations to keep order within the Saar, there is something to be said for drafting to the Saar trained and disciplined units to be used as police. It is very hard to get discipline from a body of foreign police not speaking the language and composed of Dutchmen, Englishmen, Luxembourgers, Italians—a mixed lot—but it is possible to consider the advisability of drafting, say, a couple of thousand trained disciplined troops—two British battalions, for example—to be used purely as police, which might have the effect of warning any who contemplate armed intervention of the serious attitude of this country. I am only throwing that out as a suggestion which has been made, and it is possible and worth considering that some such suggestion might actually have the effect of preventing an outbreak of war.
The Government have given no clear lead whatever. We had a very brief intervention in the House of Commons by Sir John Simon on November 5, and it would seem from that reply that he really had no realisation of the immense responsibilities of this country in this matter and of the immense dangers which we are facing. The Prime Minister, with his customary lucidity, dealt with the matter on November 12, last Monday, but the whole policy seems to be one of hushing up the difficulty and dangers in the Saar, of skating over these dangers as though they did not exist. The whole policy seems to be to say as little as possible and to do as little as possible, and never to give a clear lead as to the line this country must take in support of the League of Nations in carrying through its responsibilities.
We have now in this country a considerable number of agents of the Nazis who are attempting to influence public opinion in one direction in this country. I make no objection to that. The Government have a perfect right to allow these visitors to our shores, but if they allow the protagonists of one side in this disagreement to come in, why not allow those who support the other side to come in? I have received a complaint from two or three young people representing Catholic and Socialist organisations in the Saar that they landed at Dover and were turned back, and sent out of this country, because, in the first place, it was said they had not enough money under the regulations; and when the money was provided by Catholic and other organisations in this country they were then turned back without reason given. Two have gone back to the Saar, and one is still waiting at Calais in the hope that there may be a change on the part of the Government. I do not expect the noble Earl who will reply to deal with that aspect of this question, although I did give him notice that I would raise it.
I submit that in the interests of justice, in the interests of our people and in the interest of the protection of minorities we should allow both sides of these problems to be heard. We have always been concerned with the minorities in all those countries which have signed the Minority Treaty
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under the League of Nations—the minorities in Poland, minorities in Hungary and minorities in other countries—and we have a still greater responsibility with regard to the minority in the Saar, coming as they do under the League of Nations to which we give support. I submit that the Questions I have put down have a very real bearing in connection with the carrying through of that responsibility. I beg to move.
LORD DAVIES: My Lords, whatever we may think of the point raised by the noble Lord who has just spoken, there cannot be any doubt about the great seriousness of the situation as it exists to-day. I think the noble Lord was quite right when he suggested that His Majesty's Government, as a Member of the League of Nations, is partly responsible for the adequate provision of means for maintaining peaceful conditions in this territory during the time of the plebiscite. I feel sure that His Majesty's Government do recognise their responsibility in this matter, because the League of Nations is obviously part of the collective system to which the Lord Privy Seal and other members of the Government have told us from time to time that we as a nation are prepared to stand by. As I understand it, the responsibility in regard to the policing of the Saar territory has been laid upon the local police force or constabulary, supplemented by a certain number of persons who have joined the international gendarmerie during the last few weeks or months. We are told by persons who come from that territory that so far as the internal policing is concerned, these arrangements will probably suffice, but that there is always a danger, as the noble Lord, Lord Marley, pointed out, of pressure being exerted from across the frontiers—pressure coming not only from the other side of the Rhine but also from France—and that in the event of excitement and rioting the French troops may be suddenly rushed across the frontier.
If there were a reinforcing agency it could stand by and reinforce the police and gendarmerie. Assuming that the gendarmerie and the police within the territory are sufficient to meet the needs arising within the territory, I would ask what steps do His Majesty's Government propose to take, in case there is a putsch

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from one side or other of the frontier, to prevent such action from succeeding, and to reinforce the constabularies already on the spot? I think it is quite clear that there are two Members of the League of Nations who are directly interested in this matter—France and Germany—and, therefore, so far as possible, they should be precluded from taking any action at all in providing for the sanctions or in providing any forces which are necessary for the maintenance of law and order. They should be kept as far away as possible from the field of trouble. That appears to me a strong reason why the Government should say quite candidly and boldly what they intend to do, and that they should take the lead with other Members of the League who also occupy a neutral position. They should declare that they are prepared, if necessary, to send reinforcements of troops to assist the local constabulary in case of need.
Unfortunately, it is the traditional policy of this country always to sit on the fence until the last moment, not to make up our minds as to what we are going to do until the crisis has arisen. That is what we did in a much more important crisis twenty years ago. This may be a small and insignificant event in comparison with that crisis, but the same principle applies, and we should unequivocally state what our attitude is going to be before trouble arises, and not afterwards. Therefore I beg the Government to make our position perfectly clear. I understand that we have not put any obstruction or hindrances in the way of recruitment for the Saar gendarmerie. Your Lordships, I have no doubt, will be glad to know that that is so, but I do beg of the noble Earl who is to reply for the Government to take very carefully into consideration whether it is not better to prevent any kind of trouble happening by saying clearly that we are out to back up the Commission. We should say quite definitely and clearly that we intend to back up Mr. Knox, to back up the Commission and, if necessary, to reinforce the constabulary who are already under their instructions. The Council of the League, we are told, is to meet in the course of a few days. I venture to suggest that it would. be well on that occasion to clarify the position as far as this country is concerned, to tell the world that we are prepared to assume the responsibility which we have undertaken
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in the Covenant owing to our membership of the League, that we are prepared to back that responsibility and also the collective system. I must apologise for introducing a point which does not appear in the Notice on the Paper but it is a very important point connected with the settlement of this Saar problem which we all hope will be reached in a. peaceful and orderly manner.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (EARL STAN-HOPE): My Lords, the noble Lord opposite has put three Questions on the Paper and he was good enough to give me information of one or two points which he intended to raise. With regard to the Questions on the Paper, I presume that the noble Lord refers to a statement that was made by the late M. Barthou at the League Council meeting on September 8, when he suggested that the Council should consider the question of defining, before the Saar plebiscite is held, what is meant by "maintenance of the present régime" for which the Saar electors are entitled to vote. The noble Lord will remember that that was contained in a Memorandum from the French Government; which came before the meeting of the Council on that date, was considered by the Council and was eventually referred to the Committee of Three which was established to go into the whole question of the Saar and to report to the Council. Therefore this is not a matter for discussion between His Majesty's Government and the French Government, but is entirely one for the League Council, who, indeed, have, as I said, referred it to the Committee of Three, which is sitting at this moment under Baron Aloisi to deal with questions affecting the Saar generally. Their Report will come before the Council next week. That Report has not been received by His Majesty's Government and it would be improper for them to express an opinion upon it until they have had an opportunity of considering it in full. I am not aware that any representations have been made to the League regarding the desirability of a definition by the League of the status quo so as to include the possibility of a further plebiscite in the future, and it is not proposed to instruct the British representative at the meeting of the Council in the sense suggested by the noble Lord.

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The noble Lord dealt at some length with the responsibilities of the League. I am quite sure he will realise fully, as I am sure the House does, that we are one Member of the Council and therefore it is impossible for us to assume responsibility apart from that membership. He made a suggestion that the ballot boxes should be taken to Geneva. I will certainly bring that suggestion before my right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I am sure he will give it full consideration. With regard to the question of using troops in the Saar, I would point out to him that the police who are at present in the Saar are able to speak German and, I think, French. That, of course, places them in a very different position to that which would be occupied by any body of troops, particularly those who came from this country, who would probably know neither German nor French. Your Lordships may remember that my right honourable friend made a statement in another place—it was, I think, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Marley—in which he said that there never had been any question of the use of British troops and that nothing of the sort on our part was contemplated.
The noble Lord, Lord Davies—as thought when I saw him coming armed for the fray—could not resist making another attempt to bring forward what he calls his International Police Force. I am a little surprised that he should have done so because I think he should realise the implication that can be taken from this suggestion. We have always thought that an International Police Force—apart from other difficulties which, as he knows, are numerous—might be found inadequate for the occasion and might have to be reinforced by troops from other nations, who would then become involved in war. That is exactly the thing he has put before us. He suggested that the International Police Force in the Saar at this moment might prove inadequate and other nations might be called upon to provide troops who would, of course, be brought into the turmoil and, as the noble Lord, Lord Marley, correctly said, might possibly become involved in war. Therefore the possibility of an International Police Force for larger matters than the Saar is one which most of us
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would look upon with considerable apprehension.
The noble Lord opposite referred to the safety of Mr. Knox. I need hardly say that His Majesty's Government have given that matter earnest consideration for some time past and as Mr. Knox is not only a British subject but also a member of the Government service—although of course he has been seconded for service under the League of Nations—we decided that it was our duty to provide such protection as we could. We felt that the best form of protection we could offer was the protection of officers from the Secret Service branch of Scotland Yard; so we made an offer, which has been accepted, and for some time past officers from Scotland Yard have been on duty in the Saar to afford such protection as they consider best.
The noble Lord also referred to the refusal of entry to three gentlemen from the Saar who were anxious to come to this country. I understand that they make it quite clear that they wished to rouse public opinion in this country in regard to one particular form of voting in the Saar, that they wished to suggest that a particular vote was the right one to give. That, I understand, was the reason why they were refused admission. We hold very strongly that this is entirely a matter for the Saarlanders themselves to decide. It is, in fact, a very obvious case of self-determination. Therefore we were anxious not to take any kind of side one way or the other in regard to this matter. Indeed, we felt that in common with other Members of the Council of the League we are in the position of a returning officer, and that our duty as such is to see that a perfectly free vote is given, that the voting should be carried out in accordance with the Treaty of Versailles, parts of which the noble Lord opposite quoted, so that the plebiscite should give a real indication of the views of the inhabitants of the Saar.
The noble Lord will realise that many of the questions which he has raised in his speech are questions which will have to come up for settlement when that vote has been given, because, as I understand it, the present form of government will go on after the vote has been given and until the matter comes before the Council under the section of the Annex which he

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quoted. He will remember that it is provided that:
" The League of Nations shall decide on the sovereignty under which the territory is to be placed, taking into account the wishes of the inhabitants as expressed by the voting."
That of course means after the voting has taken place. Therefore, as I have said, being in the position of a returning officer we do not feel that it is the duty of this country to make any statement at this moment as to what may happen as a result of that voting. We think that that world be grossly improper, and therefore we are awaiting the Report from the Commission of Three to the Council of the League next week. After that we shall see what is recommended to the. Council and what line we as a Member of the Council, and the Council as a whole, ought to take.
LORD MARLEY: My Lords, I am very much obliged for the full reply which has been given by the noble Earl, and also for the intervention by a noble Lord on the Liberal Benches, drawing attention to one very serious aspect of this problem. Of course, I realised that the Commission of Three, sitting, I think, in Rome, would have to report before any official answer could be given, but I was very anxious to know whether the Government had given any instructions to our representative at the Council, and I am very disappointed to hear that no line of policy has been indicated as one which this country will follow in certain circumstances. That seems to me to lend point to the complaint which has so often been made by the noble Viscount, Lord Cecil of Chelwood, that this country never will lay down a policy in advance but will always, as the noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, sit on the fence until the thing has happened and then come down on one side or the other, but always—or too often—too late. I am very much obliged to the noble Earl for promising to carry through the suggestion about the ballot boxes. I think that would be a helpful point for the voters.
With regard to the police, I do not think it was made clear by the noble Earl that there is no intention that foreign troops used as police in the Saar shall be going about like the policemen of this country, walking about the streets,
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directing the traffic and so on. The idea of the Governing Commission is, as I have understood it, to maintain these organised police in barracks only to he used in case of need. There is no question of their coming in contact with the inhabitants. Th idea is that they should be a disciplined and trained force to be called in by the Governing Commission in case of need rather than calling in French troops who are on the boundary and whose entry might be the cause of very wide and dangerous repercussions. As anybody who has been connected with the Army will realise, the recruiting of individuals from various countries cannot create a disciplined and controlled force. That takes months and even years. Therefore there is something to be said, though I throw out the suggestion with a good deal of hesitation, for the use of organised and trained bodies drawn from various countries—I do not say from one country only—rather than recruiting individuals from this and that country for such a delicate and difficult task.
I am obliged to the noble Earl for his reply to me about the three visitors from the Saar who were not allowed in. My information was that they were not here to advocate one way of voting, but that they were here to advocate that public opinion in this country should support my suggestion, for example, that the League of Nations should define the status quo before the voting took place so that the people would know what they were voting for. I can only leave the matter by saying that I cannot conceive how we can consider a vote to be free, and on an issue clearly placed before the voters, when one of the points upon which they must vote has never been defined and when it can have no meaning to the majority of those inhabitants. I think that is a matter of very profound concern to this country, and will be a profound disappointment to those minorities who are in danger and who are looking to this country to do something to protect them. I have on the Order Paper a Motion for Papers. I understand that the Report of the Commission of Three will be published?
EARL STANHOPE: I am not sure, but I imagine that it will be.
LORD MARLEY: Assuming that the report of the Commission of Three is published, that of course will furnish all that I can hope to obtain, and therefore I would like permission to withdraw my Motion.
Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, in moving that this House do now adjourn I should like to mention that I understand we are to meet to-morrow morning at eleven o'clock and that the Commission for the prorogation of Parliament will sit at 11.15, not at 11.30.
House adjourned at three minutes before six o'clock.