HL Deb 07 November 1934 vol 94 cc163-72

LORD STRABOLGI had given Notice that he would ask His Majesty's Government what progress has been made with the Indianisation of His Majesty's Army in India; what developments in this direction are contemplated in the future; and move for Papers. The noble Lord said: My Lords, I desire to ask the Government the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper, and I wish to make it clear that this Question is asked in no unfriendly spirit. Indeed, I understand that the President of the Board of Education is going to reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government, and his sympathy with the aspirations of patriotic Indians is well known, and I dare say is partly due to his own distinguished services in the field. I ask this Question now because not only, as I think, shall we be agreed that it is an important Question, but I desire to seek information at a time when we are clear of immediate controversy on these allied questions of Reforms in India. In a little time we may be plunged into what we are told may be a fierce controversy on the Reforms. Therefore this is a suitable time, I believe, to ask the Government for a reply to the matters that I propose to raise.

The importance of the Question is this, I submit, that to-day all Parties in the State are agreed that there shall be an advance towards self-government in the great Indian Empire. Such difference as there may be is only with regard to the speed or pace of the advance. There was recently announced a great scheme of retirement for senior British officers of His Majesty's Army in India. They were described as redundant officers. It is needless to say that no reflection was cast upon these gentlemen, who had performed great services to the State, but as a result of the War there was a great surplus of senior British officers in India, and a generous scheme of retirement was introduced. We have the same thing in the Army here, and in His Majesty's Royal Navy, for senior officers, who are naturally in greater numbers than are required after a period of war. It was announced at the same time, in the account of the retirement scheme published in The Times, that the numbers of young British officers from Woolwich and Sandhurst for His Majesty's Indian Army would continue at the present rate, I believe about 100 a year; and my first question to the noble Viscount is: What is the intention with regard to the recruiting of gentlemen of European parentage in this country for the Indian regiments of His Majesty's Army in India? Is it intended to keep up this rate of entry from Woolwich and Sandhurst, of about 100 gentlemen a year?

The next question is with regard to what is the present output, if I may use that word, of Indian gentlemen to hold Commissions in His Majesty's Army in India. As your Lordships know, India has plenty of soldiers among her sons, but there is a grave lack of Indian officers for His Majesty's Army. This is to be remedied, however, and the object of my Question is to ascertain what progress has been made, and what steps are to be taken in the future. May I also ask how many Indian gentlemen now hold Commissions in His Majesty's Army in India, or, alternatively, in His Majesty's Army, not necessarily the Indian Army? How many units have been Indianised, and are these completely Indianised? I understood when I was in India a few years ago, when the noble Viscount was occupying the high office of Viceroy, with very great distinction, if I may say so, that the intention was to Indianise eight units, and, when that had been done, a further eight units. I therefore ask what progress has been made with that part of the programme. Again, are any brigades, today, commanded by Indian officers, and what progress has been made with the provision of officers for the Artillery and Air Force of His Majesty's Army and Air Force in India? I repeat these questions, though I rave notice through the noble Earl, Lord Lucan, to the Government, and I believe the noble Viscount, Lord Halifax, has been made aware of these particular questions.

The only other comments which I have to make are these. I believe that the rapidity of the progress in Indianising the Army in India, that is, providing sufficient Indian officers to command units and eventually brigades and divisions of the Army, will be the test either of our sincerity or of the practicability of Indianisation. I have heard it said by very experienced British military officers that it is not practicable to Indianise beyond a very limited extent. What we actually do will be the proof of that. India has two problems of defence which, as your Lordships are aware, are very serious problems. The first is the frontier problem, both on the North-West and the North-East frontiers, and the last information I had was that the calculations of the Staff are that the armed tribesmen on and beyond the frontiers can put into the field 390,000 rifles, if they all take the field together, and the martial qualities of the Pathans are, of course, well known to your Lordships. Therefore that constitutes, however friendly our relations with our immediate neighbours on the frontier, a very serious military problem which will remain for many years.

The other serious defence problem in India is, of course, the maintenance of internal order in view of possibilities of communal strife. This subject, I submit, is of very vital importance, and it is quite independent of whatever may be the findings of the Joint Select Committee, of which one of the members, my noble friend Lord Snell, is sitting below me. Nevertheless it is a fact that before there was a great advance made towards self-government in other British Dominions, in each case after a period of unrest or strife, the Dominion in question had at its disposal aimed forces for, at any rate, the maintenance of internal peace. I will cite the three cases—I do not say they are altogether comparable—of Ireland, South Africa, and Canada. In each case after a period of unrest and strife those three great Dominions attained self-government, but in each case they had at their disposal plenty of trained officers to command their armed forces. In the past India had these trained officers also and this is the answer to those who are desirous of proceeding with extraordinary prudence and care in Indianising.

In the past the Indians had plenty of officers and very capable ones too. Your Lordships will be aware that the Imperial Army of the Moghuls was largely officered by Indians and in several cases commanded by Rajput generals. The Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Army was frequently a Hindu in the past, and a more recent example was in the days of the Sikh Confederacy, where the Sikhs north of the Indus had a complete military control of the country. I understand that Ranjit Singh had only six European officers as advisers, and yet they maintained the Peace of the frontier with success. Therefore Indians in the past have provided these officers. I have added the usual request at the end of my Question for Papers. That is not a mere formality. If the noble Viscount could lay Papers, I think it would be advantageous to your Lordships' House.

I can well understand the professional pride of British officers in the magnificent regiments incorporated in His Majesty's Army in India who are reluctant to have their places taken by Indian officers, who, they may think, perhaps will not be so successful as battalion commanders and the like. I can understand that professional pride. There is a less sympathetic obstruction to a more rapid progress in this matter that is represented by prejudice, or, in some cases, even by vested interests. I do not think those objections are worthy of the attention of this House, but they do exist. I will admit, and I am sure my noble friends on this side of the House will admit, that in this matter there are very grave technical difficulties in making a more rapid progress and, needless to say, His Majesty's Government are well aware of them. But I repeat, in no unfriendly spirit at all I would ask for assurances on this point, and some information on the matter. I have ventured to give one or two opinions of my own with great diffidence, though I am really seeking for facts. I put this Question in a not unfriendly way because, whatever doubts I may feel about the policy of His Majesty's Government in domestic matters, or even in foreign affairs, their efforts, as far as I know them, with regard to the future of India, have my warm sympathy, and I hope that the noble Viscount in the same spirit will be able to give such information as he properly can which he has at his disposal. I beg to move.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (VISCOUNT HALIFAX)

My Lords, I must thank the noble Lord for the friendly spirit in which he has brought forward this Motion. I only hope that the very warmth of his generosity on this subject will not inspire doubts in the minds of any of those of my friends on this side who are accustomed to disagree with him on other matters, as to the general wisdom of any policy in regard to Indian affairs that His Majesty's Government may later deem it their duty to lay before your Lordships' House. I recognise that in the Question that he has asked the noble Lord has been inspired by no other purpose than to seek information on a matter which, as he says, is of first rate public importance, and the consideration of which is extremely relevant to the wider matters on which indeed he has quite properly, if I may say so, not thought it right to touch this afternoon, but which will in due course arise for consideration here and elsewhere. Perhaps I shall best serve his and your Lordships' convenience if I try to answer as categorically as I may the actual questions that he has put to me, and which he was courteous enough to give me previous information that it was his intention to bring forward.

He asked me first a question in regard to the scheme of retirement for British officers in the Indian Army recently announced, and, if I understood his point correctly, he sought to know whether that scheme of retirement and the calculations upon which it was based had regard to the already announced policy of His Majesty's Government in regard to Indianisation; and whether the rate of recruitment of British officers had regard to the increased Indianisation programme recently announced. That, of course, is so. The numbers of British recruitment on which we are at present working have full regard to the Indianisation policy that has been announced and that is in process of being put into effect. He next asked if I could tell him what was the present annual output of Indian officers, and if I could give him any estimate of annual wastage. I am told that the annual output from the Indian Military Academy which has recently been established will be sixty. With regard to wastage, he will appreciate that it is very difficult as yet to give precise figures, owing to the fact that insufficient time has yet elapsed on which those figures could be based, but it might perhaps help him if I gave him these figures which would give him some indication of what happens. In May this year out of 153 Indian cadets commissioned from Sandhurst between July, 1921, and December, 1933, 139 were still holding Commissions.

He asked me next how many Indian officers now hold Commissions in His Majesty's Indian Army. The answer is 148. To that figure there must be added twenty-eight officers on the unattached list—namely, young officers who are doing their preliminary year's training with a British unit before joining the Indian Army. Fifteen units are now in process of Indianisation, and those fifteen units include the original units that were earmarked for Indianisation in 1923. He will also appreciate that as yet sufficient time has not elapsed for any Indian officer to reach the point of qualifying as Brigade Commander. I am advised that so to qualify involves something like thirty years' seniority, and as yet, therefore, sufficient time has not passed to permit any Indian officer to reach that point in the Service. His last categorical question, I think, was if I could tell him what progress had been made with the training of Indians for Commissions in the Artillery and the Air Force. With regard to the Artillery, three cadet officers have been commissioned from Woolwich and further vacancies are to be filled from the Indian Military Academy. Of course the start was made on the Artillery and Air Force very much later than the original start of Indianisation in the other branches of the Army. With regard to the Air Force the Indian Air Force came into being in March of last year, and it now has nine commissioned officers and six cadets under training, all of whom are Indians.

I think that I have answered the precise questions that the noble Lord addressed to me on matters of fact, and it only remains for me to make one or two general observations on the broader issues that he had in mind. It is, of course, the case that the whole problem of Indianisation has for a long time past been engaging the attention both of the Government of India and of His Majesty's Government here, and I do not think it is necessary for me to give any assurance to the noble Lord, or indeed to any other, that that polio, of Indianisation, of gradually equipping Indians for the defence of their own country, is one to which His Majesty's Government attach the greatest possible importance and which they will certainly steadily pursue.

He, of course, had in mind, and indeed I think it was implicit in what he said, that in our consideration of this topic two factors have constantly to be remembered and are related to one another. There is first of all the factor that found expression, if I may be forgiven for quoting the words, in the Report of the Sub-Committee of, I think, the First Round-Table Conference that dealt with defence and recorded its conclusions in these words: The Sub-Committee consider that with the development of the new political structure in India the defence of India must to an increasing extent be the concern of the Indian people and not of the British alone. It will not have escaped your Lordships' notice that the Commission presided over by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary some years ago used words expressive of the same idea when they said: We consider that this obligation [the Indianisation of the Army] should continue to be honoured in the letter and the spirit. They also went on to remind us of what I have in mind as the second factor that has to be related with that—namely, the necessity at all stages of making your test of progress the test of efficiency.

The interests of India, both external and internal, to which the noble Lord referred, are far too vital to allow any steps to he taken that in the judgment of those best qualified to speak would undermine or endanger the efficiency of the defence forces in India. But, subject only to that, it is the purpose of His Majesty's Government to continue with the programme that was recently laid down, with the approval of the Government of India and of His Majesty's Government here, by the Commander-in-Chief in India and which has received full public notice. Although the noble Lord to-day disclaimed on his own part any sympathy with, or indeed any firm belief in, the suggestion sometimes made outside that there may be hesitation to proceed more rapidly, through prejudice or vested interest, I think it would be no less my duty to make it plain on behalf of His Majesty's Government that any suggestions to that effect are entirely without solid foundation. It remains, therefore, the purpose of the Government that Indianisation during the next stage should consist of the components of a complete Division with its full complement of artillery, engineers, and signallers as well as a cavalry brigade and a battery of horse artillery. It is on these lines, as I have said, announced by the Commander-in-Chief, that the Government of India is to-day proceeding, and with the assistance and material to be drawn from the Indian Military Academy we hope they will be able to make steady progress with it.

I think that perhaps is all I need say. I note the noble Lord's request for Papers. I am not quite sure what Papers he may have in mind or what Papers it may be possible for my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for India to cause to be laid before Parliament, but I shall certainly consult my right honourable friend, and if the noble Lord has any particular Papers in mind and cares to communicate with me on the subject I should be very glad indeed to transmit his request to the proper quarters.

LORD LLOYD

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend this question? With regard to the fifteen units he referred to as being in process of Indianisation, could he let us know when they will be completely Indianised? What is the estimated time?

VISCOUNT HALIFAX

I should hesitate to give a precise answer to that question without notice.

LORD LLOYD

Roughly?

VISCOUNT HALIFAX

No, I am afraid I could not commit myself to a date. The noble Lord will perhaps be aware that when the extension of the Indianising units was made some of the officers from the existing Indianising units were withdrawn from them and transferred to the new Indianising units in order to spread the seniority more evenly, and I am not sufficiently expert, I am afraid, to know what effect that may have had upon the process he has in mind.

LORD STRABOLGI

My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount very much for his full and detailed reply. With regard to the request for Papers, I do not want to press that except that I would like to accept the offer he made. The Papers I would personally like would be a detailed report of the actual working in India of the Indianisation of these units, not immediately, but perhaps before we have to take a decision in the latter part of next year on any of the proposed reforms. One comment I wish to make in regard to what the noble Viscount said is about the brigadiers. I was rather astonished to hear that it is still considered necessary to have served over thirty years in a subordinate position to become brigadier. A great many members of your Lordships' House became brigadiers at a much earlier age than that. If that means that it must be thirty years before an Indian gentleman can command a brigade in India in an Indianised army I really would protest most seriously, otherwise we need not talk about any serious reforms in India.

The other comment I wish to make is this. The noble Viscount is well aware, I am sure, of what has been done by Admiral Warleigh and other officers in regard to the Royal Indian Navy, as it is now called: there he and his comrades met some of the same difficulties. There are plenty of Mahomedan seamen, good seamen and navigators too, and, in fact officers of the mercantile marine, but he had difficulty in obtaining Indian gentlemen suitable for naval cadet-ships who would command men at sea and perform like duties in an officer-like manner. He took his selected young men from certain of the martial races of North India, living miles from the sea—I believe the noble Lord, Lord Lloyd, has some knowledge of this—and these turned out to be excellent young seamen with the officer-like qualities required, and indeed, I believe Admiral Warleigh's experiment and that of his comrades was highly successful. There you had a case where we did not take thirty years before it was possible to make a commanding officer. We have gone on with the work, and it was done, and is proceeding rather successfully.

With regard to the question of efficiency, well, you do not expect to make an Oriental battalion quite the equal of a crack regiment in our own Army or the French Army or the German Army. You have to make certain allowance. What you do want is a suitable police force—a suitable police force in the broad sense of the word—and a good rough and tumble force for fighting on the frontier. With modern mechanised means such as armoured cars, aeroplanes, and so on, you can do that to-day without having the same wonderful discipline, for instance, as you get in the Cameron Highlanders or the Grenadier Guards or one of the great regiments of our French Allies. I thank the noble Viscount. I do not press for Papers, but I do accept his offer, if there are Papers for the information of your Lordships' House on this vital matter, that we may have them in the near future. I beg to withdraw the Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.