HL Deb 19 June 1934 vol 93 cc7-14

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Applications for Orders and proceedings thereon.

1.—(1) If an organisation of employers in the cotton manufacturing industry (hereinafter referred to as "the industry") and an organisation of persons employed in the industry make to the Minister of Labour (hereinafter referred to as "the Minister") in the prescribed manner a joint application for the making of an Order with respect to any agreement made between the organisations as to the rates of wages to be paid to any persons employed in the industry, the Minister shall, unless he is satisfied that the organisations do not respectively represent the employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry and the majority of the persons employed in the industry of the class or classes which will, if such an Order is made, be affected by the rates of wages provided for by the agreement, appoint a board to consider the application and report to him thereon.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ROCHESTER) moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "any persons employed in the industry" and insert "persons employed in the industry of any class or description specified in the agreement." The noble Lord said: The object of this, together with other Amendments, is to make it clear that rates of wages can be fixed, if desired, for sections of the industry, provided that the organisation of workers who make the agreement with the organisation of employers is representative, not merely of the section for whom the rates are fixed, but of the whole grade of workers right through the industry.

Amendment moved— Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out from the third ("to") to the second ("the") in line 14 and insert ("persons employed in the industry of any class or description specified in the agreement").—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "class or classes" and insert "grade or grades." The noble Lord said: This Amendment and the next are moved to safeguard the position raised by Lord Askwith on the Second Reading. I then undertook on behalf of the Government to substitute "grade" for "class" in Clause 7 and in anticipation of your Lordships agreeing to that alteration I am moving these two Amendments.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 18, leave out ("class" or "classes") and insert ("grade or grades").—(Lord Rochester.)

LORD ASKWITH

I am obliged to the noble Lord. The Amendment makes it much more clear and much less likely that there will be dispute, or the possibility of dispute, as to what grade a man belongs to. "Grade," is narrower than "class."

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ROCHESTER

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 15, leave out ("class or classes") and insert ("grade or grades")—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD AMULREE had given Notice of an Amendment to insert at the end of the clause: The board in enquiring whether it is expedient that an Order be made under this Act shall have regard to the differentials in wages and piece prices made under any practice, agreement or award in operation in any outlying place or places within the areas specified in the Schedule to this Act.

The noble Lord said: Since I put this Amendment on the Paper I have heard that local negotiations are on foot with regard to coming to a decision on the subject covered by my Amendment and various other matters. If agreement is reached it will be unnecessary to include my Amendment in the Bill. I have no wish to disturb local negotiations and in those circumstances I do not propose to move my Amendment.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Making of Orders.

2.—(1) If the report of the board appointed to consider any application made under the last foregoing section with respect to any agreement contains a unanimous recommendation that an Order he made bringing into force the provisions of the agreement relating to the rates of wages to be paid to persons who will be affected by those rates, the Minister may make such an Order.

2 An Order made under this section shall set out the rates of wages thereby brought into force, and any provisions of the agreement as to the conditions for earning or the method of calculating such wages, and the Order may contain such further provisions, if any, as the Minister considers necessary for making plain who are the employers and the employed persons affected by the rates of wages brought into force by the Order, but no such Order shall modify the terms of the agreement.

LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "the provisions of the agreement relating to the rate of wages to be paid to persons who will be affected by those rates" and insert "as respects all persons employed in the industry of the class or description to which the agreement relates, the rates of wages provided for by the agreement." The noble Lord said: This Amendment makes it clear that the rates to which legal effect is given by an Order apply not only to members of the organisations but also to workers of the same description who are outside those organisations.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 34, leave out from ("force") to ("the") in line 36 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ROCHESTER moved, in subsection (2), before "no such order," to insert "save as aforesaid." The noble Lord said: This Amendment is to ensure that while the Minister of Labour is not empowered to modify the terms of the agreement, he may insert provisions in the Order to make clear who are the employers and the employed persons affected by the rates of wages.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 2, after ("but") insert ("save as aforesaid").—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 3 [Effect of Orders]:

LORD ROCHESTER

The next three Amendments together raise the same point and are designed to bring out more clearly the intentions mentioned in a preceding Amendment—namely, that when the Order is made the rates of wages affect not only those members of the organisations who were parties to the agreement, but also persons outside those organisations.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 7, leave out from ("industry") to ("and") in line 9, and insert ("as respects whom a rate of wages is provided for by the Order")

Page 3, line 14, leave out ("who is affected by the agreement") and insert ("as respects whom a rate of wages is provided for by the Order")

Page 3, line 21, leave out from ("industry") to ("provided") in line 22 and insert ("as respects whom rates of wages are").—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Loan ROCHESTER

The next two Amendments state in rather shorter form what is the obligation upon the employer concerned—namely, to keep conspicuously exhibited in his premises a copy of the Order. The Order, of course, will contain a list of the rates of wages payable.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, line 23, after ("keep") insert ("a copy of the Order conspicuously")

Page 3, line 24, leave out from ("employed") to ("and") in line 27.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 [Revocation of Orders]:

LORD ROCHESTER moved to insert at the end of subsection (1): Provided that if before the expiration of that period the request is, by notice in writing addressed to the Minister, withdrawn by the organisation by which it was made, the Minister shall not make such an Order as aforesaid but shall forthwith cause to be published in the London, Gazette notice of the withdrawal of the request and of the fact that no further proceedings will be taken thereon.

The noble Lord said: Subsection (1) of Clause 4 enables either of the organisations who made the original application for the making of an Order to request the Minister of Labour to revoke that Order either wholly or in part. When that request has been made the Minister has no option but to revoke the Order at the expiry of three months from the date of such request. This Amendment is to give the organisation making the request an opportunity of altering its mind and withdrawing its request for the revocation. Second thoughts are sometimes best and this will give an opportunity for the two organisations to come together again and see whether the Order that is in operation cannot be allowed to remain in operation. The Amendment is obviously a reasonable one.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 6, at end insert the said proviso.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 5 and 6 agreed to.

Clause 7:

Interpretation.

(2) For the purposes of this Act all weavers employed in the industry shall be deemed to form a single class, and other classes shall be determined in like manner by reference to the several occupations of the persons employed.

LORD ROCHESTER moved to leave out subsection (2) and insert: (2) In determining for the purposes of this Act whether an organisation was at any date representative of the employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry, no account shall be taken of the looms in any factory in which during the period of twelve months immediately preceding that date no looms had been used;

The noble Lord said: I ask your Lordships to consider the next Amendment, as it appears on the Order Paper, in two sections, because I want to safeguard a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Askwith, on the Second Reading. By Clause 1 (1) the employers' organisation for the purpose of making an agreement must, represent employers controlling the majority of the looms in the industry, and the first part of this Amendment is designed to make it clear that for the purpose of calculating the majority of employers of that organisation, only active factories are to be taken into account. This method of calculation is almost the only one that can be applied with certainty. An alternative suggestion has been to calculate this majority by reference to looms being used, but this is almost impossible to do; for it is almost impossible to check in a factory that is, for instance, working short time how many looms were idle and how many looms were used, whereas it is a matter that can be reduced to a certainty whether the whole factory has been idle or working.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert the said words.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LOUD ROCHESTER moved, after the words last inserted, to insert: and in determining for the said purposes whether an organisation was at any date representative of the majority of the persons employed in the industry of any grade or grades, all weavers employed in the industry shall be deemed to form a single grade, and other grades shall be determined in like manner by reference to the several occupations of the persons employed.

The noble Lord said: This, the second part of the Amendment, together with the Amendment to Clause 1, page 1, line 13, is intended to make it clear that rates of wages can be fixed for sections of the industry, but that the applicant organisation on the workers' side must represent the majority of the persons employed in the industry of the grade affected by the rates of wages provided for by the agreement. For example, where an agreement provides rates of wages for some weavers, the application must, nevertheless, be made by an organisation representing a majority of all weavers. The object is to prevent the Bill from being used to give legal effect to a local agreement without the assent of the central organisations concerned. This is necessary to ensure orderly and effective negotiation, since the rates in any one group or district may have repercussions on other groups or districts. It is the point raised by Lord Askwith on the Second Reading, when I undertook on behalf of the Government to substitute the word "grade" for "class"; but after looking into it further, as I promised to do, I saw that it did not quite meet the whole of his purpose. If the people making application to the board have not been specifically informed, then the board must make it abundantly clear to whom the award will apply. I think that this second part of the Amendment does cover that point, and I hope that it will meet my noble friend.

Amendment moved— Page 6, after the words last inserted, insert the said words.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Schedule [Areas in which cotton manufacturing industry in carried on]:

LORD ROCHESTER moved to leave out the first three lines of the Schedule and insert:

In the West Biding of the County of York—"

The noble Lord said: This Amendment and those which follow are purely drafting. So far as Lancashire is concerned, the Bill is to apply throughout the County, including in that expression the county boroughs; accordingly, the County is described as the "Administrative County of Lancaster" and then all the county boroughs are set out by name. This follows the description of the localities in the Local Government Act of last year.

Amendment moved— Page 7, leave out lines 4, 5 and 6 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved—

Page 7, line 11, leave out ("Luddenenfoot") and insert ("Luddendenfoot")

Page 7, line 20, leave out ("Derbyshire") and insert ("Derby")

Page 7, line 25, leave out ("Cheshire") and insert ("Chester").—(Lord Rochester.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.