Lords Sitting of 23 May 1933

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
COTTON INDUSTRY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; and to be printed.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS AUDIT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; and to be printed.
VICTORIA INFIRMARY OF GLAS GOW ACT, 1888 (AMENDMENT) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read la and 2a and to have been reported from the Committee.

KNUTSFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.] THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
(THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I understand that the promoters do not intend to proceed with this Bill. Therefore, with your Lordships' permission, I will not move the Second Reading.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.
Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.

LONDON MIDLAND AND SCOTTISH RAILWAY BILL.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, the Second Reading of this Bill is postponed.
STAFFORDSHIRE AND WORCESTER SHIRECANAL BILL.
Read 3a, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
CALVINISTIC METHODIST OR PRES BYTERIAN CHURCH OF WALES BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

ABERDEEN ROYAL INFIRMARY AND MENTAL HOSPITAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to the Aberdeen Royal Infirmary and Mental Hospital.
On Question, Bill presented; to be printed, and (pursuant to Section 7 of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read la and 2a and to have been reported from the Committee.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (BOROUGH OF BARKING ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the Borough of Barking, and laid before this House on the 11th instant, be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the Borough of Barking, and laid before this House on the 11th instant, be approved.—The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT, 1932 (URBAN DISTRICT OF WILLESDEN ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move a similar Resolution with reference to extending the Sunday Entertainments Act to the urban district of Willesden.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that
980
Act to the urban district of Willesden, and laid before this House on the 11th instant, be approved.—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HEREFORD AND WEST KENT MAIN SEWER AGE DISTRICT) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (TEES VALLEY WATER BOARD AND WEST MON MOUTHSHIRE OMNIBUS BOARD) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order) on re-commitment of the Bill: Bill reported without amendment.

SOLICITORS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD HANWORTH: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be read a second time. The Bill is one which has for its object a purpose of which I am quite sure your Lordships will approve. It is in some measure to safeguard the public, and at the same time to give some possibility or an opportunity to the solicitors themselves to control those who are less careful in the matter of their accounts and in dealing with moneys entrusted to them. In the course of the past few years the solicitors' profession, no less than the public, have been much concerned at some cases in which defalcations have taken place in respect of moneys entrusted to solicitors. When I tell your Lordships that there are some 15,000 solicitors upon the Roll it can hardly be expected that there should not be some cases among them where a breach of trust may be committed. At the same time the solicitors have been very anxious indeed, for the honour of their profession, that they should take all steps that are possible to prevent the occurrence of these unfortunate incidents.
One measure that they propose after considerable deliberation is embodied in this Bill—namely, that solicitors should

981
be bound to keep separate accounts of their clients' moneys and also have a separate account at the bank into which money entrusted to them by their clients should be paid. Cases have come before the Law Society in which it has been found that the initial lapse has arisen from a mistake. A solicitor has thought that his own personal account was in better credit than it was and has overlooked the fact that that account contained moneys which belonged to his clients. It remains as true as in the past when the words were written:
"How oft the sight of means to do ill deeds,
Make deeds ill done!"
It may well be that a solicitor, not truly observing that the funds at his hank do not belong to him, has by carelessness more than dishonesty taken the original step which has lauded him in his downfall and his client in distress.
After some considerable deliberation over a period of years the system which is now enshrined in the Bill has been brought into being. The Law Society itself and the provincial Law Societies have for some years been engaged in trying to devise a system which might impose upon solicitors the duties of keeping separate banking accounts without imposing too great hardships upon some members of the profession, and over a period from 1930 there have been various schemes afloat. Some of them have been presented in the form of Bills in another place and I am happy to say the Bill to which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading is one which has passed through all its stages in another place and comes to your Lordships for final approval.
The scheme of the Bill is simple. Your Lordships will remember that there is a Committee of the Law Society known as the Disciplinary Committee to which is entrusted the duty of investigating charges made against solicitors and suggesting what should be the penalty imposed upon them in case they are found guilty; and their recommendation has ultimately to go before the Courts and to be confirmed. Your Lordships will find that by Clause 1 it is laid down that:
"The Council of the Law Society shall make rules—

(a) as to the opening and keeping by solicitors of accounts at banks for clients' moneys; and

982

(b) as to the keeping by solicitors of accounts containing particulars and information as to moneys received, held or paid by thorn, for or on account of their clients."

Of course that might be merely a pious aspiration, but power is given to the Council to take such action as may be necessary to enable the Council to ascertain whether or not the rules are complied with.
The rules are to be made subject to the approval of the Master of the Rolls, who may be shortly described as the person who is known as the father-in-law of all solicitors. He signs all their admissions; he has power to restore them to the Roll if they have been taken off; he has power to relieve those who aspire to be solicitors from a preliminary examination in proper cases; and he has power to relieve them of the consequence of various defaults such as in the renewal of their certificates and so on. I am happy to say that in the present case the close association between the Master of the Rolls and the Law Society and all solicitors, is of the happiest; and in the ten years during which I have had this work entrusted to me my admiration for solicitors as a whole has increased as the time has gone on. The Master of the Rolls is to approve of these rules, as he does in the case of a number of other rules that are part of the working system of the entrance and renewal of solicitors' certificates. Then the clause provides that there shall be power to the Committee to ascertain and to deal with complaints if complaints should be made that the rules have not been complied with. That is the operative part of the Bill.
Then it was important to deal with certain solicitors who hold what might be called official positions. There is a saving in Clause 4 for solicitors who are employed as public officers such as those in the office of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, Queen Anne's Bounty, the Forestry Fund, the Development Fund and so on. These are specified in the Bill and the clause has been agreed with the proper authorities. Clauses 5 and 6 have been agreed with the Ministry of Health and provide for proper exception in the case of certain county officers. Clause 6 also gives the interpretation of certain expressions. Clause 8 is a clause which has been a little troublesome, but it has

983
been finally agreed with the Bankers' Association.
That is the purpose of the Bill. I think it contains quite a sufficient number of safeguards to cover those cases which ought not to be brought within it. At the same time it imposes upon solicitors a standard to which they ought to act up and which I may say does prevail among the leaders of the profession and most others. Here is an effort to impose that standard upon all with certain limited safeguards. I hope that as the Bill has been found to be satisfactory-after close examination in another place, your Lordships will also find it worthy not only of a Second Reading, but also of being passed into law. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Hanworth.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I have one or two suggestions to make to my noble and learned friend in charge of the Bill, so that if he thinks fit he can move Amendments in Committee. If your Lordships look at Clause 2 you will see that:
"If a solicitor fails to comply with any of the rules made under the preceding section, any person may make a complaint in respect of that failure to the Disciplinary Committee."
Surely "any person" is a very wide term because, under Clause 1 (b), the Council of the Law Society shall make rules
"as to the keeping by solicitors of accounts containing particulars and information as to moneys received, held or paid by them, for or on account of their clients."
If you give a sort of roving commission to people to enquire whether these provisions are adhered to by various solicitors you may get people going to find out all this information who then may use it in some improper manner. If you have such a wide clause surely there should be some penalty provision, as in the case of the Coal Mines Act and, I think, the Land Drainage Act, for dealing with people who, in their official capacity, obtain information which they proceed to give away to others.
Then if your Lordships will turn to page 4, line 20, you find these words:
"Provided that nothing in this subsection shall deprive a bank of any right existing at the time when the first rules made under this Act come into operation."
984
I should have thought that there ought to be some time limit. If the banks do not exercise their rights within a certain time I think they ought to be precluded, because the banks are very rich and can much more easily afford to sustain a loss than ordinary members of the public. I put these matters before my noble and learned friend for his consideration, or for him to move Amendments if he thinks fit in Committee.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

RUBBER INDUSTRY BILL. [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1:
Contributions by rubber manufacturers and application thereof.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, a contribution at the rate for the time being applicable under this Act shall be paid to the Research Association of British Rubber Manufacturers (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the Association") by every manufacturer in respect of all rubber of a description specified in the first column of the First Schedule to this Act, which is delivered to him on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, whether in pursuance of a contract of sale or otherwise:
Provided that, if a manufacturer proves that a full contribution has already been paid under this Act in respect of any rubber so delivered to him, no contribution shall be payable by him in respect of that rubber, or, in the case of a partial contribution, the balance only of the contribution shall be payable by him.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (LORD IRWIN)THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (LORD IRWIN) moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), to leave out all words after "Provided that, if a manufacturer proves" and insert:
"in respect of any rubber so delivered to him—

(a) that the contribution has already been paid under this Act, or

(b) that a payment has already been made under this Act on account of that contribution,

no contribution or, as the case may be, the balance only of that contribution remaining unpaid shall be payable by him."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment to carry out the intention of an Amendment which I provisionally accepted in Committee on the

985
motion of Lord Bertie of Thame and I hope that he will think that it does so. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1 page 1 line 16, leave out from ("proves") to the end of line 21, and insert the said new words.—(Lord Irwin.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: My Lords, I am much obliged to my noble friend and his advisers for perfecting my feeble attempt.
On Question, Amendment agreed to. Clause 3:
Appointment and duties of coffee audit of accounts.
(2) No person shall be qualified to be appointed to the office of collector unless he is a chartered or incorporated accountant, and no person shall be appointed to or dismissed from that office except with the approval of the Department.
VISCOUNT EMBANK VISCOUNT EMBANK moved, in subsection (2), to leave out "chartered or incorporated" and insert "qualified." The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I should like first of all to apologise for not having sent in these Amendments earlier, because I happened to be in Scotland and could not get them away till yesterday. The noble Lord, Lord Irwin, has been good enough to say, however, that he would allow me to move my Amendments to-day. I would ask your Lordships to look at the' Amendments together, because then it will be easier to explain them. I am proposing to move Amendments to Clauses 3, 4 and 7. Under the Bill a collector is to be appointed to administer the Bill. That collector will be a certified chartered or incorporated accountant. The appointment is made under Clause 3. Under Clause 4 there are also certain acts to be performed by a chartered or incorporated accountant in connection with the signature of certifi3ates signed under the Third Schedule.
The point is that if the words "chartered or incorporated" accountant remain in the Bill they will restrict the number of accountants who are qualified to hold either of these posts. There are in this country a number of very reputable and well known societies and bodies of accountants which are accepted in connection with municipal corporations and other important bodies of that kind,
986
for the auditing of their accounts. Indeed in connection with a Bill which is at present before another House, called the Municipal Corporations Audit Bill, the Parliamentary Secretary of the Ministry of Health, as recently as May 19 said:
"It does mean, however, that the status of all the societies in the Schedule has been very carefully weighed, examined and approved, and, so far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, we can recommend any local authority to appoint as professional auditor anyone belonging to any of the bodies whose names appear in the Schedule."
The names which appear in the Schedule of that Bill are exactly the same as the names set out in my Amendment to Clause 7—namely, the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales, the Society of Incorporated Accountants and Auditors, the Society of Accountants in Edinburgh, the Institute of Accountants and Actuaries in Glasgow, the Society of Accountants in Aberdeen and—I should like to make a slight alteration in the next line by inserting the word "certified" in my Amendment —the London Association of Certified Accountants Limited, and the Corporation of Accountants Limited.
I venture to hope that the noble Lord will accept this Amendment to Clause 3, and, subsequently, the other Amendments, in view of the fact that the Government have already, through this other measure to which I have referred, the Municipal Corporations Audit Bill, agreed that all these societies are capable of performing the duties of a chartered or incorporated accountant. In order to put this matter right I therefore beg to move that the words "chartered or incorporated" in subsection (2) be left out, and the word "qualified" inserted instead. If that were done also in Clause 4, and the additional subsection be added to Clause 7, explaining what a qualified accountant means, in the terms of the societies whose names I have read out, that would carry my object into effect.
Amendment moved—
Clause 3, page 3, lines 30 and 31, leave out ("chartered or incorporated") and insert ("qualified").—(Viscount Elibank.)
LORD IRWIN: My Lords, I shall be pleased to accept the Amendment moved by my noble friend. I understand that the two subsequent Amendments are

987
consequential and if he moves them in the form suggested with the addition of the word "certified," I will accept them also.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4 [Accounts to be rendered by manufacturers]:
VISCOUNT ELIBANK: My Lords, I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 17, leave out ("chartered or incorporated") and insert ("qualified").—(Viscount Elibank.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7 [Interpretation]:
VISCOUNT ELIRANK: My Lords, I beg to move my last Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 41, at end insert:
"'Qualified accountant'" means a member of one or more of the following bodies namely:—
The Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales;
The Society of Incorporated Accountants and Auditors;
The Society of Accountants in Edinburgh;
The Institute of Accountants and Actuaries in Glasgow.
The Society of Accountants in Aberdeen;
The London Association of Certified Accountants Limited;
The Corporation of Accountants Limited."—(Viscount Elibank.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.

TEACHERS (SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD IRWIN: My Lords, this is a small Bill, and, I hope, entirely non-controversial. It is, however, a little technical, and therefore, perhaps, you would like me to give a word of explanation of its purpose. The main object of it is clear enough—namely, that where circumstances render it expedient it is designed to facilitate the employment of British teachers in schools in a foreign country. Your Lordships will be aware that the Teachers Superannuation Act, 1925, provided for the payment of superannuation allowances and gratuities in respect of teaching services in England and Wales, by payments made out of moneys provided by Parliament, but the
988
contributions that are required from teachers and employers which go to the Exchequer are calculated to be sufficient to support the benefits payable in respect of the periods of service to which the contributions relate.
By the 1925 Act a period of absence from service was allowed to count for benefit if the teacher paid a double contribution—namely, his own and that of the employer. The maximum period which was allowed was one year, normally, but that was extended to four years if the teacher was absent on teaching service in any part of His Majesty's Dominions abroad. That extension to four years originally granted to absence in any part of His Majesty's Dominions overseas was applied by the Superannuation Act of 1928 to service in a foreign country, in a school that was maintained primarily for the education of the children of British subjects, and it is now proposed in the present Bill that the four years extension should also be applied to service in a foreign country in a school in which, for whatever reason, it is expedient to facilitate the employment of British teachers. Your Lordships will, I have no doubt, readily recognise that if British teachers are to be employed at 'all in such cases, it is desirable that as good British teachers as possible should be employed, and that they should be under no prejudice in consequence of rendering that kind of service.
It is, perhaps, worth mentioning that at the present moment in Egyptian schools there are some 200 British subjects employed, and they are at present employed only on short-term contracts. They are not eligible for Egyptian pensions, and therefore are under some disadvantage. From the point of view of the teachers themselves the proposals of the Bill would be a considerable improvement, since they would, under it, be able to remain in Egypt for four years instead of merely the one year under which, at present, they are entitled to maintain their rights; and from the point of view of the broad interests of this country I think, as I have already suggested, that the change may be expected to attract better qualified British teachers to apply for such appointments. Accordingly, Clause 1 of the Bill re-enacts the Act of 1928, with the further extension that is now proposed. Clause 2 makes the neces-

989
sary application to Scotland, and Clause 3 (2) formally repeals the Act of 1928 in order to avoid the very obvious inconvenience of having upon the Statute-book two Acts which make very similar amendments in the original Act of 1925. The Bill will, of course, result in some increase of allowances and gratuities paid from the Exchequer to teachers, and for this reason it was necessary to get a formal Money Resolution in another place in connection with the Bill. But it is expected that the contributions to be paid by teachers in respect of this period of absence on foreign service will be suffi3ient to counter-balance the increase in the payment of pensions and gratuities, aid that accordingly no additional charge will fall under that head on the Treasury. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Irwin.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

FALSE OATHS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.
SOLICITORS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.