§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Irwin.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly:
§ [The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:
§ Contributions by rubber manufacturers and application thereof.
§ 1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, a contribution at the rate for the time being applicable under this Act shall be paid to the Research Association of British Rubber Manufacturers (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the Association") by every manufacturer in respect of all rubber of a description specified in the first column of the First Schedule to this Act, which is delivered to him on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, whether in pursuance of a contract of sale or otherwise:
§ Provided that, if a manufacturer proves that a contribution has already been paid under this Act in respect of any rubber so delivered to him, no contribution shall be payable by him in respect of that rubber.
§ (2) The contribution aforesaid shall be payable by the manufacturer—
- (a) in the case of rubber delivered to him in pursuance of a contract of sale whereunder the price of the rubber is payable by him on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, on the date on which the price is so payable; and
- (b) in the case of rubber delivered to him in pursuance of a contract of sale whereunder the price of the rubber is payable by him before the said first day of July, or in the ease of rubber delivered to him otherwise than in pursuance of a contract of sale, on the date on which the rubber is delivered to him;
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved, in the proviso in subsection (1), before the first "contribution," to insert "full." The noble Viscount said: This and the third Amendment on the Paper standing in my name are interdependent. It seems to me unfair that a manufacturer who has paid part of his contribution should, owing perhaps to an oversight or negligence on the part of an employee, be held liable for the whole amount, without taking into consideration that some part has already been paid. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, at end, insert ("full").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (LORD IRWIN)As I understand the Amendment of my noble friend, it is designed to give credit to a manufacturer of rubber for any contribution paid to the Association before the coming into force of the Act.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEThe noble Lord will pardon me for interrupting, but that is the next Amendment on the Paper. The Amendment I am now moving is to provide for the fact that if a part of the contribution has been paid no allowance is made for that, although it may have been owing to oversight. As the Bill stands the whole amount of the contribution can be claimed, notwithstanding that part has been paid.
§ LORD IRWINIf the purpose of the Amendment is merely to secure that a manufacturer should be protected from paying twice through an oversight, it seems to be reasonable, and although the, point has not been considered I will accept the Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI beg to thank the noble Lord.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved, in the proviso in subsection (1), after "Act," to insert "or under the voluntary scheme in force before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three." The noble Viscount said: It seems a little unjust to my mind that a contribution paid by a manufacturer under a voluntary 911 scheme in force before the 1st of July should not be taken into account.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, after ("Act") insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD IRWINI think what I was proposing to say on my noble friend's first Amendment is to the point in regard to this Amendment, because this Amendment is designed to give credit to a manufacturer of rubber for any voluntary contributions that may have been made by him before July 1, 1933. I think my noble friend is proceeding on the assumption that the Research Association is at present being financed by manufacturers by means of such voluntary contributions. But that is a misconception. Up till December 31 last the Association was in enjoyment of an income made up from three sources—firstly, the annual membership subscription payable by the original members on the basis of their capitalization; secondly, voluntary contributions from later members; and, finally, by grants from the Research Department. But since July 1, 1933, I am informed the income from all three sources has ceased, and therefore if the Bill comes into operation on July 1, 1933, no manufacturer will be in the position of having made any contributions during 1933. In those circumstances perhaps my noble friend will not think fit to press the Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEThe information which the noble Lord has given to us was not in my possession when I put the Amendment on the Paper, and therefore I beg leave to withdraw.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved to add to the proviso in subsection (1) "or in the case of a partial contribution the balance only of the contribution shall be payable by him." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment is consequential on the first Amendment, which was agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD IRWINI am afraid I do not appreciate my noble friend's remark, but if he tells me that the Amendment is consequential I will accept it on the 912 understanding that if there is any other point in it which was not brought to my attention, steps will be taken to deal with it on the Report stage.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved, towards the end of subsection (2), after "contribution," to insert "or the balance thereof." The noble Viscount said: This is consequential.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 16, after ("contribution") insert ("or the balance thereof").—(Viscount Bertie, of Thame.)
§ LORD IRWINI will accept this Amendment on the same understanding—namely, that I should re-examine it between now and the Report stage and see whether the noble Viscount is right and that this Amendment is entirely consequential.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 2 agreed to.
§ Clause 3:
§ Appointment and duties of collector, and audit of accounts.
§ (3) All contributions payable to the Assocition under this Act shall be paid to and received by the collector and paid by him into a fund under his control to be called "the Rubber Industry Research Fund," and all contributions repayable under this Act shall be paid by the collector out of that fund.
§ (4) The collector shall—
- (a) cause a proper account to be kept of the moneys paid into and out of the said fund; and
- (b) from time to time, when required by the Association, transmit to the Association all moneys for the time being standing to the credit of the fund; and
§
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved, in subsection (3), after "Research Fund," to insert "to be applied exclusively for the purposes of research for the benefit of the industry." The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to meet a complaint in a memorandum which was circulated to your Lordships by certain persons interested in this industry. This memorandum states:
The Bill will provide that contributions payable thereunder are to be used for the objects for which the Association was established as set out in their Memorandum of
913
Association. Those objects are so multifarious and include so many purposes entirely foreign to research that there can be no guarantee that the funds would be applied to research work.
I hope this Amendment will meet that point, and that my noble friend will accept it.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, after ("Fund") insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
§ LORD IRWINI hope that my noble friend will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. The objects, as he says, for which the money received by the Association may be used are defined in Clause 1 (4) as being "the objects for which the Association was established us set out in its Memorandum of Association," and those objects are, as he truly observes, somewhat wider than the mere word "research," but at the same time they are all strictly relevant to the general object that the Bill is concerned to promote. They deal, for instance, with such matters as these: to promote research in connection with the rubber manufacturing industry, and for that purpose to maintain the necessary staff and premises; to improve the education of persons connected with the industry by the offering of scholarships or bursaries; to collect and disseminate information relative to the industry; to encourage the discovery and investigation of inventions and to acquire such inventions. I think therefore the noble Lord will see that it is rather wider than the mere word "research," and I may add that the objects that are set out in the Memorandum of Association are based upon the standard form prepared by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and are similar to those adopted by the numerous research associations formed by other industries. As far as I am aware, they have never been questioned during the period of operation of the present Association.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI do not press the Amendment, but I should not think it is beyond the ingenuity of my noble friend's advisers if my noble friend would ask them to bring up something on Report to cover the point raised in the clause of the memorandum which I read out.
§ Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
914§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEmoved in subsection (4), at the end of paragraph (b), to insert "or such part thereof as may be required by the Association." The noble Viscount said: The object of the Amendment is to prevent a game of battledore and shuttlecock between the collector and the Association for the funds of the Association.
§ LORD IRWINI should be prepared to accept the Amendment if my noble friend would move it with the substitution of the word "specified" for the word "required." It is a practical point. I am advised that "required" is somewhat ambiguous in the sense that it might carry the meaning of "asked for" or "needed," and the word "specified" is thought to be more precise.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI quite appreciate the point which my noble friend makes, and I will move the Amendment in the form he suggests.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 4, after ("Fund") insert, ("or such part thereof as may be specified by the Association").—(Viscount Bertie of Theme.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.
§ Clause 7 [Interpretation]:
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEThere is a question of which I have given private notice to my noble friend with regard to this clause. In the memorandum I have already referred to, and whose grammar is not quite so good as that of the noble Lord, they give a definition of a manufacturer. What they say is that the definition of a manufacturer in the Bill is so wide that it would include, and make subject to the tax, all sorts of traders who are not necessarily rubber manufacturers in the ordinary sense; for example, boot manufacturers using crepe soles, dental surgeons, leather workers, garment makers, and numerous others. To make people of this description liable to a compulsory levy would be virtually impossible, they say, and, if enforced, would cause wide discontent. I would ask my noble friend to go to his advisers again, and get something on Report to cover the complaint made.
§ LORD IRWINMy noble friend was good enough to give me notice that he 915 was raising these technical points, and I have had an opportunity of consulting those who are well skilled in these matters, but before telling the House what they said to me allow me to thank the noble Viscount for his kindly reference to my grammatical talent. I am advised that with regard to the case made, as he says, in paragraph 23 of the Petition against the Bill, the objection is really based on a misunderstanding of the Bill. He will see that, according to Clause 1, contributions are payable only in respect of rubber of a description specified in the First Schedule, and if noble Lords will turn to the First Schedule they will see that it deals with rubber, uncompounded and unvulcanised, not forming part of a completely or partly manufactured article. In other words, I am advised that the materials there specified are, with the exception of crepe rubber, of a type which cannot be used except after further treatment, and it may interest your Lordships to know that this treatment is one of mastication in a heavy digesting apparatus. Therefore raw rubber of the kind described is only useful to people who are so equipped with heavy digesting apparatus, and small traders obviously have no use for such material. It is, therefore. I think, clear that rubber of the specified description will be delivered only to actual rubber manufacturers from whom a contribution can properly be collected.
There is the case that arises out of the exception to which I alluded—the exception of crepe rubber. It is the case that large boot manufacturers buying crepe rubber in bulk will, of course, be liable for contributions, and inasmuch as they are engaged in converting crude rubber into a manufactured article, there seems no legitimate reason why they should not be so liable. Garment makers manufacturing macintoshes, etc., from rubberised fabric and adhesive are not liable to contributions. The manufacturer of the rubberised fabric will clearly be so liable. My noble friend referred to dental surgeons. The material used by dental surgeons is a form of compounded rubber which does not fall within the definition in the First Schedule. Again, leather workers who use rubber adhesives will not be liable to contributions, as the adhesives are already a manufactured form of rubber. I hope I have done something to allay the noble Viscount's 916 anxiety, and if there is any further information he desires I shall be very glad to obtain it for him, but I hope I have made the general principle of the Bill clear.
§ VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAMEI am much obliged to my noble friend for his answer, which seems to be all that it ought to be.
§ On Question, Clause 7 agreed to.
§ Remaining clause agreed to.
§ Schedules agreed to.