Lords Sitting of 16 May 1933

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
EXCHANGE EQUALISATION ACCOUNT BILL.
Brought from the Commons endorsed with a Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911, read 1a, and to be printed.
SOLICITORS BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la, and to be printed.
SUMMARY JURISDICTION (APPEALS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la, and to be printed.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons to acquaint the House that they concur with their Lordships in their Resolution of May 9, that it is expedient that the Local Government Bill be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.
DURHAM CORPORATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
SIDMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDERS (HEREFORD AND WEST KENT MAIN SEWER AGE DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 2a(according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDERS (TEES VALLEY WATER BOARD AND WEST MON MOUTHSHIRE OMNIBUS BOARD) BILL.
Read 2a(according to Order).
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PRO VISIONAL ORDER (SHEFFIELD) BILL.
Read 2a(according to Order).

RUBBER INDUSTRY BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Irwin.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Contributions by rubber manufacturers and application thereof.
1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, a contribution at the rate for the time being applicable under this Act shall be paid to the Research Association of British Rubber Manufacturers (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the Association") by every manufacturer in respect of all rubber of a description specified in the first column of the First Schedule to this Act, which is delivered to him on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, whether in pursuance of a contract of sale or otherwise:
Provided that, if a manufacturer proves that a contribution has already been paid under this Act in respect of any rubber so delivered to him, no contribution shall be payable by him in respect of that rubber.
(2) The contribution aforesaid shall be payable by the manufacturer—

(a) in the case of rubber delivered to him in pursuance of a contract of sale whereunder the price of the rubber is payable by him on or after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, on the date on which the price is so payable; and

(b) in the case of rubber delivered to him in pursuance of a contract of sale whereunder the price of the rubber is payable by him before the said first day of July, or in the ease of rubber delivered to him otherwise than in pursuance of a contract of sale, on the date on which the rubber is delivered to him;

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and in every case the contribution shall be recoverable by the Association as a. simple contract debt from the manufacturer.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), before the first "contribution," to insert "full." The noble Viscount said: This and the third Amendment on the Paper standing in my name are interdependent. It seems to me unfair that a manufacturer who has paid part of his contribution should, owing perhaps to an oversight or negligence on the part of an employee, be held liable for the whole amount, without taking into consideration that some part has already been paid. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 16, at end, insert ("full").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (LORD IRWIN): As I understand the Amendment of my noble friend, it is designed to give credit to a manufacturer of rubber for any contribution paid to the Association before the coming into force of the Act.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The noble Lord will pardon me for interrupting, but that is the next Amendment on the Paper. The Amendment I am now moving is to provide for the fact that if a part of the contribution has been paid no allowance is made for that, although it may have been owing to oversight. As the Bill stands the whole amount of the contribution can be claimed, notwithstanding that part has been paid.
LORD IRWIN: If the purpose of the Amendment is merely to secure that a manufacturer should be protected from paying twice through an oversight, it seems to be reasonable, and although the, point has not been considered I will accept the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I beg to thank the noble Lord.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the proviso in subsection (1), after "Act," to insert "or under the voluntary scheme in force before the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three." The noble Viscount said: It seems a little unjust to my mind that a contribution paid by a manufacturer under a voluntary

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scheme in force before the 1st of July should not be taken into account.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 17, after ("Act") insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD IRWIN: I think what I was proposing to say on my noble friend's first Amendment is to the point in regard to this Amendment, because this Amendment is designed to give credit to a manufacturer of rubber for any voluntary contributions that may have been made by him before July 1, 1933. I think my noble friend is proceeding on the assumption that the Research Association is at present being financed by manufacturers by means of such voluntary contributions. But that is a misconception. Up till December 31 last the Association was in enjoyment of an income made up from three sources—firstly, the annual membership subscription payable by the original members on the basis of their capitalization; secondly, voluntary contributions from later members; and, finally, by grants from the Research Department. But since July 1, 1933, I am informed the income from all three sources has ceased, and therefore if the Bill comes into operation on July 1, 1933, no manufacturer will be in the position of having made any contributions during 1933. In those circumstances perhaps my noble friend will not think fit to press the Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The information which the noble Lord has given to us was not in my possession when I put the Amendment on the Paper, and therefore I beg leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved to add to the proviso in subsection (1) "or in the case of a partial contribution the balance only of the contribution shall be payable by him." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment is consequential on the first Amendment, which was agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 19, at end insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD IRWIN: I am afraid I do not appreciate my noble friend's remark, but if he tells me that the Amendment is consequential I will accept it on the
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understanding that if there is any other point in it which was not brought to my attention, steps will be taken to deal with it on the Report stage.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, towards the end of subsection (2), after "contribution," to insert "or the balance thereof." The noble Viscount said: This is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 16, after ("contribution") insert ("or the balance thereof").—(Viscount Bertie, of Thame.)
LORD IRWIN: I will accept this Amendment on the same understanding—namely, that I should re-examine it between now and the Report stage and see whether the noble Viscount is right and that this Amendment is entirely consequential.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
Appointment and duties of collector, and audit of accounts.
(3) All contributions payable to the Assocition under this Act shall be paid to and received by the collector and paid by him into a fund under his control to be called "the Rubber Industry Research Fund," and all contributions repayable under this Act shall be paid by the collector out of that fund.
(4) The collector shall—

(a) cause a proper account to be kept of the moneys paid into and out of the said fund; and

(b) from time to time, when required by the Association, transmit to the Association all moneys for the time being standing to the credit of the fund; and

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (3), after "Research Fund," to insert "to be applied exclusively for the purposes of research for the benefit of the industry." The noble Viscount said: The object of this Amendment is to meet a complaint in a memorandum which was circulated to your Lordships by certain persons interested in this industry. This memorandum states:
"The Bill will provide that contributions payable thereunder are to be used for the objects for which the Association was established as set out in their Memorandum of

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Association. Those objects are so multifarious and include so many purposes entirely foreign to research that there can be no guarantee that the funds would be applied to research work."
I hope this Amendment will meet that point, and that my noble friend will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 37, after ("Fund") insert the said words.—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
LORD IRWIN: I hope that my noble friend will not think it necessary to press this Amendment. The objects, as he says, for which the money received by the Association may be used are defined in Clause 1 (4) as being "the objects for which the Association was established us set out in its Memorandum of Association," and those objects are, as he truly observes, somewhat wider than the mere word "research," but at the same time they are all strictly relevant to the general object that the Bill is concerned to promote. They deal, for instance, with such matters as these: to promote research in connection with the rubber manufacturing industry, and for that purpose to maintain the necessary staff and premises; to improve the education of persons connected with the industry by the offering of scholarships or bursaries; to collect and disseminate information relative to the industry; to encourage the discovery and investigation of inventions and to acquire such inventions. I think therefore the noble Lord will see that it is rather wider than the mere word "research," and I may add that the objects that are set out in the Memorandum of Association are based upon the standard form prepared by the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research, and are similar to those adopted by the numerous research associations formed by other industries. As far as I am aware, they have never been questioned during the period of operation of the present Association.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I do not press the Amendment, but I should not think it is beyond the ingenuity of my noble friend's advisers if my noble friend would ask them to bring up something on Report to cover the point raised in the clause of the memorandum which I read out.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved in subsection (4), at the end of paragraph (b), to insert "or such part thereof as may be required by the Association." The noble Viscount said: The object of the Amendment is to prevent a game of battledore and shuttlecock between the collector and the Association for the funds of the Association.
LORD IRWIN: I should be prepared to accept the Amendment if my noble friend would move it with the substitution of the word "specified" for the word "required." It is a practical point. I am advised that "required" is somewhat ambiguous in the sense that it might carry the meaning of "asked for" or "needed," and the word "specified" is thought to be more precise.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I quite appreciate the point which my noble friend makes, and I will move the Amendment in the form he suggests.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 4, after ("Fund") insert, ("or such part thereof as may be specified by the Association").—(Viscount Bertie of Theme.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 4 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7 [Interpretation]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: There is a question of which I have given private notice to my noble friend with regard to this clause. In the memorandum I have already referred to, and whose grammar is not quite so good as that of the noble Lord, they give a definition of a manufacturer. What they say is that the definition of a manufacturer in the Bill is so wide that it would include, and make subject to the tax, all sorts of traders who are not necessarily rubber manufacturers in the ordinary sense; for example, boot manufacturers using crepe soles, dental surgeons, leather workers, garment makers, and numerous others. To make people of this description liable to a compulsory levy would be virtually impossible, they say, and, if enforced, would cause wide discontent. I would ask my noble friend to go to his advisers again, and get something on Report to cover the complaint made.
LORD IRWIN: My noble friend was good enough to give me notice that he

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was raising these technical points, and I have had an opportunity of consulting those who are well skilled in these matters, but before telling the House what they said to me allow me to thank the noble Viscount for his kindly reference to my grammatical talent. I am advised that with regard to the case made, as he says, in paragraph 23 of the Petition against the Bill, the objection is really based on a misunderstanding of the Bill. He will see that, according to Clause 1, contributions are payable only in respect of rubber of a description specified in the First Schedule, and if noble Lords will turn to the First Schedule they will see that it deals with rubber, uncompounded and unvulcanised, not forming part of a completely or partly manufactured article. In other words, I am advised that the materials there specified are, with the exception of crepe rubber, of a type which cannot be used except after further treatment, and it may interest your Lordships to know that this treatment is one of mastication in a heavy digesting apparatus. Therefore raw rubber of the kind described is only useful to people who are so equipped with heavy digesting apparatus, and small traders obviously have no use for such material. It is, therefore. I think, clear that rubber of the specified description will be delivered only to actual rubber manufacturers from whom a contribution can properly be collected.
There is the case that arises out of the exception to which I alluded—the exception of crepe rubber. It is the case that large boot manufacturers buying crepe rubber in bulk will, of course, be liable for contributions, and inasmuch as they are engaged in converting crude rubber into a manufactured article, there seems no legitimate reason why they should not be so liable. Garment makers manufacturing macintoshes, etc., from rubberised fabric and adhesive are not liable to contributions. The manufacturer of the rubberised fabric will clearly be so liable. My noble friend referred to dental surgeons. The material used by dental surgeons is a form of compounded rubber which does not fall within the definition in the First Schedule. Again, leather workers who use rubber adhesives will not be liable to contributions, as the adhesives are already a manufactured form of rubber. I hope I have done something to allay the noble Viscount's
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anxiety, and if there is any further information he desires I shall be very glad to obtain it for him, but I hope I have made the general principle of the Bill clear.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I am much obliged to my noble friend for his answer, which seems to be all that it ought to be.
On Question, Clause 7 agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Schedules agreed to.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA (AMEND MENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Irwin.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Amendment of provisions of Government of India Act as to duration of Governors' Legislative Councils.
1. Proviso (b) to subsection (1) of Section seventy-two B of the Government of India Act, which proviso enacts that the period of three years during which a Governor's Legislative Council is to continue to exercise its functions may in special circumstances be extended by the Governor for a period not exceeding one year shall have effect as if the words "for a period not exceeding one year" were omitted therefrom.
LORD PONSONRY OF SHULBREDE LORD PONSONRY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out "the words for a period not exceeding one year were omitted therefrom" and insert "for the words one year there were substituted the words two years'." The noble Lord said: When this Bill was before your Lordships' House on Second Reading I intimated that the Opposition were supporting the principle underlying the measure, and I made a suggestion with regard to a time limit being inserted in the Bill. My noble friend who is in charge of the Bill was good enough to say he would consider the suggestion, which could be more appropriately raised on the Committee stage. It appears to us that to give an indefinite power to the Governors such as the Viceroy himself possesses would not be desirable in this Bill, and that some

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period should be placed in it at which this power would no longer hold good. I suggested that perhaps some period might be chosen when the Government could foresee whether the proposals that are now being discussed by the Joint Select Committee would eventually be promulgated in a Constitution, but I want to put before the noble Lord in charge of the Bill a further consideration.
We, all of us—or perhaps I ought to say the majority of us—both expect and lope that the labours of the Joint Select Committee will result in the draft of a Constitution for India, and that will be put into a Bill which will be submitted to both Houses of Parliament, and when it has been passed by those Houses and has become an Act it will then be promulgated as a Constitution for the Indian Empire. Although that may be our hope and indeed our expectation, we must not leave out of account the fact that there is a long and arduous road to be traversed before that consummation is reached, and it is not quite outside the bounds of possibility that there may be some form of difficulty which proves to be insuperable. Should the negotiations conceivably break down and no Constitution be formulated, the Provincial Governors would, according to this Bill, be left with the uncontrolled and indefinite discretion of postponing elections sine die. That appears to us to be undesirable. I do not tie myself down to the time limit that is inserted in this Amendment, and I would be prepared to accept two or three years, but I think it is quite clear, owing to the uncertainty of the situation before us, that some time limit ought to be placed in the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out from ("if") to end of clause and insert ("for the words 'one year' there were substituted the words 'two years'").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
LORD IRWIN: I think that the noble Lord's Amendment is clearly one that arouses, as he said, a sense that in certain eventualities it would be improper to leave Governors in the possession of the same right of indefinitely postponing meetings of their Councils as is enjoyed by the Governor-General in relation to the Central Legislature. Without arguing the point with him as to the justify-
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cation or otherwise of such distinction of treatment between the Provinces and the Centre, I think it is true to say that his argument really depends upon the possibility, which he clearly has in mind, that certain circumstances might arise making it impossible for Parliament to pass a constitutional measure dealing with Indian affairs at all in the course of the next two, three or four years. That, I think, is the basis of his argument, and, therefore, he desires the House and the country to protect themselves against the consequential damage, as he would think, arising from that state of affairs if you passed this Bill without a time limit, in that in those circumstances the Governor would have been endowed with that indefinite power of postponement.
I frankly cannot regard the noble Lord's apprehensions on that score as well founded. We all are bound to speak at this date with a complete reserve and the most complete discretion as to what may be the constitutional action that in due time Parliament may see fit to take after these matters have been fully investigated, but I cannot conceive that it is at all likely—I might even use stronger language, I think—whether the period be one year or two or three years, that Parliament, whatever Government be in power, will not be under the necessity of taking some action with regard to the constitutional matters that have been the subject of debate now for the last three or four years. Therefore, while I would not disagree with the abstract position that the noble Lord states, that it would be wrong, or that it might be wrong, to endow all Governors with this indefinite power, yet I am bound to point out to him that I cannot conceive of circumstances in which this Bill will be other than an interim Bill to bridge the gap until the main Constitution Bill, whatever its character, to which we look forward has reached the Statute Book.
I would point out to the noble Lord, although I take note of what he said as to his elasticity in the matter of time, that in point of fact his Amendment, as it stands, would do very little good. He will no doubt appreciate that the effect of his Amendment would be to endow the Governor with a two-year limit instead of a one-year limit. Of his total new two-year power limit, one year has already gone, and, therefore, all that he

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does in the case of Bengal is to give the Governor there one extra year. I do not make a great deal of that, because the noble Lord has said he does not attach great importance to it himself. What I do want to put to him, which I think is of greater substance, is this. There is a great difficulty in putting a time limit at all, whether short or long, to this interim measure. If you make the time limit too short you will arouse the criticism from some quarters that you are prejudging the pace at which Parliament will act, and that it is unreasonable to expect the Joint Select Committee to discharge its work with sufficient celerity, that Parliament will not have a reasonable opportunity for informing itself, and so on. If, on the other hand, you make the time limit longer, you will at once arouse great apprehension and suspicions in the minds of Indians that Parliament intends to proceed with these grave matters in a fashion somewhat dilatory. Therefore, I think, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for India with whom I discussed it also is of the opinion, that it is very difficult to dissociate from any tune limit the noble Lord might ask us to insert in the Bill a quality that one might describe as tendentious, and that would lead to misunderstanding and difficulty.
Therefore, having regard to the fact that the Bill is one purely to deal with a temporary and interim period, and having regard to the fact that in my view—and I think it will be the general view of your Lordships—Parliament is bound, in whatever sense, to deal with the Indian constitutional position in the course of the next year or two, I hope that my noble friend will not feel it necessary to press the Amendment, for the reason that this Bill will bridge the gap, be the gap short or long, and that when, after that gap, Parliament comes to deal with the general question, it will no doubt find it necessary to regulate these, among other matters. If it does not do so, then I suggest would be the occasion for my noble friend to secure the introduction of words into the Bill in the sense in which he might desire.
THE MARQUESS OF READING: After listening to the noble Lord who proposed the Amendment I thought there was a good deal of substance in the plea that he was putting forward to your Lordships which, in effect, amounted to this.
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If the Bill stands as it is now the effect might be, and would be if it is not altered later, that you would be giving to a Governor powers which hitherto he has not possessed which would put him in the same position as the Governor-General with regard to the Central Legislature. I do, however, feel there is great force in what fell from the noble Lord, Lord Irwin, in the last part of his observations. It is very difficult to fix a time which will not seem to indicate to Indians, either one way or the other, what the Government thinks or Parliament thinks will be the time required.
I would suggest to the noble Lord who moved the Amendment that, having regard to what has been said, and particularly to the statement that the Bill is not intended to give any general power of a permanent kind but merely to cover an interim period, that the matter should be left as it is. If at a later stage we find that greater time is required, or that the constitutional effort does not march forward as fast as was suggested, or does not proceed at all as suggested, it will be necessary to make a change. I understand the Government have that in mind. I understand that quite definitely the Government are not intending to make a permanent change; therefore it comes down to a very small point between us. I confess, after listening to the argument, that I think my noble friend Lord Irwin has the better of it in stating that to put a term of years into this Bill will be thought to be tendentious. I am in agreement, in principle, with what the noble Lord who moved the Amendment has put upon the Paper, but I would suggest we should leave it at that. I understand quite definitely that this is not intended to be permanent, and if a longer time elapses than is thought necessary then a new Bill would have to be introduced.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I am very much obliged to my noble friend for the consideration that he has given to this Amendment, and I was very glad to hear the optimistic tone which he adopted with regard to the prospects in the future in connection with the possible new Constitution for the Indian Empire. I quite agree with what he says about the danger in regard to a time limit of its being tendentious, which was also emphasised by the noble and learned

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Marquess. My original idea when I mentioned this point on Second Reading was that words should be put in to the effect that it should be for such time until the new Constitution had been promulgated. That would get rid of any particular period. But as we have had from the noble Lord in charge of the Bill an assurance that the Government do not intend in any circumstances to allow this power to remain in the hands of the Provincial Governors, I think we may be satisfied with that for the present. I therefore beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1. agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.

PROTECTION OF ANIMALS BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned at seven minutes before five o'clock.