Lords Sitting of 15 March 1933

Preamble
The House met at three of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

LONDON PASSENGER TRANSPORT BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, in moving that this House do resolve itself into Committee on this Bill I think, perhaps, it might be well, and your Lordships would desire, that I should say that although there are a large number of Amendments on the Paper those which are put forward in my name, on behalf of the Government, are not, if I may use the expression, of a very formidable character. They are mostly drafting Amendments, which have become necessary by reason of the long period for which the Bill has been in being, and by reason of the period having passed, so that it has become necessary to make Amendments in order to bring the Bill up to date. There are one or two Amendments of substance. One is in connection with the arrangement made with West Ham, and another is in connection with the Traffic Advisory Committee, which will remain in being for some little time. I think I need say no more in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee on the said Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Establishment of London Passenger Transport Board.
1.—(1) For the purposes of this Act there shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, be established a public authority to be called the London Passenger Transport Board (in this Act referred to as "the Board"), consisting of a chairman and six other members from time to time appointed by a body (in this Act referred to as "the Appointing Trustees") consisting of the following persons:—
the Chairman of the London County Council;
a representative of the Advisory Committee (as hereinafter in this Act defined);
the chairman of the Committee of London Clearing Bankers;
the president of the Law Society; and
the president of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales.
The appointments to be made by the Appointing Trustees shall be made after consultation with such persons as they may think fit.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY THE EARL OF HALSBURY had on the Paper Amendments in subsection (1), to leave out "and" ["the President of the Law Society, and"] and, after "Wales," to insert "and in the case of appointments to fill vacancies in the Board at any time after the first constitution of the Board, three members of the Board nominated by the Board for the purpose." The noble Earl said: The Amendment that I move is with regard to the beginning of the whole Bill. Your Lordships are doubtless aware that there are two bodies contemplated to be instituted by this Bill. One is the Passenger Transport Board, always called afterwards "the Board," and that is the Board that will actually carry out the Act. That Board has to be appointed by another body called "the Appointing Trustees," consisting of the Chairman of the London County Council, a representative of the Advisory Committee, the Chairman of the Committee of London Clearing Bankers, the President of the Law Society, and the President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales. It has been thought that it would be very much better, in the interests of harmony on the Board that is going to carry out this Bill, and also having regard to the fact that it is very desirable that there should be a continuity of policy—that does not mean a policy which can never change, but it would be inadvisable that there should be any sudden change—that there should not be appointed to the Appointing Trustees somebody who knew nothing of what the Board of Control was doing.
Therefore my Amendment is that at any time after the first constitution of the. Board three members of the Board, nominated by the Board for the purpose, shall also be members of the Appoint-
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ing Trustees. That would allow them to talk with the other Appointing Trustees, in order to see that there was a continuity of policy running through the whole matter. It is quite true that the Appointing Trustees are allowed to make their appointments after consultation with any such persons as they may think fit, and it may very well be that they would normally consult the Board before appointing anybody else. It is a very good working rule throughout life, when a man tells you his word is as good as his bond, to take his bond. In those circumstances, if we think that the Appointing Trustees probably would consult such persons, why not allow people to sit with them in order to consult with them? It may be—I know not—that the noble Marquess, though sympathetic to my Amendment, may feel that he would like a longer time to consider the matter, and if that is so I should be willing to withdraw the Amendment to-day, but to reserve the right to move it again on the Report stage.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 9, leave out ("and").—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
LORD JESSEL: I really cannot see the necessity for this Amendment. The subsection states:
" The appointments to be made by the Appointing Trustees shall be made after consultation with such persons as they may think fit."
This seems to me to be a mandatory instruction binding the Trustees to follow a certain course. There has been a great deal of discussion in another place over the membership of the body of Appointing Trustees, and it has been agreed after debate that the persons named in the subsection should be the Appointing Trustees. I do not hold very strong opinions on this point, but it does seem to me a mistake to put in a mandatory instruction.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: It is not mandatory.
LORD JESSEL: It is a mandatory instruction. You talk about a bond and therefore they are bound to consult with members of the Board.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: That is not my Amendment at all. My Amendment is that three members of the Board should he appointed to the Appointing Trustees

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after the first constitution of the Board. That leaves five of the Appointing Trustees as against three of the Board, not bound by them at all, but consulting with them and having a majority over them if they want it.
LORD JESSEL: The noble Lord has only made my point more clear. These persons must be members of the Board. There is a great difference between being bound by an Act of Parliament to put three particular persons on the Board and allowing the Appointing Trustees to put on whom they like. I should prefer the Trustees to have a free hand. I hope the Government will resist the Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The effect of this Amendment is that for the purpose of filling vacancies on the Board after the initial appointments three members of the Board should be added to the Appointing Trustees. The Amendment is one which, I think, has the effect of giving an element of continuity to the Board when electing members to fill vacancies. I am not really prepared to resist the Amendment, but I think the noble Earl might allow it to go over to Report, and thus give a longer time for consideration of the matter.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I beg leave to withdraw the Amendment, but I hold myself free to bring it up again on Report.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD JESSEL: Before Clause 1 is put I should like to know whether the question of a salary for members of the Board has been taken into consideration. It is necessary that they should be very good men. They have most arduous and responsible duties before them. I should like to have some statement from the Government as to whether they are going to be paid on the Civil Service scale or upon a commercial scale. There is a great difference between the two. The highest rate in the Civil Service is £3,500, and you cannot get a very good man for that. I should like it to be stated that we are not going to be bound down by the Treasury to the ordinary scales prevailing in the Civil Service.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The matter is dealt with in Clause 4. There it is laid down that':
" There shall be paid to the Chairman and other members of the Board such salaries, or fees, and allowances for expenses as the Minister after consultation with the Appointing Trustees and with the consent of the Treasury may determine."
At this moment I am not in a position to say more than the Bill rays down.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: Though, naturally, the noble Marquess is not likely to bind himself, I take it that the salary will not be on the Civil Service scale. When I had the appointment of the Central Electricity Board the Treasury took the quite liberal view that you had to pay very substantial salaries, especially for the Chairman, in order to get the best men for an enterprise of this sort. If you want the best men you must pay for them.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Transfer to Board of passenger transport undertakings.
(d) in the case of each of the undertakings specified in Part III of the said Schedule (in this Act referred to as "the local authorities' undertakings") to the whole of the undertaking including all lands, works, and other property, assets (other than moneys representing any fund established by the authority for the redemption of any loan raised by them for the purposes of the transferred undertaking), powers, rights and privileges held or enjoyed in connection therewith or appertaining thereto, other than such lands or buildings as the Board and the local authority concerned may before the appointed day agree to exclude, or in default of agreement as the arbitration tribunal may determine ought to be excluded, from the transfer effected by this section as being lands or buildings which are not being used or are not likely to be required for the purposes of the transferred undertaking; and
(4) Subject to the provisions of this Act, the Board, on the transfer of any undertaking specified in Parts I, II, III or VI of the Second Schedule to this Act—
(b) shall, to the exclusion of the undertakers, be subject to all liabilities and obligations, whether arising by statute or otherwise howsoever, to which the undertakers were subject immediately

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before the appointed day in respect of the undertaking
Provided that—

(iii) no liability or obligation to which the Board is made subject, and no right, power or privilege vested in the Board, by virtue of this section by reason of the transfer to the Board of any undertaking shall be taken to extend to, or apply in respect of, any part of the undertaking of the Board other than so much thereof as represents the transferred undertaking;

(vii) no liability of the tramway and light railway undertaking of the South Metropolitan Electric Tramways and Lighting Company, Limited, in respect of any executed contract or of any loan shall be transferred to the Board;

(xi) the liability of the Middlesex County Council under subsection (2) of Section twenty-five of the County of Middlesex Light Railways Order, 11901, subsection (2) of Section twenty-five of the County of Middlesex Light Railways Order, 1903, and subsection (2) of Section twenty-five of the County of Middlesex (Waltham Cross and Enfield) Light Railways Order, 1906, or under any of the said subsections as incorporated with, or made applicable to, the County of Middlesex Light Railways Orders, 1901 to 1932, shall continue to be and shall be deemed always to have been discharged by the Middlesex County Council as highway authority.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next three Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 6, line 9, leave out from ("of") to ("extend") in line 10 and insert ("Section eighty-one of this Act");
Page 6, line 29, after ("property") insert ("assets,").
Page 7, line 24, leave out from ("used", to ("and") in line 26 and insert ("for the purposes of the transferred undertaking and are not likely to 'be required for those purposes").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after "undertaking," at the end of paragraph (d) in subsection (2), to insert
" or, in the case of the undertaking of the mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the County Borough of West Ham, other than the lands or buildings delineated in red on the maps lettered A," B 'and' 0 'signed by the Treasury Solicitor and by the borough surveyor of the said county borough and deposited with the Ministry of Transport."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment and subsequent Amendments give effect to an arrangement, which had been agreed in principle with the Corporation of the County Borough of West Ham in the summer of 1931, whereby the Corporation will receive as consideration for the transfer of its tramway undertaking to the Board "L.A." Transport Stock to the nominal amount of £281,036, that being the estimated amount of the outstanding debt on the tram way undertaking as at 31st March, 1933, less a sum of £10,077 representing the outstanding debt at that date on certain minor properties which are not now being used for the purposes of the tramway undertaking and have therefore been excluded from the transfer. The excluded properties are shown on the maps referred to in this Amendment. The settlement with the Corporation of West Ham is on the same basis as those with the London County Council and the County Councils of Middlesex and Hertford, and has been arrived at after consultation with Sir William McLintock, who is satisfied that the terms are fair and reasonable to the Corporation and to the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 26, after ("undertaking") insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The The next is a drafting Amendment, which I understand the noble Marquess accepts.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 22, leave out ("claim") and insert ("claims").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (4) (b), after "all," to insert "duties." The noble Viscount said: In the Land Drainage Bill the word "obligations" appeared in some clauses without "duties" and "duties" in other clauses without "obligations," and when I moved Amendments to regularise the matter the noble Earl, Lord De La Warr, accepted them without any argument. In this clause "duties" is not included, but it appears in Clause 97, page 130, line 12, and I move the Amendment for the purpose of finding

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out whether the noble Marquess is prepared to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 9 line 28, after ("all") insert ("duties I').—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am given to understand that this Amend-racist is unnecessary. The word "obligations," which already appears in the context, is used throughout as including "duties."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I cannot quite understand that as it was accepted in the case of the Land Drainage Bill. If it were necessary in that Bill it is necessary in this Bill also.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (4) (b) (iii), to leave out "is" and insert "are." The noble Viscount said: I do not quite know what to do about this Amendment because yesterday, when I moved a similar Amendment on the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill, this is what tie noble Earl, the Earl of Lucan, said:
" Consultation has been made of various works on the subject and, although there is no right or wrong in treating a noun of multitude as either singular or plural, still it has been agreed that in future the better course would be to treat these nouns as being of the singular number."
Well, if that is the case and "Board" is going to be singular, it will require over 80 Amendments, whereas if you put it in the plural it will require only 7. I am entirely in the hands of my noble friend as to which he likes the better, but I warn him it may necessitate 80 Amendments on Report:
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 13, leave out ("is") and insert ("are").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I find myself in grave difficulty with so well-known a purist as my noble friend, but I am given to understand by those who advise me and who have taken considerable trouble in regard to these Amendments, that this Amendment should be rejected.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: make my noble friend this offer, that he should agree to put the matter to the arbitration of the Minister of Education.
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If he will accept that I am willing to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (4) (b) vii, to leave out "any executed contract or of any loan," and insert "work done, services. rendered, goods delivered or money borrowed before the appointed day." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment relates only to the South Metropolitan Electric Tramways and Lighting Company's undertaking and is designed to express more clearly the intended meaning of the term "executed contract," which was thought to be obscure. The company will remain liable in these cases.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 1, leave out from the first ("of") to ("shall") in line 2 and insert ("work done, services rendered, goods delivered or money borrowed before the appointed day").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 9 leave out ("and").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 12, after ("council") insert ("or in the case of the mayor, alderman and burgesses of the County Borough of West Ham").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 13, after ("council") insert ("or of that corporation").
line 32, leave out ("and").— (The Marquess of Londonderry)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add to the last paragraph:
" and (xii) all rights, powers and privileges vested in or purporting to be vested in, and all liabilities and obligations imposed on or purporting to be imposed on the undertakers by virtue of any private or local Act which receives the Royal Assent in the same Session of Parliament as this Act shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed in so far as they relate to undertakings transferred to the Board by this Act to have been vested in or imposed on the under-

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takers immediately before the appointed day."
The noble Marquess said: There are several Private Bills before Parliament which, if passed, will confer rights or impose obligations on the owners of undertakings to be transferred to the Board under this Bill. This Amendment is required to ensure that the Board is put in the place of the existing owners for the purpose of other legislation passed during this Session.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 6, at end insert the said paragraph.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6:
Provisions relating to Associated Equipment Company, Limited.
6.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no rights or liabilities arising by virtue of any contract between the Associated Equipment Company (in this section referred to as the "Equipment Company") and any of the undertakers specified in Part I of the Second Schedule to this Act shall be transferred to the Board by this Act and as from the appointed clay any such contract as aforesaid shall he discharged.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), after "Associated Equipment Company" to insert "Limited." The noble Marquess said - This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 9, after ("Company") insert ("Limited").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:
" (5) For the purpose of this section the appointed day means the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three."
The noble Marquess said: In moving this Amendment I would say to your Lordships that the "appointed day," referred to in line 16 on page 12, is not clearly defined and the date which will, if a later Amendment is accepted, be the date of the transfer of the Underground undertakings to the Board—namely, the 1st of July next, is substituted by this Amendment as the proper day as to which the existing contracts between the Underground company whose undertakings will be transferred and the
1104
Associated Equipment Company whose undertakings will not be transferred. As this is the first of a number of Amendments which are designed to alter the operative date under the Bill, or which are consequential on such alterations, it may be desirable on this point to explain briefly the position. In the Bill as introduced into your Lordships' House the date for the transfer of the company-owned undertakings is the 1st of July, 1933, and that of the local authority owned undertakings the 1st of April, 1933. These dates will be found in Clause 105, on pages 132 and 133 of the Bill. The operation of the other provisions of the Bill is fixed in relation to these dates. It was of course recognised that some postponement of these dates would be necessary, but it was decided to defer making the large number of Amendments necessary until the approximate date of the passing of the Bill into law could be gauged with reasonable certainty.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 4, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7 [Consideration for transfer of undertakings other than local authorities' undertakings]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I understand my noble friend is accepting this and my next Amendment to this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 20, leave out ("have") and insert ("has").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 16, after ("and") insert ("transport").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Consideration for transfer of local authorities' undertakings.
9.—(1) In the case of a local authority's undertaking being an undertaking owned by a local authority specified in the Sixth Schedule to this Act, the Board shall, on the

1105
appointed day, as consideration for the transfer to the Board of that undertaking. issue to the local authority in such manner as is provided by this Act transport stock of the amount and class shown against the name of that authority in the second column of that Schedule; and in the event of any land or buildings which immediately before the appointed day formed part of the transferred undertaking being excluded from the transfer in accordance with the previsions of paragraph (d) of subsection (2) of Section five of this Act the authority shall pay to the Board such sum as may be agreed or in default of agreement as may be determined by the arbitration tribunal to be the equivalent of the outstanding liabilities or obligations of the authority as at the appointed day in respect of so much of any loan raised by them as has been applied for the purposes of the land buildings so excluded.
(3) In the case of any other local authority's undertaking the Board, in order to enable the authority to satisfy their outstanding liabilities or obligations in respect of any loan raised by them for the purposes of the transferred undertaking as and when they fall to be met, shall, as consideration for the transfer to the Board of that under-taking—
(b) where provision has been made for the redemption of the loan by instalments—

(i) if the instalments do not include interest, pay to the authority sums by way of capital payment equal to the amounts of the instalments and also make annual payments (either half-yearly or at some shorter period) equal to the annual amounts of any interest due on the loan; or

(ii) if the instalments are instalments of principal and interest combined, pay to the authority sums by way of capital payment equal to the amounts of principal included in a the instalments and concurrently therewith make annual payments equal to the amounts of interest included in the. instalments:

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), before "the appointed day," to, insert "or as soon as may he after." The noble Marquess said: As it may be inconvenient or even impracticable for the Board to issue the "LA." stock to the local authorities on the appointed day this Amendment is designed to provide for the real date of issue.
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 36, after ("on") insert ("or as soon as may be after").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, fin subsection (1), after "excluded," to insert "either by agreement between the local authority and the Board or in accordance with a determination of the arbitration tribunal." The noble Marquess said: This is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 2, after ("excluded") insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS of LONDONDERRY moved, in proviso (i) in subsection (3) (b), after the first "the," to insert "last complete." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is preparatory to an Amendment to be moved later postponing the date of transfer of local authorities' tramways from April 11 to July 1, 1933. As the transfer will not (if that Amendment is made) take place at the end of a financial year, it is necessary to provide that the redemption period upon which the contributions to the authority's sinking fund are to be reckoned shall be those obtaining during the last complete financial year.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 29, after the first ("the") insert ("last complete").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 29, leave out ("immediately preceding") and insert ("before").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11:
Payments on account to be made by the Board.
11. Pending the confirmation of an agreement as to, or the determination by arbitration of, the consideration to be given by the Board for the transfer of any undertaking, or part of an undertaking, the Board shall from time to time pay to the undertakers —

(a) in the case of a local authority (not being a local authority specified in the Sixth Schedule to this Act or an authority which by this Act is to receive or which has agreed with the Board to accept an

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issue of transport stock), such sums on account of the consideration as may be necessary to enable the authority to meet their obligations in respect of the redemption or repayment of and interest on any loan raised by them for the purposes of the transferred undertaking, after taking into account any moneys then representing any fund established by the local authority for the redemption of the loan and any interest then earned by those moneys; and

VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph (a), to leave out "which" ["authority which"] and insert "who." The noble Viscount said: If the local authority is to be retained in the plural only seven corrections will be necessary, whereas if it is put into the singular seventeen Amendments will have to be made. I may point out perhaps that in some clauses further on local authority is treated as being in the plural, notably in Clause 40, page 60 and page 61. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 1, leave out ("which") and insert ("who").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Might I ask the noble Viscount with regard to "which" and "who," which of the two is singular and which of the two is plural?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: There are three Amendments which appear in the name of my noble friend in Clause 11. I am sorry to have to tell the noble Viscount that I have to resist all these Amendments. The noble Viscount has a long list of Amendments which I have accepted, and I am sorry I was not able to include these in that acceptance.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I withdraw them, but I should like to have the opinion of the Minister of Education upon the matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clauses 12 to 15 agreed to.
Clause 16:
Restriction on carriage of road passengers on certain journeys in London Traffic Area.
16.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, no person other than the Board shall, after the appointed day, except with the written consent of the Board, carry
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within the special area any passengers on any vehicle while that vehicle is being used as a stage carriage or an express carriage, other than passengers entering the vehicle within the special area for the purpose of being set down outside that area or entering the vehicle outside the special area for the purpose of being set down within that area, or entering the vehicle outside the special area for the purpose of being set down outside that area:
(3) An application may be made to the Board on or before the first day of April, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, or such later date as the Minister may determine, by any person who is at any time before the appointed day operating a service of stage or express carriages under a road service licence under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, on any route any part of which lies within the special area (not being a service operated by an undertaking or part of an undertaking which is transferred to the Board by this Act) for permission to operate that service free from the restrictions imposed by subsection (1) of this section, and where any application is so made, the Board may grant the application either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as they may think fit or may refuse the application:
(4) If any person is aggrieved by the refusal of the Board to grant any application so made or by any condition attached by the Board to the grant of any such application, he shall—
(b) if he lodges with the Board a claim in writing within six months from the date when the restriction first operated in relation to that service, be entitled to recover from the Board such reasonable compensation as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by arbitration in respect of any damage which has been or will be suffered by him by reason of that restriction.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), to leave out "on" ["on any vehicle"] and insert "in or upon." The noble Viscount said: I should have thought that passengers were generally carried in vehicle, not on it. If your Lordships will refer to page 25 of the Marshalled List of Amendments you will see an Amendment after Clause 104 by my noble friend in charge of the Bill reading:
" The Minister may by regulations make provision for the safe custody and redelivery or disposal of any property accidentally left on or in any premises."
I should have thought it was unlikely any property should be left "on" any premises; it would more likely be left "in" premises. I beg to move.
Amendement moved—
Page 27, line 15, leave out ("on") and insert ("in or upon")—( Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am sorry I am unable to accept this Amendment.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: If I may say so the reply of the noble Marquess is a little curt. He gives Ito reason. But I shall withdraw the Amendment now and try to talk the noble Marquess over in tae meantime.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "April arid insert" October." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is consequential upon the proposals first of all to postpone from the 1st January until the 1st July the transfer of existing transport undertakings of the Board, and, secondly, to postpone from the 1st July to 1st January, 1934, the operation of Clause 16, which restricts the operation of stage and express carriages within the special area.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 2, leave out ("April") and insert ("October")—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 5, leave out ("appointed day") and insert ("date of his application")—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had an Amendment, in subsection (4), to leave out "is" ["Board is"] and insert "are." The noble Viscount said: I fancy that my noble friend is not going to accept this Amendment, so I will not move it, relying on the terms I have already mentioned, that I go to the Minister of Education.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 29, line 34, after ("of") insert ("services of")—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (4), immediately after paragraph (b), to insert:
" Provided that, where a claim for compensation is duly lodged under this paragraph in respect of a service operated wholly or mainly within the special area, the Board shall, by notice in writing served on the claimant within one month from the date of the lodging of the claim, be entitled, in lieu of paying compensation under this paragraph, to take over such part of the undertaking of the claimant as consists in the provision of the service in respect of winch the claim is made on such terms as may be agreed or in default of agreement as may be determined by arbitration."
The noble Marquess said: Clause 16 provides that no person shall cater for passenger traffic local to the special area without the consent of the Board. Subsection (4) of the clause provides that if any person is aggrieved by the. refusal of the Board to give such consent or by any conditions attaching to the. consent, he shall be entitled: (a) if the service affected is wholly or mainly within the special area, to require the Board to take over the service on such terms as may be agreed or, failing agreement, determined by arbitration; or (b) to claim compensation from the Board for any damage which has been or will be suffered by him by reason of the restriction. Thus any person operating a service which is wholly or mainly within the special area has the option of requiring the Board to purchase the service or to pay compensation. The. Board is given no option in the matter. The Amendment is designed to give the Board, in the case of a claim for compensation, in respect of a service which is wholly or mainly within the special area, the option of purchasing the service in lieu of paying; compensation. A service is deemed to be operated mainly within the special area if not less than 75 per cent. of the total car mileage was run within the special area.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 5, at end insert the said proviso.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I will not move my next drafting Amendment on the same conditions as I have already named.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential

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upon the Amendment which has been moved in line 5 on page 30.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 22, after ("a"), insert ("or paragraph (b)").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (5), to leave out "July" and insert "January." The noble Marquess said: The effect of this and the immediately succeeding Amendment is to postpone from the 1st July next to the 1st January, 1934, the operation of Clause 16, which prohibits the operation of stage or express services which cater for traffic local to the special area except with the written consent of the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 34, leave out ("July") and insert ("January").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question. Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 35, leave out ("thirty-three") and insert ("thirty-four").— (The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Provisions relating to provincial operating companies.
(5) For the purposes of this section the appointed day shall be the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, or such later date as the Minister may appoint.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (5), to leave out "January" and insert "July." The noble Marquess said: This postponement by six months of the date of operation of the arrangements made with the provincial operating companies is consequential on the postponement of the appointed day for the transfer of undertakings to the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 33, line '28, leave out ("January") and insert ("July").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19:
Provision of service of passenger vessels on River Thames.
19. The powers of the London County Council under the Thames River Steamboat Service Act, 1904, with respect to the provision of a service of passenger vessels on the River Thames shall be transferred to the Board, and the Board, in execution of their general duty under Section three, shall consider and take such measures as they may think fit to utilise the River 'Thames for the purposes of passenger transport, whether with steamboats, motor-boats, or other vessels:
Provided that if the Board shall not think fit to provide a service themselves under this section they may from time to time enter into arrangements with private persons willing to provide such a service or services under conditions to be approved by the Board.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY had given Notice of a series of Amendments to recast the clause. The noble Marquess said: The clause as it stands does not define the date as from which the powers of the London County Council with respect to the provision of a service on the River Thames are to be transferred to the Board. The appointed day is defined in an Amendment to be moved later as the 1st July, 1933.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 25, leave out the first ("the") and insert ("As from the appointed day the").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 25, after ("Council") insert ("in this section referred to as the Council '").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question. Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to leave out "Act, 1904" and insert "Acts, 1904 and 1908 (in this section referred to as the said Acts ')." The noble Marquess said: In 1908 an Act was passed entitled the Thames River Steamboat Service Act (1904) Amendment Act, which amended the provisions of the Act of 1904 in certain respects. The two Acts together are, by virtue of the Act of 1908 to be cited as the "Thames River Steamboat Service Acts 1904 and 1908."
The London County Council has called attention to the existence of the amending Act, and suggested that it should be included in the clause and this Amendment gives effect accordingly. The Act of 1908 was passed to remove certain doubts which had arisen on the earlier Act particularly as to the power to charge for use of piers. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 26, leave out ("Act, 1904") and insert ("Acts, 1904 and 1908") in this section referred to as the said Acts.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting Amendments. I bog to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 34, line 29, leave out from the first ("Board") to ("consider") in line 30 and insert ("(2) It shall be the duty of the Board, in the exercise of their general duty under Section three of this Act, to")
Page 34 line 31, after ("fit") insert ("by virtue of the powers transferred to them by this section").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS iv LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS iv LONDONDERRY moved to leave out the proviso and insert:
" (3) The Board may from time to time enter into arrangements with the Council for the transfer to, or exercise by, the Board of any other powers vested in, or any duties imposed on, the Council by virtue of the said Acts and for the transfer to or use by the Board of works, land or property vested in or acquired by the Council under or in pursuance of the said Acts upon such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, as may be determined by arbitration.
(4) An arrangement made under subsection (3) of this section may provide for (a) the alteration or improvement by the Board of any works vested in the Council by virtue of the said Acts; and (b) for the making, of payments by the Board to the Council or by the Council to the Board in respect of any matter for which provision is made by the arrangement.
(5) In the event of the Board deciding Lot themselves to exercise the powers transferred to them by this section. the Board may from time to time enter into arrangements with other persons willing to provide such a service as aforesaid for the exercise or discharge by such persons of any of the powers or duties transferred to the Board by, or by virtue of any arrangement made under, this section upon such terms and under such conditions as may be specified in the arrangement.
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(6) An arrangement made under subsection (5) of this section may provide for (a) the interchange, accommodation and conveyance of traffic arising on, coming from, or destined for, any service provided by the Board or any other party to the arrangement; and (b) the payment, collection and apportionment of fares and charges and other receipts arising from any such service as aforesaid.
(7) For the purpose of this section the appointed day shall he the first day of July nineteen hundred and thirty-three or such later date as the Minister may appoint for the purpose."
The noble Marquess said: Clause 19 (Provision of service of Passenger Vessels on River Thames) in its present form was inserted during the Report stage in the House of Commons. The clause was moved by a private member and accepted by the Government; but it is by no means complete or fully effective in its present form in particular it does not provide for the transfer of a variety of powers included in the enabling Acts which are incidental to the provision of a service on the river, or for power to arrange with other parties willing to provide such a service, in the event of the Board deciding not to do so itself. The Amendments have been agreed with the London County Council. The new subsection (3) provides that the Board and the Council may enter into arrangements for the transfer to, or exercise by, the Board of ancillary or consequential powers or duties of the Council or the transfer of works, land or property of the Council in connection with the river service powers. If the parties fail to agree on terms, there can be recourse to arbitration.
The new subsection (4) empowers the Board under any such arrangement with the Council to alter or improve works and empowers each party to make payments to the other in pursuance of the arrangement. The new subsections (5) and (6) provide that if the Board decide not themselves to exercise the powers transferred to them, they may make arrangements with other persons willing to provide a service on such terms and conditions as may be specified. They also give a useful power to arrange for the interchange of traffic between the river service and other services of the Board. Subsection (7) fixes the 1st July, 1933, as the day on which the powers are to be transferred. to the Board. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 34, line 33, leave out from ("vessels") to the end of the section and insert the said new subsections.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 20 agreed to.
Clause 21:
Restriction on power of manufacture.
21. Subject to the provisions of this section, it shall not be lawful for the Board to manufacture, or apply their funds to the manufacture of any rolling-stock or vehicles except for the purposes of experiment or research:
Provided that, where immediately before the date of transfer any premises were being; used for the purpose of manufacturing omnibus bodies by undertakings or parts of undertakings which are transferred to the Board by this Act, the Board may continue to use those premises for the purpose of manufacturing such bodies for use in connection with their undertaking, so however that the number of omnibus bodies so manufactured by the Board in any year shall not exceed the average number of omnibus bodies manufactured annually by the London General Omnibus Company Limited at their premises at Chiswick in the County of Middlesex during the five years last preceding the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-two.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in the proviso, to leave out "their"[" their premises "] and insert "its" The noble Viscount said: I understand that my noble friend is willing to accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 31, leave out ("their") and insert ("its").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: Before the Amendment is put, may I be allowed to point out that the noble Viscount has mis-spelt the word "there"?
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME:I should like to see my draft. I think there may have been a printer's error.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I think my noble friend Viscount Bertie ought to re-peat his undertaking to see the Minister of Education.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE LORD MOUNT TEMPLE moved, at the end of the proviso, to leave out "thirty-two" and insert "thirty-one." The
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noble Lord said: I must apologise for not having put this Amendment upon the Paper but for various reasons it was not possible. If your Lordships will look at Clause 21 you will see that the marginal note is "Restriction on power of manufacture." The Board are not allowed under the Bill to manufacture generally. They are only allowed to manufacture omnibus bodies provided that they do not exceed the average number manufactured during the five years previous to January 1, 1932. I move to substitute for "1932" the year "1931." I do not propose to alter the Bill as it was originally brought in, nor to alter the Bill as it passed Second Reading and Committee stage in another place. I simply propose to put it back to the state it was in before the Report stage in another place. On the Report stage in another place a member moved to substitute 1932 for 1931 and the Attorney-General, without giving any valid reason, accepted the Amendment. The only reason he gave was that if the date 1931 was kept in there would be included in the five years average the year of the coal strike and the general strike, the year 1926, which would be unfair to the Board because it would diminish the average number of vehicles they would be allowed to manufacture.
I would point out to your Lordships that 1931 was definitely recommended by the Joint Committees and when the Bill was before the Joint Committee the year 1931 was accepted by the private manufacturers of motor omnibus bodies. It was practically—I think I am not putting it too high— an agreed compromise. The private manufacturers are naturally very disturbed by the upsetting of this agreement. They point out that in 1931 there was a very marked increase in the manufacture of omnibus bodies. I think it was more than double the figure of the year before. Therefore if the average is taken to the end of 1931 they as private manufacturers will have so many hundreds fewer bodies to manufacture than if the Bill were left in its original form. A point was made in the other place that if this extra quota is not allowed to the Board people would be discharged from the Chiswick works and unemployment would be caused. The answer to that is that the Board would be able to sell their works and if it was a genuine business

1117
private people would no doubt buy it and carry it on and there would be no unemployment.
I cannot help thinking that if my noble friend would look into the matter before the Report stage it might be possible to arrive at some compromise. Of course, the House of Commons is entitled to vary any recommendation of the Joint Committee, just as this House is entitled to do so, but when this date was arrived at as a fair arrangement it does seem hard that on the motion of a private member, without any authoritative statement on the part of the Government, the arrangement should be varied against the interests of the private manufacturer. May I, therefore, suggest to the noble Marquess that there is no question here of the laws of the Medes and Persians. There is no reason why four years should not be substituted for five years. The years 192, 1928, 1929 and 1930 might be taken, and that would exclude 1926 which was against the Board. I have no doubt that private manufacturers would agree to that compromise. If the noble Marquess would kindly express willingness to go into the matter before the report stage, I would be satisfied.
Amendment moved—
Page 35, line 34, leave out ("thirty-two") and insert ("thirty-one").—(Lord Mount Temple.)
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I hope that the noble Marquess will note the suggestion of the noble Lord before accepting his Amendment. This is a point on which I was approached. I watched most carefully to see whether any such Amendment would be put clown and having found nothing I am of course at a. great disability in answering when it comes up as a manuscript Amendment.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: I apologise.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I quite agree. That is why I hope before the Government dream of accepting the Amendment they will give others a little time to consider the matter before the Report stage.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Lord who moved the Amendment made it clear that this was a manuscript Amendment and that he was really My desirous that the matter should be considered, and was prepared to discuss
1118
it with the Ministry between now and the Report stage. The Amendment does involve a reversal of the Amendment made on the Report stage in the House of Commons, but the suggestion of the noble Lord is one I shall be glad to follow, and between now and the Report stage I have no doubt we shall be able to consider the matter. If he will bring it up again I will give the answer of the Ministry of Transport.
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: On that statement I ask leave to withdraw.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause. 22:
Restriction on power of Board to establish garages.
Provided that nothing in this section shall prevent the Board from—

(i) continuing to carry on at Morden in the County of Surrey the undertaking of Morden Station Garage Limited;

(ii) continuing to carry on the business of any other garage forming part of an undertaking which or part of which is transferred to the Board by this Act or which or part of which the Board is required to take over under this Act for such period not exceeding three years as may he necessary to enable the Board to dispose of the business so transferred or taken over; or

(iii) selling or otherwise disposing of vehicles which have been used for the purposes of their undertaking, or for the purpose of any working agreement made in pursuance of Section eighteen of this Act, or spare parts or equipment held by the Board for use in connection with any such vehicle as aforesaid.

THE MARQUES OF LONDONDERRY: The first two Amendments standing in my name to this clause are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 35, line 40, after ("or") insert ("used")
Page 35, line 42, leave out from ("Act") to end of line 2 on page 36.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment standing in my name is also drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 21, leave out ("or").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to insert, at the end of the clause: "or (iv) providing open or covered spaces where the private motor vehicles of persons using the transport services of the Board may stand." The noble Marquess said: These words were omitted by the Amendment in page 35, line 42, and are reinserted here as more appropriate.
Amendment moved—
Page 36, line 28, at end insert the said paragraph —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 22, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 23 and 24 agreed to.
Clause 25 [Statutory charging powers of the Board]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: understand my noble friend accepts this Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 42, line 10, leave out ("were") and insert ("was").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 26 agreed to.
Clause 27 [Fares in force on appointed day]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The two Amendments standing in my name on this clause are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 43, line 12, leave out from ("(2) '' to ("the") in line 13.
Page 43, line 14, at end insert ("shall be open for inspection at all reasonable times").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 28 and 29 agreed to.
Clause 30 [Representations by local authorities as to withdrawal, reduction of, or need for, services provided or to be provided by the Board]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:
"() Subject as hereinafter provided, the Board may at any time apply to the rates tribunal to amend, alter or revoke any order
1120
made by the tribunal under this section and on any such application the tribunal, after hearing any local authority desiring to be heard, being a local authority whose area is affected by the order, and upon being satisfied that since the date upon which the order was made there has been such a material change of circumstances as to justify a revision of the order, may, subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section, make such amendments or alterations in the order as they think fit or may revoke the order:
" Provided that no application shall be made by the Board under this subsection until the expiration of a period of twelve months from the date upon which the order was made, unless the Minister certifies that since the date on which the tribunal made the order there has been such a material change of circumstances as to justify a reconsideration of the order."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is required to remedy an omission in the clause and to enable the Railway Rates Tribunal, on the application of the Board, and after hearing any local authority desiring to be heard, to revise or revoke an order made by the Tribunal as to the restoration of a service or prohibiting the withdrawal or reduction of a service or requiring the provision of a new service by the Board. The Tribunal will have to be satisfied that there has been such a material change of circumstances as to justify a revision of its order and no application for such revision can be made within twelve months of the date of the order unless the Minister certifies that since that date there has been a material change of circumstances. It is obviously undesirable that an order once made could never be altered or revoked whatever might have happened since it was made. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 45. line 8, at end, insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 31:
Co-ordination of services of Board and amalgamated railway companies.
31.—(1) With a view to securing that the services provided or to be provided by the Board shall be properly co-ordinated with the suburban passenger services of the four amalgamated railway companies constituted under the Railways Act, 1921 (in this Act referred to as the "amalgamated railway companies")., there shall be established a Standing Joint Committee (in this section referred to as "the Joint Committee") which shall consist of eight members of

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whom four shall be appointed by the Board and, one shall be appointed by each of the amalgamated railway companies.
(8) The order of the tribunal confirming or settling the scheme under this section shall have effect as if it were an award by that tribunal under Section twelve of this Act; and the scheme so confirmed or settled shall, notwithstanding anything in this or any other Act or in any order having the force of an Act limiting the powers of the Board or of any of the amalgamated railway companies, be of full force and effect as from such date, not being earlier than the appointed day, as may be specified by the tribunal as the dry on which the scheme is to or is to be deemed to have conic into operation.
(12) In this section the expression "authorised" means authorised otherwise than by virtue of an agreement under this sec ion, and the expression "the appointed day" means the earliest day fixed by, or under, this Act as the appointed day in relation to the transfer of any undertaking to the Board.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The effect of the first two Amendments in subsection (8) standing in my name on this clause is that the pool of receipts from the Board's services and the suburban services of the main line railway companies will operate from the 1st July next notwithstanding that, it may not have been settled by the Arbitration Tribunal at that time. It is essential that the operation of the pooling scheme should be antedated to the day on which the Metropolitan Railway is transferred to the Board since the guarantee to be given by the main line companies to the Metropolitan ordinary stockholders is (if it has to be implemented) to be met out of the main lines' share of the pool. The antedating of the pool has the further advantage of enabling the main line companies to proceed with their schemes of electrification, etc. without unnecessary delay. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 47, line 11, after ("be") insert ("or be deemed to have been")
Page 47, line 11, leave out from ("from") to end of subsection (8) and insert ("the appointed day").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved in subsection (12), to leave out all words after "means the" and insert "first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three." The noble Marquess said:
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This is merely one of the alterations of date consequent upon the postponement of the transfer of undertakings. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 27, leave out from ("the") to end of the section and insert ("first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 32 [Application of provisions relating to amalgamated railway companies]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment standing in my name on this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 48, line 32, leave out from the first ("the") to the first ("the") in line 33 and insert ("first day of July nineteen hundred and thirty-three").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 [Charging powers of amalgamated railway companies]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE of THAME: I have down three drafting Amendments to this clause. I understand the noble Marquess does not accept the last of the three and I do not move it. I beg to move the other two Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 49, line 8, leave out ("they") and insert ("it").
Page 49, line 11, leave out ("are") and insert ("is").—(Viscount Bettie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 33, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 34 [Revision of fares of amalgamated railway companies]:
SCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I understand that all the four Amendments standing in my name to this clause are accepted.
Amendments moved—
Page 49, line 18, leave out ("have") and insert ("has")
Page 49, line 19, leave out ("themselves") and insert ("itself")
Page 49, line 20, leave out ("they desire") and insert ("it desires")
Page 49, line 24, leave out ("their") and insert ("its ')—(Viscount Bertie of Thame).
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35:
Representations by local authorities as to withdrawal, reduction of, or need for services provided or to be provided by amalgamated railway companies.
35.—(1) A local authority may at any time apply to the rates tribunal with respect to the withdrawal or reduction, or the proposed withdrawal or reduction, of any suburban passenger service or any facility provided by any of the amalgamated railway companies in connection with their suburban passenger services or with respect to the need for the provision by any of those companies of new or improved suburban passenger services or facilities in connection therewith.
(2) Where any such application is made, the rates tribunal may, if and so far as they think proper, by order require any of the amalgamated railway companies to restore, or prohibit the withdrawal or reduction of, such services subject to such conditions (including the provision of alternative facilities) as they may prescribe, or require any of the amalgamated railway companies to provide new or improved passenger services or facilities as the case may be:
Provided that the rates tribunal shall not make any order under this suction which would be likely to affect prejudicially the financial position of the amalgamated railway companies or any of them or which would necessitate the raising of additional capital by any of those companies save with the consent of the company concerned, or which would necessitate an application by any of those companies to Parliament for additional powers.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I understand my noble friend accepts my Amendment to this clause also.
Amendment moved—
Page 50. line 15, leave out ("their ') insert ("its").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add to subsection (1) "affecting the area of the authority." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is to bring Clause 35, which deals with the services of the main lines, into conformity with Clause 30, which deals with the services of the Board. It limits the right of representation by a local authority to services affecting its area. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 18, at end insert ("affecting the area of the authority").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 22, after ("of") insert ("the services in question, or permit the withdrawal or reduction of").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the clause, to insert:
"() Subject as hereinafter provided, any of the amalgamated railway companies affected by an order of the rates tribunal made under this section may at any time apply to the tribunal to amend, alter or revoke that order and upon any such application the tribunal, after hearing any local authority desiring to be heard, being a local authority whose area is affected by the order, and upon being satisfied that, since the date upon which the order was made, there has been such a material change of circumstances as to justify a revision of the order, may, subject to the provisions of subsection (2) of this section, make such amendments or alterations in the order as they think fit, or may revoke the order:
" Provided that no application shall be made by any of the amalgamated railway companies under this section until the expiration of a period of twelve months from the date upon which the order was made, unless the Minister certifies that since that date there has been such a material change of circumstances as to justify a reconsideration of the order."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment, which is in terms similar to the Amendment already moved in Clause 30, is required for the reasons I have already stated in moving that Amendment. This clause, however, affects the services of the main line companies instead of those of the Board. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 50, line 36, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 35, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 36 and 37 agreed to.
Clause 38:
Power of Board to borrow for capital purposes.
(3) The maximum amount which may be borrowed by the Board under this section, exclusive of any sums borrowed under paragraphs (a), (b), (c), or (h) of subsection (2) of this section, shall be an amount representing the aggregate of the following sums, that is to say—

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(a) a sum equivalent to the additional moneys which, under the London Electric, Metropolitan District, Central London and City and South London Railway Companies Act, 1930, the London Electric Railway Company, the Metropolitan District Railway Company and the Central London Railway Company are respectively empowered to raise, reduced by an amount equivalent to any additional moneys which before the appointed day any of the said companies may have raised in pursuance of the powers conferred by that Act; and

(b) the sum of ten million pounds.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY THE EARL OF HALSBURY moved, in subsection (3) (a), after "1930," to insert "and the London Electric, Metropolitan District and Central London Railway Companies (Works) Act, 1931." The noble Earl said: Clause 38 deals with the burrowing powers for capital purposes under the Bill. In 1930 and 1931, when the London Passenger Transport Bill was before the House of Commons, there was another Bill instituted by the Underground Railways for the purpose of raising money for the extension of the Bakerloo Tube from the Elephant and Castle to Camberwell Green. Owing to the way in which the time programme went it was impossible to get the claims of that Bill under the Act. There was no time to get it, and the result was that unless this be included in the present Bill those powers of borrowing up to £1,500,000 will lapse. Of course it is only a power, but it is giving to the new Board a power which was to be given to the Underground Railways, and therefore it would be bringing into this Bill what has been virtually agreed before. I understand that the Government are willing to accept this Amendment.
Amendment moval—
Page 52, line 27, after ("1930") insert (and the London Electric, Metropolitan)strict and Central London Railway Companies (Works) Act, 1931").—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Earl has explained the purport of this Amendment, and I need not detain your Lordships by repeating what lie has said. The Government are prepared to accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: These Amendments are consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 52, line 35, leave out ("that Act") and insert ("those Acts")
Page 53, line 14, after ("1930") insert ("and the London Electric, Metropolitan District and Central London Railway Companies (Works) Act, 1931").—(The Earl of Halsbury.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 39:
Issue of transport stock.
(4) London Transport "A" Stock and B "Stock—

(a) shall bear interest as follows:—

(i) stock issued as consideration for the transfer to the Board of the Underground undertakings and of the Metropolitan undertaking shall in the case of "A" Stock bear interest at such rate, being either four and one-half per cent. per annum or five per cent. per annum, as is necessary to enable effect to be given to the provisions of Part 1 of the Third Schedule and of Part 1 of the Fourth Schedule to this Act, and in the case of B "Stock at five per cent. per annum;

(7) London Transport "C" Stock shall, subject to the provisions of this section, bear interest as follows:—

(b) in respect of any year after the first two years in which there is a sum available out of the revenue of the Board applicable to the payment of additional interest on that stock under subsection (3) of Section forty-six of this Act, additional interest shall be paid at whichever of the following rates, that is to say, one-eighth, one-quarter, three-eighths, or one-half of one per cent., is the highest rate that that sum is sufficient to pay:

Provided that—
(iii) in any year in which the revenues of the Board applicable to the payment of interest on the "C" Stock are insufficient to pay interest at the rate of six per cent., any sums standing to the credit of the fund shall be applicable to making up interest for that year on the "C" Stock to any rate (being a multiple of one-eighth of one per cent.) not exceeding six per cent.
(8) London Transport "O" Stock may be redeemed at par at the option of the Board on the thirty-first day of December one thousand nine hundred and fifty-five or at any time thereafter, so, however, that the said stock shall not be redeemable before the date of the dissolution of the trust for which provision is made by Section eighty-nine of this Act, except upon six months' notice of intention to redeem and at the end of any year.
(9) Transport stock issued as consideration for the transfer by this Act to the Board of undertakings, or parts of undertakings, shall bear interest from the appointed day.
(14) Subject to the provisions of this Act, transport stock shall be issued, transferred, dealt with and redeemed in accordance with regulations to be made by the Minister, with the approval of the Treasury, prior to the issue of such stock, or such other regulations as the Minister may with such approval from time to time by order prescribe, and such regulations shall provide for the enforcement of the security by the appointment of a receiver or a receiver and manager or otherwise and may apply for the purposes of this section with or without modifications any provisions of the Local Loans Act, 1875, the Public Health Acts Amendment Act, 1890, and the Acts amending those Acts, and of any Act relating to stock issued by any local authority:
Provided that regulations made under this section—
(c) shall authorities the holders of "C" Stock, being holders in the aggregate of not less than five per cent. of the total amount of "C" Stock then outstanding, to apply to the High Court for the appointment of a receiver or a receiver and manager of the undertaking of the Board in the event of the Board failing in respect of each of these consecutive years of which the first shall be not earlier than the third year after the appointed day to pay interest on the "C" Stock at the standard rate for those years.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM moved, in subsection (4) (a) (i), after "either," to insert "three per cent. per annum, or three and a half per cent. per annum or four per cent. per annum or." The noble Lord said: In moving this Amendment I would like to point out that it will not entail a single penny of increase in expenditure on the part of the new body, nor will it in any kind of way interfere with the working of the body, but it will preserve to trustees and others, who have invested their money under the authority of an Act of Parliament, their investment intact, always of course provided that the finances of the new undertaking are sound. I would like to remind your Lordships of a statement made by the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, on the Second Reading of the Bill. He stated that the security which I told your Lordships I held had gone up nine points when the scheme was approved, and he said that he would have liked to be in the same position.
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I think from the cheers which his statement evoked that that statement made some impression upon your Lordships' House. My noble and learned friend, as I have already told him in writing, was in error when he said that. I have had the quotations looked up in the Official Stock Exchange List, and I find that instead of the stock going up it remained without change for about four or five months, and then went down. It is true that since then, in company with other English trustee stock, it has risen, but that is on account of the success of the Conversion Loan and not on account of the success of the scheme.
It was also said by my noble and learned friend, and by Lord Elibank, that the alteration made by this Bill is an alteration which the Courts are continually making in debenture and similar stocks. Of course I was fully aware of that, but where the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, made an error, and Lord Elibank was also in error, was this. The stocks to which they alluded were stocks issued under the Companies (Limited Liability) Act, and there the Courts have power, and no doubt it has often happened that where in the case of a company issued under the Companies (Limited Liability) Act it is found difficult for financial reasons to pay interest on its debentures, meetings have been held and the directors have said: In the circumstances would it not be better, sooner than put in a receiver, to forego some interest for a time in the hope that matters will mend? They have then gone to the Courts, and the Courts, after hearing both sides and all particulars, have agreed, but in this case the Courts have nothing to do with it.
These are securities issued under an Act of Parliament, and Parliament alone can deal with and alter them. I hope your Lordships will excuse me if I explain what this Bill is going to do, because the matter is rather technical, and it is a subject on which I have personal knowledge, because I was once a stock broker and I have been a bank director, and I have knowledge of investments. If this Bill is carried as it is, it is going to be a serious matter. The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, said, I think publicly in this House and certainly privately, that he is only following the precedent of the Metropolitan water companies. Now I am prepared to withdraw

1129
my Amendment if the noble Marquess, or in his absence the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Hailsham, will agree to give to these debenture holders exactly the same terms as were given to the debenture holders of the Metropolitan water companies.
I have had the whole matter looked up and I find that the Metropolitan water companies in 1902 were taken over by the Water Board under Act of Parliament. I would again point out that these are trustee stocks in which marriage settlements and other trustee funds have been invested. The Metropolitan water companies—there were eight of them—had debentures, redeemable and irredeemable, which varied from 2½ per cent. to 5 per cent. The redeemable debenture stock were left exactly as they were, and they are to-day quoted on the Stock Exchange exactly as they were when they were taken over by the new Board. They have not been altered either in capital value or in interest. The irredeemable stock were given the same interest in a 3 per cent. redeemable stock. Just see what that means. A 3 per cent. stock in 1902 was standing well below 100, and therefore it was no hardship, but on the contrary it was a benefit, to the holders at some time or other—I think sixty years—to have their stock redeemed at 100.
What does this Bill do? It takes a 3 per cent. stock, irredeemable trustee stock, issued under the authority of an Act of Parliament, which no one can vary except Parliament—it takes your £100 stock and gives you £66 13s. 4d. It is true it says that the new £66 13s. 4d. It shall carry interest at the rate of 4½ per cent., which will give you the same interest that you had before, but that stock is to be redeemed in fifty years, not at £100 but at £66 13s. 4d. The Metropolitan District Railway 3 per cent. rent-charge, which ranks before the debentures, is at the present moment standing at £75. Under this Bill it will be redeemed—it is true in fifty years—not at the present price, but at £66 13s. 4d. Some mistake must have arisen, and I venture to ask your Lordships either to support me in asking my noble friend Lord Londonderry to accept the same conditions as were given to the Metropolitan Water Company debenture holders, or else to accept my Amendment, which would have the same effect.
Why I attach so much importance to this is that if it goes through as it is now it will be accepted as a precedent. The noble Marquess told me only last week that he had the precedent of the Metropolitan water companies. That precedent, as I have shown, was different, and was not a bad precedent. This clause takes away rights from a man who, under an Act of Parliament has obtained a £100 stock irredeemable, without any authority in that Act of Parliament that lie can be bound by a decision of the majority. There is nothing in that Act which says you may have a meeting, and if by chance there happen to be a certain number of people there who do not object, then they can bind a minority. Not at all. Everybody has a title, a Parliamentary title, which cannot be altered except by an Act of Parliament. Just consider what may happen. At the present moment one of the greatest things to be desired is confidence. People should be able to invest their money, and should be confident that if they do so invest their money, at any rate in securities that have a Parliamentary title, that money should be safe. There are at present immense sums invested in debentures of railway companies. In the London and North Eastern Railway Company alone there are £67,000,000 of 3 per cent, stock. Is it to be taken as a precedent that in the event—not an unlikely event if this Bill goes through—of the nationalising of the railways, or of the taking them over by a Board, these debentures are to be taken and the debenture 'holders, instead of £100, are to get £66 13s. 4d.? If so, you will strike a blow at large sums of money invested by trustees in marriage settlements and other things, it will be disastrous to the confidence which I am sure that all of your Lordships desire to see restored in the investments of this country.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 23, after ("either") insert ("three per cent. per annum or three-and-a-half per cent. per annum or four per cent. per annum or").—(Lord Banbury of Southam.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): I have asked my noble friend Lord Londonderry to let me reply on this Amendment, because I owe my noble friend Lord Banbury an apology. Your Lordships

1131
will remember that when my noble friend made his speech on the Second Reading he gave two instances of irredeemable stock which had been, as he thought, unfairly dealt with. One was Metropolitan 3½ per cent. debenture stock, which was turned into 4½ per cent. "A" stock, and which was owned by a friend of his. The other was 3 per cent. Consolidated Metropolitan District stock, which is changed into 4½ per cent. "A" stock, and which is owned by himself.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTTIAM: Rentcharge.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: Rentcharge. I am much obliged. I said that as a result of the acceptance of the proposals there had been a gain to my noble friend of £9. I was quite wrong. The gain was to his friend; he made the £9. There was a jump of £9 in market price of the stock immediately after the agreement with the railway companies, which his friend no doubt profited by to the tune of some £400. But the argument I put forward, although the illustration, I admit, was the wrong one, was the same; because my noble friend was saying that this bargain was "sheer robbery," to use his own phrase. The point I was making was that there was no loss, either of capital or income, to anybody as the result of what was being done, and I think I can quite satisfy your Lordships—I should be too sanguine to think I could satisfy Lord Banbury—that I was right in what I said.
The 3 per cent. Consolidated rent-charge of the Metropolitan District Railway Company which was owned by my noble friend is to be exchanged for £66 13s. 4d. nominal of 41 per cent. "A" stock, which is redeemable at a very remote period, or a period which would be very remote to anybody except my noble friend. The point I was making was that there was no "robbery" of either capital or interest. First of all, the income is exactly the same.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: I said so, or meant to say so.
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: I am sure there was no difference about that. Therefore, as far as income was concerned, the owner of this 4½ per cent. "A" stock will get just as much during the currency of the debenture as he is getting to-day. Then my noble friend says: "Oh, but he
1132
is losing in capital because he is only getting £66 13s. 4d. for £100." I think that rests on a complete fallacy, because the £100 stock was, as he himself has pointed out, an irredeemable stock. He therefore could never under this bargain get £100 for his stock from the railway company. All he could ever get in capital was what the market would give him for the stock. I have had looked up what the market price of this stock was. I find in 1930 the lowest price it touched was £55¼, the highest was £61. In 1931, which was the year in which the agreement was approved by the stockholders—I think it was in May, 1931—the lowest price was £56, arid the highest £64. That last price was, I think, a little later than the actual agreement. At the date of the agreement the price was round about £60.
Your Lordships will see, therefore, that the owner of that stock during those two years could have got at most £64 for his stock, and if he sold at the wrong time he would have got only £55. What you are going to redeem is £66 13s. 4d. He is getting, in other words, when he is ultimately redeemed, a higher price than the market price of this irredeemable stock during those two years. Whether at any time between 1931 and the ultimate date of redemption he would get more than.£66 13s. 4d. would depend upon the market price of securities of that kind of value during the period, and, in fact—I think again there will be no conflict here —when trustee securities improved in 1932 the price of this stock after the agreement had been sanctioned by the stockholders actually went up at one period to over £76. Your Lordships will see therefore that what is happening to this unfortunate person who is being "robbed" by this Bill is that he gets just the same income as he got before. This stock is just as valuable as it was before, because the mallet price did not go down, and he has the assurance that if he chooses to hold for fifty years he knows exactly what he is going to get for it. If any trustee prefers irredeemable stock to redeemable he can change his investment without loss to himself, and therefore no one who held this stock at the time this arrangement was made can be said to be a penny worse off than he was before.
Having said that, I hope I have disposed of the suggestion that there is any-

1133
thing unfair in these agreements, but I want just to add, because it is important to remember, that although it is quite true that the Companies Acts do not apply and a Statute is the only thing that is applicable, that does not mean that the general principle is different. It only means that the method by which an alteration may he made is different. Instead of doing it by applying to the Court as under the Companies Acts you have to do it by going to Parliament, and Parliament will have to make up its mind whether or not the alteration is a fair one, just as the Court has to make up its mind in the case of a company registered under the Companies Act whether an alteration proposed is a fair one before it gives its assent. I hope I have given your Lordships pretty good reasons for saying that it is fair in this case. I may add this, which I think is an important fact, that, as Lord Ashfield pointed out on the Second Reading, the proposals were submitted after due notice to meetings of every class of stockholder concerned, and were in every case approved without dissent by the stockholders themselves at meetings specially called for the purpose. In conclusion, the noble Lord, Lord Banbury, said that this Amendment can quite easily be made, but if you make it you would not be carrying out the arrangement which has been made with every one of these classes of stockholders who have all agreed to these terms and who have all passed unanimous resolutions accepting them. You would therefore tear up every agreement made and you would throw the whole arrangement into the melting pot, which might not be unwelcome to Lord Banbury, but which the majority of the House, after the verdict on the Second Reading, would profoundly regret.
LORD BANBURY OF SOUTHAM: May I point out to my noble and learned friend that at the present moment the particular stock in question is quoted at £75, and therefore a holder will receive, if he holds it, £66, which of course is a loss? May I also point out that trustees are not entitled to invest in a redeemable stock if it is beyond a, certain point above par, and therefore it is extremely doubtful whether, if this stock stands at £75 and the return is £66, trustees will be able to invest in it? My noble and learned friend has said that there were meetings
1134
at which the various holders agreed, and the noble Lord, Lord Ashfield, told us on the Second Reading that the proper notices were sent out to all the different holders. In my case I either did not get it or it was torn up in the belief that it was a circular. If your Lordships will pardon the conceit, I am generally not asleep over these things, and I never heard of it until I saw it in the Bill about a week ago. I do not know whether these resolutions were passed by a majority of the stock or merely by the people present at the meeting but, presuming the majority of the stock—because that is the point—agreed, that does not touch my point, because there is nothing in an Act of Parliament which says a majority may bind a minority. Many of us who were brought up to believe in the sanctity of an Act of Parliament may never have taken the trouble to go down to a meeting—we may have been in the country—but we knew we had a Parliamentary title which could not be taken away except by Act of Parliament, and we knew that for the last 100 years Parliament has never broken that title.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next three Amendments in my name are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 56, line 28, after ("per cent.") insert ("per annum").
Page, 57, line 9, after ("per cent.") insert ("per annum").
Page 57, line 14, after ("per cent.") insert ("per annum").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (8), to leave out "and at the end of any year" and insert "expiring on the thirtieth day of June in any year." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is consequential on an Amendment which will be moved later. It provides that the financial year of the Board shall run from the 1st July to the 30th June. As the interest on the "C" stock is dependent on the result of a year's working it would be impracticable to redeem this stock otherwise than at the end of the Board's financial year. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 26, leave out from ("redeem") to end of subsection (8) and insert ("expiring under the 30th June in any year").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (9), after "undertakings" to insert "or issued pursuant to subsection (1) or subsection (3) of Section eighty-seven of this Act." The noble Marquess said: This is preliminary to certain Amendments which are proposed in Clause 87, subsections (1) and (3), the object of which is to ensure that interest on the "B" Stock to be issued to the Underground Holding Companies in exchange for certain amounts of "A 'and "C" stock and on the further "B" stock, up to an amount of £1,850,000 for which the companies are entitled to subscribe, shall in all cases run as from the appointed day. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 57, line 30, after ("undertakings") insert ("or issued pursuant to subsection (1) or subsection (3) of Section 87 of this Act").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 9, leave out from ("the") to ("to") in line 10 and insert ("year ending on the 30th day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-six").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
On Question, Whether Clause 39, as amended, shall be agreed to?
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME said: Lines 31 to 37 on page 58 of the Bill read as follows:
" Subject to the provisions of this section interest on transport stock shall be paid as follows:

(a) in the case of "A" stock, "T F A" stock, "L A" stock and "B" stock by equal half-yearly payments; and

(b) in the case of "C" stock by yearly payments."

The "B" stock carries interest at 5 per cent. Supposing for any reason during the first six months of the year only enough is earned to pay 2 per cent. owing perhaps to a strike, will that preclude 3 per cent. being paid for the second six months if recuperation takes
1136
place during the second six months? Perhaps the noble Marquess will consider that and draft something on Report to meet the case.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I will consider it.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 40 agreed to.
Clause 41:
Power of Board to borrow temporarily.
41.—(1) The Board may borrow temporarily by the issue of bonds or otherwise such sums, in addition to the sums which they are authorised by this Act to borrow for capital purposes, as they may require for meeting their obligations and carrying out their duties under this Act, provided that the total amount so borrowed and outstanding shall not at any time exceed three million pounds.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (1), after "otherwise," to insert "or make arrangement with bankers for the purpose of raising". The noble Viscount said: On comparing the provisions for borrowing by the Board under the Electricity Supply Act, 1926, I notice that the Board has this extra power to make arrangements with its hankers. I have heard that my noble friend cannot accept it quite in this form and that he has a form of words which he is prepared to accept. If he will kindly move it in the form he wishes, or put the words into my mouth, that will meet my point.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 41, after ("otherwise") insert ("or make arrangements with bankers for the purpose of raising").— (Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The intention of my noble friend, I take it, is to make it clear that the Board may borrow, temporarily, by means of bankers' overdrafts. The Government is prepared to accept this Amendment in principle, but, as the noble Viscount has said, the form in which he has moved it is not quite acceptable. I suggest that the- Amendment should be in page 61, line 41, after "otherwise" to insert "or by arrangements with bankers."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I will move the Amendment in that form.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.,
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 41, after ("otherwise") insert ("or by arrangements with bankers").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 42 to 45 agreed to.
Clause 46 [Application of revenues of Board]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment in my name on this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 65, line 30, after ("per cent.") insert ("per annum").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 46, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 47 agreed to.
Clause 48 [Accounts and audit]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment in my name on this clause is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 16, leave out ("an auditor") and insert ("auditors").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 48, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 49 to 54 agreed to.
Clause 55:
Transitory provisions as to licences.
55.—(1) The Minister may by order provide that any licence which has been granted in respect of a vehicle, or to the driver or conductor thereof, by any authority whose powers in that behalf are abolished or transferred by this Part of this Act, and which is in force immediately before the commencement of this Part of this Act, shall continue in force for such a period, and have such effect for the purposes of any enactment relating to any such licence, as may be provided by the order.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1), after "licence", to insert "or of the Act of 1930." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment w ill enable the Minister by Order to provide that licences granted by the Police Commissioner under the Act of 1869 to short stage vehicles—namely, the London omnibuses—shall for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act, 19c0, be deemed to include a certificate of fitness. Clause 51 of the Bill provides for the transfer of the
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duty of licensing the London omnibuses from the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to the Metropolitan Traffic Commissioner and so brings the licensing of the vehicles into line with the system in operation in the rest of the country under the Road Traffic Act, 1930. Under Clause 68 of the Act of 1930, the Traffic Commissioner cannot license any vehicle until a certificate has been issued by a certifying officer that the prescribed conditions of fitness are fulfilled. The issue of these certificates involves a detailed examination of each vehicle by the certifying officer.
As some 6,000 vehicles will be transferred on the appointed day from the licensing jurisdiction of the Police Commissioner to that of the Traffic Commissioner, the certifying officer would, if he were required to issue certificates of fitness in respect of such a large number of vehicles, be faced with an impossible task. The examination of the vehicles by a certifying officer would occupy some two or three years. Having regard to the fact that in connection with the issue of the licences by the Police Commissioner the vehicles have been subjected annually to a strict examination by the police, it is considered to be unnecessary that the vehicles should be again examined by a certifying officer immediately upon the transfer of the licensing jurisdiction, and it is therefore proposed that the requirement as to a certificate of fitness should be waived for a period not exceeding five years, the maximum period for which such a certificate is valid.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 40, after ("licence") insert ("or of the Act of 1930").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD JESSEL: As I understand it the police in London will not now examine the vehicles, and this duty will be handed over to the Traffic Commissioner for the Metropolitan area. Is not that so? Who will actually perform the inspection? Will it be some official of the Traffic Commissioner or will it be delegated to the Metropolitan Police?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: will give my noble friend the information later. I am under the impression—I will verify it—that there are at the present moment examiners for carrying out these duties.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 56:
Date of operation of this Part of this Act.
56. This Part of this Act shall come into operation on the first clay of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-three, or such later date as the Minister may by order appoint.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to leave out "This" and to insert "Sections fifty-two and fifty-four of this Act shall come into operation on the passing of this Act but save as aforesaid this." The noble Marquess said: This is really a drafting Amendment but it is perhaps well for me to say that it is desirable that Clause 52, which remedies a defect in the Road Traffic Act, 1930, and Clause 54, which will enable the Traffic Commissioners for the South Eastern Traffic Area to hold public sittings in London, should come into operation immediately on the passing of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 16, leave out ("This") and insert the said new words.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting Amendments. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 71, line 17, leave out ("January") and insert ("July")
Page 71, line 19, after ("appoint") insert ("and different dates may be fixed for different purposes and different provisions of this Part of this Act").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 56, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 57 [London Traffic Act, 1924, made permanent]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment to this clause standing in my name is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 71, line 25, leave out ("thirty-two") and insert ("thirty-three").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 57, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 58 [Reconstitution of Advisory Committee]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: There are three alterations in date to be
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made in this clause consequential on the delay in the passage of the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 71, line 37, leave out ("January") and insert ("July")
Page 71, line 38, leave out ("thirty-first day of December") and insert ("thirtieth day of June")
Page 71, line 39, leave out ("thirty-five") and insert ("thirty-six").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 58, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 59 and 60 agreed to.
Clause 61 [Provisions as to routes for road services within special area]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: There are four drafting Amendments to be made in this clause. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 73, line 32, leave out ("As from the appointed day")
Page 76, line 12, leave out ("appointed")
Page 76, line 13, after ("day") insert ("upon which the provisions of this section come into operation")
Page 76, line 17, leave out ("the appointed") and insert ("that").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 61, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 62:
Restriction on number of passenger vehicles using certain streets.
(4) Any such regulations may provide for imposing fines recoverable summarily in respect of breaches thereof not exceeding in the case of a first offence twenty pounds, or in the case of a second or subsequent offence fifty pounds, together with, in the case of a continuing offence, a further fine not exceeding five pounds for each day on which the offence continues.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (2), to leave out the second "make" and to insert "makes." The noble Viscount said: Surely the word "organisation" is a singular word, and therefore I move this Amendment. I understand that the Government does not intend to accept this, and I should like some explanation from the noble Marquess. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 77, line 31, leave out ("make") and insert ("makes").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: With the noble Viscount's permission I would like an opportunity of looking into this matter.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in subsection (4), after "day," to insert "subsequent to the date on which the conviction has been recorded of the offence during." The noble Viscount said: Similar words to those I propose to insert in this subsection occurred in the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill in 1931, when the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, was in charge of that Bill. The noble Lord said on that occasion:
" It would be unreasonable and contrary to the usual practice that the continuing penalty imposed by the clause for a continuing offence should begin to run before there has been a conviction for the offence."
With those words, if I may say so, I entirely agree. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 78', line 16, after ("day") insert ("subsequent to the day on which a conviction has been recorded of the offence during").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The words of the clause are similar to these used in Section 75 (2) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, in a similar connection.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Then the question depends on whether the Road Traffic Act is a better precedent than the Pharmacy and Poisons Bill. I should like the noble Marquess to look a little further into the matter, and if he will do that I will withdraw this Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I shall be only too glad to look into the matter, but I would like to remark that as the London Passenger Transport Bill has some connection with the Road Traffic Act it might be well to adopt similar phraseology.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 62 agreed to.
Clauses 63 and 64 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after Clause 64, to insert the following new clause:
Transitory provisions.
". Notwithstanding anything Part of this Act, the members of the
1142
Advisory Committee in office on the passing of this Act shall continue in office as such members until the reconstitution of the Committee has been completed in accordance with this Part of this Act with the like powers and duties as if this Act had not been passed."
The noble Marquess said: The object of this new clause which I propose is to provide that the existing members of the London Traffic Advisory Committee shall continue in office until the new Committee proposed by Clause 58 of the Bill is constituted. Some weeks may elapse after the passing of the Act before it will be possible to reconstitute the London Traffic Advisory Committee in accordance with the Twelfth Schedule to the Bill, because the local authorities by whom the majority of the members of the Committee will be appointed, may not in all cases hold meetings until some weeks later, and in the case of several of the other members of the Committee consultations with various bodies are prescribed as a preliminary to appointment. It would be inconvenient if the work of the Committee had to be suspended and moreover it will be remembered that a representative of the Committee is to be a member of the Appointing Trustees to appoint the members of the Board, and delay in calling together the Appointing Trustees for this purpose would be most undesirable.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 64, insert the said new clause.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 65 [Date of operation of this Part of this Act]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendments to this clause are consequential. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 79, line 32, after ("Committee") insert ("and for the continuance in office of existing members pending such reconstitution")
Page 79, line 35, leave out ("January") and insert ("July").—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 65, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 66 agreed to.
Clause 67:
Constitution of Negotiating Committee and Wages Board.
67—(1) The Negotiating Committee referred to in the last preceding section shall consist of—

(a) six representatives of the Board to be appointed by the Board; and

(b) six representatives of the employees of the Board, two of whom shall be appointed by each of the trades unions.

(2) The Wages Board referred to in the last preceding section shall consist of—

(a) an independent chairman to be nominated by the Minister of Labour;

(b) six representatives of the Board to be appointed by the Board;

(c) six representatives of the employees of the Board, two of whom shall be appointed by each of tile trades unions; and

(d) four other persons to be appointed as to one, by the General Council of the Trades Union Congress, as to one, by the Co-operative Union, as to one, by the Association of British Chambers of Commerce and, as to one, by the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations.

(3) On the consideration by the Negotiating Committee or the Wages Board of any question referred to them, any party to the reference may raise any point they may consider relevant to the issue, and any point so raised shall be taken into consideration by the Negotiating Committee or the Wages Board, as the case may he.
LORD JESSEL LORD JESSEL moved to leave out Clause 67. The noble Lord said: I move this Amendment simply in order to elicit seine information from the Government on the subject of their future action. On the first portion of the clause I have nothing to say, but I would point out with regard to subsection (2) that it is proposed to appoint a Wages Board to consist of an independent chairman and six representatives of the Board with six representatives of the employees of the Board. We have seen a similar Board in operation in connection with the railways of this country, with the rather unfortunate result that the six employers' representatives made one report and the representatives of the employees another report, while the chairman made a separate report with the result that no conclusion was come to. In Northern Ireland, after a decision by the Wages Board, the employees refused to accept it and that has resulted in a prolonged strike and a very unhappy state of affairs. I do not know whether the Government's spokesman can give us some
1144
information as to whether they are going to adopt this procedure in the future. In view of the anxiety felt in many quarters following the non-success of the present constitution of the Railway Wages Board, I think it would be a relief if they would give some indication of their policy in the future as regards these unhappy disputes from time to time in the railway world. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 67—(Lord Jessel.)
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: Perhaps I may be permitted to ask a question here. This clause deals with the constitution of the Negotiating Committee and it does not state the duration of the appointment of the members. Is that intentional or not?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I am sure none of your Lordships will quarrel with the noble Lord for having raised this subject, which is naturally very important. The effect of deleting Clause 67, which I know is not the intention of the noble Lord, would be to omit from the Bill any machinery for constituting the Negotiating Committee and the Wages Board which are required to be set up by Clause 66. The Negotiating Committee is to consist of six representatives of the Board and six of the employees, two of whom will be appointed by each of the three unions concerned, the National Union of Railwaymen, the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen and the Railway Clerks' Association. The Wages Board will be similarly constituted, with the addition of an independent chairman nominated by the Minister of Labour and four other persons, to be appointed by the Trades Union Congress, the Co-operative Union, the Association of British Chambers of Commerce and the National Confederation of Employers' Organisations. Except that a person appointed by the last named body is substituted for a person appointed by the Federation of British Industries, the constitution of the Wages Board, as also of the Negotiating Committee, is similar to that of the similar machinery set up by the Railways Act, 1921, with the substitution of the Board for the main line companies.
The noble Lord who has raised this subject has done so presumably to call

1145
attention to the fact that the Railway National Wages Board has recently failed to come to any agreed conclusions upon the application of the railway companies for a reduction in wages and that the union representatives have declined to accept the recommendations of the independent chairman. It is however premature to decide that conciliation machinery on the lines laid down by the Railways Act has broken down and should be abandoned, nor is it yet apparent what, if any, changes may be necessary in that machinery or in the constitution of the conciliation bodies. The clause represents an agreement with the three unions. In order, however, to provide a means whereby the constitution of the Negotiating Committee and of the Wages Board may be varied at a later date, if such course seems desirable, the Government will be prepared to move an amendment on the Report stage so as to enable the constitution of these bodies to be varied, after 12 months' notice by the Board or by the Trades Unions, by a committee consisting of six representatives of the Board and two of each of the three trades unions. I think perhaps this elasticity will meet the noble Lord and also cover the point raised by the noble Viscount.
LORD JESSEL: I am much obliged to the noble Marquess for his explanation.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 67 agreed to.
Clause 68 [Establishment of councils]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment in my name to this clause is drafting.
Amendment moved —
Page 81, lines 4 and 5, leave out ("appointed day") and insert ("first day of July nineteen hundred and thirty-three")—(The Marquess of Londonderry.) On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 69:
Power to make schemes.
69—(1) For the purpose of giving effect to the foregoing provisions of this Part of this Act, schemes shall be made and may, from time to time, be varied by a committee consisting of six representatives of the Board and two representatives of each of the trades unions.
(2) Any scheme so made may be determined by twelve months' notice given either
1146
by the aforesaid representatives of the Board or by the aforesaid representatives of the trades unions, so however that no notice determining any scheme so made shall be. given before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-four.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, to leave out "thirty-four" and insert "thirty-five." The noble Marquess said: By Clause 68 schemes for the establistment of councils of the officers of the Board and representatives of the Board's employees to whom Part VI of the Bill applies are to be made as soon as may he after the 1st July, 1933. It is obviously undesirable that notice should be given to terminate a scheme until it has had a reasonable time in which to be tested and the effect of the Amendment will be that the 12 months' notice to terminate cannot be given before the 1st January, 1935. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 81, line 35, leave out ("thirty-four") and insert ("thirty-five") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 70 and 71 agreed to.
Clause 72: [Transfer and compensation rights of officers and servants solely or mainly occupied in scheduled undertakings]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:
"() Notwithstanding anything in subsection (1) of this section any person who-

(a) was on the twelfth day of March, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, occupied as an officer or servant in, or in connection with, an undertaking or, as the case may be, a part of an undertaking which has since that date been acquired by, or absorbed in, the undertaking of an authority, company or person specified in the Second Schedule to this Act; and

(b) as a consequence of such acquisition or absorption became an officer or servant of that authority, company or person occupied in, or in connection with, the undertaking or, as the case may be, the part of the undertaking transferred by this Act from that authority, company or person to the Board; and

(c) was immediately before the appointed day an officer or servant of that authority, company or person and solely or mainly so occupied as aforesaid;

shall be deemed to be an existing officer or servant and accordingly the provisions of this section shall apply in relation to him

1147
as they apply in relation to such a person as is mentioned in subsection (1) of this section."
The noble Marquess said: Clause 72, which provides for the transfer of officers and servants of existing undertakings to the Board and secures to them certain rights, is, in accordance with the usual practice in such cases— for example, the Local Government Act, 1929— made applicable only to persons who were employed in the transferred undertaking on the date of introduction of the Bill— March 12, 1931— and immediately before the transfer, or who became employed in the undertaking between those dates as a result of a transfer of duties by their employers in the ordinary course of business. Since the introduction of the Bill some of the smaller undertakings have been absorbed or become amalgamated with other undertakings which will be acquired, and unless the Amendment were made the officers and servants of the absorbed undertakings would not be able to fulfil the conditions of the clause and would therefore not be entitled to its benefits. It appears reasonable that persons who have changed their employment through no fault or choice of themselves, but as a result of amalgamations of the concerns with which they were employed since the introduction of the Bill and who are at the date of transfer employed in a transferred undertaking, should not be disqualified and the Amendment is designed to extend the operation of the clause to such persons. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 86, line 34, at end insert the said new subsection.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 72, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 73 [Transfer and compensation rights of officers and servants occupied in certain other undertakings]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I beg to move the Amendment to this clause in my name, which is an agreed drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 28, leave out ("their") and insert ("its").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 73, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 74 to 78 agreed to.
Clause 79:
Superannuation funds, etc.
(6) Any person, who, being an officer or servant of a transferred company is transferred to and becomes an officer or servant of the Board and who immediately before the appointed day was a member of the Railway Clearing System Superannuation Fund Corporation, may, for the period during which he remains an officer or servant of the Board, continue to be a member of that corporation; and while he so remains a member, he shall be entitled to the same benefits, rights and privileges and subject to the same obligations, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice, as he would have been entitled or subject to, if the undertaking carried on by the company under which he held his office or employment had not been transferred to the Board, and during the said period the obligations of the company under which he held his office or employment, in respect of the corporation so far as relates to that member, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice, shall be binding upon the Board.
(16) Notwithstanding anything contained in this section any person who after the appointed day becomes an officer or servant of the Board may, subject to the consent of the Board and of the managers of the fund or bank in question, become a member of any of the existing benefit funds or a depositor in any of the existing banks.
THE EARL OF RADNOR: The Amendments that I move have one object, that of protecting certain members of the Railway Clearing House System Superannuation Fund Corporation. That Corporation is, like the main lines companies superannuation schemes, a statutory fund to which the companies are bound to contribute. In 1914 the fund was found to be actuarially unsound and by a statutory enactment the subscribing companies were bound to continue contributions for certain old members after the retiring age of sixty till they were sixty-eight— that is, they were bound to continue contributions after some members had ceased to be members because they were in receipt of annuities from the fund. Under the Bill as now drawn apparently that obligation is not transferred to the Transport Board, because it merely lays on them the obligation to contribute so long as the members are members of the Corporation, and not if they cease to be. The first Amendment in my name is purely drafting. The essential Amendments are in subsection (6). One defines

1149
the position of those old members after they retire, and while receiving an annuity, between the ages of sixty and sixty-eight, and implies that they are still for the purpose of the Act members of the Corporation. Another lays on the Transport Board the obligation of considering them as members and paying their contributions. It affects a considerable number of individuals, and it is of importance to them that it should be quite certain that the Transport Board has an obligation to continue the contributions now paid by the companies to be transferred.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble Earl has on the Paper six Amendments, and I feel sure your Lordships will 'agree that he has, as always, developed his case in a very lucid manner. I am very glad to accept the Amendments.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I will put the six Amendments en bloc.
Amendments moved—
Page 93, line 37, after ("Corporation") insert ("(in this subsection referred to as the Corporation ')")
Page93, line 39, after ("Board") insert ("including any period of superannuation after retirement from the service of the Board")
Page93, line 39, leave out ("that") and insert ("the")
Page93, line 40, leave out ("while he") and insert ("any person who, if he had been immediately before the appointed day art officer or servant of a transferred cormpany, would have been transferred to and become an officer or servant of the Board and who at the appointed day is in receipt of a superannuation allowance or annuity from the Corporation, may, for the period during which he would, if this Act had not been passed, have been entitled so to receive a superannuation allowance or annuity, continue to be a member of the Corporation; and while any such person as aforesaid")
Page 94, line 3, leave out ("during the said period") and insert ("while he so remains a member")
Page94, line 4, after ("the") insert ("transferred") —(The Earl of Radnor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 97, line 17, leave out from ("any") to (' officer") in line 18. —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 79, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 80 agreed to.
Clause 81:
Maintenance of transferred undertakings until appointed day.
81 —(1) Each of the undertakings or parts of the undertakings which are to be transferred to the Board by this Act shall, until the appointed day, be maintained and carried on as heretofore in the ordinary course of business in as efficient a condition as usual.
(2) As soon as may he after the accounts of any local authority specified in Part III of the Second Schedule to this Act in respect of the tramway undertaking of that authority for the financial year last preceding the appointed day have been audited in accordance with statutory or other provisions relating to the audit of those accounts, adjustments shall be made between the local authority and the Board on the following basis, that is to say:—

(a) the surplus revenue, if any, of the tramway undertaking, in respect of the period covered by the audit (after meeting all charges properly chargeable to revenue) shall enure to the benefit of the authority; and

(b) the deficiency of revenue, if any, of the tramway undertaking, in respect of that period (after meeting all charges properly chargeable to revenue) shall be borne by the authority; and

(c) any dispute which may arise between the Board and the authority as to any payment to be made in respect of any adjustment under this subsection shall in default of agreement be determined by an arbitrator to be agreed, or to be appointed by the Minister of Health.

(6) For the purpose of securing a proper adjustment as between the Board and each of the companies specified in Part 1 or Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act (other than the South Metropolitan Electric Tramways and Lighting Company, Limited) (which companies are in this section referred to as "transferred companies") in respect of the earnings of those companies during the period commencing on the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, and ending on the day preceding the appointed day (which period is in this section referred to as "the final period") the following provisions shall have effect.
(7) Between the commencement of this Act and the appointed day no sums shall be distributed by any transferred company by way of dividend or otherwise in respect of any part of the final period except such as are certified by an auditor approved by the Minister (in this section referred to as "the approved auditor") as being properly available for distribution as having been

1151
earned in the part of the final period in respect of which the distribution is to he made.
(8) As soon as may be after the appointed day the approved auditor shall ascertain and certify the sums which have been earned (after charging interest on any debenture stock) by each of the transferred companies (other than the Metropolitan Electric Tramways, Limited, and the London United Tramways, Limited) during the final period so as to be properly available for distribution, and have not been distributed before the appointed day (which sums are in this section referred to as "the undistributed earnings").
(9) The auditor, in certifying any sum under this section, shall—
(b) in the case of the London General Omnibus Company, Limited, and in the case of the Tramways (M.E.T.) Omnibus Company, Limited, exclude all sums received by the company during the final period by way of dividend on the shares of any Underground Company in respect of any period before the final period, and shall include all sums payable by way of such dividend in respect of the final period; and
(10) Each of the transferred companies shall, subject to the provisions of subsection (12) of this section, be entitled to retain out of the assets of its undertaking transferred to the Board by this Act a sum sufficient to pay the interest accrued up to the appointed day and unpaid on any debenture stock of the company, and the sum so retained shall be applied by the company in the payment of that interest accordingly.
(11) So soon as the undistributed earnings have been ascertained and certified the Board shall, subject to the provisions of subsection (12) of this section, repay to each of the transferred companies (other than the Metropolitan Electric Tramways, Limited, and the London United Tramways, Limited) the amount of its undistributed earnings.
(12) Where, in pursuance of this section, any sums are to be retained by, or repaid to, any transferred company, there shall be deducted from the sums so to be retained or repaid a sum equal to the Income Tax thereon at the standard rate of Income Tax prescribed by Section fifteen of the Finance Act, 1932.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My first two Amendments in subsection (2) are consequential on the alteration of the date, upon which the tramway undertakings of the local authorities are to be transferred to the Board, from 1st April, 1933, to 1st July, 1933. The accounting year of the local authorities runs from the 1st April to the 31st March in each year, and it therefore becomes necessary
1152
to provide for the preparation of special accounts for the local authority tramway undertakings to cover the period from 1st April to 30th June, 1933, and the apportionment of certain charges, specified in the new paragraph proposed to be inserted after paragraph (2) (c) on page 100, between the local authority and the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 15, leave out from ("the") to ("specified") in line 16 and insert ("appointed day each of the local authorities") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 17, leave out from ("Act") to ("adjustments") in line 21 and insert ("shall cause to be prepared and audited in accordance with the statutory or other provisions relating to the audit of its accounts an account in respect of its tramway undertaking for the period commencing on the first day of April, nineteeen hundred and thirty-three, and ending on the day preceding the appointed day, and upon the completion of the account") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (2), to insert:
" For the purposes of this subsection the charges properly chargeable to revenue shall include the whole or, as the case may be, a proportionate part of any payments made or to be made by the authority on or after the appointed day into any fund established for the redemption of, or in respect of any instalments for the redemption of, or in respect of any interest on, any loan raised by the authority for the purposes of a transferred undertaking according as those payments, if treated as accruing due from day to day, would relate in whole or in part to the period covered by the account."
The noble Marquess said: The object of this Amendment is to ensure that a proportionate part of the contributions to sinking funds and interest on loans for the year shall be charged against the revenues up to the date of transfer.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 38, at end, insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 102, line 5, leave out ("following") after ("provisions") and insert ("of the

1153
next seven succeeding subsections") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment. Moved—
Page 102, line 7, leave out ("commencement") and insert ("passing") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next is a drafting Amendment, but it is put in to snake it clear that the restriction imposed by subsection (7) of Clause 81 upon the distribution of moneys by way of dividend or otherwise by the Underground and Metropolitan Companies does not apply to interest on debenture stocks.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 9, leave out from ("otherwise") to end of subsection (7) and insert ("amongst the; holders of the stocks or shares of the company so, however, that nothing in this subsection shall prevent the payment of interest en any debenture stock of the company as and when it falls due"). —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 102, line 16, leave out from ("daf") to ("the") in line 17 and insert ("there shall he ascertained and certified by an auditor approved by the Minister (in this section referred to as the auditor ')") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: As to the next Amendment, some of the companies to whose dividends subsection (9) (b) should apply are subsidiaries of transferred companies other than the two companies named in the subsection as it stands at present.
Amendment moved—
Page 102, line 33, leave out from ("of "1 to ("exclude") in line 36, and insert ("any of the transferred companies") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 102, line 38, leave out ("Underground") and insert ("other").
Page 102, line 41, after ("of") insert ("any part of") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of subsection (11), to insert the following proviso:
" Provided that, if the auditor is satisfied at any time before the final ascertain-
1154
ment of the undistributed earnings that there will be a sum representing those earnings to be repaid to any company and certifies that a payment on account may properly be made to that company, the Board, on receipt of the auditor's certificate, shall repay to the company the amount so certified as a payment on account of the undistributed earnings to which that company will ultimately become entitled."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is to enable dividends on the preference or ordinary stocks of the Underground and Metropolitan Companies to be paid for the half year ending June 30 next, without necessarily awaiting the final certificate of the approved auditor as to the undistributed earnings of those companies since the date as at which the settlements with them were made (December 31, 1930). If the auditor is satisfied that there will be a sum available for payment of dividends he can certify that a payment on account of the undistributed earnings can be made and the Board will then repay to the company the sum so certified on account of the final settlement to be made under subsection (11).
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 20, at end of subsection (11), insert the said proviso —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 27, leave out from ("expression") to ("specified") in line 28 and insert ("an Underground company 'means a. company") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the clause, to insert the following new subsection:
"() For the purpose of securing a proper adjustment as at the appointed day as between the Board and the South Metropolitan Electric Tramways and Lighting Company Limited (hereinafter in this section referred to as the company ') of current receipts and expenditure on revenue account in respect of the company's tramway and light railway undertaking (hereinafter referred to as the undertaking ') there shall as soon as may be after the appointed day be prepared by the company and certified by an auditor to be appointed by the company and approved by the Minister an apportionment account (which shall be binding and conclusive for all purposes as between the Board and the company) apportioning as between the Board and the company as at the appointed day:—

1155

(a) any payments or receipts by the company in respect of the undertaking which relate in whole or in part to any period after the appointed clay (not being payments made for the purpose of maintaining the undertaking in accordance with subsection (1) of this section); and

(b) any payments or receipts by the Board in respect of the undertaking which relate in whole or in part to any period before the appointed day.

() Within fourteen days after the receipt by the Board of the apportionment account, the balance appearing in the said account, if in favour of the company, shall be paid by the Board to the company, or if in favour of the Board, shall be paid by the company, to the Board."
The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is to provide for the peculiar circumstances of the South Metropolitan Electric Tramways and Lighting Company, which, as its name implies, operated an electricity undertaking, as well as a tramway undertaking. The Bill provides for the transfer of the physical assets of the tramways undertaking of the company only. Since the settlement with this company, it has disposed of its electricity undertaking to the Joint Electricity Authority. As the Board will take over physical assets only provision is necessary for apportioning between the company and the Board, as at the date of transfer, current receipts and expenditure oil revenue account relating to periods which overlap the change of ownership. For example, receipts from advertisements may be received by the company in respect of a period part of which is subsequent to transfer. On the other hand payments such as local rates or rents may be made by the company in respect of a period part of which is subsequent to transfer. The Amendment makes provision for apportioning such payments or receipts so as to secure a proper adjust-merit between the parties. The company will, however, remain liable under subsection (1) of Clause 81 for the maintenance of the undertaking up to the appointed day.
Amendment moved—
Page 103, line 29, at end insert the said subsection —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 81, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 82 and 83 agreed to.
Clause 84 [Pending proceedings and existing contracts]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next three Amendments are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Page 104, line 17, leave out from ("Act") to ("shall") in line 18.
Page 104, line 30, leave out ("transferred undertaking") and insert ("undertaking specified in Parts I, II, III or VI of the Second Schedule to Act")
Page 104, line 31, leave out ("the transferred") and insert ("that") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 84, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 85 agreed to.
Clause 86 [Dissolution of transferred companies]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: This is another agreed Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 105, line 33, leave out ("their") and insert ("its") —(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 86, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 87:
Dissolution of the Underground Electric Railways Company of London Limited and the London and Suburban Traction Company Limited.
87 —(1) Before or as soon as may be after the issue of the transport stock to which the Underground Electric Railways Company of London Limited (hereinafter referred to as "the Underground Company") and the London and Suburban Traction Company Limited (hereinafter referred to as "the London and Suburban Company") respectively, or the trustees under deeds securing the debenture stocks of those companies (in this subsection referred to as "the said trustees") may be entitled by virtue of their interests in the undertakings specified in Part I of the Second Schedule to this Act—

(a) the Underground Company shall apply to the Board to issue to the company or to the said trustees—

(i) in exchange for the "A" stock to which the company or the said trustees may become so entitled, an amount of "B" stock, hearing interest at the rate of five per cent. per annum, of the equivalent nominal value; and

(ii) in exchange for an amount of "C" stock of the nominal value of four million, one hundred and three thousand, seven hundred and fifty-two pounds, an amount of "B" stock, bearing interest at the rate of five per cent. per annum, of the nominal value of three million, eight hundred and fifty-Three thousand, seven hundred and fifty-two pounds

1157
and upon receipt of that application the Board shall issue to the company, or to the said trustees, as the case may be, the amounts of "B" stock so applied for, and the "A" stock and "C 'stock in exchange for which the "B" stock is to be issued shall be surrendered by the company or the said trustees to the Board and shall be cancelled by the Board;

(b) the Board shall transfer as from the appointed day to the Underground Company all the shares of the North Metropolitan Electric Power Supply Company, which become vested in the Board by virtue of the transfer to the Board of the undertaking of the Metropolitan Electric Tramways Limited, and thereupon the Underground Company shall, as consideration for that transfer, pay to the Board a sum equal to the amount at which chose shares were valued for the purpose of fixing the consideration to be given by the Board for the transfer of that undertaking, together with interest on that sum at the rate of five per cent. per annum from the appointed day to the date of payment;

(4) Any arrangements made by the Underground Company with any class of its stockholders or shareholders, or with the holders of Metropaitan District Railway Assented First Preference Stock, or with the holders of Central London Railway Guaranteed Assented Ordinary Preferred Ordinary, or Deferred Ordinary Stocks, or by the London and Suburban Company with any class of its stockholders or shareholders, in anticipation of and with a view to carrying out any of the provisions of this section and which have been conditionally assented to by such holders, respectively, before the passing of this Act shall on their becoming operative be treated for all purposes of this Act as if they were, or formed part of, schemes prepared by those companies respectively under this section.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1) (a), after "upon receipt of that application "to insert" n' in the event of any interest having been previously paid on the A 'or the C' stock to be exchanged, upon receipt of that application together with a refund of any moneys actually received by the Underground Company or by the said, trustees in respect of that interest." The noble Marquess said: Under the settlement with the Underground Companies it is provided that the holding companies (the Underground Electric Railways Company of London, Limited, and the London anti Suburban Traction Company, Limited) shall be wound up and to facilitate this arrangement shall be entitled to exchange "A" transport stock and "C" transport stock to which they will be entitled, through their hold-
1158
ings in the operating companies for "B" transport stock to a less nominal amount. The present amendment is to ensure that if any interest has been paid on the "A" or "C" stock before the exchange is effected, it shall be refunded to the Board. This is necessary because the interest on the B "stock to be issued in exchange will run from the date of transfer of the undertakings of the operating companies.
Amendment moved—
Page 107, line 14, after ("application") insert the said words—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (1) (b), to leave out "and thereupon the Underground Company shall, as consideration for that transfer," and insert "so, however, that, in the case of shares acquired by the Metropolitan Electric Tramways, Limited, before the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-one, any dividend paid on those shares after the appointed day to the Board or to the Underground Company as holders of those shares shall be apportioned between the Board and the Underground Company so as to secure that there shall enure to the Board such portion of the dividend as relates to the period before the appointed day) and upon the transfer being effected the Underground Company as consideration therefor (i) shall "
The noble Marquess said: The Metropolitan Electric Tramways Company own certain shares in the North Metropolitan Electric Power Company, and it was part of the terms of settlement with the former that the Board should take over the shares at a valuation and re-sell them at the same price to the Underground Company on the appointed day. Inasmuch as by Clause 81 (10) the Metropolitan Electric Tramways Company are entitled to retain out of their assets a sum sufficient to pay interest accrued up to the appointed day on their debentures, which is normally paid out of the dividends on their holding of the Power Company's shares, it is necessary to provide that the Board, on transferring the shares to the Underground, should be entitled to retain or have repaid to them so much of the dividends on those shares as relates to the part of the dividend period before the appointed day.
Amendment moved—
Page 107, line 28, leave out from ("Limited") to ("pay"), in line 30 and insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Clause 87, page 107, line 31, leave out ("those shares") and insert ("the shares acquired by the Metropolitan Electric Tramways, Limited, before the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirty-one") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add to subsection (1) (b) "and (ii) shall release and discharge the Board from each and every liability to which the Board may or may have become subject by virtue of the transfer to the Board of the undertaking of the Metropolitan Electric Tramways Limited in respect of any loan made to that company by the Underground Company for the purpose of, or any other indebtedness of that company towards the Underground Company incurred by reason of acquiring any of those shares after the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-one."
The noble Marquess said: As explained in connection with the Amendment already moved in line 28 on page 107 of the Bill, the Metropolitan Electric Tramways Company own shares in the North Metropolitan Electric Power Company. This Amendment is necessary machinery to ensure that no liability shall attach to the Board in respect of any further purchases of such shares by the Tram ways Company.
Amendment moved—
Page 107, line 36, after ("payment") insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY had an Amendment on the Paper, after subsection (3), to insert:
" Where in respect of any stock issued under this subsection the purchase price is paid to the Board at any time after the appointed day, the company to whom the stock is issued shall pay to the Board an additional sum by way of interest calculated on the nominal value of the stock subscribed for at the rate of five per cent. Per
1160
annum from the appointed day until the date of payment of the purchase price."
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAAIE: I have an Amendment to my noble friend's Amendment which, I understand, he is prepared to accept — to substitute "which" for "whom."
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Will the noble Marquess move his Amendment in the manner as proposed to be amended by Lord Bertie?
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I will move my Amendment with the alteration suggested by my noble friend. In addition to the exchange of "A" and "C" stock for "B" stock for which provision is made in Clause 87, subsection (1), the Underground and London and Suburban Traction Companies will have the right by subsection (3) to subscribe for additional "B" stock to a total nominal value of £ 1,850,000. As the interest on this "B" stock will run from the date of the transfer of the undertakings of the operating companies to the Board, provision is made by this Amendment that the companies shall pay to the Board interest at 5 per cent from the date of such transfer until the payment of the purchase price.
Amendment moved—
Page 110, line 6, at end insert:
("Where in respect of any stock issued under this subsection the purchase price is paid to the Board at any time after the appointed day, the company to which the stock is issued shall pay to the Board an additional sum by way of interest calculated on the nominal value of the stock subscribed for at the rate of five per cent. per annum from the appointed clay until the date of payment of the purchase price") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON moved, in subsection (4), to leave out "on their becoming operative" and insert "subject to such adjustment of dates as may be certified by the Secretary of the Underground Company, or of the London and Suburban Company, as the case may be, to be necessary by reason of the appointed day under this Act being on a day later than the first day of January, nineteen hundred and thirty-two." The noble Lord said: This is merely a consequential Amendment with regard to the appointed day. The only object of the words is to prevent

1161
further meetings of the companies and the shareholders concerned.
Amendment moved—
Page 110, lines 18 and 19, leave out ("on their becoming operative") and insert the said words —(Lord Newton.)
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This is really a domestic matter in regard to the holding company. We are willing to accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments are drafting and consequential.
Amendments moved—
Page 110, line 43, after ("otherwise") insert ("are")
Page 112, line 4, after ("accordingly") insert ("and the expression the appointed day means the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 87, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 88 [Provisions as to certain stocks of the Metropolitan Railway Company]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 113, line 30, leave out ("their") and insert ("its") —(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I have two drafting Amendments here.
Amendments moved—
Page 116, line 21, after ("entitled") insert ("subject to the provisions of this section").
Page 116, line 32, after the second ("shall") insert ("subject to the provisions of this section") —(The Marquess of Londonderry..)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after subsection (19), to insert the following new subsection:
" () Where the amount of transport stock to which any registered holder of assented stock would be entitled under subsection (15) or subsection (16) of this section comprises a fractional part of a pound, the trustees shall, in lieu of transferring that amount, transfer to that holder transport stock to the amount of the next even Hound below the amount to which he would be so entitled and shall from time to time
1162
as convenient sell the amount of transport stock representing the fractional parts of transport stock not so transferred and shall distribute the net proceeds thereof in due proportions amongst the several holders who, but for this provision would have been entitled to the fractional parts."
The noble Marquess said: The Amendment, which is merely a matter of machinery, is designed to enable the Trustees to avoid the inconvenience attendant upon the transfer of stock in multiples of less than £ 1. They will transfer stock to the nearest pound below the appropriate amount and pay the odd fraction of a pound in cash by disposing of the stock.
Amendment moved—
Page 117, line 24, at end insert the said subsection —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 118, line 29, at end insert ("The appointed day 'means the first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three").(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 88, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 89 and 90 agreed to.
Clause 91:
Valuation for rating purposes of hereditaments occupied by the Board.
91 —(1) The provisions of this section shall apply in relation to the valuation for rating purposes of any hereditament which—
(3) The Minister of Health may, by a scheme made and approved in accordance with the provisions of the Fifteenth Schedule to this Act, apply the provisions of the Act of 1930, with such adaptations and modifications as may appear to he necessary, to the railways forming part of the undertaking of they Board or to any of them.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 119, line 14, after ("of") insert ("the next following subsection of").(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "railways forming part of the undertaking of the Board or to any of them "and insert" Board in respect of so much

1163
of their undertaking as would be their undertaking for the purposes of the Act of 1930 if they were a railway company within the meaning of that Act with the addition of so much of their undertaking as consists in a tramway undertaking, or in respect of any less part of their undertaking as so limited." The noble Marquess said: Subsection (3) of Clause 91 in the Bill as originally introduced enabled the Minister of Health to apply the provisions of the Railways (Valuation for Rating) Act, 1930, to the whole of the undertaking of the Board. By an amendment made by the Joint Select Committee, the power of applying these provisions was limited to the railways of the Board. The Act of 1930 set up the Railway Assessment Authority charged with the duty of valuing the undertakings of each of the amalgamated railway companies and of the Metropolitan Railway Company as a whole and provided that the method of valuation (known as valuation in cumulo) could be applied by a scheme approved by the Minister of Health. As the result of representations made by the Railway Assessment Authority and the local rating authorities concerned, it has been decided that such parts of the undertaking of the Board should be capable of being brought within the scheme of valuation in cumulo as would be the case if the Board were a railway company, with the addition of the Board's tramway and trolley vehicle undertakings. The method of valuation in cumulo involves valuation on the basis of profits and this basis has never been applied to omnibus or motor-coach businesses. The main object of the amendment made by the Joint Select Committee was, therefore, to exclude the omnibus and motor coach undertakings of the Board from the valuation in cumulo and this object is secured by the present Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 120, line 12, leave out from ("the") to end of subsection (3) and insert the said new words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 91, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 92 agreed to.
Clause 93 [Protection for Great Western Railway Company]:
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: The two Amendments in my name are drafting Amendments and have been agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 122, line 38, leave out ("were") and insert ("was").
Page 123, line 5, leave out ("their") and insert ("its") —(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 93, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 94 to 96 agreed to.
Clause 97 [Provisions as to undertaking of Surplus Lands Committee]:
THE DUKE OF ATHOLL: The Amendments standing in my name are merely drafting Amendments to make the intention of Clause 97 clear. The Amendments are purely domestic, and in no way affect the Board. Unless your Lordships wish me to go further into the matter, I propose to move them en bloc as one is consequential on the other.
Amendments moved—
Page 125, line 40, at end insert ("but not including such a sum of money as may be required for the distribution and payment of interest under subsection (15) of this section").
Page 129, line 7, at end insert ("except so far as may be necessary for giving effect to the provisions of subsection (15) of this section").
Page 129, line 7, at end insert the following new subsections:—
" (15) Notwithstanding anything in any special Act relating to the Surplus Lands Committee regulating the accounts of the Committee or prescribing the date at which and the period in respect of which interest on Surplus Lands Stock shall be paid:—

(a) the accounts of the Surplus Lands Committee shall be made out for the period ending on the day immediately preceding the prescribed date and shall be duly audited;

(b) the Surplus Lands Committee shall be at liberty to distribute by way of payment of interest on the Surplus Lands Stock amongst the persons who were immediately before the prescribed date the registered holders of that stock a sum not exceeding the balance of the net income which has arisen from the Surplus Lands as shown in the accounts so made up and audited; and

(c) the residue (if any) of such balance of net income after such distribution and payment together with all interest earned after the prescribed date by the sum re-

1165
quired for such distribution and payment shall be carried to the credit of the profit and loss account of the limited company.

(16) The amount standing at the prescribed date to the credit of the reserve for repairs and contingencies of the Surplus Lands Committee shall be carried to the credit of a reserve for repairs and contingencies of the limited company.
(17) The limited company shall if so required by the Surplus Lands Committee repay to that committee such sum as may be sufficient to enable the committee to discharge any liability of the committee in respect of Income Tax."—(The Duke of Atholl.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 130, line 14, after ("date") insert ("were") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 97, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 98 [Sale of part of undertaking to Southern Railway Company]:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is also drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 130, line 26, leave out ("appointed day") and insert ("first day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-three"—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 98, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 99 to 104 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after Clause 104, to insert the following new clause:
Custody of lost property.
"— () The Minister may by regulations make provision for the safe custody and redelivery or disposal of any property accidentally left on or in any premises or vehicles belonging to the Board and for fixing the charges to be made by the Board in respect thereof."
The noble Marquess said: Under the existing law, property left in the railway carriages of the Underground and Metropolitan Railway Companies is retained by the companies themselves and not handed over to the Police. Property left in the vehicles of Green Line Coaches Limited and other motor coaches which will be transferred to the Board is also retained by the operators in accordance with regulations made by
1166
the Minister under Section 94(j) of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. Property left in omnibuses— that is, "short stage carriages" within the meaning of Section 99 of the Road Traffic Act— is handed over to the Police in accordance with the requirements of Section 11 of the London Hackney Carriage Act, 1853, and the Secretary of State's Stage Carriage Order made in pursuance of Section 9 of the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act, 1869. Property left in tramcars and trolley vehicles is also handed over to the Police in accordance with Section 11 of the Act of 1853. It is desired that property left in any of the Board's vehicles, whether in railway carriages, tramcars, trolley vehicles, stage, express or contract carriages should be dealt with on uniform lines by the Board itself. It is necessary to repeal Section 11 of the Act of 1853 so far as it relates to any of the vehicles of the Board and this is proposed in a later Amendment.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 104 insert the said new clause —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 105:
Interpretation.
105 —(1) In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the following expressions have the meanings hereby assigned to them respectively—
(4) Where the property vested in the Board on the transfer to the Board by virtue of this Act of any of the undertakings specified in Part I of the Second Schedule to this Act includes the whole of the share capital of any company carrying on a passenger transport undertaking (not being a company specified in the said Part I), the undertaking so carried on shall form part of the-undertaking of the Board and for the purposes of paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of Section five and of subsection (l) of Section five and of Part VII and of Sections eighty-one to eighty-six of this Act, both inclusive, shall be deemed to be an undertaking specified in the said Part I, so however that for the purposes of the winding up of any such company and of distributing any cash or other liquid assets retained by the company or paid by the Board to the company by virtue of subsection (8) or subsection (9) of Section eighty-one of this Act the share capital of that company shall he deemed to be excluded from the transfer to the Board.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment postpones the date of transfer of the local authority tramway undertakings to the Board from

1167
April 1, 1933, to July 1, 1933— that is the date on which the Underground and Metropolitan undertakings will be transferred. It would be inconvenient, if not impracticable, that the transfer of the tramway undertakings of the Local Authorities should take effect before the Board is established and, in view of the possibility that the Board may not be in existence by the 1st of April, it is proposed by the Amendment that the date of transfer should be postponed to July 1, 1933.
Amendment moved—
Page 132, line 80, leave out ("April") and insert ("July") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next two Amendments on the Paper fix the date for the transfer of the Underground and Metropolitan Undertakings to the Board as the 1st of July, 1933.
Amendments moved—
Page 132, line 37, leave out ("January") and insert ("July") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
Page 132, line 38, leave out from ("thirty-three") to end of line 41 —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 133, line 6, leave out ("January") and insert ("July") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 133, line 15, leave out from ("the") to end of paragraph (d) and insert ("thirtieth day of June nineteen hundred and thirty-three") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after subsection (1), to insert:
" () For the purposes of the provisions of this Act relating to the interest on transport stock, or to the application of the revenues of the Board, or to the reserve fund, or to the tramway debt liquidation fund, or to the accounts of the Board and their audit, or to the new assented stock referred to in subsection (2) of Section eighty-seven of this Act, and for the purposes of Section
1168
eighty-eight of this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression year 'means the period commencing on the first day of July and ending on the succeeding thirtieth day of June and the expressions annually,' annual,' per annum,' half-yearly 'and yearly' shall be construed accordingly."
The noble Marquess said: As by earlier Amendments the 1st of July, 1933, has been fixed as the date for the transfer to the Board of the Underground and Metropolitan undertakings and as the earliest date upon which the tramway undertakings of the local authorities can be transferred, it becomes necessary to define the expression "year" for the purposes mentioned in the Amendment as the year commencing on the 1st July and ending on the 30th June.
Amendment moved—
Page 135, line 11, at end insert the said new subsection —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to leave out subsection (4). The noble Marquess said: Subsection (4) of Clause 105 was designed to ensure that the undertakings of certain motor-coach companies, the whole of whose share capital is owned by any of the Underground undertakings specified in Part I of the Second Schedule, shall be transferred to and form part of the undertaking of the Board. It is considered that the position and intention will be made more clear by deleting subsection (4) arid adding the names of all the subsidiary companies to Part I of the Second Schedule. This is being done by a later Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 135, line 35, leave out subsection (4) —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 105, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Constitution and Proceedings of Appointing Trustees.
1. The representative of the Advisory Committee shall be selected by that committee from amongst the members of the committee appointed by local authorities or groups of local authorities and shall hold office as such representative for a term of three years. Notice of the appointment of such representative shall be given by the committee to the Minister.
2. The Minister shall take such steps as may be necessary as soon as may be after the passing of this Act for summoning the first meeting of the Appointing Trustees.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, in the first paragraph, to leave out the first "The" and insert "Subject to the provisions of this Schedule, the."The noble Marquess said: This Amendment and a subsequent Amendment to be moved at the end of the Schedule, provides that the first representative of the London and Home Counties Traffic Advisory Committee on the Appointing Trustees shall be appointed by the local authority representatives on the Committee as constituted at the date of the passing of the Bill. This is necessary to ensure that there should be no avoidable delay in establishing the Board. Several weeks must necessarily elapse before the Advisory Committee can be re-constituted as provided in Clause 58 and the Twelfth Schedule to the Bill. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 137, line 5, leave out the first ("The") and insert ("Subject to the provisions of this Schedule the") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of the second paragraph after "Trustees," to insert "and shall thereafter summon meetings of the Appointing Trustees whenever it is in his opinion expedient that meetings should be held." The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is necessary because it is desirable and convenient that machinery should exist for summoning meetings of the Appointing Trustees when necessary, and this duty can be most appropriately discharged by the Minister.
Amendment moved—
Page 137, line 13, after ("Trustees") insert ("and shall thereafter summon meetings of the Appointing Trustees whenever it is in his opinion expedient that meetings should be held") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add at the end of the First Schedule the following new paragraph:
"() The representative of the Advisory Committee first appointed under this Act as such representative shall be selected by that Committee as constituted on the passing of this Act from amongst the members of the committee then in office appointed
1170
by local authorities or groups of local authorities and shall hold office until his successor is appointed by the Advisory Committee as reconstituted under this Act. Notice of the appointment of such representative shall he given by the committee to the Minister."
The noble Marquess said: This is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 137, line 33, at end insert the said paragraph —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule:

SECOND SCHEDULE.

  PART I.
  The Underground undertakings.
  (1) The undertakings owned by the following undertakers: —
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of paragraph (1), to add
  " Acme Pullman Services Limited, Bucks Expresses (Watford) Limited, Green Line Coaches Limited, Skylark Motor Coach Company Limited."
  The noble Marquess said: These are the subsidiary motor coach companies to which I referred on the Amendment to delete subsection (4) of Clause 105.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 138, line 19, at end insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to
  Third Schedule:

THIRD SCHEDULE.
Issue of Transport Stock to Companies owning the Underground Undertakings and distribution of that stock.
PART I.
The amount of stock to be issued to the several companies owning the underground undertakings shall, subject to the reduction for which provision is made by the proviso to subsection (1) of Section seven of this Act, be as follows and of the following classes: —

PART III.
Constitution of the Central London (New) Guaranteed Assented Stock.
4. The interest received by the said trustees in any year in respect of the "C" transport stock to which they become so entitled shall be applied by the said trustees as follows: —

1171

(a) to the payment of interest at the fixed rate of four per cent. per annum on the new assented stock;

(b) as to forty per cent. of the balance, to the payment of additional interest on the new assented stock; and

(c) as to sixty per cent. of the balance, in repayment to the Board.

5. The holders of the new assented stock may at their option, to be exercised within six months from the date of the issue of that stock, surrender to the said trustees the whole or any part of the stock so issued to them and receive in exchange from the said trustees £ 92 10s of "C" transport stock held by the said trustees for every £ 100 of new assented stock so surrendered.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of Part 1, to insert:

" Acme Pullman Services, Limited.

Nil. (Consideration included in consideration given to London General Omnibus Company, Limited)."

Bucks Expresses (Wat-ford), Limited.

Green Line Coaches, Limited.

Skylark Motor Coach Company, Limited.

The noble Marquess said: This is consequential on the Amendment adding the names these motor coach companies to Part 1 of the Second Schedule. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 142, line 46, at end insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 146, line 30, leave out ("in any year in respect of") and insert ("in respect of any year on") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next three Amendments in my name are drafting. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 146, line 33, after ("interest") insert ("for that year").
Page 146, line 36, after ("interest") insert ("for that year").
Page 147, line 2, after ("and") insert (` shall thereupon subject as hereinafter provided be entitled to") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, at the end of paragraph 5 of Part III, to insert:
" Provided that, where the amount of transport stock to which a person would be so entitled comprises a fractional part of a pound, the said trustees shall, in lieu of transferring the amount, transfer to that person transport stock to the amount of the next even pound below the amount to which he would be so entitled and shall, as soon as may be after the expiration of the said six months, sell the amount of transport stock representing the fractional parts of transport stock not so transferred and shall distribute the net proceeds thereof in due proportions amongst the several holders who, but for this provision, would have been entitled to the fractional parts."
The noble Marquess said: Provision has already been made in the Fifth Schedule to enable the Board to avoid issuing transport stocks in amounts including a fraction of a pound. The holders of certain assented stock of the Central London Railway (one of the Underground Group) have the right to exchange their existing holdings into a new assented stock but by paragraph 5 of Part III of the Third Schedule may, within six months convert their assented stock into "C" stock at the rate of £ 92 10s. for every £ 100 of assented stock. As this would involve creation of holdings of "C" stock including fractions of a pound, the Amendment provides that the Trustees of the assented stock may exchange "C" stock to the nearest pound below and sell the fractional parts and pay cash to the holders out of the proceeds. A similar course was taken in connection with the amalgamations under the Railways Act, 1921. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 147, line 4, after ("surrendered") insert the said proviso —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to. Fourth Schedule:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 148, line 18, column 1, leave out ("1914") —(The Marquess of Londonderry).
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Fifth Schedule:
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The Amendment in this Schedule in my name is drafting. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 151, line 6, after ("accordingly") insert ("in one or more distributions").(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fifth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Sixth Schedule:
SIXTH SCHEDULE.
Issue of Transport Stock to Certain Local Authorities.
The amount and class of transport stock to be issued to the local authorities specified in this Schedule shall be as follows: —

Name of Local Authority.

Amoant and class of Stock to be issued.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to add: "The mayor, aldermen and burgesses of the County Borough of Wrest Ham … £ 2281,036 L.A. Stock." The noble Marquess said: This amendment prescribes the amount of "L.A." Stock to be issued to the Corporation of West Ham as consideration for the transfer of their tramway undertaking to the Board. The amount represents the estimated outstanding debt of the undertaking at the 31st March, 1933, less a sum of £ 10,077 representing the outstanding debt on certain minor properties excluded from the transfer.
Amendment moved—
Page 152, line 10, at end insert the said words —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Sixth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Seventh Schedule agreed to.
Eighth Schedule:

EIGHTH SCHEDULE.

  PART II.
  Rules for Determining the Price to be Paid.
  3. Except in the case of the Eastern National Omnibus Company Limited, the allowance to be made in respect of goodwill shill he ascertained by multiplying by five the average net profits of the part of the undertaking taken user ascertained in the following manlier: —

  (a) there shall he ascertained in the case of each company the average net profits
  1174
  per car mile from the operation of stage and express carriages, or in the case of the Maidstone and District Motor Services Limited, of public service vehicles for the three financial years last preceding the date of the passing of this Act, (after meeting all proper charges including adequate provision for the replacement or renewal of all assets subject to depreciation or obsolescence, which provision shall in the case of vehicles be calculated at the rate of twelve and one half per cent. per annum on the first cost);

  VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME had on the Paper six Amendments to this Schedule to leave out the word "per" ["per car mile"] and to insert in its place the words "for each." The noble Viscount said: Surely, "per mile" reads more like a quotation from a grocer's price list than from an Act of Parliament. Such an atrocity appeared in the form of "per day" in another Act and the Minister in charge of the Bill was good enough to rectify such an abortion. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 155, line 5, leave out ("per") and insert ("for each") —(Viscount Bertie of Thame.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The words "per car mile" are well understood by operators of means of transport and by statisticians and accountants, and are practically a term of art. To alter them as proposed by this Amendment might lead to confusion and misunderstanding.
  VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: A good many words are understood by the various people the noble Marquess has mentioned which would not be put into an Act of Parliament because they would not be fit.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: It is felt that if we accepted the words of the noble Viscount they would lead to confusion and misunderstanding, therefore I am unable to accept his Amendment.
  On Question, Amendment negatived.
  Eighth Schedule agreed to.
  Ninth Schedule [Provisions with respect to the Railway Rates Tribunal]:
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after paragraph 1, to insert:
  " () An additional member of the tribunal shall hold office for such term not less than three years nor longer than seven

  1175
  years as the Minister may determine at the time of his appointment but on vacating his office after expiration of the term thereof he shall be eligible for re-appointment.
  () If an additional member becomes, by reason of illness or other infirmity, temporarily incapable of performing the duties of his office, or if the office of an additional member is vacated before the expiration of his term of office, the Minister may appoint some other fit person with the like qualifications and, in the case of the additional member appointed after consultation with the Advisory Committee, after the like consultation, to discharge his duties during such incapacity or pending the filling up of such vacancy for any period not exceeding six months at one time and the person so appointed shall during that period have the same powers as the additional member in whose place he is appointed."
  The noble Marquess said: For the purposes of their jurisdiction under this Bill there will be added to the Railway Rates Tribunal two additional members one being experienced in London local government and the other in financial affairs. The additional paragraphs to be added by this Amendment provide as to their duration of office (not less than three or more than seven years). They also provide for filling a temporary vacancy due to illness of an additional member on his vacation of office.
  Amendment movedߞ
  Page 156, line 25, at end insert the said paragraphs —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
  LORD JESSEL: May I ask the noble Marquess whether these members of the tribunal will be honorary or will they be paid?
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: These additional members, I am informed, are not paid.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 156, line 27, after ("twenty-two") insert ("Section twenty-four except subsection (4) thereof") —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Tenth, Eleventh, Twelfth, and Thirteenth Schedules agreed to.
  Fourteenth Schedule [Provisions as to Determination of Compensation, Payable to Officers and Servants]:
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved, after paragraph 6, to insert the following new paragraph:
  "() In the case of an officer or servant of any other undertaking transferred in whole or in part to the Board by this Act (other than the Metropolitan undertaking), the Board or the arbitrator in computing the length of his service for the purposes of the award of compensation shall take into account all his service after the age of eighteen years, being continuous service whether with the undertaking or part of the undertaking, as the case may be, in whose service he was immediately before the appointed day or with any other passenger transport undertaking which has been acquired by, or absorbed in, that undertaking."
  The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is designed to meet a point raised by Sir Stafford Cripps during the Committee stage of the Bill in another place. It will require the Board or the arbitrator in computing length of service for the purposes of compensation to count continuous service with the undertaking from whom the person was transferred to the Board and any other undertaking which has been acquired by or absorbed in that undertaking. I beg to move.
  Amendment moved—
  Page 167, line 2, at end insert the said paragraph —(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
  LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to amend the proposed Amendment by leaving out the first "by" and inserting "or discontinued by or in pursuance of.' The noble Lord said: do not know if the noble Marquess can accept this Amendment. My object is merely to make the wording in consonance with the wording of Clause 73 (b) which reads: —
  "£ the running of any service which the company is required to discontinue, or ii) between the said date and the date of such transfer to the Board or discontinuance.£
  The words which I propose to insert are: "discontinued by or in pursuance of." Perhaps the noble Marquess will be good enough, if he cannot deal with the matter now, to consider the matter before Report and in that case I could put the Amendment down again.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved£
  Line 2, leave out ("by") and insert ("or discontinued by or in pursuance of")—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: In form, I am given to understand, this Amendment is incorrect, for there are no undertakings being discontinued by or in pursuance of this Act. The Government Amendment to the Fourteenth Schedule which Lord Ponsonby seeks to amend, deals merely with the manner in which length of service shall be computed for the purpose of an award in respect of a claim for compensation made under the provisions of Clauses 72 and 73 of the Bill. I am not sure that I fully apprehend at what the noble Lord is aiming in his Amendment, and I suggest that he might communicate with me before the Report, stage so that if need be the point can be dealt with then.
  LORD PONSONBY of SHULBREDE: After what the noble Marquess has said I will withdraw my Amendment.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved to leave out of the proposed Amendment all words after "years" and to insert "during which lie has been regularly employed in or about any undertakings which have provided passenger transport services within the area comprised in the London Passenger Transport Area." The noble Lord said: This point, as the noble Marquess has stated, was raised by my right honourable friend Sir Stafford Cripps in another place, but the Amendment which the noble Marquess has put on the Paper does not to my mind quite satisfactorily carry out the promise made by the Attorney-General. I would draw the attention of the noble Marquess to the wording of a similar Schedule to the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1926. The Fourth Schedule to that Act provides that:
  "£ in computing the period of service of any officer, service under any authorised undertakers shall be reckoned as service under the authorised undertaker in whose employment he is at the time when the loss or relinquishment of employment occurs £"
  The Amendment proposed by the noble Marquess covers those members of the staff who are transferred because their employer has transferred his undertaking, but there are cases of employees who find situations with other concerns to better their positions and have there-
  1178
  fore transferred their activities of their own volition without any break of service. It is in order to cover those people that I beg to move this Amendment.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment moved—
  Line 6, leave out from ("years") to end and insert ("during which he has been regularly employed in or about any undertakings which have provided passenger transport service within the area comprised in the London Passenger Transport Area") —(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)
  THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: This Amendment which the noble Lord has moved is, as he says, similar to, one moved by Sir Stafford Cripps, but I think he will remember that on that occasion the Attorney-General expressly said that the Amendment went too far. I gather from what the noble Lord has said that he does not think that in this Amendment the undertaking which the Attorney-General gave has been fully implemented. I will certainly go into that matter between now and the Report stage. The object of the Government Amendment is to secure that persons who have changed their employment since the introduction of the Bill merely through a change in the legal character of their employers, brought about by an amalgamation or absorption, shall be able to count service prior to the amalgamation or absorption as being continuous with their service after that event. Lord Ponsonby's Amendment would extend this privilege to all regular employment with any passenger transport undertaking in the London area and would thus enable men who had changed their employment for reasons of their own or through dismissal to claim compensation on the basis of their aggregate service. The provisions of the Bill as to compensation are based generally on the precedents of the Railways Act, 1921, and the Local Government Act, 1929, and it is not considered that the principles of those Acts in this connection should be further extended. I shall be very glad if the noble Lord will communicate with me before the Report stage and he can raise the matter again then if necessary.
  LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: I am very much obliged to the noble Marquess. I am sure he will agree with me that we want to avoid any chance of

  1179
  hardship in the case of those employees who have to be dismissed. I beg leave to withdraw.
  Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  On Question, Amendment agreed to.
  Fourteenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
  Fifteenth Schedule agreed to.
  Sixteenth Schedule:

SIXTEENTH SCHEDULE.
Enactments repealed.

Session and Chapter.

Short Title.

Extent of Repeal.

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY moved to insert, at the beginning:

"16 & 17 Vict. c. 33.

The London HackneyCarriageAct,1853.

Section eleven, so far as relates to velicles of the Bord."

The noble Marquess said: This Amendment repeals the provisions in the Act of 1853 which requires that property left in omnibuses and tramcars in the Metropolis shall be handed over to the Police. Tinder the new clause which has been moved to follow Clause 104 of the Bill, all property left in the vehicles of the Board (railway carriages, tramcars, omnibuses or motor-coaches) will be dealt with on uniform lines by the Board.
Amendment moved—
Page 169, line 4, at end insert:

("16&17Vict.c.33.

The London Hackeny Carriage Act,1853.

Section eleven, so far as relates to vehicles of the Board.") —

(The Marquess of Londonderry.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The next Amendment is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 169, leave out lines 12 to 14, and insert:

("23 Geo. 5, c.2.

Expiring Laws Continuance Act,1932.

In Part I of the Schedule, the reference to the London Traffic Act,1924.").—

(The Marquess of Londonderry.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Sixteenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

LABOUR CONDITIONS OF LORRY DRIVERS.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL THE EARL OF KINNOULL rose to draw the attention of His Majesty's Government to recent disclosures in the Press, and to move to resolve, That in the opinion of this House further legislation should be introduced to regulate the hours and conditions of employment of drivers of heavy lorries and steam wagons. The noble Earl said: My Lords, I do not think I need apologise for introducing this subject because many of your Lordships are keenly alive to all subjects relating to safety on the roads. The disclosures referred to in the Motion were made in Reynolds's Illustrated News.I mention that because I think some of your Lordships do not take that newspaper and may not have seen the disclosures. For the past three weeks this newspaper has given instances of what I can only say are the scandalous hours worked by drivers of heavy lorries— hours that can only be described as akin to slavery. Your Lordships will no doubt say: What of the Road Traffic Act, which lays down the period for which a person may be continuously driving and also the total of hours for one day? These periods are five and a-half hours and eleven hours respectively. The Act also provides that representations may be made jointly by employers and trade unions for variations. This was done in March, 1931, and with regard to goods and vehicles an extension was permitted to twelve hours on two days of the week on condition that a man was a weekly servant and had during the week a complete twenty-four hours free from duty. Experience has proved that nobody takes the slightest notice of this provision of the Act.
Some two years ago the Transport and General Workers' Union made representations to the Home Office, and the Home Office—I think Sir John Anderson was permanent Under-Secretary— said they were very sorry but they had nothing to do with it, and would the union go to the Ministry of Transport. I understand that the union representatives went to the Ministry of Transport and were then re-

1181
ferred back to the Home Office, a sort of Box and Cox affair. I would like to quote from the Record, which is the official organ of the Transport and General Workers' Union, what happened with regard to the variations two years ago. This organ states:
" Two years ago, after discussions with the employers, we agreed to go with them jointly to the Industrial Court and make application for variations, and as a result of these joint representations an Order was issued by the Minister varying the periods. On the employers' side was an imposing list of associations, the members of which were mainly ancillary users. We had in mind at the time that it was desirable to bring about more effective organisation in the industry, and to establish machinery which would deal with questions arising from time to time, and also agree rates; and conditions to apply to the industry. But immediately the Order for Variations had been secured from the Minister, the employers adopted the attitude that the whole business for which there had been joint consultation was completed, and no further conference took place."
I make bold to say that the hours worked to-day are absolutely scandalous. Men are required to go out with a load from one side of England to the other, to discharge the load when they arrive and to pick up another load and return immediately. No time is allowed for sleep at all. Let me quote one case. A lorry was sent from Kent to Birmingham; it arrived at Birmingham, discharged the load and immediately it picked up another and returned. That took the man 43 hours without sleep. The result was that coming through Dartford the man went to sleep at the wheel and there was a slight accident. The magistrate fined the man £ 10 10s. As he left the Court he was asked by an inspector of police if he would give evidence as to the hours of work against his employers. He agreed and was taken back into Court, but was warned by the inspector that if he did give evidence he rendered himself liable to a penalty of £ 25 for aiding and abetting his employers. Naturally the man, having been fined £ 10 10s., was not going to run that risk; and the employers will not pay these fines. The employers state that they are blackmailed by the fear of their employees giving evidence against them, but I think the boot is on the other leg, with this threat of a penalty of £ 25.
Your Lordships may ask why the men do it, but there are hundreds and thousands of drivers who are out of work
1182
and if one gets the sack to-night there are twenty-five waiting to jump into his seat to-morrow. As I said on the Second Reading of the Road Traffic (Speedometer) Bill, I visited what is called a "doss-house" near Doncaster, and I was appalled by the statements of these drivers. I was told that few of them ever averaged more than four and a-half hours per week in bed, and that by the time they reached their destination they do not get time even for meals; that on many occasions they have to munch a sandwich or something as they are driving along. Some of your Lordships no doubt know the tremendous strain caused by driving long distances. If the noble Earl, Lord Howe, was here, I am sure he would agree. I have myself done a certain amount of long-distance driving and many times I have had to pinch my ears so as to keep awake till I could find the nearest hotel. How much worse it must be on one of these slow-trundling lorries! Moreover, I had no governor to give me the sack if I did not arrive on time.
Apart from the slavery of working the men without sleep, which rather savours of the days when boys had to climb chimneys and work fifteen hours a day, I would like to appeal to the House on the grounds of safety. I know here I shall have the sympathy of large numbers of your Lordships. How can a man who is almost dropping from lack of sleep control a death-dealing machine of far more power than the private car? Think of a big lorry driver falling asleep, perhaps when he is going into London just at a rush hour; he might run into an omnibus and goodness knows how many might be killed or injured. I would like to quote a few cases of what is happening. Here is one. A man had been driving without sleep for forty-three hours and pulled up at the side of a road to have a sleep in his cab. He was found by a policeman and moved on, and the result was that a few miles off he drove into a river from which he had to be rescued by a passing motorist.
This is another case taken from the Record— it is headed "Another Firm fined for over-working a lorry driver":
" We would call attention to another case of a firm being prosecuted for overworking their lorry drivers. We feel that if heavy fines were imposed in all cases where the law is broken it would help to improve considerably the conditions of road transport workers.
The following report of the case is extracted from The Times, October 21, 1932: —

'LORRY DRIVERS' HOURS.
Heavy fines for overworking.
Fines amounting to over £ 90 were imposed on Commercial Roadways, Ltd., of Southlands Road, Bromley, Kent, Leslie Alexander Knight, Director, and Frank Golding, Manager of the Company, at the Tower Bridge Police Court yesterday, for overworking a lorry driver in their employ.'"
It goes on to say that Mr. Melville prosecuted, and Mr. Vine defended. At a previous hearing Mr. Melville stated that on some occasions Crouch worked as long as thirty-nine hours at a stretch.
" The Act stipulated that no driver of this type of vehicle should drive for more than 5½ hours at a time, or for more than an aggregate of eleven hours in twenty-four. Mr. Vine submitted that if the section was strictly enforced it would drive many small contractors out of business. Even if an employer allowed his men money to put up at an inn, in most cases they pocketed the money and slept in the cabin of the lorry for a couple of hours by the roadside.… Mr. Metcalfe, the magistrate, said it was a very serious case from the public point of view. One could imagine these drivers of big, six-wheeled lorries driving along the public roads, stupefied for the want of sleep, through these regulations being broken, and nothing could be too strong in condemning it, as in that state they were a menace to the public. All the defendants would he fined on each of the three summonses against them, for allowing a lorry driver to drive for more than an aggregate of eleven hours."
Now, my Lords, here is another case of a lorry driver who only went to bed once a week. It says:
" Astounding revelations of a lorry driver's long hours at the wheel were made at the Canterbury Police Court on July 16, when D. H. George, trading as the Kent Farmers' Transport Company, was summoned under Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act with unlawfully causing H. R. N. Birch to drive a motor vehicle for continuous periods.… Mr. Birch stated in evidence that he was employed by defendant to drive a six-wheeled Ford to farms round Canterbury, and then on to the London markets. On February 15 he started work at 4 p.m., picked up his load, left Canterbury at 11 p.m. and drove to Covent Garden Market, where he unloaded. He left London at 8 a.m. the following morning, proceeded to Tollgate Garage, Gravesend, where he arrived about 10.30. He left about 11.30 and arrived at defendant's place of business at 2.45 p.m., February 16. He started work at 4 p.m. the same day, picked up his load, and then went home and lay on the sofa till 10 p.m. He left for London at
1184
11 p.m., and arrived at 2.30 the following morning. The only night in the week when lie went to bed was Saturday."
There is another case here of a film company, which was fined £ 25 for aiding and abetting, at Doncaster:
" Thomas Dodds, motor driver, of Gateshead, was bound over and ordered to pay 4s. costs, on a charge of exceeding the speed limit with a motor wagon, and the Film Transport Company, of Broxburn, by whom he was employed, were fined £ 25 and £ 5 costs for aiding and abetting. The Chairman said that the Court and the public in general were under some obligation to Dodds for giving the information he had. In that court they were constantly fining drivers heavily for exceeding the speed limit. Whether it was the case with other companies he did not know, but at last they had the truth about this cinema company."
He went on to say that in the garage they put up a notice in which they referred to a maximum of thirty-five miles for some cars and thirty for others, knowing full well that it was far in excess of the legal limit.
The last case to which I wish to refer is that of a driver who worked fifty-four hours out of ninety-eight, and severe criticism was made by the Coroner of his long hours of labour. His employers were Messrs. Dawson, of Southwark. The man, Frederick Charles Barringer, aged 23, drove down a sixty-seven-foot bank and was crushed against a tree. He had actually been at work for fifty-four out of ninety-eight hours. The dead man's mate said that on the journey he had to keep correcting the steering because Barringer appeared to be dozing. The Coroner said:
" My deepest sympathy goes to the poor man, who had to work such a lengthy duty, especially when there are so many men unemployed to-day who would be glad to do a very small portion of that work. In my opinion these hours had a great deal to do with the poor fellow's death."
The verdict was "Death by misadventure." These cases should convince your Lordships of the terrible dangers and risks now being run every day of the week.
I should like to turn to another aspect of the case, which is from the point of view of safety equally important in my opinion, and that is the over-loading of lorries. A section of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, provides for the amount which lorries may be allowed to carry, and gives power to the local authorities to erect

1185
weigh-bridges at suitable places, so that the police, if not satisfied that a lorry is properly loaded, may bring it and weigh it. Very few local authorities have availed themselves of this power. I believe that Warrington has, and a few others have. The trouble is that the police will riot act at present because if they make a man go more than a mile to the weigh-bridge, and it is found that his lorry is not over-loaded, then the police have to pay the cost of the man's time, and they do not like to take that risk. For myself I would prefer that they should have to pay the cost of a hundred lorries, provided they got the hundred and first which was offending, rather than chat one civilian should be maimed or injured.
Can your Lordships imagine a lorry, with brakes in not too good a condition for driving with anything but a normal load, meeting a child who rushes across the road? The unfortunate driver applies his brakes, but they do not act, and the child is either killed or maimed for life. It is not the driver's fault, but that of his employer, who has forced him to drive with such a load and with brakes that do not act. Are we going to imperil the lives of citizens because the police are too nervous to enforce the law, in case they should have costs given against them. On these two main grounds I appeal to your Lordships. I am sure that your Lordships will bring the great weight and force of this House to bear upon the Government, in order that they may bring in legislation to deal with the matter, or to enforce the existing law. I beg to move.
Moved to resolve, That in the opinion of this House further legislation should be introduced to regulate the hours and conditions of employment of drivers of heavy lorries and steam wagons —(The Earl of Kinnoull.)
THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, I do not think any one would complain of the noble Earl for having raised this subject, and I do not think any one who has examined the position in regard to it can fail to come to the conclusion that the position is not satisfactory. As the noble Earl pointed out at the beginning of his speech, Section 19 of the Road Traffic
1186
Act, 1930, deals with the limitation, in the interests of public safety, of the time during which drivers of certain vehicles may remain continuously upon the road. Briefly speaking, the provision is to this effect, that no man may drive for a continuous period of more than 5½ hours, or for an aggregate of more than 11 hours in a day or so that he has not at least ten consecutive hours for rest in the twenty-four hours.
It was realised when this particular matter was under discussion between the representatives of the employers and of the trade unions, before the Road Traffic Act of 1930 was actually passed into law, that the provisions of this section would have to be formulated in such a way as to be adaptable to the circumstances of particular branches of industry. For this reason power was conferred upon the Minister under the Act to vary these provisions in certain given circumstances and under certain conditions. It was necessary for the representatives of both the employers and the employees to come to him and make representations on that particular point. But, at any rate, as the result of that subsection a variation has actually been made in the provisions of Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act in respect of certain types of vehicles and affecting certain particular circumstances. It is not necessary for me to go into the details of that variation. I would also like to remind the House that contravention of the provisions of Section 19, and of course of any variation of Section 19, that is to say, made by the order of the Minister, is an offence under the Act and subject to certain penalties, for the first offence not exceeding £ 20, and for a second or subsequent offence not exceeding £ 50, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months. I think it has been the experience that when it has been possible to obtain a conviction under this section the penalties that have been imposed have been severe penalties. These offences have been looked upon by the magistrates as very serious offences and treated as such. But, as the noble Earl has pointed out, the difficulty lies, not in that quarter but in the extreme difficulty of enforcing the law and obtaining convictions under this section of the Road Traffic Act. I think it is only right to say that when this proposal was originally made for inclu-

1187
sion in that Act the Home Secretary pointed out how difficult it would be actually to enforce it. I am afraid that is in the essence of the situation.
Let us just examine what would occur on an occasion of this kind. It is extremely difficult for the police to take action or to obtain a conviction unless there is a certain set of circumstances. In the first place the evidence has to be available, and then it is possible for the police to take action very often where an accident is obviously due to some infringement of this particular section; but it is so rarely that the evidence is there and is available. One knows perfectly well from experience that no employee is going to agree to give evidence against his employer unless he has already been dismissed by his employer as the result of any particular accident. Therefore, I am afraid it is in the essence of the situation that it is extremely difficult not only to obtain a conviction but really to take action at all under this particular section. And I think it is owing to the fact that the Government from the beginning realised that probable difficulty, that they urged upon the trade union concerned that they should undertake what responsibility they could themselves for the enforcement of the law.
The Minister of Transport himself is not in a position to judge of the extent to which the provisions of this section have been disregarded. I think, from what the noble Earl has told us this evening, and from our general knowledge, we know that it has not been enforced to an extent that could by any stretch of imagination be called satisfactory. I therefore am entirely prepared to agree with the noble Earl that there is obviously substance in the contention that Section 19 of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, is difficult of enforcement, and that it is largely disregarded by the less scrupulous type of employer. The noble Earl said that it was disregarded by everybody. I do not think that is strictly true. In fairness to the reputable type of employers it is only right to say that they are particularly anxious that these provisions should be universally enforced if possible, because otherwise they do not know whom they are up against or the kind of people they have to compete with. But I entirely agree that it is largely
1188
disregarded by the less scrupulous type of employer, and this applies more particularly to the transport of goods by road. It does not apply so much to public service vehicles, because they are already dealt with, or they can be dealt with I think effectively, under another section of the Road Traffic Act.
In reply to a Question in another place on February 8, the Minister said that the question of the more effective enforcement of this and other legal requirements will need to be considered in connection with the Government's proposed Bill for the better regulation and control of good transport by road. The Government, as has been stated on several occasions already in this House, have most carefully considered the recommendations of the Salter Report with regard to the licensing and regulation of goods traffic by road and also the relevant recommendations of the final Report of the Royal Commission on Transport, and they have already publicly announced their intention to introduce before Easter a Bill to provide for the licensing and the better regulation of the transport of goods by road. This Bill is now in active preparation, and it will be presented to Parliament very shortly.
I further agree with the noble Earl that the less scrupulous type of operator in this business of the transport of goods by road is apt not only to disregard this particular section of the Road Traffic Act, which deals with hours of employment, but in many cases he also grossly overloads his vehicles— overloads them far beyond the legal limits— and, by the conditions as to time-schedules, compels his men to drive at speeds greatly exceeding the limits imposed by the Act. I want freely to admit that the Government recognise that these abuses exist among the less reputable operators, and one of the matters under consideration in connection with the Bill which will shortly be introduced is the provision of means for a more effective enforcement of the law in these respects. I hope that what I have said will satisfy the noble Earl, and, as far as the Government are concerned, they are prepared to accept his Resolution.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl very much for his

1189
sympathy with the object I have in view. I was delighted to hear him say that a Bill was coming before Parliament before Easter, and also it will deal specially with overloading.
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I do not think I actually said that.
THE EARL OF KINNNOULL: I beg the noble Earl's pardon
THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH: I said that these were all matters that were under consideration in connection with this Bill.
THE EARL OF KINNOULL: I am afraid the noble Earl did not go quite as far as I would like. But in the circumstances I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past six o'clock.