Lords Sitting of 14 March 1933

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.

CHILDREN AND YOUNG PERSONS BILL. [H.L.]
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg leave to introduce a Bill entitled Children and Young Persons Bill, which consolidates certain enactments relating to persons under the age of eighteen; and to move that it be read a first time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Bill read 1a; and to be printed.

VISITING FORCES (BRITISH COMMONWEALTH) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.
THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM): My Lords, I beg to move that the Amendments to this Bill be considered and agreed to. They are in fact only Privilege Amendments.
Moved, That these Amendments be now considered and agreed to—(Viscount Hailsham.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Amendments agreed to accordingly.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT 1932 (EDMONTON URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move that the Order made by the Secretary of State under the Sunday Entertainments Act for extending Section 1 of the Act to the urban district of Edmonton be approved.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Edmonton, and laid before this House on the 23rd February, be approved—(The Earl of Lucan
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS ACT , 1932 (HAYES AND HARLINGTON URBAN DISTRICT ORDER).
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move a similar Order extending the Act to the urban district of Hayes and Harlington.
Moved, That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, for extending Section 1 of that Act to the urban district of Hayes and Harlington, and laid before this House on the 23rd February, be approved—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (BUCKINGHAM AND OXFORD) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (LEEK) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (RUGBY JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a(according to Order), and passed.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDER (TAUNTON AND DISTRICT JOINT HOSPITAL DISTRICT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

PHARMACY AND POISONS BILL [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Motion agreed to
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Conditions to be fulfilled by body corporate in order to become authorised seller of poisons
9—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, a body corporate carrying on a business which comprises the retail sale of drugs shall be an authorised seller of poisons within the meaning of this Act if the following conditions are complied with—

(a) the business must, so far as concerns the keeping, retailing, dispensing and compounding of poisons, be under the management of a superintendent in relation to whom the following requirements are fulfilled:

(i) he must be a registered pharmacist;

(ii) a statement in writing signed by him and on behalf of the body corporate stating his name and specifying whether or not he is a member of the board must have been sent to the registrar;

(iii) he must not be acting at the time in a similar capacity for any other body corporate; and

(b) in each set of premises where the business is carried on, the business must, so far as concerns the retail sale of drugs, if not under the personal control of the superintendent, be carried on, subject to the directions of the superintendent, under the personal control of a manager or assistant who is a registered pharmacist; and

(c) the name and certificate of registration of the person having the control of business as aforesaid, whether he is the superintendent or some other person, must be conspicuously exhibited in the premises.

(2) Notwithstanding the restrictions imposed by the foregoing provisions of this Act on the use of certain titles, emblems and descriptions, a body corporate which is au authorised seller of poisons may, if the superintendent is a member of the board, use the description of chemist and druggist, or of chemist, or of druggist, or of dispensing chemist or dispensing druggist, and the description "pharmacy" may be used in connection with the business:
Provided that nothing in this subsection shall authorise the use of any of the said descriptions in or on any premises which are for the time being disqualified by virtue of a direction under this section from being registered in the register of premises, or in connection with any business so far as it is carried on in any premises so disqualified.
(3) A body corporate which is entitled by virtue of the last foregoing subsection to use certain descriptions as therein provided may, if it is a private company within the meaning of the Companies Act, 1929, and every director of the company is a pharmaceutical chemist, also use the description of pharmaceutical chemist or of pharmacist.
Loan COZENS-HARDY Loan COZENS-HARDY moved to, leave out subsection (3). The noble Lord said: When a similar Bill was before your Lordships on a previous occasion the noble Lord who was then in charge of the Bill accepted an Amendment from me in the terms of this subsection, but, for reasons which have come to my notice since then, I think that the case which this subsection was intended to meet does not in practice ever arise. I understand also there is a considerable doubt whether the subsection would not be abused, and I therefore beg to move that it be deleted.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 8, leave out subsection (3)—(Lord Cozens-Hardy)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: As the noble Lord has said this subsection was put into the Bill in 1931 on his motion, but the condition to which it applies (that every director of a private company should be a pharmaceutical chemist) is very unlikely to arise in practice and there is no reason why it should not be dropped. I understand that the Pharmaceutical Society are anxious that it should be dropped. Therefore I will accept the noble Lord's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to
Clauses 10 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Power of Secretary of State to make rules
23—(1) The Secretary of State may, after consultation with or on the recommendation of the Poisons Board, make rules with respect to any of the following matters or for any of the following purposes:

(a) the manufacture of pharmaceutical preparations containing poisons:

(b) the sale, whether wholesale or retail, or the supply of poisons, by or to any persons or classes of persons and in particular but without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing provisions—

(i) for regulating or restricting the sale or supply of poisons by persons whose names are entered in a local authority's list and for prohibiting the sale of any specified poison or class of poisons by any class of such persons: and

(ii) for prohibiting the sale by retail of poisons (being poisons included in Part I of the Poisons List) except on a prescription duly given by a duly qualified medical practitioner, registered dentist or registered veterinary surgeon, and for prescribing the form and
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regulating the use of prescriptions given for the purpose of rules made under this paragraph; and

(iii) for dispensing with or relaxing with respect to poisons any of the provisions contained in Part II of this Act relating to the sale of poisons:

(c) the storage, transport and labelling of poisons:

(d) the containers in which poisons may be sold or supplied:

(e) the addition to poisons of specified ingredients for the purpose of rendering them readily distinguishable as poisons:

(f) the compounding and dispensing of poisons:

(g) the period for which any books required to be kept for the purposes of Part II of this Act are to be preserved:

(h) the period for which any certificate given under Part II of this Act is to remain in force:

(i) for requiring persons in control of the manufacture of pharmaceutical preparations containing poisons to be registered pharmacists or persons possessing the prescribed qualification in chemistry:

(j) for prescribing anything which is by this Act to be prescribed by rules.

(2) The power to make rules under this section with respect to poisons includes the power to make rules with respect to any class of poisons or any particular poison.
THE EARL OF LUCAN THE EARL OF LUCAN moved to add to the clause:
"(3) The Secretary of State may issue to the Poisons Board a direction that the power of the Board to make recommendations as to the making of rules with respect to the matters or for the purposes specified in paragraphs (a), (b) (i), (c), (d), (e) and (i) of subsection (1) of this section shall not be exercised except after consultation with such body of persons as is specified in the direction, being a body which is, in his opinion, representative of persons engaged in the manufacture of poisons or preparations containing poisons, and the Board shall comply with any such direction.
The Secretary of State may, from time to time, revoke or vary any such direction, without prejudice to the issue of a new direction."
The noble Earl said: This Amendment is being moved as a result of representations which have been made to the effect that the rules which will be made under Clause 23 will in several respects be in regard to matters upon which manufacturers have obtained considerable experience and about which they are in a position to give valuable advice. It has always been to the interest of responsible manufacturers of poisons to ensure that their products should not be misused or

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cause damage, and they have therefore given considerable thought to such questions as, for instance, the labelling of poisons and the containers in which poisons may be supplied. Their advice will be useful, too, on the question of the practicability of adding to poisons specific ingredients for the purpose of rendering them readily distinguishable as poisons. It is manifestly desirable that the advice of manufacturers should be obtained by the Poisons Board on such points, and the Amendment is moved to give statutory recognition to the principle.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 22, at end insert the said new subsection—(The Earl of Lucan)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:

FIRST SCHEDULE.
Proceedings of the Statutory Committee
3. The Statutory Committee may make regulations as to the procedure to be followed by them in exercising the jurisdiction conferred on them by this Act, hut no such regulation shall have effect until confirmed by the Privy Council and the Privy Council may confirm any such regulation either with or without modifications:
Provided that where the Privy Council propose to confirm the regulations with modifications the Privy Council shall inform the Committee of the proposed modifications and give to them a reasonable opportunity of making any observations with respect thereto, and shall, before finally confirming the regulations, take into consideration any observations so made.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME moved, in paragraph 3, to omit the first "them" and to insert "it." The noble Viscount said: In reading this Bill I noticed with great pleasure that "Committee" was treated in the singular. My delight, however, was not very long lived, for when I came to the First Schedule I found it had slipped back into the plural. I do not think that is very neat and for that reason I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, line 24, leave out ("them") and insert ("it")—(Viscount Bertie of Thame)
THE EARL OF LUCAN: We are always very grateful to the noble Viscount for correcting any grammatical mistakes that
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may arise. Consultation has been made of various works on the subject and, although there is no right or wrong in treating a noun of multitude as either singular or plural, still it has been agreed that in future the better course would be to treat these nouns as being of the singular number. I may say that there are one or two other cases which have been noticed since the noble Viscount's Amendment was put down which even his eagle eye missed. However, we accept his Amendment.
LORD RHAYADER: I see a certain difficulty in this procedure because in the earlier part of this Schedule it is provided that the quorum of the Statutory Committee shall be three. How can a singular body have a quorum of three? It seems to me that it would be better in this Schedule to have the plural form as you are dealing with a body which is definitely stated to be composed of units. You cannot talk of a body which is singular and say it shall have a quorum of three.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I take it that the noble Lord has read the Bill and he will have noticed on page 6 that Clause 7 (2) reads:
"If the statutory Committee think fit in any case so to do, it may, either of its own Motion••"
Again, on page 11 of the Bill, he will see in Clause 11 (1):
"the Committee shall not give any such direction unless proof is given to its satisfaction."
If the noble Lord holds the views which he has just expressed I venture to suggest that it was his duty to have moved to put these two cases into the plural.
LORD RHAYADER: May I say I have watched the noble Viscount's efforts with some anxiety, but this is the first opportunity I have had of raising the point.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT BERTIE OF THAME: I have two other Amendments on the Paper which are consequential. I beg to move
Amendments moved—
Page 31, line 25, leave out ("them") and insert ("it").
Page 31, line 31, leave out ("them") and insert ("it").—(Viscount Bertie of Thame)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedules agreed to.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND (PROPERTY AND ENDOWMENTS) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD STRATHCONA AND MOUNT ROYAL: My Lords, this Bill has been introduced by the Government in response to representations by the authorities of the Church of Scotland. It involves no new principle and raises no issue of public importance. Its sole purpose is to rectify some omissions and defects in the Church of Scotland (Property and Endowments) Act of 1925. One of the principal objects of the Act of 1925 was to give to the Church of Scotland full control of its own property and endowments. In the case of the ordinary civil and ecclesiastical parish, which is known as aquoad omnia parish, this simply involved the transfer of the powers and duties of the heritors of the parish to the General Trustees of the Church, to whom the Act gave all necessary powers of control and disposal of churches and church property in those parishes. But there were numerous other classes of churches and properties which required special provisions, and it is with regard to these that in various respects the Act of 1925 has been found not to have done all that is necessary. It omitted, for example, to give to the General Trustees the same powers of disposal of property in quoad sacra parishes — that is, parishes which were erected under certain old Acts for purely ecclesiastical purposes—as these Trustees Obtained in regard to the quoad omnia parishes. These powers are dealt with in the first three clauses of the Bill.
I do not think I need explain the clauses of the Bill in detail. They are all of that character— all designed to meet small but real difficulties in the working of the Act of 1925 or to facilitate the efficient organisation of the Church's
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work The authorities of the Church have satisfied the Secretary of State for Scotland that these amendments are necessary and desirable, and so far as the Government is aware they raise no controversial issue. If, however, there is any point on which noble Lords wish for further information I shall be happy to give a fuller explanation, so far as it lies in my power to do so, either now or at a later stage. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and referred to a Committee of the Whole House.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, may I ask the Leader of the House if, owing to the large number of Amendments put down to the London Passenger Transport Bill to-morrow he is making any special arrangement for the meeting of the House?
VISCOUNT HAILSHAM: My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for putting the question to me. There is a very large number of amendments to the London Passenger Transport Bill. With one or two exceptions, where they are substantial, the great bulk of them are drafting but their consideration, I am afraid, must necessarily take considerable time, even with the celerity of my noble friend the Lord Chairman of Committees, in going through them, and I am proposing therefore to ask the House to be good enough to meet at three o'clock. I do not think there will be anything very contentious for the first hour or so. I have ascertained that this does not interfere with the judicial business and, therefore, if it meets with general convenience, I would ask the House to meet at three.
House adjourned at twenty-eight minutes before five o'clock.