HL Deb 14 February 1933 vol 86 cc675-89

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

My Lords, this Bill, the Second Reading of which I desire to move this afternoon, deals with a matter of some importance. It bears upon two simple propositions, with both of which I think your Lordships will possibly agree. The first is that we have too many road accidents to-day, and the second that if we have a law existent in. this country it ought to be enforced. I do not think that I need dilate upon the state of our roads at the present time. Everyone agrees that the question of the safety of our roads to-day is not a satisfactory one. I know an answer may be made that the vehicles with which this Bill deals, the heavy vehicles, omnibuses and chars-a-bancs, may not be responsible for all the accidents or even a great number of the accidents on the roads. That is an argument which I do not think is really sound. It may be backed up by statistics, but they do not mean much to me. A number of figures merely shows what those figures are intended to show. They do not necessarily show what is the real state of affairs.

If I am riding with a friend on horseback down a road, and suddenly meet with a herd of wild elephants coming along, in consequence of which my friend and I collide and we are thrown from our horses and injured, it does not seem to me that the fact that no particular elephant trod upon me is going to exonerate the herd of elephants from being the cause of the accident. It is not always the actual colliding vehicle that is responsible for the accident, and one knows perfectly well to-day that if one is driving along a road and you meet one of those heavy vehicles driven at an excessive speed that vehicle is bound to hold the crown of the road. It cannot get on to its proper side because of its speed and weight and the camber of the road. It takes the crown of the road and leaves other motorists very little room. That is not a very satisfactory condition of affairs and in this Bill I am asking that these vehicles should do nothing other than what they are required to do by law. I am asking that it should be seen that they do keep the law which is at present on the Statute Book.

One is in this difficulty in making a recommendation such as I am making. It is quite clear that no Act of Parliament and no Bill can be presented which in any way is asking to give a monopoly to any one particular instrument. Of course, on the other hand, it would be equally idle to ask you to consider fitting some sort of instrument without having taken the trouble to find out whether such an instrument exists. Therefore I have taken the trouble to find out that an instrument of the kind suggested does exist. It is not, I think, the province of anybody who is proposing a Bill of this kind to suggest which instrument is best. It is merely one's duty to find out that such an instrument does exist. Well, I have found one that does and it has satisfied me of one or two things. First of all, it will in fact register the speed at which any vehicle is going at any time with sufficient accuracy for the purposes of this kind of legislation. I am told, and from what I have been shown I should be inclined to accept the statement, that the instrument I have in mind would give an accuracy of within about 1 per cent. I do not think it right to mention the name of this instrument because that would be giving an advertisement to a particular instrument, and I do not desire to do that. But it is said to give an accuracy of within 1 per cent.; I am prepared to double or treble that and to say that it will only give accuracy within 3 per cent. Even that is close enough to give the knowledge that we want in order to consider what proceedings, if any, should be taken if the law is being broken.

This is not a question of something new. Instruments of this kind are used at the present time on the railways both of Canada and of France. I agree that the problem of the speed of an engine on a railway track is not quite the same as that of the speed of a car on a road. But, nevertheless, these instruments have been used, and it has been thought proper in those two countries to use them. In this country one railway at least uses what is known as a dynamometer car, that is to say, a car with instruments, and among others this type of instrument, whenever they are considering a new type of engine and a new schedule for their express trains; and a, careful register of the speed at every moment of that run is made before they make their new schedule of time-tables. I only mention that to show that this is not new. Lately I found something else. In France there is no speed limit at all on the road, but I found that a great number of the omnibus companies and char-à-banc companies in France have themselves fitted instruments of this kind for their own purposes because they find that it is worth their while in order to check the runs of their cars and their drivers.

I can go further. I discussed this matter with a friend of mine who is a director of three of the biggest omnibus and char-à-banc companies in this country. He is also chairman of a committee of directors of practically every big company which sits once a fortnight to discuss the accidents on the road that have happened during that fortnight. His opinion is this. He wants these instruments on every one of his omnibuses. "But," he says, and I think with very great propriety, "I cannot do that on my lines and leave all my competitors to do what they like, and break the law as they like in order to become our rivals. There must be some regulation which would affect everybody. But I personally would welcome it, and a great many of the other directors agree with me." Therefore I do not think you are going to get any real opposition to a Bill of this kind from the people who are actually running these omnibuses. You have to remember that they have their own interests to think of. They reason like this: it does not pay to go on asking the public to use things that the public are beginning to realise are a danger. There is a second and a very obvious reason, and that is that as a matter of business these coaches have to be insured. If their speed is cut down to the legal speed the insurance companies will give them considerably better terms than they are giving them at the present time. Therefore I do not think you are going to get any real opposition.

What is it that I am asking for in this Bill? I am asking that a speedometer should be fitted to certain vehicles in order that there may be a permanent record of the speed at which these vehicles have been travelling. The Bill is a short one, and because it is short it took a long time to draft. It is always easy to draft a Bill if you do not mind its being long, but it takes time to draft a short Bill. I went back to an old-fashioned idea, which personally I prefer; that is to say, I put my definition clause first, instead of last, which is the present practice, in order that we may know what we are talking about before we talk about it. The first thing is the vehicle that we are dealing with. We are dealing only with vehicles that are subject to a maximum speed. Those come under the First Schedule of the Road Traffic Act, 1930. I think that that is not only reasonable but logical. When a vehicle has a maximum speed, if it exceeds that speed, that is an offence per se, and therefore we are entitled to know at what speed it has been going.

With other vehicles, such as private motor cars, it is not an offence per se to go at any speed, because there is no speed limit. But it may be that the private car will come into legal process because it has been driven to the danger of the public, or because it has even caused manslaughter. That may be perfectly true, but in such a case the actual speed is only one element in a body of evidence, and I think that it is unreasonable to include those vehicles, for this reason among others: I think if you did, you would make too much of the importance of speed when you are considering the body of evidence as to whether or not there has been an offence of driving to the danger of the public. In any case, all I am asking for at the present time is that this should apply to those vehicles which have a definite maximum speed, and which therefore have committed an offence if they have gone beyond that speed.

Next I have put the duty upon the owner of the vehicle. When this question was raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buckmaster, last autumn, he pointed out that one of the things that ought to be considered is the fact that the owner, and not the unfortunate driver, should be made the responsible person. For that reason I have in this Bill put the responsibility of having the speedometer fitted and cared for upon the owner. That is found in Clause 2. I thought it was right, if this Act were going to be of any value at all, that the owners should keep these charts for a certain time. After consideration I suggested a month, arid that is what I have provided for in Clause 3. If that is thought too much or too little, it is very easy to alter it at another stage of the Bill. It seemed to me that a month was reasonable. Furthermore, if there are any legal proceedings started the chart must be kept until those legal proceedings are finished. Next, a police officer may stop any vehicle and look at the chart when the vehicle is being used on the road. Next, we come to the "chief officer of police." A "chief officer of police" is defined in the Road Traffic Act, 1930, as a responsible person, and as a rule it is the Chief Constable; it means someone who is a big, responsible person, not any police officer. He is entitled, if he desires, to ask that any charts that are being kept should be produced to him or to his officer. Then, of course, there is a penalty for refusal to comply.

The next clause is on the question of offences with regard to the speedometer. I have satisfied myself that the particular model which I have looked at is one in which the chart cannot be tampered with, short of actually fabricating an entirely false chart, which of course is forgery. I have satisfied myself that apart from that it cannot be faked, and for that reason I am suggesting to your Lordships that this does give a reasonable prospect of seeing that the law is properly kept. One difficulty in the Bill was pointed out to me by my noble friend Lord Howe. I dare say there are many but this one I acknowledge freely. It could be rectified easily on another stage of the Bill. I have not allowed for what would happen if the speedometer broke down. Under the Bill as drawn the driver could not drive on. Something has got to be put in to rectify that, and I shall suggest later, if your Lordships give me an opportunity, that if this does happen there should be an obligation to report the fact to the first policeman the driver may meet. That is merely a suggestion; I have not had time to consider it.

Another thing is obvious: you cannot expect people to fit these things in a day, nor can you expect manufacturers who are manufacturing for experimental work, that is for cars that are being used for experiment—you cannot expect them, manufacturing for a small market, suddenly to be able to put the requisite number of speedometers on the market. Therefore I have put in the Bill that "this Act shall come into operation on such day as the Minister may appoint." That will allow the Minister to consider, with the manufacturers and omnibus companies, when it would be reasonable to ask them that they should come into conformity and adopt this particular method of showing what they are doing on the road. These are shortly the reasons why I desire your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Halsbury.)

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, I should like to support the Second Reading of the measure proposed by the noble Earl as warmly as I can. He pointed out that the object of the Bill was to see that the law was enforced in order to increase safety and to decrease road accidents. If that was the only effect this Bill would have I should feel inclined to say there might be other suggestions which would be more effective than the speedometer to which my noble friend referred. One I had sent to me the other day was one which ran elf the gear box. When you got the maximum speed allowed a red light showed on the dash board and your petrol supply was cut down.

Another aspect of the case is that this Bill concerns the drivers of big, heavy commercial vehicles which go up north and come back every night. A short time ago I was talking to a friend of mine who sells these commercial vehicles and he was telling me of the appalling conditions which exist among the drivers. He also said that there were certain "doss" houses on the road. Shortly before Christmas I was near Doncaster where there is one of these "doss" houses. I scent in and discussed the position with two drivers there, and I was appalled by what they told me. They told me that they averaged only four hours sleep per night. They have to run up to schedule, and if they are not up to schedule they get the "sack." There are so many unemployed drivers that they have to do it. They are actually blackmailed into practical slavery

. They told me they got a very short time when they got back to London from Liverpool; they had only four hours' sleep and had hardly time to turn round and say "Goodbye" to their wives before they had to go again to the north. This Bill would leave it open to any police officer to inspect the chart and, as is the case to-day, in many of the schedules which these drivers have to keep they have to get up to the utmost limit of speed. To get to their destination on time they have to exceed the present speed Under this Bill any police officer could see if they had exceeded the limit, and this would call attention to the disgusting state of affairs that exists with regard to these drivers.

LORD MOUNT TEMPLE

My Lords, one aspect of this Bill has not been dwelt on by the noble Lord who moved the Second Reading, or the noble Lord who has just spoken, and that is the cost. I do not know whether the House realises the very large number of vehicles which will be affected by this Bill. According to Clause 1 all big goods vehicles and all omnibuses would be affected, as well as all private cars drawing a. trailer, that is to say caravans and motor-cycles which deliver goods. In all these categories there are no fewer than 440,000 vehicles.

I am advised that you cannot buy a speedometer which would really work under £22 10s.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

I may tell the noble Lord that I have taken the trouble to find out what the quoted price is and the quoted price is not more than £5.

LORD MOUNT TEMPLE

I have also taken the trouble to find out. The quoted price the noble Lord speaks of is for one that shows whether the vehicle is going or is stopped.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

The noble Lord must not attribute to me something I did not say. I have investigated the model which tells you exactly the speed at which a vehicle is going at every moment that it is going, and if the noble Lord would like a little further information I will give it to him. It is that this model has been designed by the person who designed and put on the market the original taximeter.

LORD MOUNT TEMPLE

I am not in the least moved from my opinion by the noble Earl's remark. I may be wrong and he may be wrong, but I am advised that a reliable speedometer cannot at present be purchased under £22 10s. Of course if you created a great demand for them you would probably get them cheaper; perhaps at £20 each. If you make a rough calculation of 440,000 vehicles at £20 each it means that it would cost about £9,000,000 to put this measure into operation. If you are going to achieve a great public reform, save lives, and generally diminish the wear and tear of the roads, which is one of the most important things, I admit that possibly you might face so vast an expenditure. I submit, however, that the way to proceed is not to have these speedometers, but to have more intensive action by the police in trapping these heavy vehicles. That is being done extensively in most counties, and in all the petty sessional districts in my own county, at every petty sessions, we have half-a-dozen or a dozen of these big vehicles up for going too fast. That is a very cheap way to make them keep within the law, and far better than undertaking the enormous expenditure which would be necessitated under this Bill.

EARL HOWE

My Lords, I listened with great attention to the speech made by my noble friend in introducing this Bill, and it does seem to me that much further investigation is required. The noble Earl, in introducing the Bill, said one of the things we must be careful not to do is to give a monopoly to anyone. The noble Earl has mentioned one instrument which he says will do what he wants to do, record the speed of a vehicle on a chart at every stage during its journey. But he has only come across one such instrument, and if this Bill were to pass into law surely the effect of it would be to put a practical monopoly into the hands of the maker of a proprietary article. I submit that would not be a desirable thing to do. The noble Earl did not tell us whether this speedometer has been tried out, and if so, for how long? An instrument may work perfectly for a short time, say six months, but we are considering a Bill for all time, and are to ask motor owners to incur an expense, I believe the noble Earl suggested, of something like £4 10s.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

I said under £5.

EARL HOWE

The noble Earl is going to ask every owner of a vehicle affected by this Bill to incur an expenditure of £4 10s. for an instrument which may, or may not, let him down. The noble Earl indicated that there is no provision for accidental breakdown in it, but he indicated that he would accept an Amendment at a later stage. I hope he will, because I am very much afraid there is no maker of any proprietary article of whom I have heard in this country who would be prepared in present circumstances to guarantee such an instrument for a longer period than six months or a year. There is one instrument, but experience has not been gained in regard to it.

The noble Earl said that this Bill was to apply to every vehicle which is subject to a speed limit under the Road Traffic Act. The noble Lord who has just spoken (Lord Mount Temple) has given your Lordships the number of vehicles which would be affected, but there are others. For instance, there are invalid carriages, there are locomotives and motor tractors with a speed of five miles an hour. Every agricultural tractor would be affected by this Bill. Every owner of an agricultural tractor would be expected to have one of these expensive accessories, although his vehicle seldom appears on the road. It seems to me that is not really what we want. I understand that what the noble Earl really wants is that this should apply to motor coaches. I am sure that is what he has really in mind. The law with regard to motor coaches is absurd. Is it really necessary that in order to bring this about you should pass a Bill which is going to place upon the owners of these vehicles an expenditure running into millions of pounds—not so many millions, I think perhaps, as the noble Lord just indicated, but at any rate well on the way to £2,000,000, even at £4 10s. per instrument. The noble Earl would put this expenditure upon the transport industry of the country in order to see that the law is observed by this kind of traffic.

That does not seem to me to be the right way of going about it. If you are to place this expenditure, for instance, on all the omnibuses in London, what effect is it likely to have on fares? At a later date, as we have heard from the noble and learned Leader of the House, we are going to have an opportunity of considering the London Passenger Transport Bill. I rather think the question of fares on the omnibuses will be one of the things we shall discuss, and I hope we shall do nothing which will have the effect of putting up the fares on the omnibuses. Take the case of second-hand vehicles. You are going to ask them to incur an expenditure which will form a very respectable proportion of the total value of the vehicle. The value of these instruments is put at £4 10s. each, and the value of many of the vehicles is only about £20. The vehicles affected by the Bill include light delivery vans, goods motor cycles, lorries of under 2½ tons, and so on. I think that we ought to be very cautious before we saddle the transport industry of this country with so great an expenditure.

The noble Earl says that he is content with 3 per cent. of accuracy in the speedometer. I believe there have been many cases in the Courts in which the reading of speedometers has been quoted, but I believe in most cases the Courts have required other evidence than that produced by a speedometer. They have not considered that the record of a speedometer was sufficiently accurate evidence to place before the Court. It must be corroborated in some other way. Therefore, I think even when you have saddled the motor transport industry with this expense, it is not certain that the speedometer will be considered to be conclusive evidence. You will still have to rely, I think, upon other methods in order to secure observance of the law. I strongly support what the noble Lord said just now about its being a matter for the police. I think it is entirely a matter for the police, and I should like to hear from the spokesman of the Government, or from some other quarter, whether this measure is really desired by the police and whether the police feel it would strengthen their hands in enforcing the law.

LORD BUCKMASTER

My Lords, in the Motor Traffic Act, 1930, there are, so far as I can see, two, and only two, provisions that have been inserted for the public interest. They are the two provisions that limit the speed of certain classes of cars. Every other part of the Bill is, in my judgment, designed to help and promote motor traffic. Now it is common knowledge that these two speed limits are disobeyed. They are not only disobeyed, but cases have come before the magistrates showing that drivers of some of these vehicles are employed on terms which compel disobedience, and the excuse they make is that they were detained, that they were blocked here and had to get through there, and that obedience to these rules was impossible. I think it is of the utmost consequence that there should be some recording instrument which shows whether or not they are obeying. Personally, I feel very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, for the trouble he has taken in this matter, and for introducing this Bill.

It really is no use—I say it with all respect—for the noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, to assert that this instrument would cost £22. The noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, has carefully investigated the matter himself, and lie is quite satisfied that it would not cost more than It really does not make an impressive set of figures to take an imaginary and, according to the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, a wholly inaccurate figure, and then multiply it in the way which has been done in this debate. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that even speedometers were not always accepted in the Courts.

I am not quite clear as to the cases he referred to, but I should imagine that they are the class of case where the undisputed evidence of bystanders is that a car was going at 50 miles an hour, and the driver declares that his speedometer showed it was going at only 15 miles an hour. That is by no means an uncommon case. If in this case the Judges said: "We are not prepared to credit the speedometer" it was only a polite way of saying: "We are not prepared to credit the witness."

EARL HOWE

I hesitate to interrupt the noble and learned Lord, but may I say that the case I have in mind was one where police officers mounted on motor cycles have followed a motorist and declared that the speed was so and so, giving the figure on the speedometer? That has not been accepted as final and conclusive evidence.

LORD BUCKMASTER

That is only another instance of the extreme leniency of the Courts. It not infrequently happens that a Court does not like to convict where the excess was not very great. On the whole, however, these speedometers are to be relied upon. I think everybody knows that. The only question that remains is whether we can get a speedometer that will also record the pace at which vehicles have travelled. I do not propose to prolong this discussion, but I do most earnestly hope that this Bill, which I regard as a most valuable contribution to the problem, will be passed. I will only say in conclusion that if there is one thing that disturbs me more than another, it is that whenever you have the inevitable question raised on the one side of the menace to human life on the roads and the comfort of people living along the road, and on the other the finance of the motor industry, you are always told that you must not put any expense upon the motor industry, even though lack of that expense may cause peril to the lives of the people of the country.

LORD TEMPLEMORE

My Lords, in the unfortunate absence of my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth on account of illness, I have been asked to state the views of His Majesty's Government regarding this Bill. The object of my noble friend who introduced this Bill and the object of all of us is to lessen the number of accidents in our streets and on our roads, and if I point out some objections to the Bill, as I am bound to do, it must not be taken that the Ministry of Transport or His Majesty's Government are any less anxious about this very serious toll of life and limb on the roads than the noble Earl or anyone else in this House.

His Majesty's Government do see certain objections to this measure. In connection with the first, which is that of expense, I would refer your Lordships to the debate in this House on December 1 last year, when my noble and learned friend Lord Buckmaster moved a Resolution which was accepted by the House that all motor vehicles subject to speed limits should be equipped with a trustworthy speedometer. In that debate, my noble friend the Earl of Halsbury stated that a very satisfactory recording speedometer could be produced at a cost of about £5. It is not clear whether this estimate covered the cost of fitting, etc. He has repeated that sum to-day. I am not going into the controversy between him and my noble friend below the gangway who said the cost would be £22 10s., but granted that it is only £5 there are, according to the figures given me, nearly half a million vehicles subject to a speed limit, so that even on my noble friend's estimate the fitting of recording speedometers would involve an expenditure of £2,500,000. In spite of what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Buck-master, has just said, the Government consider that this is a serious matter and would involve a heavy burden on industry in times such as the present.

The second objection which the Government see to this measure is that instruments of this nature are delicate and are liable to get out of order. In the rough usage to which a lorry is subject, cases of the instrument going out of order would be likely to be frequent, and under the provisions of the Bill the vehicle would be out of action until the instrument had been adjusted. In justice to my noble friend I think it should be said that he did refer to that and did recognise it as a possible flaw in the Bill. The third objection of the Government is that instruments of this kind are not always accurate and can be tampered with comparatively easily. The accuracy, for example, depends on such details as the degree of inflation of the tyres, and I am informed that it is reckoned that an ordinary speedometer in a private car is subject to a margin of error of between 5 and 10 per cent. The fourth objection is that a recording speedometer of the kind suggested by my noble friend has not yet been tried in what one may call workaday conditions. In this connection your Lordships may remember that in the debate last December my noble friend the Earl of Plymouth, replying for the Government, stated that by a regulation that came into force on January 1 this year all long distance motor-coaches have now to be fitted with speedometers. That is a requirement that the Government realise may well have to be extended. The Minister proposes to carry out some practical experiments with the more promising of the existing devices that have been brought to his notice and to look into the question of cost and the practicability of fitting such device to existing vehicles.

I think I should again emphasise, even though I may be repeating myself, that even if perfectly reliable instruments were available, the difficulties of enforcement of the provisions of a Bill of this nature are formidable, the expense considerable, and the burden thrown upon the industry might not be offset by counter-balancing advantages. I think I need say no more as regards the merits of the Bill. In conclusion I would say that the Government do not wish to oppose the Second Reading of the Bill, which I presume will be carried. As regards its subsequent stages, your Lord ships are masters of the situation as regards this House, but the Government cannot at the present time offer any facilities for its passage in another place.

THE EARL OF HALSBURY

My Lords, there is one thing which I should like to be allowed to say, and that is in regard to the question of cost. The noble Lord, Lord Mount Temple, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, took the attitude of multiplying the cost of this speedometer by the number of vehicles and seeing what was the result. Let me put an ordinary instance. How much does a man spend on a char-a-banc in order to make, money out of it? Probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of a couple of thousand pounds or more. He is asked to spend another £5 to see that the law is obeyed. It is nonsense to talk about the industry being hampered by that. One other thing I would like to say is that, though I am grateful to the noble Lord who spoke for the Government for allowing the Second Reading to go through, and though it may be a great consolation to anybody who is deploring the loss of his nearest and dearest by a road accident to feel that His Majesty's Government are still exploring every avenue and possibly even considering making a gesture, it would be better still if something was done in practice.

On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.