HL Deb 01 November 1932 vol 85 cc920-31

LORD DE CLIFFORD rose to ask His Majesty's Government, in view of the development of semi-automatic signalling on motor vehicles, if they intend to issue suggestions or regulations as to their construction and adoption, and their future policy towards automatic and semi-automatic signalling for facilitating the movements and the safety of the users of the roads; and to move for Papers?

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I will not detain the House more than a few moments in submitting my Question and moving my Motion. When I first put the Question on the Order Paper nothing had been done to suggest that the Government were taking any interest in the direction of semi-automatic signals on motor vehicles, and, after I had sent the Question in, the whole matter was referred to a Departmental Committee on Road Traffic. Knowing Departmental Committees and Committees in general I was quite prepared to leave it there for some considerable time and not raise the matter at all, but on October 6, in the News-Chronicle, much to my surprise, I read a full account of a report which this Departmental Committee was supposed to be making to the Minister of Transport, including a report on this very matter which I raise in my Question. This report appeared in a large number of other newspapers, and, finally on October 11, it appeared in a certain technical journal and was quoted there as being premature and unauthorised. I looked at the copy of the report which appeared in the News-Chronicle, and to my mind it bears every indication of being entirely authentic, because there are certain very well-drawn designs and signs reproduced, and one or two other things, and actual words from the report are quoted.

I can quite believe that this report is premature and unauthorised, but I do think the noble Earl who replies to this Question for the Government might give us some indication as to how this leakage of information occurred, because it is to my mind a very serious matter. Perhaps he can tell us whether the Minister has had a report from this Committee, and, if so, whether it is as it was published in the newspaper; and, further, how a copy of the report managed to get to the Press. How did the News-Chronicle manage to get the article, and is it really in the public interest that official documents, presumably confidential, should be permitted to leak out? Has any inquiry been made as to the origin of this report and if none has taken place will some inquiries be made? This may appear to be only a small matter, but in certain other cases it might be a very serious matter. I think some steps should be taken to stop the leakage of information.

In consequence of this I speak this afternoon under some difficulty, not knowing whether I am talking to the converted or to the unconverted. I think that all noble Lords will agree with me that some uniformity in automatic signals on motor cars should be obtained. Several large manufacturers have started to make a variety of signs and I think that a very grave error is being made in some of them. It is essential that we should have development of automatic signalling. It is undoubtedly necessary because modern body-work makes it almost impossible to give correct signals from inside a car. Moreover, many people fail to give correct signals not only because of that impossibility but because they are too idle to give them or do not know them. I put down this Question because it seems to me essential that there should be simplicity of operation of these signals and that the signals themselves should be simple to understand. Anything like coloured flashing lights which may distract a driver's attention is a bad thing. There are some simple indicators and perhaps the noble Earl will be able to tell us whether the Commissioner of Police has had any reports on the very admirable indicators fitted to a certain number of taxicabs.

There is another point to which the Minister might give attention. I think it is essential under modern conditions that every motor vehicle with electrical equipment should have a stop light. I drive a great deal myself and I know from experience that it is extremely rare for drivers to make any attempt to show that they are stopping or applying their brakes. More particularly essential is the fitting of stop lights on tramcars. They are the quickest vehicles to stop, and since it is now an offence in many places to pass a stationary tramcar, whether people are alighting or not, motorists ought to have the longest possible warning of the intention of the drivers of these vehicles to stop. I would suggest to the Minister that if he is going to make regulations on this matter of signals on vehicles, he should make them compulsory not on private vehicles but on public service vehicles. It is impossible when you are driving behind a big char-a-banc or a big omnibus to understand what signals the driver is making. You have a tremendous length of vehicle along which to look and a man's hand, probably only just showing out of the side window, is extremely difficult to see. I think, therefore, that it should be made compulsory for all public service vehicles to be fitted with indicators. I think that an increasingly large number of manufacturers will fit some kind of indicator to motor cars and, therefore, it need not be made compulsory for every one to have one because ultimately that will come about voluntarily.

I come now to the question of automatic signals as used in streets. I do not think it will be denied that these signals have been a very wide success and I hope that we shall see large extensions of them. Before that comes about, however, I think we must have certain revisions of the regulations governing the movement of traffic by these lights. Complaints have been brought to my notice, and I have personally cause for complaint, as to the size of these lights. They are very difficult to see in certain cases owing to the fact that they are too small. It is obvious that these lights must be seen before they can be obeyed. Therefore I suggest to the Minister that he should pay serious attention to the size of these lights before making further regulations. Another difficulty which strikes me as rather important at the present moment is that where these lights are installed drivers tend to race, or attempt to race, the lights. I have seen that done myself and any noble Lord who passes along Oxford Street can see, almost any day, people trying to beat the lights. One of the things which struck me very forcibly when I was visiting the United States some few years ago was that it was possible to enter a town and drive through it perhaps for three or four miles, and by keeping a steady pace of fifteen miles per hour, or even up to twenty miles per hour, go through it from one end to the other without ever pausing, the traffic being entirely controlled by lights.

There is another point on which I think the Minister might take some action, not necessarily, perhaps, by regulation, but by laying it down in the Highway Code that an amber light when shown after green is the same as a red light and that it is obligatory on motorists to stop. It should be made equally clear that an amber light shown after a red light is not a permission for motorists to try to race each other from a traffic jam. There is a tendency to get that state of affairs, so that two streams of traffic are moving at cross roads at the same time. It ought to be definitely laid down that an amber light has the same meaning as a red light and that traffic should become motionless. Another very important point is that, especially in busy streets, the pedestrian should be made to realise that traffic lights are for his control as well as for the control of people in vehicles. It is very annoying—or even pathetic, according to the point of view from which you regard it—to see people dodging in and out of traffic when by waiting for a few moments they could cross the road in perfect safety. There is still one more matter which I should like to ask the Minister to take into consideration, and that is the extension of these lights to main roads outside towns and to the suburbs. If people will not slow down at cross roads or main roads and in the suburbs they must be made to do so, and these lights provide the very best method we can possibly have of ensuring caution.

Perhaps the noble Earl has some information that lie can give us about the system adopted in certain London streets whereby traffic lights are worked by the traffic itself so that the traffic passing over pads in the roadway sets signals against traffic coming from cross roads, or automatically, after passing over the cross roads, releases the traffic in the side roads. I wonder if the noble Earl could give any information as to whether it would be practicable to instal such lights at big main road crossings and in the suburbs. People must be made to be cautious. Safety is paramount on the roads in these days and a large extension of these lights is one of the best ways, I believe, in which we can secure it. I beg to move.

THE EARL OF KINNOULL

My Lords, I am pleased this Question has been raised, although on questions relating to motor cars our little Party on this side is usually split. The noble Lord, Lord Snell, will always go into the opposite Lobby to the one I go into on these questions. The noble Lord opposite has left me practically nothing to say, but he did mention the subject of tramcars. Tramcars have magnetic brakes which will stop them at least twice as quickly as any motor car and there is nothing to warn you that they are going to stop. I was driving a motor car this wet afternoon behind a tramcar which pulled up smartly and it was with great difficulty I managed to avoid bumping into it. I hardly knew whether to take the right-hand side or risk knocking someone over on the left; and that is usually what happens. It is essential that some warning should be given that the tramcar is going to stop. With a motor car the foot brake operates the light at the back and I suppose some such device could be used on tramcars. At any rate motorists should be given some indication of what a tramcar is going to do.

Take the example of ships. You do not get ships adopting different signals. I used to have a small motor cruiser and come up what is called London River on it, and I had to get to know the various siren toots of the tugs. If they blew four short and one long it meant turning to port, and so on. You did not find that they had different systems of signalling. In the case of bicycles there are reflectors in a certain place; you do not find a bicyclist at night with it on the top of his head or in the middle of his back. I hope the Government will give some satisfactory reply on this Question, which I regard as a serious matter in view of the enormous number of accidents to-day on the roads.

THE PARLIAMENTARY UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH)

My Lords, I have absolutely no quarrel to pick with the noble Lord for the way in which he moved his Motion and I am very glad to have the opportunity straightaway of correcting the misapprehension that this very important subject has not been interesting closely the Minister of Transport. It has been interesting the Minister for a very considerable time and he has given the whole subject a great deal of careful thought. As your Lordships know, amongst the many provisions of the Road Traffic Act, 1930, there was one which empowers the Minister of Transport to make Regulations with regard to appliances to be fitted for … intimating any intended change of the speed or direction of a motor vehicle and the use of any such appliance. Up to now it has not been considered necessary to make the fitting either of direction indicators or of stop lights compulsory, but the use of such appliances as an alternative to hand signalling is recognised in the Highway Code.

The advisability of making regulations laying down requirements with which such devices, if fitted, should conform, has been considered from time to time since the Road Traffic Act was passed. Early this year, however, it was decided not to make regulations on the subject, but to write to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders and inform them, and through them the motor trade generally, of the Minister's views on the subject. The motives which actuated the Minister in adopting this course were, in the first place, that he was loth to make additional regulations. There were already a large number of them and he did not want to make any unnecessary regulations. If he had adopted certain definite and specific regulations the effect might have been to stifle any inventive-minded person likely to devise something satisfactory. Admittedly the whole position with regard to these direction indicators was in a more or less experimental stage and it might have been unfortunate to come to a final decision until it had been possible to try out a large number of devices.

I should like to quote a considerable portion of the letter which the Minister wrote to the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders because I think it lies at the root of the whole matter. The letter is headed: "Direction Indicators on Motor Vehicles" and proceeds: The Highway Code, as your society will be aware, contains the following paragraph under the heading of 'Signals.' When you intend to stop, slow down or change direction, give the appropriate signal clearly, definitely and in good time. ('Hand signals for this purpose are fully described and illustrated in the Appendix (see page 18). Where the appropriate signal can be given effectively by a suitable mechanical or electrical device, there is no objection to its use'). The letter continues: The Minister has carefully considered whether or not he should exercise his powers under the Road Traffic Act, 1930, to make regulations controlling the design and use of these devices. He is opposed to the making of unnecessary regulations and he does not wish to do anything which would discourage the production of effective devices for this purpose. For the present, therefore, the Minister does not propose to make any regulations on this subject. At the same time I am to point out that if signalling devices are to be relied on instead of hand signals, the indications which they give of the intentions of the driver must be clear and unmistakable and easily visible to the drivers of other vehicles by whom it is intended that they should be seen. They should not depend for their efficacy upon any arbitrary interpretation to be attached to any particular symbol or coloured light other than the ordinary significance attached to an arrow and to a red stop light. It may of course be necessary for the Minister to make regulations on the subject if unsatisfactory devices for the purpose under consideration are marketed or if for any other reason regulations appear to him to be necessary in the interests of public safety. I think that letter was couched in very clear terms and I believe it commanded the general assent of the various organisations which were interested in the subject. It was undoubtedly hoped that this letter would be a sufficient safeguard against the adoption on any considerable scale of direction indicators which did not conform with the views expressed by the letter. During the course of this summer certain devices were put upon the market which did not appear prima facie to conform to the views distinctly expressed in this letter, and as a result, as the noble Lord has told the House, the Minister referred the whole of this subject to the Departmental Committee which had already been set up to consider the question of traffic signs generally, and they were asked to deal with this matter as a matter of urgency. The terms of reference to the Committee were as follows: To consider the proposed use of certain types of direction indicators on motor vehicles on a large scale and to make recommendations at an early date as to whether the powers of the Minister of Transport to make regulations with regard to such devices should be exercised and, if so, in what manner. I am only able to say that the Committee have examined various devices of this description which are, or have been, proposed to be used on a considerable scale on motor vehicles, and I understand that their report will be very shortly in the hands of the Minister. Clearly until that report is received the Minister is not able to announce his policy definitely with regard to the matter, but I may inform the House that the report of the Committee will be published as soon as the Minister of Transport has had time to consider it.

Lord de Clifford referred to what he described as a leakage of information on the subject with regard to the deliberations of this Committee. I regret that I am not in a position to tell him anything with regard to the matter. I know nothing about it whatsoever, but what I can say is that the statement in that newspaper on that day was entirely unauthorised. He further asked me a question as to the action of the Commissioner of Police with regard to these devices. I can only tell him that we do know that the Commissioner of Police has tried out a certain number of devices on taxi-cabs in London, but up to now we have received no report with regard to the matter. I am afraid that that is all that I can tell him with regard to the first part of his Question, but I hope it will go to show the House that the Minister is giving the matter very careful thought, and hopes to be in a position to make a more definite statement at a very early date.

I confess I did not realise that the noble Lord's Motion dealt with the question of other types of automatic and semi-automatic signalling on the road. It may have been my fault but I did not realise that it dealt with more than signals on cars. The noble Lord did raise the matter, however, and it is of course of the very greatest importance to the users of the road generally. I do not know if he remembers that I had an opportunity of explaining the position of die Minister, and of the Government generally, with regard to this matter at the end of last summer, and I think I made it quite clear then that although there had been certain delays in London, and progress was not quite so quick in London as in the provinces, at any rate the matter was being pressed forward and there was a likelihood of a considerable increase in the number of points and streets where these automatic signals would be used—a likelihood of a considerable increase within a comparatively short time. The Minister is certainly fully aware of the value of this form of signalling, and is fully aware of the success it has attained where it has been tried. On the other hand it is only fair to issue one note of warning, and that is that I think it would be fatal, as it were, to adopt these signals broadcast throughout London and the suburban areas in places where their location is not really warranted. Probably it would only have the effect of having these signals disregarded, and result in a worse situation than before.

The noble Lord referred to what he had seen in New York when he went over to the United States, and described how a motor car was able to pass the whole way through the City at a level fifteen miles an hour without being stopped or interrupted. I personally have not myself indulged in, or seen anybody else indulge in, the new game of "beating the light" in Oxford Street, but I can tell him that these lights are designed for this very purpose, that you can travel down Oxford Street at sixteen miles an hour, if the road is clear, and be entirely uninterrupted, and that is the point in instituting these new automatic signals throughout the country. This point is very carefully considered as one of the primary essentials that are necessary. The noble Lord also referred to traffic actuated signals being used. They are being used in increased numbers, and are proving satisfactory. At first it was thought in the Ministry that only light traffic could be dealt with by means of this type of signal, but it was found possible to deal with heavy traffic as well, and further experiments are being made. I do not know whether there is any further point made by the noble Lord that I have missed, but if so I will try and give an answer to it. I do assure him that the matter he has raised is considered to be of the greatest importance by the Minister, and that we hope considerable progress will be made in London with regard to it within a short time.

EARL HOWE

My Lords, may I be forgiven if I say a few words on the speech which we have just heard from the noble Earl? First I should like to say how much I welcome the announcement he made of the general principle followed by the Ministry with regard to motor vehicles—namely, that they are opposed to unnecessary regulations. Many sections of the motor trade, and ninny motor car users, have been very nervous in regard to the very great powers vested in the Ministry for making regulations affecting the motor traffic, and the announcement which the noble Earl has made, that the Ministry is opposed to making unnecessary regulations, will be very well received indeed. The subject which the noble Lord has raised is one of the very greatest importance and I was relieved to hear what the noble Earl has said with regard to the question of signalling on cars. There is danger that signals which do not conform to the memorandum read out may be widely adopted. There is a type of vehicle being fitted with light signals, the meaning of which certainly is not obvious to everyone, and I hope that the Minister will keep a careful eye upon them.

With regard to the question of signal lights in the streets, there is one point which I desire to submit to the Minister, and that is the question of the location of these lights. At present they are fitted at the side of the street, and that is exactly the place where they should not be. There are two reasons why they should not be there. First of all, the careful driver should keep his main attention fixed upon the roadway ahead of him, and should not be concentrating his mind on the side of the road, which he must do if he is going to pay attention to a large number of signal lights, such as you find in Oxford Street. Again, the lights at the side of the road may very easily be obscured by certain classes of vehicle, in which case the motorist may quite easily over-run the lights without being aware of it. I know that careful trials have been carried out, but abroad in several cities which I have driven through you sometimes find lights hanging right over the centre of the crossroads, suspended from wires. In that position they are very much more clearly visible to drivers. They are not nearly so liable to be obscured. I know the answer is that they may be obscured by the construction of the bodywork of cars, but that all depends on the height at which they are suspended.

I hope that, this particular matter can be explored a little more. I should imagine that one central light, as compared with four lighting positions, at a cross-roads would be much cheaper, and therefore we might get an extended use of light signals. I am quite certain that light signals very definitely make for safety on our roads, and I do very much hope that it will be found possible for public authorities and for the Ministry of Transport to do everything in their power to encourage them. On the whole I welcome very much the Minister's statement, and I hope that this important question will be kept carefully under review.

There is only one other point, and that is the question of the pedestrian. The noble Lord, Lord de Clifford, mentioned this in his remarks. At present pedestrians do not seem to realise the significance of the lights. I do not know what can be done to help them, but I am perfectly convinced that if we in this country could have definite crossing places for pedestrians, such as you find in practically every large city throughout Europe, it would make for greater safety for them. If those crossing places could be marked out by studs on the highway I am sure that, in the event of any pedestrian being injured between the studs, the magistrates, as in the case of French cities and Italian cities, would deal very severely with the motorist who was responsible. At the same time, the pedestrian could be encouraged to look at the lights. But something ought certainly to be done to help the pedestrian to understand the significance of the lights. The Ministry is opposed to having signs in unnecessary places, and signs are dotted about in places where the necessity for them is not quite clear. There are two lights on the road leading to Croydon for the use of pedestrians, which are very largely used as a new game for children. We do not want to cry "Wolf !" in connection with these light signals. They must either mean something or not, and I am not at all sure that those signals erected for the use of pedestrians, being taken advantage of, as they are, by small children, can always be justified.

THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH

I know that type. It is not the exact type that I was referring to when I spoke.

LORD DE CLIFFORD

My Lords, I beg to thank the noble Earl for his reply. I especially desire to join with my noble friend Lord Howe in saying how glad I am that the Ministry realises that a mass of regulations is not good for the motor trade. While I shall be very interested to see the final results of the Departmental Committee on Traffic Signs, I shall also be very interested to see how they compare with the report which has already been published. I beg leave to withdraw my Motion.

Motion for Papers, by leave, withdrawn.