Lords Sitting of 24 March 1932

Preamble
The House met at eleven of the clock, The EARL OF LUCAN on the Woolsack.
SOUTH WALES ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
Read 2a.

LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES (SUPERANNUATION) TEMPORARY PROVISIONS BILL. [H.L.]
LORD TEMPLEMORE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Chairman of Committees, I beg to move that Standing Order No. 171 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of this Bill.
Moved, That Standing Order No. 171 be considered in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said Bill, and that the Bill be now read 3a.—(Lord Templemore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: Bill read 3a accordingly, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; and read 1a.
MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROVISIONAL ORDERS (MARGATE AND YEOVIL) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR AIR (THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY): My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend the Leader of the House, I beg to move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its
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being suspended for this day's sitting.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I should like to draw the attention of the noble Marquess to the wording of these Motions for the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX. As I said yesterday, we are not offering any objection at all to the suspension of the Standing Order, but, as the frequency with which this occurs is likely to be the subject of quotation in the future and reference will be made to the occasions on which the Standing Order is suspended, I would like to ask that there should be some uniformity with regard to the stage at which this Motion is made and the wording of the Motion itself. I do not refer to occasions where the Standing Order has to be suspended—as in the case of the Notice given on November 17—in the event of a Bill coming here from another place and having to be dealt with under this procedure. In those cases, naturally, the wording has to be different.
But I do not understand why, for instance, on February 29, the noble and learned Viscount the Leader of the House moved the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX for that day's sitting, which was with regard to the Import Duties Bill, but on March 16, which was precisely the same situation, no Motion was made for the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX, but in the Orders of the Day on the Second Reading of the Financial Emergency Enactments (Continuance) Bill the words were put "Second Reading and Standing Order No. XXXIX to be considered in order to its being dispensed with." It was on that occasion that I, thinking that the usual procedure was that the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX should precede the Second Reading, intervened in the debate at an early stage, and I think that my intervention was the cause really of the slight breeze that occurred upon that occasion. Certainly my noble friend Lord Marley was not responsible for that, but I think that upon that occasion I was under the impression that the suspension of the Standing Order preceded the Second Reading, and I do not quite understand why the wording on March 16 should have been different from that on February 29.

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To-day I understand that, the Consolidated Fund (No. 1) Bill only having just come up from another place, it was necessary that the suspension of the Standing Order should be moved in its present form. But again here I do not quite see why the wording is different from what it was on February 29. On February 29 the Leader of the House moved that Standing Order No. XXXIX "be suspended for this day's sitting." To-day it is to be "considered in order to its being suspended for this day's sitting." These are, perhaps, small matters, but as I say with the frequency of the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX and the possibility in future of somebody desiring to protest against this suspension, it is as well that there should be, if possible, uniformity. I am not asking the noble Marquess who is leading the House to-day to reply to these questions of mine. I only would ask him to see if possible that there is greater uniformity, not only in the wording of the Motion but in the occasions which are allowed for those who desire to protest against it.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I am sure no one can quarrel with the noble Lord for raising a matter of this importance and I will endeavour to give him the reply which he desires to hear. I am given to understand that when the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX deals, with one Bill the Notice is so given, and that it is taken not as the "Business of the House" when it applies to one Bill. But on other occasions, when there is more than one Bill and when there is a question of a Bill coming up, the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX then becomes the "Business of the House" and is open to discussion. On this occasion the noble Lord is aware that I gave Notice of the suspension of the Standing Order yesterday. That was to deal with the Tanganyika Bill which is coining up now and which it is desirable that we should be able to pass through all its stages. We were also aware that there was another Bill, the Consolidated Fund Bill, coming up. That Bill did not reach your Lordships' House until to-day, consequently the procedure adopted is the procedure which has been adopted before. In the book which I
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have before me I find that the Standing Order has been previously suspended to pass Bills through all their stages, in regard to the Consolidated Fund Bill once in March, 1899, in December, 1909, in June, 1906, and so on.
That is the answer to the question which the noble Lord has put to me. If he has any further desire for specific knowledge on this point and feels that uniformity has not been pursued, I shall be glad to go more fully into the matter and deal with it again on some future occasion after the Recess, when I may be able to deal with it in a more efficient manner than I am able to do to-day. The matter will be looked up for the purpose of giving the specific answer which the noble Lord desires. But if he goes into it himself I think he will be able to see that we shall be altering the practice of forty years.
LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE: My Lords, I am very much obliged to the noble Marquess for the explanation he has given, which covers a large part of the questions I asked him. The question that does not seem to me to be covered is the procedure on February 29, when the suspension of Standing Order No. XXXIX was only on account of the Import Duties Bill and yet it was the "Business of the House." But, perhaps that is also capable of explanation and I will not press the matter at the moment.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I think the answer to that is the answer I have already given to the noble Lord—that there was a possibility of another Bill coming up.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Standing Order No. XXXIX suspended accordingly.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 1) BILL.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ROCHESTER): My Lords, Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Rochester.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived. Bill read 3a, and passed.

ILKLEY ELECTRICITY (EXTEN SION) ORDER, 1932.
THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY OF THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT (THE EARL OF PLYMOUTH): My Lords, in reference to the Ilkley Electricity (Extension) Order, 1932, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee on Tuesday last, be approved.—(The Earl of Plymouth.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TANGANYIKA AND BRITISH HONDURAS LOANS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, this is a short Bill of six clauses; it is really two Bills put into one. The first part of it, consisting of two clauses, is to enable the Treasury to guarantee the capital and interest of a loan which is to be raised on behalf of Tanganyika. What has happened is that up till 1929 Tanganyika was in the very happy position of having a large surplus each year. Therefore the Secretary of State of the day, as I think quite rightly, used part of that surplus in capital expenditure in the way of building bridges, roads, schools and so on. Then, unfortunately, the economic blizzard hit Tanganyika in the same way as it hit other parts of the world. The revenue fell, the exports fell and Tanganyika found itself in a rather difficult position with a somewhat small working capital. It therefore seemed right, and it was agreed to unanimously in another place, that Tanganyika should be allowed to raise a loan to repay itself some of the income which it had used in capital expenditure.
Your Lordships will realise how difficult has been the situation for that Mandated Territory when I tell you that sisal, which is the principal article of export, averaged £32 per ton in 1929 and now the gold price is slightly over £12 per ton. I hope your Lordships will agree that this country is justified in coming to the assistance of this Mandated Territory
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and that this loan is justified. Further, that we are also justified in giving a guarantee both as regards capital and interest when the loan is raised.
With regard to British Honduras it is a sad story. Belize, the capital, with a population of 15,000, was struck by a hurricane on September 10 last. It was outside the area in which hurricanes are anticipated, with the result that its buildings had not been built with a view to standing up against a misfortune of that kind. The result was that out of 4,000 houses some 3,000 were utterly destroyed and the remainder were seriously damaged. As I say, the population was only 15,000, but it is estimated that 1,000 of that population were killed, although it is quite impossible to say what the number actually was, and 7,000 were injured. A great many buildings had to be burned. The dead were buried under them and in order to prevent an outbreak of disease it was necessary to destroy them by fire. Naturally after a disaster of that kind, the Colony was not in a position to be able to execute the necessary repairs, and in order to put them on their feet again and not delay the return to prosperity, it was absolutely essential to raise a loan. It is proposed that that should be done under the Local Loans Act, by which money is raised in this country and then advanced as necessary to the Colony for its requirements.
If your Lordships turn to the Appendix of the Bill you will see the objects on which it is proposed that the money should be expended. Part of it is for the rebuilding of schools. I think every single school building was destroyed, except those belonging to the Roman Catholic mission, and every building, except public buildings, was destroyed or badly damaged. It is also hoped that the opportunity will be taken to try and move some of the population of Belize, which is really greater than employment can be found for, from the town into the country districts, and to promote once more small agriculture, of which there is considerable hope of success in the country regions. I hope your Lordships will agree that this country is right in coming to the assistance of one of His Majesty's Colonies, and in helping this Colony by allowing the money to be raised

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in this way and guaranteed. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Stanhope.)
LORD MOUNT TEMPLE: Can the noble Earl let me know what will be the term of years for repayment? I see in both parts the period "not exceeding forty years" is set down, and that the actual number of years is to be at the discretion of the Secretary of State and the Treasury. Can the noble Earl say what the term will be? If he cannot I shall understand.
EARL STANHOPE: I am afraid I cannot without notice, although I think I probably could in communication with the noble Lord presently. I imagine that it is not a definite fixed term, but that in each case, if the Colony recovers rapidly, the term could be shortened.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House forthwith: House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.
Bill read 3a, and passed.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills:—

Consolidated Fund (No. 1).

Dangerous Drugs.

Isle of Man (Customs).

Tanganyika and British Honduras Loans.

Rating and Valuation.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

NORTH-EASTERN ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL. SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
TOTTENHAM AND DISTRICT GAS ORDER, 1932.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Tottenham and District Gas Company: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

THE RECESS.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I should like to inform you that the House will meet again on April 12. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn.
Moved, That this House do now adjourn till Tuesday, April 12 next.—(The Marquess of Londonderry.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at ten minutes past twelve o'clock.