Lords Sitting of 8 March 1932

Preamble
The House met at a quarter past four of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
HOVE PIER BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, the first item on the Order Paper to-day is the Hove Pier Bill, and I propose to ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw it, because I have just heard that a noble Lord wishes to oppose the Bill on Second Reading, and, in accordance with custom, I would venture therefore to postpone the Second Reading. When a Bill of this' kind is opposed it is not usual for the Chairman of Committees to move the Second Reading, but for an independent Peer to defend the Bill. Therefore I do not propose to move the Motion that the Bill be now read a second time.
LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES (SUPERANNUATION) TEMPORARY PROVISIONS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment.

CHANCEL, REPAIRS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee; read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.-(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly:
[The EARL OF ONSLOW in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Future proceedings to enforce liability to repair chancels.
(2) The notice to repair shall further -require the person served (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the defendant")—

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(a) to admit in the prescribed form and manner and within the prescribed time that on the date when the notice was served (hereafter in this Act referred to as "the relevant date") he was liable to repair the chancel; and

(b) (subject to the provisions of the next following section) to put the chancel in proper repair within three months from that date.

(3) If the defendant does not admit in the prescribed form and manner and within the prescribed time that he was at the relevant date liable to repair the chancel, the responsible authority may bring proceedings claiming a declaration that he was so liable, and in those proceedings the court shall grant the declaration claimed, if it finds that the defendant would, but for the provisions of this Act have been liable to be admonished to repair the chancel by the appropriate ecclesiastical court in a cause of office promoted against him in that court on the relevant date.
(4) If the defendant admits in the pre scribed form and manner (whether within the prescribed time or not) that he was at the relevant date liable to repair the chancel, or is declared by the court to have been so liable, and the chancel is not put in proper repair within the appropriate period, the responsible authority may recover from the defendant as a debt due to them the sum required to put the chancel in proper repair, and may themselves put the chancel in repair without prejudice to proceedings to recover that sum.
For the purpose of this subsection the expression "the appropriate period" means, in a case where liability is admitted, a period of three months from the relevant date, and, in a case whore a declaration is made, a period of three months from the date of the declaration, or in either case such longer period as may be agreed in writing between the responsible authority and the defendant or fixed by the court on the application of the defendant.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY)THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT SANKEY) moved to leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4) and insert:
"(2) At any time after the expiration of a period of one month from the date when the notice to repair was served, the responsible authority may, if the chancel has not been put in proper repair, bring proceedings against the person on whom the notice was served to recover the sum required to put the chancel in proper repair:
Provided that, on the application of the responsible authority made at any time after the service of the notice to repair, the court may, if satisfied that the chancel is in urgent need of repair and that no sufficient measures are being taken to put it in proper repair, give the responsible authority leave to bring such proceedings as aforesaid before the expiration of the said period and also leave to repair the chancel without prejudicing their claim in those proceedings.
(3) In any proceedings brought as aforesaid, the court, if it finds that the defendant would, but for the provisions of this Act, have been liable to be admonished to repair the chancel by the appropriate ecclesiastical court in a cause of office promoted against him in that court on the date when the notice to repair was served, shall give judgment for the responsible authority for such sum as appears to the court to represent the cost of putting the chancel in proper repair:
Provided that if (in a case where such leave as aforesaid has not been given) it appears to the court that the defendant is and always has been ready and willing to put the chancel in proper repair but had not sufficient time to do so before the commencement of the proceedings, the court may adjourn the proceedings for such time as appears to the court to be sufficient to enable the defendant to put the chancel in proper repair, and if the chancel is put in proper repair within that time or such longer time as the court may allow, the court shall give judgment for the defendant."
The noble and learned Viscount said: I beg to move the Amendments which are standing in my name. Although they look rather formidable, their object is to simplify, and I think they will simplify, the procedure under this Bill. It will be within your Lordships' recollection that the object of the Bill was to transfer certain jurisdiction from the Consistory or Bishops' Court to the County Court, and for that purpose the first one or two provisions of the Bill were framed. There is no dispute as to those, but the remaining part of the Bill was for the purpose of devising the procedure which is to take place in the County Court when the new jurisdiction is transferred to it. The procedure in the Bill, as it stood, was, unfortunately, rather of a complicated character. First of all there was to be a notice to the person who was liable to do the repairs. Then he was asked to make admission that he was liable, and, if he refused to make an admission that he was liable, it was provided that there should be proceedings for a declaration as to liability. That was rather a complicated procedure, and not only the most rev. Primate (the Archbishop of Canterbury) expressed a hope that it might be simplified, but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, said that he thought it was a great pity, when we were setting up a new jurisdiction, that we should not, if possible, make it as simple and as economical as possible.
In those circumstances I suggested to your Lordships that the matter should be considered by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Atkin, and myself before it came before the House in Committee. I am glad to say that have had the advantage of several consultations with my noble and learned friend and also with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Tomlin, another of the Law Lords, and in the result their suggestions have been put into new proposals which are now before your Lordships. If I may be allowed to say so, those suggestions are very much better than the original proposals in the Bill and they certainly will lead both to economy and expedition in the administration of this particular class of case. The proposal is that we should leave out all. those subsections which first of all ask for an admission of liability and then, in the event of an admission not being made, provide for proceedings for a declaration of liability and so forth, and that we should rather approximate the proceedings to those of the ordinary landlord and tenant cause. That is done by the new subsections which it is proposed to substitute for subsections (2), (3) and (4).
Under those, there will be no need to have that rather cumbrous procedure of a request for an admission followed by a declaration, but there will be just the ordinary notice and after that proceedings taken to fix the liability upon the proper persons. Subsection (3) fixes the liability upon the defendant who is liable as the impropriator of the tithe and also enables matters to be dealt with quite quickly by the County Court Judge in the event of it being found necessary to do immediate repairs. I beg to move therefore, in Clause 2, to leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4) and to substitute for them the new subsections as printed. I must again express the indebtedness of the Government to my noble and learned friend Lord Atkin for the assistance he has given us in the matter. I beg now to move the first of my Amendments.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out subsections (2), (3) and (4) and insert the said new subsections.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD ATKIN: I may perhaps be allowed to say in reference to what has
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fallen from the learned and noble Viscount the Lord Chancellor, that it is very gratifying to find that he has responded so readily to the suggestion that the legal procedure in this Bill might be made rather more expeditious and less complicated. I am fully satisfied that the Amendments lie has now suggested really do improve the Bill in this direction. There will be much less delay and much less possible expense, and the procedure is very much simpler. I have no doubt myself that there will be few cases in which this Bill is likely to be required at all, but if it if required it seems to me that there is now a very simple procedure provided by which persons interested in chancels can get necessary repairs done.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Leave for responsible authority to do repairs themselves.
3.—(1) The responsible authority may, together with the notice to repair, serve a specification giving full particulars of the work required to put the chancel in proper repair and of the estimated cost thereof, and in that event the notice to repair, instead of requiring the defendant to put the chancel in repair, may state that, at the expiration of twenty-one days from the relevant date, the responsible authority intend to apply to the court for leave to do the work set out in the specification, without prejudice to any other proceedings which may be brought by them against the defendant under this Act.
(2) The responsible authority may, at any time after serving the notice to repair, serve on the defendant such a specification as aforesaid, and in that event may serve, together with the specification or at any time after serving the specification, a further notice in the prescribed form stating that at the expiration of twenty-one days from the service of the further notice, they intend to apply to the court for such leave as aforesaid.
(3) On any such application for leave, the court, if satisfied that the chancel is in urgent need of repair, may order that the responsible authority be at liberty to do the work set out in the specification, or such part thereof; as the court thinks necessary to put the chancel in proper repair, without prejudice to any other proceedings which may be brought by them against the defendant under this Act.
(4) At any time after the court has made an order under this section, the responsible authority may, notwithstanding that the appropriate period under subsection (5) of the last foregoing section has not expired.

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recover from the defendant as a debt due to them the sum required to do the work mentioned in the order, if the defendant has admitted in the prescribed form and manner (whether within the prescribed time or not) that lie was liable at the relevant date to put the chancel in repair or has been declared by the court to have been so liable; and for the purposes of this subsection any proceedings under this section may be combined with any proceedings under subsection (4) of the last foregoing section.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved to leave out Clause 3. The noble and learned Viscount said: This is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Leave out Clause 3.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4:
General provisions as to proceedings under Act.
(3) No appeal shall lie under Section one hundred and twenty of the County Courts Act, 1S8S, from any determination or direction of a Judge of County Courts in any such proceedings without the leave of the Judge, unless the claim in the proceedings is a claim for a sum exceeding twenty pounds or for a declaration.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR moved, in subsection (3), to leave out "or for a declaration". The noble and learned Viscount said: This also is a consequential Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 17, leave out ("or for a declaration").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.

CHANCEL, REPAIRS BILL. [H.L.]
  BURY CORPORATION BILL. CAMBRIDGE CORPORATION BILL. WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Reports from His Majesty's Attorney-General received and ordered to lie on the Table.

NANTWICH GAS ORDER, 1932.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Nantwich Urban District Council:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

HARROGATE GAS ORDER, 1932.
Special Order proposed to be made on the application of the Harrogate Gas Company:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and referred to the Special Orders Committee.

RATING AND VALUATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed.
House adjourned at twenty-six minutes past four o'clock.