HL Deb 23 June 1932 vol 85 cc185-92

Adaptations and Modifications of this Act in its application to Scotland.

3. In the following provisions of the Act, that is to say:— The provisions of Part II (except Sections twenty-four, twenty-five, thirty-three, thirty-four, thirty-five, thirty-six, thirty-seven), The First Schedule, for the words "Secretary of State" the words "Scottish Education Department" shall be substituted.

4. In the following provisions of this Act, that is to say:— The provisions of Parts II and IV except subsection (3) of Section fifty-four, Section eighty-five, The First Schedule, for the words "local authority" the words "education authority" shall be substituted; for the word "local" and the words "a local" used in relation to an authority the word "education" and the words "an education" shall be respectively substituted; for the expression "a local authority" the expression "an education authority" shall be substituted, and for the word "district" used in relation to a local authority the word "area" shall be substituted.

Section. Adaptations and Modifications.
S. 19. The following subsection shall be inserted after subsection (1):
(2) It shall not be lawful for a court of summary jurisdiction to order that any child shall be whipped and Section seventy-four of the Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1860, shall, except in so far as it applies to cases tried on indictment, cease to have effect.

6. The following section shall be inserted after Section eighty-four of the Act:—

Power of Secretary of State may be transferred.

It shall be lawful for the Secretary of State, with the consent of the Treasury, from time to time to make an order transferring to the Scottish Education Department or to the Department of Health for Scotland any power for the time being possessed by him under this Act (not being a power under Part I of this Act), and by such order to make any adjustment consequential on the transfer and to provide for any matter necessary or proper for giving full effect to the transfer, and, on any such order being made, the powers so transferred shall be exerciseable by the Scottish Education Department, or the Department of Health for Scotland, as the case may be.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in paragraph 3, to leave out "for the words 'Secretary of State' the words 'Scottish Education Department' shall be substituted." The noble Duke said: My Lords, it may be said that the words proposed are as things exist now, but I think it is most desirable, from every point of view, that the Bill applying to Scotland, so far as it can be, should be the same as the Bill for England. The Secretary of State is to be the authority in England, and we have been assured that we shall be safe with him, and that he will not do anything foolish. For some extraordinary reason the Secretary of State for Scotland, or the Scottish Office, do not want that in Scotland. They want to get out of the responsibility, and to put it upon these various Departments. Of course these Departments are all under the Secretary of State, but it is not nearly so satisfactory as having the Secretary of State himself, and therefore I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 87, leave out lines 6 and 7.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

The Amendment which the noble Duke has moved is in effect to substitute for the Scottish Education Department the Secretary of State for Scotland.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

The Amendment I move is to leave in the Secretary of State.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

The noble Duke seems to be under the impression that if the words "Secretary of State" are retained there will be a greater dignity, if not a greater authority, than if the words "Scottish Education Department" were substituted. But the Secretary of State for Scotland is, in effect, the head of the Scottish Education Department. Formally, I understand, the Scottish Education Department is a Committee of the Privy Council, and I believe that at the moment Mr. Baldwin, as Lord President of the Council, is technically at the head of the Scottish Education Department.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

I think the noble Viscount is wrong; I think the Secretary of State for Scotland is.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

I think the noble Duke is wrong. The Secretary of State for Scotland is called the Vice-President of the Board of Education. But the noble Duke knows quite well that in effect the work is done by the Secretary of State for Scotland in his capacity as administrative Minister for the work of the educational bodies in Scotland. This is important, because this Amendment is related to another Amendment that the noble Duke has on the Paper. I think he objects to certain powers under this Bill being kept in the hands of, or being handed over to, the Scottish education authorities in preference to the local councils. And therefore we must regard this Amendment as having a relation to another Amendment that the noble Duke has on the Paper. And it is very desirable, seeing that so much of the work under this Bill is going to be administered by the local education authorities in Scotland, that the head of the Department should be in effect the Secretary of State, who is nominally called the Vice-President of the Board of Education in Scotland. I think that the noble Duke will not press his Amendment, because this is a matter rather of phraseology than of any material difference it would make.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

My Lords, I quite grant what the noble Viscount says, but if there is this difference why not keep it as it is? That is the point. I may say also that the Education Department in Scotland has a very unsavoury reputation for extravagance, though it is better since the crisis of last autumn. I should have much more confidence if the words "Secretary of State" were in. However, I will not press it.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in paragraph 4, after "the First Schedule," to leave out all words down to and including the last "and." The noble Duke said: My Lords, this Amendment is not, as the noble Viscount thought, connected with the last one. I want to ask for an explanation. The Scottish Education authority was originally an ad hoc body, but it was not found that this body was very satisfactory. It was generally condemned. The result was that in the last Local Government Act the ad hoc authority was done away with, and a committee of the county council became the education authority. I have no doubt that in the old days "the education authority" was the right term to have, but I think now it is wrong, and that it would be very much more satisfactory in every way if the words "local authority" were re-tained, the same as they are in England.

Amendment moved— Page 87, leave out lines 13 to 18.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, I am sorry to differ from the noble Duke. It is not a matter of great importance, but as a matter of fact, at a private meeting while the application clauses of this Bill to Scotland were under consideration I myself strongly urged that the words used should be "local authority" instead of "education authority." My reason for doing so was that in carrying out the functions which come under the provisions of this Bill some things would be better done, for example boarding out, by the public assistance department, or else by the public health department, and others by the education committee of a local authority. For those reasons I should have preferred the words "local authority." But I am informed the difficulty arises in the case of some twenty large burghs which are not separate local authorities, and powers would be given to them which ought to belong to the county council in which they are already represented. On the whole, the balance of opinion seems to be in favour of putting in the words "education authority." I am advised that these functions, which relate not to education pure and simple, but to questions of public assistance and public health, can still be perfectly well referred by a county council to the appropriate department, even though the words "education authority" remain, because a county council—or, in the case of the four large cities, the town council—is the education authority and can so act. I hope the noble Duke will not press the Amendment.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord who has just spoken out of his great knowledge of Scottish local government. These are mysteries into which I have never been able with much success to penetrate. The noble Lord, I think, has given an answer to the question which was put to me by the noble Duke, and I do not think that I can add anything in support of the reasons which he gave for the rejection of this Amendment.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

My Lords, I was quite aware of what the noble Lord told us. but I think the noble Viscount might have given us the Government's view. We still do not know what the Government's view is. However, I admit that it is not very important, and I will not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in paragraph 5, to leave out the reference to Section 19. The noble Duke said: My Lords, I beg to move.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

I accept this.

Amendment moved— Page 90, leave out lines 10 to 17.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

I beg to move the next amendment which stands on the Paper.

Amendment moved— Page 90, line 23 at end insert: ("S. 22—The proviso shall be omitted.")—(Viscount Snowden.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

The next three Amendments are all drafting.

Amendments moved—

Page 93, line 22, leave out ("and")

Page 93, line 23, at end insert ("and for the words clerk of the court' wherever they occur, the words 'sheriff clerk' shall be substituted")

Page 97, lino 6, at end insert: ("S. 75.—For the words 'any part of the principal Act or of this Act the words Part II of the principal Act' shall be substituted.")—(Viscount Snowden.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH, who had given Notice to move, in paragraph 5, in the reference to Section 83, to leave out "and Scottish Education Department," said: My Lords, this is very much the same as the Amendment we discussed before. I understand the Government are in favour of keeping it as it is, and I therefore will not move the Amendment.

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

My Lords, my next Amendment is really in the nature of a drafting Amendment. It is to make clear certain words in regard to the meaning of "summary conviction." The effect is to give jurisdiction to the police and justice of the peace courts as well as to the sheriff's court.

Amendment moved— Page 102, line 15, leave out ("wherever they occur") and insert ("in sub-paragraph (2)").—(Viscount Snowden.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved, in the list of Enactments Repealed, to leave out all reference to The Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892. The noble Duke said: My Lords, this is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 104, leave out lines 13 to 15.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

VISCOUNT SNOWDEN

I accept this.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 104 line 32, leave out ("twenty-one").—(Viscount Snowden.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved to leave out paragraph 6. The noble Duke said: My Lords, this is, I think, a really important Amendment. It may be said it is the same as the others which I have not pressed. This allows the Secretary of State to alter the Act of Parliament. The Secretary of State, I understand, as regards the English part of the Bill, has no such power, and I think it is entirely wrong, and creates a very bad precedent to allow the Secretary of State for Scotland to be able practically to override an Act of Parliament, and alter it at will, the only check on him being that he is subject to the consent of the Treasury. The Government may have some very good reason for this very strange provision, but I should think it is extraordinarily bad in principle. It seems to me that it is something Parliament should not allow. It gives the Secretary of State for Scotland a power which ought to be retained by Parliament itself.

Amendment moved— Page 105, leave out lines 29 to 42.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)

LORD POLWARTH

My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to point out that there is a precedent for this in the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, where the Secretary of State for Scotland has precisely the same power of transferring, and under that power he has transferred the care and control of the industrial schools in Scotland. That having already been done, I see no reason why the same power should not be given in regard to this. It certainly has proved a convenience, and is one of those matters of education that should be handed over to the Department which specially deals with education. It looks a somewhat drastic power to give, but there is a precedent for it, and I think it would probably work better than the existing system. It would simplify procedure and save time if the powers under this part of the Bill are transferred to the Department which has to administer them—the Department for which the Secretary of State remains responsible to Parliament.

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, the noble Duke has been so very obliging in meeting us that I am sorry I cannot give way about this, but I hope to satisfy him by explaining to him that this is not quite so formidable as it looks. In the first place there is an exact precedent, as the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, has said. We are not making a new departure. In the second place, it really is not giving to the Secretary of State a power which ought only to belong to Parliament. The Secretary of State is, as the noble Duke knows, the head of both the Department of Health and the Scottish Education Department. It is very inconvenient if, in the course of administration, he should find it necessary to rearrange departmental work, that he should be unable to shift from one Department to another so long as he is the Parliamentary head of both, and as long as he is responsible to Parliament for both, that the power should be stereotyped in the different Departments and that any rearrangement and economy which might be effected by rearrangement should be impossible without a special Act of Parliament. On that ground we have thought it desirable to take the power which the noble Lord, Lord Polwarth, has suggested has proved useful in the Act of 1918, not of course to get rid of and hand over to some outside body powers which the Secretary of State ought alone to be responsible to Parliament for, but to rearrange between his own Departments such powers and duties as are at present allotted to him where he sees that more efficiency or greater economy could be achieved by that means. I hope my noble friend will realise that that is not an altogether unreasonable proposal.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

My Lords, I must admit that I have not received much support, but I think the argument used against me is an extraordinarily bad one. I do not see why the Secretary of State should get rid of his responsibility when the unfortunate Secretary of State in England retains his responsibility. I object most strongly, as many others do, to giving more powers to the Department of Education, because they have simply wasted money all over the place and will do it again when they get the chance. I will not withdraw my Amendment.

On Question, Amendment negatived.