Lords Sitting of 13 July 1932

Preamble
The House met at half past eleven of the clock, The LORD CHANCELLOR on the Woolsack.
The Lord Glendyne—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

HUMBER BRIDGE BILL.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF ONSLOW): My Lords, I rise to move the Motion which stands in my name, and which deals with the Humber Bridge Bill. This Motion will enable, at least I hope it will, proceedings to be taken which seem to me a fair solution of a difficult problem. This Bill was carried over from last Session. If it were carried over again and then came up from the Commons it would go down as waiting for a Select Committee because the carryover would eliminate the Second Reading stage. Your Lordships are accustomed to carrying over in the ordinary way, but in this case it would be unjust to the parties because there has been a considerable difference in the finance of the Bill since it was first introduced. Originally money was to be provided by the Government, but now the Government are unable to make that provision and so the proposals to find the money must be of a different nature, and it seems desirable that your Lordships should have the opportunity of discussing the Bill again on Second Reading.
The effect of this Motion is that the Bill will be carried over until next Session and that all proceedings prior to the Second Reading will be regarded as pro forma. That will save considerable expense to the parties. As the third paragraph of the Motion states, the Standing Orders with which Private Bills have to comply will not be applied in this case. This deals with the notice, deposit of the Bill, plans and so forth. That has all been done, so it is unnecessary to do it again. But it has been felt that in the altered circumstances the parties should be allowed, if they wish, to lodge further Petitions, and so the last paragraph suggests that they should have that permis-

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sion. This Bill may never reach this House because it would have to be read a third time next Session in another place. But if it passed in another place and reaches your Lordships' House it will come up for Second Reading. Then, if it goes before a Committee, further Petitions in the altered circumstances may be deposited.
It is rare for Private Bills to be carried over twice. I have only been able to find one precedent and that is the Cardiff Extension Provisional Order Bill in 1921. That was carried over from August, 1921, and again in December. The Bill never received the Royal Assent because Parliament was subsequently dissolved. But I think it is clear there is a precedent for carrying over Private Bills twice. It is not often such a thing occurs because people want to get Bills through as quickly as they can. Your Lordships' House is very particular in considering carrying over and will only consent when there is a good and obvious reason for doing so. I think there is a good reason in the present instance and therefore I hope your Lordships will agree to the Motion.
Moved to resolve, That in case the Bill, brought from the House of Commons in the last Session and upon which the proceedings have been suspended in this House until the present Session, shall be brought from the House of Commons in the next Session of Parliament, the Agent for the Bill shall deposit in the Private Bill Office after the Bill shall have passed the House of Commons and prior to the First Reading thereof in this House, a declaration stating that the Bill is the same, in every respect, as the Bill at the last stage of the proceedings thereon in this House in the last Session; and, where any sum of money has been deposited, that such deposit has not been withdrawn, together with a certificate of that fact from the proper officer:
That the proceedings on the Bill shall be pro forma only in regard to every stage through which the same shall have already passed prior to the Second Reading and that no new fees be charged in regard to such stages, nor shall a further fee be charged if the Bill be read 2a in the next Session:
That the Standing Orders by which the proceedings on Bills are regulated Shall not apply to such Bill in regard to any
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of the stages through which the same shall have already passed:
That all Petitions already presented against the Bill shall stand referred to the Committee on the same Bill in the next Session of Parliament, with liberty to parties interested to lodge further Petitions by depositing the same in the Private Bill Office before three o'clock in the afternoon on or before the seventh day after the day on which the Bill shall have been brought from the House of Commons.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
A Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

PRIVATE BILLS AND SPECIAL ORDERS.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, on the Sunday Entertainments Bill I raised a point in regard to procedure. There was a paragraph in the Schedule which made a suggestion with regard to the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House and of another place, and it was held to be undesirable that the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House should be interfered with or governed by a clause in an Act of Parliament. I ventured therefore to suggest to the Government an alternative method which carries out what they wish. The object of the amendment of the Standing Order is to enable Orders under this Act to be considered in the same manner as Measures under the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act and the Government of India Act; that is to say, they are excepted from the Special Orders procedure. When I made my suggestion to the House your Lordships were good enough to give it approval and therefore I hope that you will assent to this amendment of the Standing Order as proposed.
Moved, That the Standing Orders relative to Private Bills and Special Orders be amended as follows:—
Standing Order 212, line 10, leave out ("and"); line 11, after ("Act") insert: ("and (c) any Orders made under the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932").—(The Earl of Onslow.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I would like to ask a question of the Chairman of Committees with

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reference to this proposal. I am afraid I must apologise to the House because I was not present in my place when the incident took place on the Sunday Entertainments Bill to which my noble friend has just referred. I gather that there was a provision in the Bill as it stood to the effect that no Order laid before Parliament should be deemed, for the purposes of the Standing Orders of either House, to be a Special Order unless the House so directed. Therefore such an Order would not go before the Special Orders Committee of the House in the absence of such direction, and my noble friend very properly said that that was not a matter which ought to be dealt with in an Act of Parliament but was a matter entirely for your Lordships to decide. Therefore it comes before you for decision.
If my noble friend will allow me I would press him to make one little further explanation. Why is it necessary that Orders under the Sunday Entertainments Act should be exempted from the procedure of the Special Orders Committee? I presume it is in the nature of an affirmative Resolution, in the jargon which has come to be used in connection with these questions, without which the Sunday Entertainments Act cannot operate. That would seem to be a very proper thing for the Special Orders Committee to consider and I do not know on what principle it is exempted. I look with some jealousy upon any action exempting from the operation of the Special Orders Committee any affirmative Resolution which is put into Acts of Parliament, because that Special Orders procedure appears to me to be very useful procedure. I hope your Lordships' House will not think it is because I have a sort of paternal interest in it that I venture to say so. I think it works well, and I think that that has been shown in the present Session. We have had at least two debates on matters referred by the House to the Special Orders Committee. After the sifting process has been gone through it has been referred to the House, and interesting debates have resulted, and no kind of delay or difficulty has arisen under the procedure.
For that reason I look with some jealousy upon any exemption, because I foresee, knowing what I do about the way in which Bills are drafted, pressure
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being put upon Ministers by their own Departments, who do not very much like the Special Orders procedure. I can foresee those Departments saying: "See that you put this in, and if you agree in Parliament to an affirmative Resolution, mind you put in some provision exempting it from the Special Orders procedure, because we might be held up by the Special Orders Committee." So pressure is put upon the Minister by his Department, which might lead to a general procedure of exempting from the Special Orders Committee particular affirmative Resolutions. We are all very temporary persons, and shall all pass away, but this procedure I hope will continue, and there may no longer be anyone in the House to watch the gradual eating away of this procedure, if it is not resisted—if I may use such an expression—at its very outset. I venture to ask my noble friend if he will add to his explanation the reasons which led him and others to agree to the view that these particular Orders should be exempted.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I think the explanation of the reason for exempting this provision should come from the Leader of the House, because it was a Government Bill, and the explanation of their policy should come from a member of the Government, but if I may give my explanation a little more clearly, there was in the Schedule of the Bill, in paragraph 9, I think, a provision that these Special Orders under the Sunday Entertainments Act should not be regarded as Special Orders for the purposes of the Standing Orders of either House. It was in the Bill. My pre-occupation was that I thought it undesirable that these Standing Orders of the House should be governed in any way by an Act of Parliament. As to whether it was per se desirable to exempt from the Standing Orders was a matter for the House itself to decide. I was less concerned with policy than procedure. The House gave the Bill a Second Reading after the Government had accepted the proposal which I had ventured to make, that it should be dealt with by Standing Order, and I therefore leave the explanation of the reasons which the Government had for wishing to exempt these Orders from the

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Special Orders procedure to the Leader of the House. As a matter of fact I am reminded that my attention was directed by the officers of the House to this matter, and that I took it up with the Government immediately I noticed the paragraph in the Schedule of the Bill. As regards the policy, I repeat that I would venture to leave that to the Leader of the House.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL STANHOPE): My Lords, I cannot claim to take the position of Lord Hailsham, who, as your Lordships are aware, has already started to attend a Conference of great importance in Canada, but my recollection is that the House felt that these Orders were likely to entail only small matters, relating to the extension of powers to areas to hold Sunday entertainments where the population so desired. No principle was involved and I think the House felt that it was to some extent a local government matter with which the House ought not to be troubled in having to go into details before a Special Orders Committee. All those of us who have had the privilege of being members of this House for some time will agree with the noble Marquess that we have a very valuable procedure in the Special Orders Committee, and, although I am not able to give a pledge on behalf of the Government, I think I may say that the suggestion of the noble Marquess will be borne in mind, at any rate by this Government.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I do not know whether your Lordships will give me permission to say one word, having regard to the special circumstances of the case. I feel that it would not be proper for me to challenge this Motion at the moment, because the House is not so fully attended as it sometimes is, and also the Leader of the House is absent upon matters of State of very great importance, and we should not like to have the appearance of putting any difficulty in the way of the Government at the present moment. I think it is only right, however, to say that so far as I am concerned I shall never consent to such a Motion again on another Bill, if I can get your Lordships to agree with me in resisting it.
On Question, Motion agreed to: Standing Orders amended accordingly.

WORKSOP GAS ORDER, 1932.
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Templemore, I beg to move that the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Order, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(Viscount Allendale.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DUNOON ELECTRICITY (EXTEN SION) ORDER, 1932.
MALDON AND DISTRICT ELEC TRICITY ORDER, 1932.
SKELMORLIE ELECTRICITY (EX TENSION) ORDER, 1932.
KIRKCUDBRIGHT AND DISTRICT ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1932.
BORTH AND YNYSLAS ELECTRICITY ORDER, 1932.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Plymouth, I beg to move that the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.
Moved, That the Special Orders, as reported from the Special Orders Committee yesterday, be approved.—(The Earl of Lucan.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY ENTERTAINMENTS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE AND CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPRO- PRIATION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 2a: Committee negatived: Read 3a, and passed.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

ROYAL COMMISSION.
The Royal Assent was given to the following Bills:—

Appropriation,

Sunday Entertainments,

National Health Insurance and Contributory Pensions.

House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

THE RECESS.
THE EARL OF LUCAN: My Lords, I beg to move, That the House on its adjournment do adjourn for business, other than, judicial business, to the 27th October next, except that if it appears to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor that the public interest requires that the House should meet at an earlier time during such adjournment, the Lord Chancellor may give Notice to the Peers that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such Notice and shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before one o'clock.