§ Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
§ THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL STANHOPE)My Lords, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee, on this Bill, with your Lordships' permission I would like to make a very short statement. As a result of the debate yesterday I have approached the Board of Trade to find out what methods they propose to adopt 170 in bringing the change of helm orders into effect, and I am authorised to state that if and when the Bill becomes an Act, before the method of giving helm orders is actually changed ample notice will be given. In no circumstances will the length of notice to the shipping industry be less than three months, but in all probability the actual length of notice will be six months. The Department does not propose to prescribe the method by which helm orders shall be given, but they do propose, as they always do, to call in the officers' associations and those concerned in the shipping industry, so that there should be full and definite consultation as to the best and safest method of bringing the change into effect. I hope that that assurance may to some extent satisfy Lord Merrivale that when the change is brought into effect it will be done in such a way that the seamen of this country will be able to adopt the change without any danger either to themselves or their great industry. I beg to move.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Stanhope.)
§ LORD MERRIVALEMy Lords, I should like to express my strong sense of obligation to the noble Earl for the manner in which he has promptly dealt with the difficulties which are inherent in this task which has devolved upon him. The noble Earl recognised, quite readily, that there is over a large area of those engaged in the shipping industry very profound anxiety as to the possible effect of a sudden change with regard to the helm orders which are instinctively in use among trained seamen. One of the objections which I ventured to raise yesterday was the possibility, as it seemed, of an almost immediate change in this respect. The noble Earl met that by saying that it is not proposed that the Order in Council shall take effect in less than a certain period, which I trust will be six months, because having waited for a good many years those concerned may, I think, possess their souls in patience, if they get their Statute and see it on the point of coming into operation. It will be an indication of their desire, if the time is made reasonably long.
With regard to the other matter, I do no think anybody would desire that the 171 Board of Trade should prescribe the new orders. There are difficulties. Everybody concerned knows that there are very considerable difficulties in finding something which is concise and which is unmistakable. The Board of Trade, as I understand, will discuss that matter with the officers' associations and put the subject in a position in which it can be said to be on a sound footing. There is one other thing which I hope the Board of Trade will take into consideration, and that is whether, with their compulsory powers of control of the mercantile marine, they should not impose upon shipowners generally the obligation to take charge at the earliest practicable time of the duty of seeing that the helmsmen who are hereafter to use the new orders shall have some reasonable opportunity, under fair conditions, of learning the effect of them. I must say that, for myself, I cannot doubt, although I have been very anxious about the whole matter from the information I have had, that if seamen under normal circumstances are practised in a reasonable set of orders they will fall into the new way. That is my belief.
When I say that it is obvious that I could not myself resist the noble Earl's Motion, if it is necessary that it should be made; and if this change is to take effect—and successive Governments have declared their intention that the Statute shall, if they can prevail upon Parliament, take effect—then the matter must be faced. I do not profess to have any authority to speak for any very general body of persons. I have simply received their complaints and learned their apprehensions; but, after all, the officers of the mercantile marine and the seamen are reasonable Englishmen, and I think they are quite competent to do as well upon the sea as any other body of seamen in the world. And, as other seamen have learnt new helm orders, the noble Earl anticipates that our seamen will. If care is taken that time is given, and that there is a free discussion which shall clarify the situation, and that proper obligations are put upon the shipowners as to the course to be taken with regard to the training of helmsmen, for my own part my anxieties on the matter would be, if not entirely removed, very substantially allayed. I thank the noble Earl.
§ On Question, Motion agreed to, and House in Committee accordingly: Bill reported without amendment.